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Pillars of Hercules

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Question: Where is The Pillars of hercules?  (Voting closed: April 12, 2007, 05:22:48 pm)
Greece-libya - 0 (0%)
thyrennia-egypt - 0 (0%)
gibraltar - 4 (80%)
malta-carthege - 0 (0%)
tunisia -Sicily - 1 (20%)
Total Voters: 4

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Author Topic: Pillars of Hercules  (Read 4131 times)
julia
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« on: April 02, 2007, 05:22:48 pm »

PILLARS OF HERACLES - LOCATION

Plato wrote of the Grecian islands:

"Many great deluges have taken place .... the consequence is that, in comparison of what then was, there are remaining in small islets only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, all the richer and softer parts of the soil having fallen away, and the mere skeleton of the country being left."

Obviously, these "bones" ARE the "many islands" of the Mediterranean. I leave it to the geologists to tell us how long Thera has been "above" water. Plato certainly may have meant at least the Cyclades here, since they paralleled the Minoan culture archaeologically (similar style of pottery, etc.) Plato states that there was an impassable barrier of mud for some time which prevented voyageurs from sailing to the OCEAN, i.e.some other large connected body of water. There is no evidence that Plato meant the present Atlantic Ocean. Indeed he did not. The ancients did not know that world was round, nor did they have a world globe on their desks. What was the "Atlantic" to them?

LANDS WITHIN THE PILLARS

It is known that Libya, Egypt, Tyrrhenia and Greece were ALL within the Columns of Herakles. The "pillars of Herakles", given the limits of Libya (surely similar geographically to modern Libya) and Terrine (Thera), were thus at the "bottleneck" of the Mediterranean between today's Tunisia and the island of Sicily. Many presume Plato's Libya referred to all of the north-African coast, but there is no evidence for this. Hence, the pillars of Herakles in my opinion were either between Tunisia and Sicily (this presumes that some of the Mediterranean in this area "sank" through earthquakes and tectonic plate activity at the time of Santorini's eruption) or that the only entrance at the time to the East half of the Mediterranean were Straits of Messina.

GADES (HADES, GATES) Tartessus = Carthage

Gades is near the Pillars of Heracles. Is this in Spain or elsewhere? Plato writes: [Atlas's] twin brother...obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, as far as the country which is still called the region of Gades [Hades, Gates]... in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus. Spain was not intended, but rather the Sicilian Isole EGADI (= Gades) at the Western "extremity" of the island of Sicily, which in fact is across from Tunis. Hence ancient Tartessus (which was written in Phoenician as Kart-hadasht) was actually the predecessor city to Carthage on the other side of the Strait of Sicily. Plato reported that Tartessus was at the Pillars of Herakles. Mount Etna - the highest active volcano in Europe - is on Sicily, so this is a highly volatile volcanic region. If Thera exploded in 1628 BC, perhaps the region around Etna was also active at this time, since the neolithic culture there ended there sometime around 2000 BC - which could well have been 1628 BC.

Regarding Atlantis Elephants and a Continent
Which "Surrounds" the Ocean

Plato notes that were elephants on the island...in the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory... Obviously, this refers to Africa. The "island" outside the pillars of Herakles was the rest of Africa (BUT excluding Libya) Indeed, Carthage was later a city in the region of modern Tunisia from which Hannibal and his elephants came. So pre-Carthage Tartessus was at one of the pillars. Plato wrote further: "The island was larger than Libya and Asia together and was the way to the other islands, and from these islands you might pass through the whole of the opposite continent which surrounds the true ocean; for this sea which is within the straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surround land may be most truly called a continent."

Crete and Cyrenaica

As one can read from the Encylopaedia Britannica under "Libya", the ancient Greeks affiliated Libya with that part of Africa "within" the Pillars of Herakles occupied by a tribe living in Cyrenaica, a region later affiliated with Crete and more or less close to the later location of Carthage. The "continent" referred to is the rest of Africa and Europe "outside" the Pillars of Herakles since these"surround the true ocean" - so that the land of Atlantis "surrounded" the "ocean" - which can then not be the Atlantic and this CAN ONLY BE the West half of the Mediterranean outside of a line running from Tunisia to Sicily.

Gadira = Cossyra = Pantelleria Island Magna Grande

According to Pseudo-Apollodorus, as a tenth labour Herakles was ordered to fetch the kine of Geryon from Erythia....Gadira... and set foot in Libya. Proceeding to Tartessus he erected as tokens of his journey two pillars [these were clearly obelisks] over against each other. Pantelleria Island, called Cossyra (Gadira?) by the Latins, is the tiny island in the Straight of Sicily and home of the Magna Grande, an extinct crater, though underwater eruptions near the island took place as recently as 1891, and "hot mineral springs and fumaroles testify to continued volcanic activity". The island is in a "strategic situation in the narrow passage separating the eastern and western Mediterranean".

The Mediterranean Sea

The Encyclopaedia Britannica writes prophetically: "The Mediterranean Sea is a remnant of the Thethy Sea, which formerly girdled the Eastern Hemisphere. The continental shelves are relatively narrow. The widest, off the Gulf of Gabes (compare to Gades) on the eastern coast of Tunisia, extends 170 miles .... [underwater outward from the shore]"

"The whole Mediterranean basin is tectonically active and earthquakes are common..... A submarine ridge between the island of Sicily and the African coast divides the Mediterranean Sea into eastern and western parts". This ridge is "submerged". Maps of the Mediterranean indicate that much of the distance between Tunisia and Sicily could once have been land. WHEN was the ridge between Sicily and the African coast submerged? At the explosion of Thera??? It is possible. The Encyclopaedia Britannica writes: "The floor of the Mediterranean consists of sediments made up of lime, clay, and sand, under which is blue mud."

On the evidence of the stone megaliths on Malta, which archaeologists say were constructed by prehistoric man - we must presume that Malta (as also Sardinian type tombs on Pantelleria Island) was once accessible by land, there being no evidence of seaworthy ships in neolithic times to get the settlers to the island to build these sites. Moreover, Malta is famous for wagon tracks in solid rock which just "end" at the edge of one of the Maltese cliffs. Did the rest of the island just "drop" into the ocean - around 1628 BC? The answer might be yes. This would explain why neolithic archaeological remains on Malta show pottery "that seems to be related to that of contemporary eastern Sicily".
The Britannica writes: "This culture came to a sudden end about 2000 BC".

 

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nikas
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 12:51:57 pm »

Julia, wellcome to this forum. Are you the same julia that debates with George at Atlantis rising?

Your analogy is nothing more than the summary of my work:

http://www.superatlantis.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/plato_essay.pdf

and if you wonder how it looked have a look athis image:




NIKAS
WWW.SUPERATLANTIS.COM
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julia
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 08:25:21 am »

Dear Nikas:
According to Platos describtions  Pillars of hercules is In the Gibraltar.besides such a Big Island Only could be there and there  are old maps about this Island(or peninsula )near Gibraltar..This island slowly sank I think(in 9000 years and then cadiz remained as city of Atlantis.. In the Middle of Mediterrenean is too narrow place to be Atlantis.
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nikas
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2007, 07:43:11 pm »

Dear Nikas:
According to Platos describtions  Pillars of hercules is In the Gibraltar.besides such a Big Island Only could be there and there  are old maps about this Island(or peninsula )near Gibraltar..This island slowly sank I think(in 9000 years and then cadiz remained as city of Atlantis.. In the Middle of Mediterrenean is too narrow place to be Atlantis.


can you show me where excatly plato says that? Where exactly a big island can be in gibraltar? Has to be on the iside ok?
Read plato carefully, in greek check the dimensions and come and talk to me again....
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Danaus
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« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2007, 10:04:39 pm »

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/3E*.html
There are some who transfer hither both the Planctae and the Symplegades, because they believe these rocks to be the pillars which Pindar calls the "gates of Gades" when he asserts that they are the farthermost limits reached by Heracles.157 And Dicaearchus, too, and Eratosthenes and Polybius and most of the Greeks represent the Pillars as in the neighbourhood of the strait. But the Iberians and Libyans say that the Pillars are in Gades, for the regions in the neighbourhood of the strait in no respect, they say, resemble pillars. Others say that it is the bronze pillars of eight cubits in the temple of Heracles in Gades, whereon is inscribed the expense incurred in the construction of the temple, that are called the Pillars; and those people who have ended their voyage with visiting these pillars and sacrificing to Heracles have had it noisily spread abroad that this is the end of both land and sea. Poseidonius, too, believes this to be the most plausible account of the matter,158 but that the oracle and the many expeditions from Tyre are a Phoenician lie.159 Now, concerning the expeditions, what could one affirm with confidence as to their falsity of the trustworthiness when neither of the two opinions is contrary to reason? But to deny that the isles or p139the mountains resemble pillars, and to search for the limits of the inhabited world or of the expedition of Heracles at Pillars that were properly so called, is indeed a sensible thing to do; for it was a custom in early times to set up landmarks like that. For instance, the people of Rhegium set up the column — a sort of small tower — which stands at the strait;160 and opposite this column there stands what is called the Tower of Pelorus.161 And in the land about midway between the Syrtes there stand what are called the Altars of the Philaeni.162 And mention is made of a pillar placed in former times on the Isthmus of Corinth, which was set up in common by those Ionians who, after their expulsion from the Peloponnesus, got possession of Attica together with Megaris, and by the peoples163 who got possession of the Peloponnesus; they inscribed on the side of the pillar which faced Megaris, "This is not the Peloponnesus, but Ionia," on the other, "This is the Peloponnesus, not Ionia."164 Again, Alexander set up altars,165 as limits of his Indian Expedition, in the farthermost regions reached by him in Eastern India, thus imitating Heracles and Dionysus. So then, this custom was indeed in existence.

p141 6 More than that, it is reasonable for place where a landmark is to take on the same appellation, and especially after time has once destroyed the landmark that has been set up. For instance, the Altars of the Philaeni no longer remain, yet the place has taken on the appellation. In India, too, there are no pillars, it is said, either of Heracles or of Dionysus to be seen standing, and, of course, when certain of the places there were spoken of or pointed out to the Macedonians,166 they believed to be Pillars those places only in which they found some sign of the stories told about Dionysus or of those about Heracles. So, in the case of Gades, too, one might not disbelieve that the first visitors used, so to speak, "hand-wrought" landmarks — altars or towers or pillars — setting them up in the most conspicuous of the farthermost places they came to (and the most conspicuous places for denoting both the ends and beginnings of regions are the straits, the mountains there situated,167 and the isles), and that when the hand-wrought monuments had disappeared, their name was transferred to the places — whether you mean thereby the isles, or the capes that form the strait. For this is a distinction now hard to make — I mean to which of the two we should attach the appellation — because the term "Pillars" suits both. I say "suits" because both are situated in places of a sort that clearly suggest the ends; and it is on the strength of this fact that the strait has been called a "mouth," — not only this strait, but several others as well: that is, as you sail in, the mouth is the beginning, and, as you sail out, the end. Accordingly, it would not be foolish for one to liken to pillars the isles at the mouth, since they have p143the attributes of being both sharp of outline and conspicuous as signs; and so, in the same way, it would not be foolish to liken to pillars the mountains that are situated at the strait, since they present just such a prominent appearance as do columns or pillars. And in this way Pindar would be right in speaking of the "gates of Gades," if the pillars were conceived of as at the mouth; for the mouths of straits are like gates. But Gades is not situated in such a geographical position as to denote an end; rather it lies at about the centre of a long coastline that forms a bay. And the argument that refers those pillars which are in the temple of Heracles at Gades to the Pillars of Heracles is less reasonable still, as it appears to me. For it is plausible that the fame of the name "Pillars of Heracles" prevailed because the name originated, not with merchants, but rather with commanders, just as in the case of the Indian pillars; and besides that, "the inscription"168 which they speak of, since it does not set forth the dedication of a reproduction169 but instead a summary of expense, bears witness against the argument; for the Heracleian pillars should be reminders of Heracles' mighty doings, not of the expenses of the Phoenicians.
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Danaus
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 01:15:36 pm »

P. Vergilius Maro, Aeneid, line 243[262] ‘Protei columnas’ on the analogy of “Herculis columnae,” for the extremity of Egypt. For Proteus see Od. 4. 351 foll., and for the rationalized form ...
perseus.uchicago.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0055:book=11:card=243

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999%2e04%2e0055&query=id%3d%2333
Nägelsbach (quoted by Buchholz, Hom. Real. iii. 1. § Cool connects the myth of Atlas with the western voyages of the Phaenician traders beyond the pillars of Hercules, who jealously concealed (cp. Kalupsô = the concealer) the distant sources of their wealth from other voyagers. He sees in the epithet oloophrôn an allusion to the greediness and piracies of this seafaring folk. Atlas, with Calypso, in the West will then answer to Proteus and Eidothea ( Od.4. 384 foll.) in the East, and we may compare the Protei columnae (Virg. Aen. 11. 262) with the Herculis columnae at the Straits of Gibraltar.

*********
Note: Pliny refers to "columnae" as islands off of Africa.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 02:58:01 pm by Danaus » Report Spam   Logged
Mark of Australia
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2007, 06:54:22 am »

This poll seems to be the most unanimous out of them all  -....( apart from Nikas with his Tunisia/Sicily)
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Danaus
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2007, 10:15:53 pm »

I vote Egypt (polling closed already).
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Mark of Australia
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2007, 10:24:25 pm »

That's a little lame if the polling is already closed.


Egypt ??  interesting ,how do you reach that conclusion Danaus?


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Danaus
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2007, 11:07:39 pm »

http://www.franckgoddio.org/sitemap/Project/ProjectArticel.aspx?ProjectName=CanopicRegion&Layout=C&XmlDocument=0013.xml

http://www.franckgoddio.org/sitemap/Project/ProjectArticel.aspx?ProjectName=CanopicRegion&Layout=C&XmlDocument=0014.xml

http://www.franckgoddio.org/sitemap/Project/ProjectArticel.aspx?ProjectName=CanopicRegion&Layout=C&XmlDocument=0015.xml

http://www.franckgoddio.org/sitemap/Project/ProjectArticel.aspx?ProjectName=CanopicRegion&Layout=B&XmlDocument=0005.xml

This temple existed in the days of Plato, but did it exist in the days of Solon?  It is mentioned by Herodotus as pre-dating Alexander 1(500BC).  I am trying to link this temple of Heracles(Khonsu) to the pillars of Heracles.  Herodotus calls this city "Taucheria"(sp?), or a greek word meaning Salty Fish.
**********
I have the pillars of Proteus existing around here.

Also, in the artistic drawing, this temple appears on an island.  I am trying to link this with the islands off of Africa, which Pliny calls: "columnae" (pillars).

This western branch of the nile was called Heraclean Mouth of the Nile by Skylax(500BC).  Additionally, he calls this branch of the nile, the "boundary of LIBYA and ASIA".

At one time, this region was called "Gauti" or "pi-gauti".  It's not Gadir, but it's not too far off either.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 11:46:33 pm by Danaus » Report Spam   Logged
Jaime Manuschevich
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WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2007, 05:18:35 pm »

I have studied these three possibilities:

Tiran/Eilat
Suez
And Bab el Mandeb

The first option seems more possible to me because it is near the Egyptian world, and there exists Kadesh Bernea in its proximities (Gadeiro), in addition that the narrow ocean takes that soon disappeared.


http://www.laatlantida.cl
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Jaime Manuschevich
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2007, 06:07:11 pm »

Here I send an image of the possible Straits.



Sorry. No up...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0LALFKLS
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 08:59:14 pm by Elric » Report Spam   Logged

Jaime Manuschevich
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« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 06:41:45 pm »

Hi Jaime ,

Check out the how to post pics thread in messages
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julia
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2007, 07:34:32 pm »

Dear Mr.Manuschevich;
I like to see you here, and to speak with you here without being exposed to abuse and fight by some arrogant moron.welcome to this forum..
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Elric
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2007, 09:05:50 pm »

Welcome to the forum, Jaime, I hope you find the forum both entertaining and enlightening. 

I looked into why your picture didn't post and the link took me to a webpage, but not one for a picture.

Here are the steps towards posting pictures if you are interested:

1. Right click on the picture.

2. A menu pops up, and the bottom choice is one that says, "properties."  You'll want to select that.

3. In the Properties Box that pops up afterwards, in the middle of the box is an item that says Address (URL).

4. Right Click on that and another menu box pops up.  Hit "select all."  The URL address should now be higlighted, then hit "okay."

5. Right click yet another time and this time, choose, "copy," once again, hit "okay."

6.  Next, paste the URL address in your post and highlight it.  This is done by dragging your cursor across the URL address.

7. Above the smiley icons are an array of buttons. Click on the second one on the bottom row, which looks like a framed picture, in blue and green.

URL tags (IMG) should now surround the URL address.

8.  Hit, "post," at the bottom of your post.


The picture should now be in your post and look something like this:




« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 09:07:46 pm by Elric » Report Spam   Logged
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