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Basque Mythology (Original)

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Europa
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« Reply #105 on: May 23, 2008, 10:41:49 pm »

Briwnys

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Brig, that is a question I have wondered about myself. All of the advanced art and tool making comes from the Pyrenees. Why has nothing to match it been found in the Caucasus?

Briwnys

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« Reply #106 on: May 23, 2008, 10:43:50 pm »

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I like to imagine that Cro-Magnon Man came from Atlantis as well but his DNA: Y haplogroup F / mt haplogroup N belongs to the populations of the Middle East.

Here is a map where Cro-Magnon remains have been found:

http://www.wtisbury.mv.k12.ma.us/projects/7earlyweb/7-3earlymanweb/earlymanmaps/cro-magnon-map.html

And yet, interestingly enough, they have also been found on the Canary Islands:

http://www.grancanaria.com/patronato_turismo/1062.0.html

Cro-Magnon man actually much like modern man, but differed in that he had a slightly bigger brain.
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« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2008, 10:45:48 pm »

CRO-MAGNON MAP



Cro- Magnon remains are yellow on our map. Cro- Magnons were the Homo sapiens who looked most like what Homo sapiens look like today. Cro-Magnons evolved into modern day humans. They used fire to scare their prey into traps. They attacked animals near watering holes. They were the first humans to do art. They did cave art, the real reason why is unknown. The caves they painted were dark, cold, and damp, so they definitely didn't do cave art for fun. Cave art caves have been found mostly in southern France and northern Spain. Some famous cave art caves are Chauvet and Lascaux.
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« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2008, 10:49:07 pm »

 
Briwnys

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It's a nice map, Europa, but the information on it does not explain the origin of the people of the Atlantic Facade.

Haplogroup R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Western Europe. The frequency of R1b is highest along the Atlantic coast of Europe (up to 90% of Welsh, Irish, and Basque populations, for example), and declines as you move east. Haplogroup R1b probably originated in a group who wintered in what is now Spain during the last Ice Age and then moved north when the glaciers retreated 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.

These are the people who were once considered Celts but are now acknowledged as part of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH), people directly descended from the Cro-Magnon of the Iberian Peninsula.

This Brythonic type Y-DNA is identified by six markers, #19-388-390-391-392-393. The pattern 14-12-24-11-13-13 on these markers (plus or minus one or two steps) is what is known as the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH), a subset of the R1b haplogroup. In the British Isles, AMH is strongly associated with the people previously known as Celts, including English people with this Brythonic ancestry ("Anglo-Celts"). AMH consists of the 6 genetic markers, which have been found at high frequencies on the European Atlantic coast, such as Wales, Ireland, the Orkney Islands, and the Basque country. They also include the Sami and the Aesti of the Baltic, an area where descendants of the Cro-Magnon people from the Iberian Peninsula are know to have settled. It may have also included the Guanches of the Canary Islands.

Brythonic people such as the Welsh and Irish speak languages that are clearly Indo-European in origin (with many unique features), yet their Y-DNA is similar to that of the Basques. This suggests that the distant ancestors of the Celts in the British Isles were actually indigenous western Europeans who adopted an Indo-European language at some point in their history, probably as a result of trade, intermarriage, or conquest. In other words, the pre-Celtic Britons may have gradually "become" Celtic as a result of the military, economic, and cultural influence of Celtic people from the European continent.

It is also very clear that these Cro-Magnon people created the Magdalenian Culture around 14500 BCE, a culture that was highly advanced for that time. Their cave art and their tools attest to this sophistication. So, where did they come from? If the Caucasus was their home, why is no trace of this culture and its art and technology found there?

Briwnys

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« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2008, 10:51:40 pm »

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   posted 09-17-2006 10:04 PM                       
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Tree carvings depict Basque sheepherders
JESSE HARLAN ALDERMAN
Associated Press

FEATHERVILLE, Idaho - Some carvings are rousing political slogans. Others depict sexual exploits. And like modern graffiti, a great many merely note for posterity that Joe, Jose, or, most likely, Joxe, "was here."

As anthropologists have spent decades combing the red rock landscape of the Southwest for petroglyphs - the prehistoric scrawlings of American Indians - researchers in the Northwest are just beginning to discover a widening trove of arborglyphs - 19th and 20th century tree carvings by Basque sheepherders.

Scholars say the drawings provide a blueprint for Basque immigration patterns across the western United States and unlatch a window into the psyche of the solitary sheepherder.

"These give us insight into a group that largely did not leave behind a written word," said John Bieter, the executive director of the Cenarrusa Center for Basque Studies at Boise State University.

Basques hail from a semiautonomous region joining the Pyrenees of northern Spain and a slice of coastal territory in southern France. Basques are believed to be some of the oldest inhabitants of Europe.

On the heels of the California Gold Rush in 1850s, Basques who had already emigrated to South America followed the ore's elusive path across the West.

Basques quickly branched out to sheepherding, a common 19th century parallel to many of today's migrant labor options, Bieter said. Soon after, tree etchings began appearing in the alpine hollows of California, then Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming and other western states.

The legacies of men like Julio Ramon are etched into the bark. In an undated inscription from an aspen grove in the Boise National Forest, Ramon trumpets a rallying cry into the empty wilderness: "Gora ETA."

The phrase - roughly "Long Live ETA" - was a political maxim of the armed Basque separatist group known by the initials. It is most common in tree engravings among a second wave of sheepherders who likely lived in Spain under the nationalist dictator Francisco Franco, Bieter said.

"He could carve it into a tree in Idaho, but if he said it Spain, he'd be imprisoned," Bieter said.

Susie Osgood, a Forest Service archaeologist, said she has identified about 300 trees with Basque carvings. They are considered a cultural resource, like artifacts from Chinese mining camps and American Indian tent sites.

"It's a realistic window into what you think and do out here when you're all alone," she said. "Now, the herders have headsets and things, but in the 19th century, you were your own entertainment."

Over three days in mid-July, Bieter and students from his summer seminar catalogued dozens of arborglyphs for a database maintained by the Boise National Forest.

Basque sheepherders livened the hours of solitude by drawing and a great many tree carvings are crude sketches or a simple name and date.

"If you think about it, a lot of people write on toilet walls, sitting around with nothing better to do," student Nick Allex, 21, said while measuring and inscribing a patch of arborglyphs. "It's kind of the same concept."

In Idaho, Bieter has noticed explicit pictures and sexual themes as a common thread.

In an Idaho Aspen stand, a herder praises the mild weather, while also noting in graphic prose that no one short of a highly skilled prostitute could make him cheerier.

Some carvings also reveal a glimpse into the dormant angst harbored by many Basques against the herder's lowly social standing.

A few poetic verses on an Idaho aspen declare, in an imprecise translation, "Together, but not neighbors. Brothers, but not family. In Spain, they consider us great men, but here we are nothing."

Today, the Basque herder has largely been replaced to Peruvian or Chilean immigrants. Later generations of Basques - like Bieter's brother, Dave, who is the mayor of Boise - have planted roots in cities across the West.

But Kurt Caswell, who has written several magazine articles on modern sheepherders near McCall, Idaho, said the practice of inscribing trees has continued.

"One of the things that fascinates me is how little has changed," he said. "What it brings home to me is a universal story of immigration, that early generations really occupy a very lonely existence."

ON THE NET

Cenarrusa Center for Basque Studies: http://cenarrusa.org/

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/15178561.htm
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« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2008, 10:53:10 pm »

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It is also very clear that these Cro-Magnon people created the Magdalenian Culture around 14500 BCE, a culture that was highly advanced for that time. Their cave art and their tools attest to this sophistication. So, where did they come from? If the Caucasus was their home, why is no trace of this culture and its art and technology found there?
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That's a good question, Briwyns, where did they originally come from? I've heard evidence that the Indians along the coastline of North America share the same Haplogroup X as the peoples of the Atlantic coastline, but DNA evidence tends to become so outdated so quickly I'm hesitant to say it. And even that does not explain where the Basques came from originally. It would make no sense for them to travel all the way from the Middle East and than settle into Spain either.

The Basque myth claims that they have an Atlantis ancestry, and yet, I have never been able to locate the exact myth that resembles the Atlantis story. And I asked one of Georgeos' people (all of them, of course from Spain) about the Basque/Atlantis origin and, oddly enough, they don't seem to place a great deal of importance on the Basques. In fact, they claim that the Basque/Atlantis connection is only from the last two hundred years. I'm not certain how much I believe that either, though, these days, the Basques tend to have had some ill will generated towards them in Spain. It's a mystery.
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« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2008, 10:57:25 pm »

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   posted 09-17-2006 10:34 PM                       
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Two recent genetic reports concerning Haplogroup X:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1196/annals.1293.003?cookieSet=1&journalCode=nyas

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v73n5/40218/40218.html
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« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2008, 10:58:37 pm »

Mitochondrial DNA Variation in the Aboriginal Populations of the Altai-Baikal Region: Implications for the Genetic History of North Asia and America
ILIA A. ZAKHAROVaaVavilov Institute of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 119991 Russia, MIROSLAVA V. DERENKObbInstitute of Biological Problems of the North, Russian Academy of Sciences, Magadan, 685000 Russia, BORIS A. MALIARCHUKbbInstitute of Biological Problems of the North, Russian Academy of Sciences, Magadan, 685000 Russia, IRINA K. DAMBUEVAccInstitute of General and Experimental Biology, Russian Academy of Sciences, Ulan-Ude, 670047 Russia, CHODURAA M. DORZHUddTuva State University, Kyzyl, 667035 Russia AND SERGEY Y. RYCHKOVaaVavilov Institute of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 119991 RussiaaVavilov Institute of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 119991 Russia bInstitute of Biological Problems of the North, Russian Academy of Sciences, Magadan, 685000 Russia cInstitute of General and Experimental Biology, Russian Academy of Sciences, Ulan-Ude, 670047 Russia dTuva State University, Kyzyl, 667035 Russia
Address for correspondence: Ilia A. Zakharov, Vavilov Institute of General Genetics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 119991 Russia. Fax: 7-095-1328962. zakharov@vigg.ru
This work supported by grants from the Russian Foundation for Basic Research (Grant Nos. 00-15-97777 and 96-06-80430).

Abstract

Abstract:
 The discovery of mtDNA types common to Asians and Amerinds (types A, B, C, and D) forced investigators to search for those nations of Asia which, though not considered the ancestors of the Amerinds, have retained a close genetic resemblance with them. We collected samples and studied the gene pools of the Turkic-speaking nations of South Siberia: Altaians, Khakassians, Shorians, Tuvinians, Todjins, Tofalars, Sojots, as well as Mongolian-speaking Buryats. The data indicate that nearly all Turkic-speaking nations of Siberia and Central Asia, as well as the Buryats, have types A, B, C, and D in their gene pool. The highest total frequency of these types is observed in the Tuvinians and Sojots. They, as well as the Buryats, also have the lowest frequency of the europeoid types. The most mixed Asian-Europeoid gene pool examined turned out to be that of the Shorians. An important finding was the presence of type X in the Altaians, which had not yet been detected in Asia. As shown by computer analysis, this DNA sequence is not a late European admixture. Rather, the Altai variant X is ancient and can be close to the ancestral form of the variants of contemporary Europeans and Amerinds. The presented results prove that of all nations in Asia, the Turkic-speaking nations living between Altai and Baikal along the Sayan mountains are genetically closest to the Amerinds.

This article is cited by:
JC Barton, RT Acton, L Lovato, MR Speechley, CE McLaren, EL Harris, DM Reboussin, PC Adams, FW Dawkins, VR Gordeuk and AP Walker, for the Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload Screening Study Research Investigators. (2006) Initial screening transferrin saturation values, serum ferritin concentrations, and HFE genotypes in Native Americans and whites in the Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload Screening Study. Clinical Genetics 69:1, 4857
Abstract Abstract and References Full Text Article Full Article PDF

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1196/annals.1293.003?cookieSet=1&journalCode=nyas
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« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2008, 11:02:48 pm »

Boreasi

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   posted 09-18-2006 12:00 AM                       
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Not so mystic - the Berbers, Guanches and Basques were all branches of the Caucasians that spread throughout Eurasia, after ice-time. Thats why they all share into the gene-pool of the proto-Europeans, by some called the "Celtic" genotype.

Haplogroup X and U both seem to coincide with that spread-sheet. As said elsewhere the occurance of the X2 among the Navaho, Alonquian and Hopi indians have proved that even America was reached already at the end of ice-time...
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« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2008, 11:03:39 pm »

 
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Just a note for our new aquaitance, Robert C.


The Red Paint People

Red Ochre - was a color characteristic of the early North Sea fisher/gather population - already 8.000 years ago. Moreover it is found in textiles and chambers/mounds in distant places such as the Northern US, Scandinavia, the Baltics, Europe, Russia and NW China - already before the Neolithicum. Places like "Rauma", meaning "Red Land" are still found in Scandinavia and Finland - where the same genetics and language are still present.

In 1989 an American film-company, run by native American descendants, made a pioneering film which received due awards, called

"THE MYSTERY OF THE LOST RED PAINT PEOPLE".

"The film follows U.S., Canadian, and European scientists from the barrens of Labrador - where archaeologists uncover an ancient stone burial mound - to sites in the U.S., France, England, and Denmark, and to the vast fjords of northernmost Norway where monumental standing stones testify to links among seafaring cultures across immense distances.

This film represents the first publication in any medium that has synthesized these new discoveries and attempted to draw a picture of the northeastern sea peoples, whom scientists refer to as the Maritime Archaic."


http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/paint.html
http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/norse.html

[ 09-18-2006, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Boreasi ]
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« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2008, 11:04:27 pm »

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Originally posted by Briwnys:
It's a nice map, Europa, but the information on it does not explain the origin of the people of the Atlantic Facade.

Haplogroup R1b is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Western Europe. The frequency of R1b is highest along the Atlantic coast of Europe (up to 90% of Welsh, Irish, and Basque populations, for example), and declines as you move east. Haplogroup R1b probably originated in a group who wintered in what is now Spain during the last Ice Age and then moved north when the glaciers retreated 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.

These are the people who were once considered Celts but are now acknowledged as part of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH), people directly descended from the Cro-Magnon of the Iberian Peninsula.

This Brythonic type Y-DNA is identified by six markers, #19-388-390-391-392-393. The pattern 14-12-24-11-13-13 on these markers (plus or minus one or two steps) is what is known as the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH), a subset of the R1b haplogroup. In the British Isles, AMH is strongly associated with the people previously known as Celts, including English people with this Brythonic ancestry ("Anglo-Celts"). AMH consists of the 6 genetic markers, which have been found at high frequencies on the European Atlantic coast, such as Wales, Ireland, the Orkney Islands, and the Basque country. They also include the Sami and the Aesti of the Baltic, an area where descendants of the Cro-Magnon people from the Iberian Peninsula are know to have settled. It may have also included the Guanches of the Canary Islands.

Brythonic people such as the Welsh and Irish speak languages that are clearly Indo-European in origin (with many unique features), yet their Y-DNA is similar to that of the Basques. This suggests that the distant ancestors of the Celts in the British Isles were actually indigenous western Europeans who adopted an Indo-European language at some point in their history, probably as a result of trade, intermarriage, or conquest. In other words, the pre-Celtic Britons may have gradually "become" Celtic as a result of the military, economic, and cultural influence of Celtic people from the European continent.

It is also very clear that these Cro-Magnon people created the Magdalenian Culture around 14500 BCE, a culture that was highly advanced for that time. Their cave art and their tools attest to this sophistication. So, where did they come from? If the Caucasus was their home, why is no trace of this culture and its art and technology found there?

Briwnys
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You make a very interesting and well-educated point here. One thing that really struck me as very interesting is this: "Pasiegos are peculiar for their high frequencies of Y chromosomal markers (E-M81) with North African assignation, and Y chromosomal (R-SRY2627)" I find it very interesting that a rare haplogroup such as R1b1c6 (SRY2627) has a high frequency anywhere, but to have it in a region of northern Spain (Cantabria) with a haplotype that is derived from Northwestern Africa is baffling. This is definitely proving that SRY2627 is Iberian in origin in my opinion. The haplogroup may have actually originated in southern Iberia around 1,580 BC (around the height of Tartessos or Iberian Kingdoms)after breaking away from the more ancient Atlantic Modal Haplotype some 11,500 y.a. (perhaps mutating from SRY2627-C to SRY2627-T around this period, just a guess).

What brings SRY2627 (R1b1c6, R1b3f, or HG22)to the Canary Islands may also be a connection to Tartessos (near Huelva), as well the Phoenicians and the expansion of the Atlantic Trade-Exchange network in search of metals southwards. As well it can be found northwards as far to Britanny, Wales/Cornwall/Devon, and Southern Ireland. Tin, Silver, Lead would have. AMH and its subgrouping R1b1c6 is mostly found along the southwestern fringes of Europe. Interestingly for SRY2627 the numbers are somewhere in the vincinity of 4% for Galicia, 4% for the Canary Islands (El Hierro Island is a whopping 13% for such a small area and low pop), and around 3-4% for both Ireland and Britain. Even in Basque Country its around 11% and in Catalonian speaking regions around 22% overall. Both Catalonians (Iberians speaking a Romance language? Basques and as well the Tartessians/Andalusians were obviously great maritime or seafaring type of cultures being associated with the coastal regions of the Atlantic-Mediterranean.

In modern day Spain, the haplogroup seems to be most concentrated in the regions where Iberian was spoken (now Catalonia, Andalusia), and as well Cantabria and today's Basque Country. Undoubtedly R1bc6 (SRY2627) can be found in significant numbers in Aquitaine, and Brittany (but French laws are preventing the use of DNA testing for genealogical purposes as I'm aware).

I'm often wondering what connection AMH and SRY2627 have with the Bimbaches of El Hierro, and the Guanches of the Canary Islands. The close connection to Berbers is there I'm quite sure. Many sleepness nights trying to figure this stuff out. Of course the statement of Tactitus of the Silures and their atypical physical appearances as if coming from Spain, along with Magnus Maximus' connection to the legions of Caerleon and Hadrian's Wall (being from Spain himself, is a very prominent figure in Welsh history). Not to mention connected to the legends of King Arthur whether true or not.

Whew! Lot of writing...
 Smiley
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« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2008, 11:05:25 pm »

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Hi everyone. I;m sidi, i'm partly basque(gipuzkoa), partly chinese(macau), partly spanish(galicia, madrid), partly portuguese(lisboa), and at a minor extent, english too(sussex).

I've started learning basque a year ago not only because of my family (mostly in gipuzkoa-goierri area), but because i'm interested too in the relations between euskara and old iberian, and the possibilities of finding links in human history through them.

I really find fascinating the possibility of linking them with so many other variety of cultures such as kelts etc, but not as much as all the links that all you people found so far from the possibilities of different cultures all around the world related to atlantis.

Maybe through the studies of all those languages, like old mayans, etc, new research on what's already been found can be made in respect to it?

There are obviously so many links specially through all folk stories among basques, celts, and other pagan rites all around welsh, ireland, scotland, galicia, and a few more areas around, or course all these cultures were much more mixed in the past as they are now.

Thanks you all for all the research made so far, i hope one day the information we have about history of human being will take another direction and we'll understand so much more about where we really come from and where we're going, as so many of those so-called myths are so similar in these different cultures.

With all these research i can only but formulate one more question was it really only one culture that unified the atlantians, all together, later spread on the different assigned areas once the island dissapeared, or maybe there were varios groups of cultures each of them belonging to the different cultural patterns described above?

It might be more diversified that once first thought, i don't know it's just an idea.

Eskerrik asko Europa ikergaia ta azterbidearren, eta zure jakinduria euskal kultuaren edestian.

Ni euskal herriaren historia intereskidea naiz eta oso pozarren nago zure izkribuak irakurtzen dit.
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