Ancient South America & It's Connection to Atlantis (Original)

[Morrison]

Morrison

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   posted 02-05-2006 04:29 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Herr_Saltzman:
Atlantis was close to the Straits of Gibraltar.

"in front of the Straits which are by you called the Pillars of Herakles"

The Americas are not in front of the straits. And yes, it is in front of, and not beyond. That alone disproves any Atlantis-in-America theory.

BTW, George, how did you make your website?
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Herr Saltzman, until you can find verbiage that contradicts these passages:


quote:
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1 For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, Jowett

For it is related in our records how once upon a time your state stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, Bury

Our records tell how your city checked a great power which arrogantly advanced from its base in the Atlantic ocean Lee
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Oh, and until you have the benefit of working from Plato's originals (which, I understand are not even in existence any longer), I wouldn't attach too much importance on PRO TOU STOMATOS. Near as I can tell, there was a space of some 1400 years from when Plato first wrote those details and when copies of Critias were re-discovered back in the 10th century. Plenty of times for errors to occur.

I would also like to add my earlier point that the ancients had no way of knowing where Atlantis' position actually was in the first place since by this time it had been sunk for thousands of years. With all our technology, we still don't know where Tartessos was. The Greeks would not have known either, unless they'd invented scuba-diving and we haven't known about it.

[ 02-05-2006, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Morrison ]
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Posts: 391 | From: New England | Registered: Oct 2004   

[Morrison]

Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 02-05-2006 05:06 PM                   
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The more errors you have to account for, the less you have Atlantis.

The text says "PRO TOU STOMATOS" which means "in front of the Straits". Atlantis was close to Gibraltar. Something can have its base in the Atlantic and still be in front of Gibraltar.

The Bolivian Altiplano, on the other hand, is closer to the Pacific than the Atlantic.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Posts: 1245 | From: Vienna, Austria | Registered: Sep 2005   

[Morrison]

Morrison

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   posted 02-05-2006 07:33 PM                       
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You don't know the exact wording of the text, or Atlantis' position in the ocean or even what era it existed in unless you have the original text, Herr Saltzman.

While you're eager to accept PRO TOU STOMATOS as Atlantis' exact position in the ocean, you're treating the text more liberally by making Atlantis a peninsula, not an island as well as apparently setting it in a more recent time frame (anything prior to 9000 years bc).

The South American theory need not play any of those ridiculous word games, or explain anything away. With it, we have the benefit of Atlantis actually being a large island in the Atlantic Ocean, with the geography fitting Plato's descriptions to a tee, and evidence of ancient civilizations to be found everywhere (Morocco just has Lixus).

We also have two growing seasons, an area sheltered from the northern winds, orichalcum, as well as clear contact between South America and Egypt (cocoa leaves found with Egyptian mummies).

South America was Atlantis, it's the most sensible solution, but believe what you like.
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Posts: 391 | From: New England | Registered: Oct 2004  |

[Morrison]

Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 02-05-2006 07:53 PM                   
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I'm not saying that Atlantis was a peninsula. I'm just saying it was close to Gibraltar. That is irrefutable.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Posts: 1245 | From: Vienna, Austria | Registered: Sep 2005   

[Morrison]

Morrison

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   posted 02-05-2006 08:18 PM                       
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And, if the text actually said, "close to Gibraltar," you might have something, and yet it says, "before" not "close to," and therein lies the distinction.
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Posts: 391 | From: New England | Registered: Oct 2004   

[Morrison]

St. Francis of Assisi

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Rate Member   posted 02-05-2006 09:23 PM                   
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Distinction? Please, tell me the distinction.

I am "before the computer". If I was in China, I would not be "before the computer." I am close to the computer. If I was not close to it, I would not be "before" it. Get it?

So it does say "close to".

(Herr Saltz)

[ 02-05-2006, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: St. Francis of Assisi ]

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If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it.

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[Morrison]

Talya

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   posted 02-05-2006 11:26 PM                       
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I wonder if there is any Atlantis theory that completely conforms to Plato's account.

George, thank you for that information to me about the route they would have taken to get to the Atlantic. I'm not at all familiar with the geography of South America. I did look on a map, though and it looks like the Madeiras River starts around Bolivia and empties into the Amazon, the mouth of which drains into the Atlantic. Do you think that a sea-faring people could have used this way, too?
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[Morrison]

Tom Hebert1
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  posted 02-06-2006 10:33 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Morrison:
And, if the text actually said, "close to Gibraltar," you might have something, and yet it says, "before" not "close to," and therein lies the distinction.
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Morrison,

On this point I would agree with you. We went through this whole song-and-dance routine with Georgeos. I think its a mistake to pick apart every single word of Plato when the reliability of the manuscripts we have today is in question. Some scholars even speculate that our current versions of Timaeus and Critias are derived from Arabic!

On top of that we have to consider that prepositions have multiple meanings in all languages. It is intellectually dishonest to focus on one's favorite definition of a word at the expenses of all others.
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[Morrison]

George Erikson
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   posted 02-06-2006 11:20 AM                       
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Talya,

It's odd but the Peruvian/Bolivian Andes are at the western end of the widest part of So. America, yet most of the Andean rivers drain to the east. At high elevations (Machu Picchu) these raging rivers are not navigable, but they swiftly descend to become more gently flowing feeders of the Amazon, and eventually lead to the Atlantic.
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Posts: 572 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Aug 2002

[Morrison]

Morrison

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   posted 02-07-2006 12:17 AM                       
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quote:
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On top of that we have to consider that prepositions have multiple meanings in all languages. It is intellectually dishonest to focus on one's favorite definition of a word at the expenses of all others.
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Good point, Tom, and I couldn't have said it better myself. It is intellectually dishonest to focus on one's favorite definition to the expense of all others.

Taking Plato literally, you have a massive tropical island complete with elephants, tall mountains, a city with concentric circles, two growing seasons and the like. You don't try to make Atlantis a peninsula when it's supposed to be larger than Libya and Asia combined. Even if we substitute "greater" (which I doubt), the bare bones civilizations found in either Spain or Morocco don't fit those desriptions. Logic follows that Atlantis would have had to be something truly special for Plato to write about it, someplace distant, and very wealthy.
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Posts: 391 | From: New England | Registered: Oct 2004   

[Morrison]

Talya

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   posted 02-07-2006 12:44 AM                       
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Hi George, well, Machu Picchu is to the west of Bolivia, so if the rivers drain to the east, into the Amazon and the Atlantic, they could have got to the ocean that way? It seems a roundabout way for a group of people, but it sounds like it could be done, especially if they're sea-farers.

Do you know of any reason why they couldn't have gone straight through to the Atlantic, using the Madeiras River?
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[Morrison]

George Erikson
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   posted 02-07-2006 10:50 AM                       
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Talya,

I mentioned Machu Picchu because I am familiar with the Urubamba River, which flows swiftly past this site. I am also familiar with the Rio Negro near Manaus. I don't know the Madeira River but just looking at a map it seems the likely route out of Boliva. Of course, everything flows into the Amazon. I've had enough experience with rivers to know that just looking at a map tells you very little about what is passable what is not.

www.AtlantisInAmerica.com
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Posts: 572 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Aug 2002 

[Morrison]

oscar

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Rate Member   posted 02-07-2006 01:28 PM                       
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People, you ought to READ previous pages, I have said South America was completely different thousands of years ago. You're willing to accept great extension of land sank but imagine the continents were like today??

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inca

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[Morrison]

Talya

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   posted 02-08-2006 10:48 PM                       
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Hi George, I haven't been able to find much about the Madeiras River myself, but what I did find didn't seem to disqualify it as a passage at least:

Madeira, river, Bolivia and Brazil
Madeira (mədā`rə), river, c.2,100 mi (3,380 km) long, formed by the junction of the Beni and Mamoré rivers on the Bolivia-Brazil border. It flows north along the border for c.60 mi (100 km), then northeast in a winding course through the Rondônia and Amazonas sections of NW Brazil into the Amazon River. At its mouth is Ilha Tupinambaranas, an extensive marshy region formed by the Madeira's distributaries. The river receives numerous tributaries from the southeast and is navigable by ocean vessels to the falls and rapids near Pôrto Velho, Brazil. There the Madeira-Mamoré RR begins a 227 mi (365 km) run around the unnavigable section to Guajará-Mirim on the Mamoré River.

http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Madeiras
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[Morrison]

Talya

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   posted 02-08-2006 10:50 PM                       
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In what way was the geography different, Oscar?
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Posts: 122 | Registered: Jan 2006  |