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An Inconvenient Truth

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19Merlin69
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« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2007, 06:37:16 pm »

Merlin,

The whole issue I had with your earlier statement (which is a valid one if we are to realize the need to be factual) was that the flat earth theory was something that science was putting forth. It was not.  As you know, science is an ever-evoliving process that changes it's theories put forth when new information arises.

But science did adopt the theory for awhile.  Are you intentionally ignoring what I'm saying?

This differs from faith-based beliefs concerning the world, that remain intransigent no matter what new information presents itself.  The names you mentioned earlier (bishops and monks) certainly fall in the latter category.

Oi vey...  This is like beating my head against a wall...  Those GUYS WERE CONSIDERED SCIENTISTS!  Aside from just the flat-earth, they had other writings, concepts and theories that were adopted by the mainstream scientific community then - and - later.  Just because THOSE guys also adopted a position that was unpopular does not make them un-scientists.  Look at Einstein - he offered a very "un-scientific" theory (Cosmological Constant) that was meant to maintain his belief in GOD, but it did not revoke his position as a scientist.

Sure, we can move on, but I hope that the point isn't going to be that science believed all sorts of nutty things in the past.

But they have, and that was the point!  To say otherwise is to ignore history.  As a scientist, I fully embrace the fact that we have been entirely retarded at times.  Still, to this day, we make silly "common sense" mistakes.

Humanity has certainly believed in a lot of strange things in the past, but they were mostly along the lines of supersitition and prejudice, science has certainly had nothing to do with them.  Science actually has a history of being generally conservative about the things they believe in and choose to accept.

Oh my god (of physics) that statement does not track with history at all.  Please Jason, let's not go there in this thread.  Go to the science forum and start a new thread - I'll be happy to trot out all of the utter nonsense that "Science" has believed and scientists have proffered for the past 3,000 years.  Truth is stranger than fiction - I promise you.
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« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2007, 12:24:09 am »

Quote
But science did adopt the theory for awhile.  Are you intentionally ignoring what I'm saying?

No, I just don't believe in what you're saying because it isn't the truth. Following the first century, the main proponents of the flat earth theory were from the church. You are suggesting they were scientists, which is simply not the case.

Quote
Oi vey...  This is like beating my head against a wall...  Those GUYS WERE CONSIDERED SCIENTISTS!


Wrong again, they were considered "theologians."  And as for beating your head against the wall, join the club.  I have just explained to you that all the people you cited doing the writings were bishops, monks, and Christian theorists. You continue to ignore it even though I even also supplied proof.  I don't know where the disconnect here is, but I'm getting a bit tired of saying it.

Quote
But they have, and that was the point!  To say otherwise is to ignore history.  As a scientist, I fully embrace the fact that we have been entirely retarded at times.  Still, to this day, we make silly "common sense" mistakes.

Science has hypthesized things in the past that later were proven not to be true, with more information.  It never said that the world was flat, that (and most similar beliefs) are the work of theology and superstition, not science.

Quote
I'll be happy to trot out all of the utter nonsense that "Science" has believed and scientists have proffered for the past 3,000 years. 


Well, that would be diffilcult since most of the major sciences are less than 2000 years old.  Anything you couild trot out, Merlin, would not be relevant anyway.  As I have said many times during this discourse, science evolves and changes many times as new information presents itself.  Religion is the one that remains stubbornly resistant to change. Is science holding onto beliefs that might be outdated?  Well, of course, sometimes it does take awhile to overturn current scientific theory, but I haven't seen anything that would overturn the current consensus on global warming, other than wishful thinking by a lot of people who don't want it to be true.
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« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2007, 01:44:02 am »

Film:
An Inconvenient Truth
Former Vice-President Al Gore wants people to wake up to the serious dangers of global warming and actively change their lifestyles to become more environmentally conscientious. He makes a whopping impact for his case by unleashing some sobering facts and statistics about the ramifications of dumping carbon dioxide into the Earth’s environment in his hot button film documentary An Inconvenient Truth. The buzz on this film has exploded like a meteor. Recently his wife, Tipper Gore, quipped about the sudden change in her husband’s media rising profile: “I went to sleep with a recovering politician and woke up with a movie star.”

Climate scientists back up Gore’s concepts; the science is correct. “The whole key for us is learning about global warming and become a conscious consumer,” said Gore. So strong is this impassioned environmental crusader that 100% of the profits from his film and eponymous titled book will go to a non-profit bipartisan effort to support bold action to confront global warming.

British Physicist Stephen Hawking, author of the world wide best seller “A Brief History of Time” has done ground breaking research on black holes and the origins of the universe. He noted to the Associated Press in Hong Kong, “Life on Earth is at the ever-increasing risk of being wiped out by a disaster, such as a sudden global warming, nuclear war, a genetically engineered virus or other dangers we have not yet thought of.”. He feels if we as a human race want to continue to survive for generations, we need to find new homes like space settlements that can continue without support from Earth, relocating to a permanent base on the moon or a colony on Mars, because there’s an increasing risk that a disaster will destroy Earth.

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« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2007, 01:48:00 am »

Sound far fetched? Consider the fact that over two thousand scientists in 100 countries pulled together research in a 20 year period forging a dangerously real climate crisis consensus. One that suggests all the nations on Earth must work together to solve the crisis of global warming if we want to continue any future quality of life on our planet.



 Gore articulated through a savvy slide show presentation some key factors that have produced such climate threatening evidence:

Dumping of carbon dioxide into the Earth’s environment has literally changed the relationship of the Earth and the Sun. CO² emissions are being absorbed into the oceans increasing the saturation of calcium carbonate to levels that will prevent formation of corals and interfere with the making of shells by any sea creature.
Melting of the North Polar ice caps and destabilizing the massive mound of ice on Greenland and West Antarctica, threaten a worldwide increase in sea levels of as much as 20 feet.
Cutting and burning of forests along with global warming cause the loss of living species at a level comparable to the extinction of dinosaurs 65 million years ago.
Gore shared a telling anecdote about his sixth grade teacher who truly believed that continents are so vast that it’s impossible for them to move and form together. One of his classmates asked this instructor if ever the east coast of South America and the west coast of Africa fit together at one point in time. The teacher responded, “That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard!” Of course, now we know at one time the two countries fit right together then moved apart millions of years ago. And they’re still moving.
Mark Twain’s famous aphorism expresses this sentiment as well:

“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
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« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2007, 01:50:22 am »

The late Carl Sagan was famous for saying, “If you had a globe covered with a coat of varnish, the thickness of that varnish would be about the same as the thickness of the Earth’s atmosphere compared to the Earth itself.” Gore says that we have grown so enormously and our technologies have advanced so vastly that we are capable of having major influence on the Earth’s thinning atmosphere, particularly altering the concentration of its molecular components. Since we’ve increased the amount of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, they thicken and trap infrared radiation that would otherwise escape the atmosphere and continue out to the universe. The result, the Earth’s temperature of its atmosphere and oceans are getting dangerously warmer.



What’s really infuriating about this climate of chaos and horrific deterioration of our precious environment is that our United States government is ignoring it in favor of supporting the fat profits of oil dependency. Gore alluded, “By ignoring scientific consensus on critical issues such as global climate change, [President Bush and his administration] are threatening the Earth’s future.” On June 21, 2004, 48 Nobel Prize-winning scientists accused President Bush and his administration of distorting science.

As impassioned as Gore is about his subject matter and tireless dedication to championing his cause since losing the presidential election in 2000, one senses his heart and soul are in the right place when watching this absorbing documentary tightly directed by Davis Guggenheim. What’s puzzling is though he cites references to scientists like Roger Revelle, none are interviewed. I don’t doubt his credibility. Just check out his in depth book version of the documentary. Replete with gloriously detailed graphics, stunning photography and numerous sources cited that back Gore’s claims; the book satiates the inquisitive mind far richer than the film does. The screen version would benefit greatly by visiting some perspective scientists and climatologists, getting inside their heads on this subject matter. Here we get just Gore and his crafty slide show.

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« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2007, 01:51:46 am »

Climatologist Mark Seeley Offers His Thoughts on ‘Truth’




U of M Climatologist Mark Seeley talked after the preview screening of An Inconvenient Truth at Landmark’s Edina 4 Theatre. His reaction to the film, “Uff da,” he replied. Quite concerned about global warming’s effects, he elaborated, “Eight of the last nine winters have been in the top 25% of warmest weathers.” He suggested just this year that the climate models in our first three months changed in whole numbers. Our memorial weekend also had disturbingly inflated dew point values. As Gore pointed out that the climate is getting wetter, Minnesota also shows numbers on the rise with wetness since our last dry spell, which was the summer of 1988.

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« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2007, 01:54:38 am »

Q & A Session followed with film attendants

Question: “What is it like to speak in such clear terms about issues like global warming?”

Seeley: “Mr. Gore is not a scientist but he’s been at it for a long time. We need to exercise our passion of this issue. It’s a matter of ethics. There’s not a lot of science in this movie. I’m put off by the science in this movie. Science is about trying to define with confidence and certainty… I think the human race has a philanthropic gene. We want to do right by our environment. I have a long term history of studying observational evidence. Faith based communities are trying to cope with this issue. They’re guided by their faith. Ethics, emotions and politics need to be weaved in when we talk about global warming. 



Question: “Temperatures have been increasing on Mars like the Earth. Is global warming a hoax?”

Seeley: “Labeled contrarians have been personally attacking this idea but the vast majority of people are accepting global warming.”

Question: “What do you see as definite signs of global warming?”

Seeley: “There is global warming. Land transformation, the Earth’s atmospheric composition, and human related climate drivers are all reasons to take action. It’s important to have these discussions, especially with our children.”

Question: “Doesn’t science require a proof theory?”

Seeley: “Science is not our only tool to dealing with this. It’s a moral issue.”

Audience Comment: “Regarding world population balance, please don’t have as many children as your parents did. Why didn’t Gore emphasize we today are having too many children.”

Question: “Scientific credentials should speak loudly on these issues. Instead of ‘The British are coming; The British are coming’ it’s become ‘The British might be on their way.’ What things would you change in the science of the film?”

Seeley: “It’s a moral problem but then he [Gore] doesn’t talk about what the morals are. Gore is advocating on a personal and political level. We all have our individual philanthropic passions. Mine are what has happened to my family. [Note of interest regarding Mark’s quote here. Gore’s impetus for his life long passion to global warming stems from a near fatal car accident his son experienced.] I expend my energies on multiple sclerosis. It affects me personally. I can’t always be steered in the direction someone would like to steer me in.”

 
 
Michael Reinbold, a continuing web reporter, freelances as a writer and banquet caterer. A passionate believer in SJA's mission of social justice and collaborative ministry, Michael is an SJA Choir member, mass reader, Team Oz AIDS rider and Grace House volunteer cook. With an extensive background in theater, photography and fundraising, he relishes all aspects of the arts, staying fit and inspiring and working with people.
Check out detailed information about Gore’s documentary. Go to www.climatecrisis.net. You can purchase the book An Inconvenient Truth now available at all major bookstores.

http://www.stjoan.com/er6/inconvenient/inconvenient.htm
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Brandon
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« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2007, 01:57:01 am »





Michael Reinbold, a continuing web reporter, freelances as a writer and banquet caterer. A passionate believer in SJA's mission of social justice and collaborative ministry, Michael is an SJA Choir member, mass reader, Team Oz AIDS rider and Grace House volunteer cook. With an extensive background in theater, photography and fundraising, he relishes all aspects of the arts, staying fit and inspiring and working with people.
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Brandon
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« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2007, 02:08:00 am »

Environment | 29.01.2007
Expert: Most Alpine Glaciers Gone in 30 Years

Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: 



Europe's glaciers keep melting away
Rising temperatures will cause a rapid melting of Europe's glaciers and have most of them disappear within three decades, according to an expert.

Speaking at a recent conference on the future of the Alps in Austria, Roland Psenner of the University of Innsbruck had little hope for the survival of Europe's icy giants.

 

"The future of the Tyrolean glaciers looks pretty liquid," he said, according to Austrian national broadcaster ORF. "We're losing about 3 percent of glacial mass per year."

 

He said the melting at the current rate would make most glaciers disappear by 2050, with only a few at altitudes of more than 4,000 meters (13,120 feet) surviving.

 

Global meltdown


Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:


 
Many, like the Morteratsch glacier in Switzerland, are already rapidly retreating
But Psenner also told the Web site of German newsmagazine Der Spiegel that a more rapid disappearance is likely: At current melting rates, the glaciers could be gone as early as 2037.

 

The Web site also reported that a recent report by the World Glacier Monitoring Service (WMGS) at Zurich University showed that the world's glaciers lost between 60 and 70 centimeters (23.6 and 27.5 inches) in 2005.

 

"There's a clear tendency that the rise in temperatures and consequently the melting of glaciers is speeding up," Michael Zemp of the university's geographical institute told the Web site.


 
DW staff (win)


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2324737,00.html
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Brandon
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« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2007, 02:10:16 am »



Grinnell Glacier in Glacier National Park (US) showing recession since 1850 of 1.1 km (0.7 miles) USGS
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« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2007, 02:13:17 am »



This map of mountain glacier mass balance changes since 1970 shows thinning in yellow and red, and thickening in blue.

Summary
The effective rate of change in glacier thickness, also known as the glaciological mass balance, is a measure of the average change in a glacier's thickness after correcting for changes in density associated with the compaction of snow and conversion to ice. The map shows the average annual rate of thinning since 1970 for the 173 glaciers that have been measured at least 5 times between 1970 and 2004 (Dyurgerov and Meier 2005). Larger changes are plotted as larger circles and towards the back.

All survey regions except Scandinavia show a net thinning. This widespread glacier retreat is generally regarded as a sign of global warming.

During this period, 83% of surveyed glaciers showed thinning with an average loss across all glaciers of 0.31 m/yr. The most rapidly growing glacier in the sample is Engabreen glacier in Norway with a thickening of 0.64 m/yr. The most rapidly shrinking was Ivory glacier in New Zealand which was thinning at 2.4 m/yr. Ivory glacier had totally disintegrated by circa 1988 [1].
Notes
This sample of mountain glaciers excludes the primary ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica.

It should be acknowledged that glacier sampling is heavily biased towards North America and Europe. Africa has only a handful of glaciers, whereas Australia has none. However substantial unsampled mountain glaciers do exist in South America, Asia and the margins of Antarctica. Despite their importance, none of the marginal Antarctic glaciers have had their mass balance sampled at least 5 times since 1970.

These estimates of ice sheet thinning do not include glacier mass lost due to iceberg calving. Such calving is not significant for most mountain glaciers, since only a small proportion of these glaciers terminate in the ocean.


Reference

Dyurgerov, Mark B. and Mark F. Meier (2005). "Glaciers and the Changing Earth System: A 2004 Snapshot". Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research, Occasional Paper 58. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Glacier_Mass_Balance_Map.png
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« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2007, 02:16:01 am »



Global glacial mass balance in the last fifty years, reported to the WGMS and NSIDC. The increasing downward trend in the late 1980s is symptomatic of the increased rate and number of retreating glaciers.

References
Dyurgerov, Mark B. (2002). "Glacier Mass Balance and Regime: Data of Measurements and Analysis". Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research, Occasional Paper 55. 
Dyurgerov, Mark B. and Mark F. Meier (2005). "Glaciers and the Changing Earth System: A 2004 Snapshot". Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research, Occasional Paper 58. 
J. Oerlemans (2005). "Extracting a Climate Signal from 169 Glacier Records". Science 308 (5722): 675 - 677. 
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« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2007, 02:18:09 am »



This map from the annual Glacier Commission surveys in Italy and Switzerland shows the percentage of advancing glaciers in the Alps. Mid-20th century saw strong retreating trends, but not as extreme as the present; current retreats represent additional reductions of already smaller glaciers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850
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« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2007, 02:22:19 am »



These glaciers in New Zealand have continued to retreat rapidly in recent years. Notice the larger terminal lakes, the retreat of the white ice (ice free of moraine cover), and the higher moraine walls due to ice thinning. Photo.
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« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2007, 03:13:48 am »

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Oi vey...  This is like beating my head against a wall...  Those GUYS WERE CONSIDERED SCIENTISTS!

Merlin, only you would invoke the names of Christian fundies and elevate them to the level of scientists.  Don't you know that xtianity has been the greatest barrier to real science in this and any age??  How silly of you.  Guess we'll just have to ignore all the people that have been persecuted for the last 2000 years, all cause they had beliefs that differed from xtianity.
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