To get us started, I will include the original discussion which originally took place at another forum:
rockessence
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posted 09-09-2005 01:50 AM
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Hi Artemis,
Check out
www.bocksaga.de and
www.bocksaga.com for a clear explanation of those who were later called "gods"....
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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17
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Anwndur
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Hi Artemis,
Perhaps they really were gods and goddesses, just like the Ancients said they were.
Tony
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Ordo Anno Mundi: Original Ancient Mysteries
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docyabut
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Artemus, some not all could a have been real people.The titans could have been based on a real tribe and in myth many stories were added to their characters.
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docyabut
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as gods:)
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Rich
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posted 09-09-2005 09:03 AM
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Artemus,
I think the gods were real humans. I think they interacted with real humans, and you can come up with time-frames for when they lived. I think a person who is a great boatsman could be named poseidon, or a great forge-man hephaestus.
In greek mythology, there are sur-names... which generally tell the parent of this god. Unfortunately, most story-telling drops these sur-names. Then these gods get merged.
Of course some of the stories are allegorical, but as you said, most myths are based on fact.
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KTCat
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posted 09-09-2005 09:45 AM
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I think that perhaps originally the gods must have been extraterrestrial and arrived on Earth as part of a life seeding mission. And then something went really wrong and they all got in a great big arguement about who was going to be boss. That arguement evolved into a war between the god systems which ultimately ended in the destruction of most of the early civilizations on earth. The early descendants of those gods were the "legacy" civilizations, the survivors of a pole flip; people who all believed they came from holy bloodlines. These became the kings and queens of most of our myths and one's status as a god was based upon the so called purity of one's bloodlines; the guy at the top of the dog-pile was almost always called a god. It's often used as a title of kingship in the texts, and kingship was all about bloodlines.
Some of that legacy civilization also seems to have kept their technological skills in tact while most surviving races were plunged back to the beginning again and were returned to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle by circumstance.
Except for the very earliest of tales, those who kept hold of their previous technological advances appear to have been only men who that used technology to "play god" over their fellow man. One thing becomes obvious in the ancient texts. "The gods", whoever they were, were for the most part no better or worse than human beings are today.
And I'll bet they all let farts.
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Artemis
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posted 09-12-2005 10:23 PM
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Thank you for your input, everyone. I am of the opinion that the gods might have been mortals who's efforts were exaggerated through time. Of course, I don't discount the extraterrestial angle either, anything is possible and I can see how aliens may have been mistaken for gods if they actually did visit the earth. I remember a Star Trek episode based on that very thing.
But were there ever any figures through history that also happened to have the names of these gods? Or are we simply reading the mythologies wrong and they are attempting to describe human figures, not gods..?
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Rich
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posted 09-12-2005 10:44 PM
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The First guy to use swords, might be called Hephaestus, the first to conquer by boat might be called Poseidon. A great astronomer might be called Atlas. There are many good articles along this line, told by phoenicians, greeks, etc... Trying to figure out who these people really were, and when they lived.
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cleasterwood
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posted 09-13-2005 03:41 AM
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Artemis,
Here's my take on the subject.
Some of the demi-gods were born onto the planet as real humans who reached the status of demi-god through their actions in life, which did get exaggarated over time. However, the gods were not humans, per say, but human spirits who after becoming more grounded in physical joy were transformed into physical human beings. These spirit-humans lived long lives, like Methusela(sp), which accounts for their god-like status and their ability to travel over the world and teach spirituality, which they were ordered to do by the All Father to allow them to return to the spirit form once their physical bodies died. The only exception to this would have been the All Father, who remained pure and didn't become grounded to the earthly experience.
It's a little more involved than that, but I've given the basics. Just my opinion on it.
Peace be with you,
Lynn
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docyabut
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Rich I mention this on another topic, it is strange that there are writings in Egypt, of how the old kingdom ended. There was mass starvation and in the writings people had to eat their children. A world wide climate change.
In greek myth Cronus leader of the Titians also was said to have eaten his childern to survive.This could be a clue to when the tribe of the Titans did excist.
At some time around 2300 BC, give or take a century or two, a large number of the major civilisations of the world collapsed, simultaneously it seems. The Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia, the Old Kingdom in Egypt, the Early Bronze Age civilisation in Israel, Anatolia and Greece, as well as the Indus Valley civilisation in India, the Hilmand civilisation in Afghanistan and the Hongshan Culture in China - the first urban civilisations in the world - all fell into ruin at more or less the same time.
A thousand years later, at around 1200 BC, many of the civilisations of the same regions again collapsed at about the same time. This time, disaster overtook the Myceneans of Greece, the Hittites of Anatolia, the Egyptian New Kingdom, Late Bronze Age Israel, and the Shang Dynasty of China.
This could have been in the period of time, when the Greeks forgot some of their history.
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docyabut
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Artrimus,also in greek myth( lost my link) when a women had twins by her husband, the frist twin was thought to be the son of a God. The gods came in the night in many different forms, such as cows, bulls, a horses, and doves. Maybe to as why there were so many named after the Gods. I know way out there but maybe when she dream of a certain animal, people identified it with a God.
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JC De La Torre
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In my fictional novel (now available hee, hee, hee), the Gods were ascended beings from another plane of existence (or dimension, if you will). In real life, I'd say the Gods were likely important early human figures in the history of man that were sensationalized into gods to help the humans cope with the loneliness of our existence.
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JC De La Torre
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cleasterwood
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posted 09-14-2005 03:32 AM
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Interesting JC. In my Novel in progress, I use what I mentioned above as an explanation.
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Smiley4554
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Well, even the Bible talks about "sons of God".
Remember, the children of the "sons of God" (i.e. angels) married human women & their "children" were "men of old" & "men of reknown". They are the ones we actually "remember".
I submit Genesis 6:
quote:
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1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal
; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
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Now, it says the Nephilim were on the earth at the same time the "sons of God" married human women & had children by them.
Many people pre-suppose that the children were the "Nephilim", but that is not what it is saying - at least in this particular instance.
Now, who were those "men of old" & "men of reknown"?
We have many myths that contain great deeds by men such as Hercules and Perseus to name just 2 of them.
Who were they? They were the "children" of the "gods" and human women. They possessed some of the powers of the "gods" (angels), and as such, could complete unbelievable tasks, yet they weren't fully "gods". Obviously the mixture of "gods" & humans "diluted" the powers.
So, the mythological "gods" were probably, and easily, the angels (fallen probably).
There is written and oral documentation of the beginning the world over, and in almost every case (with a few deviations), they are identical.
So, we know that these mythological "gods" were definitely real - they were not imagined.
And, we also know that all of this happened prior to the "Great Flood".
quote:
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11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
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This is a clear description that the Earth's inhabitants at the time were at war with each other, that there was corruption in the government, etc..
What's interesting to note is that He says that the "people" & "man" was corrupt. The Nephilim nor the "sons of God" are not mentioned within the context.
God was only upset @ having made mankind. So, guys, now we have another interesting thought.
What happened to them before, during & after the Flood?
Well, one myth has a place the "gods" went to called Mount Olympus - a place obviously far above that of humans. It has long been thought that it was somewhere "in the heavens".
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/olympus.html
quote:
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Mount Olympus, in Greek mythology, is the abode of the chief god Zeus. Also, the foremost gods of the Greek pantheon have their palaces at the summit. It is here that the gods assemble to consume nectar and ambrosia ("immortal"), the substances which reinforces their immortality. According to the myth, the top of the Olympus, which is covered in snow and hidden in the clouds, reaches all the way into the aether. It is the highest mountain of Greece and lies on the border of Macedonia and Thessaly.
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Could it have been in Greece, or is it possible it was not exactly a mountain?
So, exactly where could it have been? Off of the Earth, perhaps?
Where did the name come from in the first place?
(The following is for fun).
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970915.html
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/planet_volcano/mars/Shields/olympus_mons.html
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KTCat
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posted 09-15-2005 06:30 AM
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Smiley, if we look at texts like "Atrahasis" then it becomes clear that the gods must have been very close to where the Ark landed, so we may assume they must have been near Mt. Ararat. The texts describes the gods watching the destruction of mankind in the flood, and many of them, particularly the female gods are weeping, and they are horrified that they ever made the decision to flood the earth.
The goddess watched and wept,
midwife of the gods, wise Mami:
“Let daylight…
Let it return and…!
However could I, in the assembly of the gods,
have ordered such a destruction with them?
Ellil was strong enough to give a wicked
Order.
Like Tiruru he ought to have cancelled that
wicked order!
I heard their cry leveled at me,
against myself, against my person.
Beyond my control my offspring have become
like white sheep.
As for me, how am I to live in a house of
bereavement?
My noise has turned to silence.
Could I go away, up to the sky
And live as in a cloister?
What was Anu’s intention as decision-maker?
It was his command that the gods his sons
Obeyed.
He who did not deliberate, but sent the Flood,
He who gathered the people to catastrophe.
(Atrahasis III, Myths from Mesopotamia, Dalley, p. 32-33)
Many of the texts suggest that the gods take to the sky, leaving all of mankind but Noah Atrahasis to drown in the flood.
Where she sat weeping, there the great gods
sat too,
But like sheep, could only fill their windpipes
with bleating.
Thirsty as they were, their lips
discharged only the rime of famine.
For seven days and seven nights
The torrent, storm and flood came on.”
Noah/Atrahasis finally finds land, and his first act is to provide a sacrifice; a burnt offering giving thanks to the gods.
The gods smelt the fragrance,
Gathered like flies over the offering.
When they had eaten the offering,
Nintu got up and blamed them all,
“Whatever came over Anu who makes the
decisions?
Did Ellil dare to come for the smoke offering?
Those two who did not deliberate, but sent
The Flood,
Gathered the people to catastrophe—
You agreed the destruction.”
They must have been watching Noah/Atrahasis land the ark at Mt. Ararat. In fact, it sounds like Noah, who had a boatload of animals, had the only food around and the gods were literally starving until he provides food for them.
Maybe Mt. Olympus and Mt. Ararat were one and the same place.
[ 09-15-2005, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: KTCat ]
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Smiley4554
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http://www.alternativearchaeology.org/html/atrahasis.html
I looked it up, and indeed, it sounds almost exactly the same.
The meaning of "cloister" is
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741500194/Cloister.html
quote:
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Cloister
Encyclopedia Article
Edit this article
Cloister, enclosed courtyard around which the ecclesiastical buildings of a church or monastery are arranged. A cloister is generally square or rectangular, open to the sky at its center and bordered by a covered walk on all sides. The cloister is customarily placed against the long south side of the church, fitting into the angle formed by the nave and transept areas of the church. Cloisters were also often built into medieval colleges such as the one at Magdalen College at the University of Oxford in Oxford, England.
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I found that an interesting "thought". Today, we say things like "well, what do you want me to do? Live in a glass bubble?"
But, the fact that he preceed it with
quote:
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Could I go away, up to the sky
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makes me think that he was "wishing" that he could do it.
Hmmmm.....I just thought of something.
You know, there is an ancient legend of a place called "Shangi La".
Based upon a myth,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shambhala
quote:
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In Tibetan Buddhist tradition, Shambhala (or Shambala) is a mystical kingdom hidden somewhere beyond the snowpeaks of the Himalayas. It is mentioned in various ancient texts including the Kalachakra and the ancient texts of the Zhang Zhung culture which pre-dated Tibetan Buddhism in western Tibet. The Bon scriptures speak of a closely-related land called Olmolungring.
The Kalachakra indicates that when the world declines into war and greed, and all is lost, a King of Shambhala will emerge from the secret city with a huge army to conquer evil and herald the Golden Age. Some suggest this king may be Kalki, a similar figure.
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Sounds a little familiar? And, it sounds as if this place is exactly what is described by Atrahasis.
It is thought that Sutlej Valley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutlej_Valley
is the location of this mythological place.
Could this myth also be associated?
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