http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000201;p=1Welcome Bluducky,
You're # 2 in the group. Bring your bells.
And your beliefs and let's see how they compare with Lucifer.
Why don't you start with how Jesus was just a rabbi.
ÊThe Urantia Book
Ê
ÊPAPER 53
ÊTHE LUCIFER REBELLION
Ê
Ê LUCIFER was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty -- rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.
Ê 53:0.2 In the universe of Nebadon, the domain of Christ Michael, there are ten thousand systems of inhabited worlds. In all the history of Lanonandek Sons, in all their work throughout these thousands of systems and at the universe headquarters, only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son.
Ê
ÊÊ
1. THE LEADERS OF REBELLION
Ê
Ê 53:1.1 Lucifer was not an ascendant being; he was a created Son of the local universe, and of him it was said: "You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created till unrighteousness was found in you." Many times had he been in counsel with the Most Highs of Edentia. And Lucifer reigned "upon the holy mountain of God," the administrative mount of Jerusem, for he was the chief executive of a great system of 607 inhabited worlds.
Ê 53:1.2 Lucifer was a magnificent being, a brilliant personality; he stood next to the Most High Fathers of the constellations in the direct line of universe authority. Notwithstanding Lucifer's transgression, subordinate intelligences refrained from showing him disrespect and disdain prior to Michael's bestowal on Urantia. Even the archangel of Michael, at the time of Moses' resurrection, "did not bring against him an accusing judgment but simply said, `the Judge rebuke you.'" Judgment in such matters belongs to the Ancients of Days, the rulers of the superuniverse.
Ê 53:1.3 Lucifer is now the fallen and deposed Sovereign of Satania. Self-contemplation is most disastrous, even to the exalted personalities of the celestial world. Of Lucifer it was said: "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness." Your olden prophet saw his sad estate when he wrote: "How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cast down, you who dared to confuse the worlds!"
Ê 53:1.4 Very little was heard of Lucifer on Urantia owing to the fact that he assigned his first lieutenant, Satan, to advocate his cause on your planet. Satan was a member of the same primary group of Lanonandeks but had never functioned as a System Sovereign; he entered fully into the Lucifer insurrection. The "devil" is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.
Ê 53:1.5 Abaddon was the chief of the staff of Caligastia. He followed his master into rebellion and has ever since acted as chief executive of the Urantia rebels. Beelzebub was the leader of the disloyal midway creatures who allied themselves with the forces of the traitorous Caligastia.
Ê
Ê 53:1.6 The dragon eventually became the symbolic representation of all these evil personages. Upon the triumph of Michael, "Gabriel came down from Salvington and bound the dragon (all the rebel leaders) for an age." Of the Jerusem seraphic rebels it is written: "And the angels who kept not their first estate but left their own habitation, he has reserved in sure chains of darkness to the judgment of the great day."
Ê
ÊÊ
2. THE CAUSES OF REBELLION
Ê
Ê 53:2.1 Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan, had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.
Ê 53:2.2 There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer's mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan, but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of "self-assertion and liberty."
Ê
Ê 53:2.3 No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer's mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.
Ê 53:2.4 Throughout this period Lucifer became increasingly critical of the entire plan of universe administration but always professed wholehearted loyalty to the Supreme Rulers. His first outspoken disloyalty was manifested on the occasion of a visit of Gabriel to Jerusem just a few days before the open proclamation of the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. Gabriel was so profoundly impressed with the certainty of the impending outbreak that he went direct to Edentia to confer with the Constellation Fathers regarding the measures to be employed in case of open rebellion.
Ê 53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer's mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.
Ê
ÊÊ
3. THE LUCIFER MANIFESTO
Ê
Ê 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:
Ê
1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father's actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel's proposals.
Ê
.............
********************>>>>>>>>>
............53:5.6 "There was war in heaven; Michael's commander and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer, Satan, and the apostate princes); and the dragon and his rebellious angels fought but prevailed not." This "war in heaven" was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia. In the early days of the struggle Lucifer held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater. Gabriel conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters taken up near at hand. The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision.
Ê 53:5.7 But this war in heaven was very terrible and very real. While displaying none of the barbarities so characteristic of physical warfare on the immature worlds, this conflict was far more deadly; material life is in jeopardy in material combat, but the war in heaven was fought in terms of life eternal.
http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p053.htm .
[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 01-02-2005).]
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bluducky
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posted 01-03-2005 12:17 AM
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Okay abs, but for the answer to Jesus being a Rabbi, look in "The Nature of God" thread.. just posted there..
not much time for a real answer at the moment, but if one is warranted, I'll be back soon
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Posts: 1626 | From: Queensland, Australia | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
bluducky
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posted 01-03-2005 03:29 AM
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Okay, I have just read your post in entirety, and I must say that I am very evil, oh yes indeed; for that which makes Lucifer 'evil' was firmly outlined by your post, also the origin of rebellion (you're sure it started in Lucifer's mind, eh? show me proof! Oops! the very statement i'm referring to in your post isn't sure itself.. read it)
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Lucifer was a magnificent being, a brilliant personality; he stood next to the Most High Fathers of the constellations in the direct line of universe authority.
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WOW!!! It describes me perfectly!!
well, that settles this case, doesn't it?
Why am I playing this ridiculous game with you? Honestly...
I have honestly, NEVER seen ANY form of historical and/or scientific facts in any of your posts Aby-san, which back up your opinions, and yet you still are so convinced that I am somehow wrong by default... show me how I am wrong, WITHOUT copious Urantia Paper quotes, if possible, for then and ONLY then, will you have a chance in the real world.
You MUST backup your claims, and NOT with outdated, biased views of "unorthodox orthodoxy".
I admire your persistence, I truly do. You have consistently been there with the Urantia Papers time and again, adding whatever information you could find that you felt must be said, and your zeal has been observed by all. If I myself had that kind of determination, I would be a very satisfied man.
It was you, Absonite, that introduced me to the Urantia Papers in a real way, and for this, I thank you. The Papers deserve a place on my bookshelf, which is a very exclusive selection (albeit large).
BUT...
Sometimes, you must know when enough is enough. oftentimes, the Urantia Papers have served no purpose but to add opinion, not fact, and in several threads, instead of educated banter, I have observed nothing but the trite comments of a crazyman!
When are you going to provide me with food for thought? Give me solid food, not milk! (and certainly not unverifiable opinion, without firstly claiming it is such)
It is little wonder I often answer you with childish prattle, as that is all I see from you.
I am happy to continue with you Absonite, I find you quite charming, actually, (whatever I can see of 'you' within the morass of UP quotes) but I must insist you settle down a little with the uncalled-for Urantia Paper assault.
Please don't misunderstand this post. I desire that you continue to do what you feel you ought, but I must insist that your comments be thought out more thoroughly, and your rampant pasting of the UP's given more thought -- that is, get straight to the point!
My tired eyes have had enough... It's time to go..
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Posts: 1626 | From: Queensland, Australia | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
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posted 01-03-2005 06:54 AM
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Ducky,
'
as they say........ If the shoe fits.
You know in your heart if it fits and there-in lies your answer. No proofs can be offered and none are needed. Truth is it's own proof. If your ramblings resemble the sophistries of Lucifer then that is for you to weigh.
Although you are just a bug compared to the brilliance of Lucifer even such a bug can add to the confusion. And this you do well, So wear that shoe proudly Cinderella and enlarge your 'entouage. Now, at least you know what you are about clearly and the source thereof. This new found knowledge of yours changes your position and your responsibility from one of bumbling ignorance and sin to one of iniquity.
""How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cast down, you who dared to confuse the worlds!"
" in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain. "
.
[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 01-03-2005).]
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via mars 2
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posted 01-03-2005 07:11 AM
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too much l. ron hubbard ramblings in this discourse.
abs - do you stand on the corner at the mall, railing your diatribe at satan's children as they attempt to forestall economic collapse by spending the almighty dollar at wallmart?
btw, you should warm up those cups of blood you drink in the morning. try the microwave for about 15 seconds. ummm!
just like the real thing, huh?
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Posts: 2183 | From: arlington, va. | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 07:37 AM
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Ok - I took a little time and did some research and study concerning Urantia. While there are no absolutes yet, that I can draw - the vast amount of evidence is pointing out that it is only one more cult, attempting to convert through fear.
It owes it dubious success to the fact that it claims to further "define Jesus".
However, it reads more like the pages of Harry Potter.
It totally denies the Christian belief of salvation being a gift of grace - through faith. For that reason alone - I suspect most Christians would be wary of the cult.
Is it dangerous?
Probably not too much. Most folks are not going to be of such a weak and frightened mindset that Urantia holds the "key" for them. And for those who do fall into its trap - well, I would not think they have the collective intelligence to harm the rest of us too much.
I would be willing to wager that those among us who do not have any sort of fear of God - would never be able to convert to a fear-based cult such as this one.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 07:43 AM
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What I find ironic is that in the Urantia Papers, Jesus tells his followers that the Biblical scriptures are "faulty" and entirely "human in nature" and then he proceeds to channel his "new" info through another human being!
Is anyone REALLY not going to see through that hocus-pocus?
I'll be back - got to study up some more....
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
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posted 01-03-2005 08:05 AM
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Tippy,
as usual, your ramblings are nonsensical and have distorted your own mind.
Everything you have stated above is wrong concerning the Urantia papers. How is that possible, even for a superficial read like yours?
I know you have the same trouble with your other interpretations of religious writings so I am not really surprised, just amazed.
I challenge you to prove your irresponsible rambling.
I would be willing to wager that those among us who have read your opinions and insights regard them as trash and respect them accordingly, with the exception of course of those astute confused fellows of like mind or should I say mindless.
You have stated that :
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denies the Christian belief of salvation being a gift of grace - through faith. For that reason alone - I suspect most Christians would be wary of the cult.
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and also:
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the vast amount of evidence is pointing out that it is only one more cult, attempting to convert through fear.
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"193:1.2 "Peace be upon you. You rejoice to know that I am the resurrection and the life, but this will avail you nothing unless you are first born of the eternal spirit, thereby coming to possess, by ÊfaithÊ, the gift of eternal life. If you are the ÊfaithÊ sons of my Father, you shall never die; you shall not perish. The gospel of the kingdom has taught you that all men are the sons of God. And this good news concerning the love of the heavenly Father for his children on earth must be carried to all the world. The time has come when you worship God neither on Gerizim nor at Jerusalem, but where you are, as you are, in spirit and in truth. It is your ÊfaithÊ that ÊsavesÊ your souls. Salvation is the gift of God to all who believe they are his sons. But be not deceived; while salvation is the free gift of God and is bestowed upon all who accept it by ÊfaithÊ, there follows the experience of bearing the fruits of this spirit life as it is lived in the flesh. The acceptance of the doctrine of the fatherhood of God implies that you also freely accept the associated truth of the brotherhood of man. And if man is your brother, he is even more than your neighbor, whom the Father requires you to love as yourself. Your brother, being of your own family, you will not only love with a family affection, but you will also serve as you would serve yourself. And you will thus love and serve your brother because you, being my brethren, have been thus loved and served by me. Go, then, into all the world telling this good news to all creatures of every race, tribe, and nation. My spirit shall go before you, and I will be with you always."
*********
4:4.9 The consciousness of a victorious human life on earth is born of that creature faith which dares to challenge each recurring episode of existence when confronted with the awful spectacle of human limitations, by the unfailing declaration: Even if I cannot do this, there lives in me one who can and will do it, a part of the Father-Absolute of the universe of universes. And that is "the victory which overcomes the world, even your faith."
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Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 08:16 AM
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Oh, Ab,
So quick to insult - so ferocious to defend.
In Christianity, the idea of being saved by grace, through faith, is an absolute. The 'faith' must be that Jesus died for your sins - your own personal Savior.
From what I understand, the Urantia Papers do not accept the idea of Jesus being the sacrifical lamb for the collective sins. If this is true - there can be no faith that Jesus gave his life, as a sacrifice, for others - hence, no salvation by faith.
Now, the Urantia BS might offer salvation through faith - by belief in their own personal rendition of Jesus. But it is not in the Christian sense.
I wonder if your own faith is as strong as you would like us to believe - you continuously throw out Urantia as your "way" and dare other to defy you.
At any rate - you are portraying the Urantia in such a negative, hateful light that it is doing it no favors.
You might consider that.
All I am seeing is that Urantia followers are nasty and mean-mouthed individuals who debate by insulting everyone else.
You're itchin' for a fight. But you don't have the armor.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 08:40 AM
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One thing that greatly disturbes me - and perhaps you could explain the significance of this, Ab....when discussing Gardner - the man who correctly identified those who channeled and wrote the Urantia Papers, it is said:
that Wilfred Kellogg, his wife, Anna Kellogg and Dr. Sadler's wife, Lena Kellogg (Anna's sister), all had the same grandfather, John Preston Kellogg, who was the father of William Keith Kellogg (the Cornflakes king) and Dr. John Kellogg. The latter did battle with Ellen G. White and was excommunicated from the Adventist church.
Is there a specific reason why Jesus would choose a situation like this to channel a message?
Is he trying to promote incestuous relationships? I haven't had enough time to read all of it - so could you please tell us that?
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
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posted 01-03-2005 08:50 AM
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Child of Lucifer,
you state:
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In Christianity, the idea of being saved by grace, through faith, is an absolute. The 'faith' must be that Jesus died for your sins - your own personal Savior.
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I have already showed you that you are in error regarding your superficial analysis premediated by your own misunderstand and a 'priori distorted spiritual disbeliefs.
Faith is quite different than a belief of "died for your sins" as some Christians believe. Although being "saved by Faith" alone is a valid spiritual truth, "being saved by the blood" or the "sacrifice of the lamb" Jesus is an erroneous belief, a childish belief, and a retarded relic of the Jewish sacrificial system, the personal belief of Paul and apparently yours as well.
A view of how God sees the idea is as follows.
"4:5.4 The barbarous idea of appeasing an angry God, of propitiating an offended Lord, of winning the favor of Deity through sacrifices and penance and even by the shedding of blood, represents a religion wholly puerile and primitive, a philosophy unworthy of an enlightened age of science and truth. Such beliefs are utterly repulsive to the celestial beings and the divine rulers who serve and reign in the universes. It is an affront to God to believe, hold, or teach that innocent blood must be shed in order to win his favor or to divert the fictitious divine wrath.
4:5.5 The Hebrews believed that "without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin." They had not found deliverance from the old and pagan idea that the Gods could not be appeased except by the sight of blood, though Moses did make a distinct advance when he forbade human sacrifices and substituted therefor, in the primitive minds of his childlike Bedouin followers, the ceremonial sacrifice of animals.
4:5.6 The bestowal of a Paradise Son on your world was inherent in the situation of closing a planetary age; it was inescapable, and it was not made necessary for the purpose of winning the favor of God. This bestowal also happened to be the final personal act of a Creator Son in the long adventure of earning the experiential sovereignty of his universe. What a travesty upon the infinite character of God! this teaching that his fatherly heart in all its austere coldness and hardness was so untouched by the misfortunes and sorrows of his creatures that his tender mercies were not forthcoming until he saw his blameless Son bleeding and dying upon the cross of Calvary!
4:5.7 But the inhabitants of Urantia are to find deliverance from these ancient errors and pagan superstitions respecting the nature of the Universal Father. The revelation of the truth about God is appearing, and the human race is destined to know the Universal Father in all that beauty of character and loveliness of attributes so magnificently portrayed by the Creator Son who sojourned on Urantia as the Son of Man and the Son of God."
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Tippy,
At any rate - you are portraying the Urantia in such a negative, hateful light that it is doing it no favors.
You might consider that.
All I am seeing is that Urantia followers are nasty and mean-mouthed individuals who debate by insulting everyone else.
You're itchin' for a fight. But you don't have the armor. "
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I am not itching for a fight Tippy and I certainly do have the armour, I am merely responding to some of your outrageous rhetoric confused as it is. Because I have stood up to you and your outrageous assertations about God and Jesus, you would try to paint me as being foul mouthed and insulting. You are the one being foul mouthed and insulting and you would then try to paint Urantia and all it's believers with your broad brush of insult because you perceive that I am the same and so all must be like me. How pityful and pathethic as you squirm and lash out to my reply of your iniquity and slander of God and Jesus.
You might rethink your irresponsible beliefs even during your time of confusion and search for truth.
Although Jesus may love you, I personally at this time care not a whit for either your salvation; survival or sophistry. You are simply another lost soul wandering around and wallowing in ignorance. You have plenty of company.
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Absonite
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posted 01-03-2005 09:06 AM
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Gardner - the man who correctly identified
It is interesting to watch your convoluted brand of so-called research and study. Not only is your above premise incorrect; perhaps something you are parroting, but it really has nothing to do with anything of any importance, except perhaps to you. And you have already showed us what value your sense of what is important and what is not..... is.
What I think has some importance is how your beliefs align with the Lucifer manifesto above. And, that is not important to me because I really could care less, I think it should be important to you. And, I'm sure you could care less as well. You've already shown that.
And, besides all of that, I don't even know why you would care what I think or say anyway. In your mind doing the will of God is being a robot; an automaton.
So, I don't even understand why you would be offended by the moniker of child of lucifer. They are simply words and you spout words about such things as divinity as if they have no responsibility or meaning anyway. And, besides Lucifer is probably just a myth anyway, right? So why care at all.?
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Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 09:08 AM
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I have already showed you that you are in error regarding your superficial analysis premediated by your own misunderstand and a 'priori distorted spiritual disbeliefs.
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No, you haven't. You assume I missunderstand - but you are wrong.
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Faith is quite different than a belief of "died for your sins" as some Christians believe. Although being "saved by Faith" alone is a valid spiritual truth, "being saved by the blood" or the "sacrifice of the lamb" Jesus is an erroneous belief, a childish belief, and a retarded relic of the Jewish sacrificial system, the personal belief of Paul and apparently yours as well.
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Wrong again. It is a fundamental Christian belief - I do not hold it.
Strike two.
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A view of how God sees the idea is as follows.
...<snip out of unbearable boredom and repetition>..
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Quoting Urantia solves nothing since you have yet to establish the validity of the source.
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I am not itching for a fight Tippy and I certainly do have the armour, I am merely responding to some of your outrageous rhetoric confused as it is. Because I have stood up to you and your outrageous assertations about God and Jesus, you would try to paint me as being foul mouthed and insulting.
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Excuse me? You are calling folks "children of Lucifer" and you don't think you are insulting and foul-mouthed? Keep trying to convince yourself of that one - but you will never convince anyone else.
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You are the one being foul mouthed and insulting and you would then try to paint Urantia and all it's believers with your broad brush of insult because you perceive that I am the same and so all must be like me. How pityful and pathethic as you squirm and lash out to my reply of your iniquity and slander of God and Jesus.
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Perhaps all Urantians' are not as pityful as you - maybe that was a snap judgement on my part - but it is still accurate. You, yourself are doing Urantia no favors with your hateful and judgemental attitude.
If (and I reiterate "if") you are a reasonable representation of the cult - it's doomed to failure.
You remind me of the way Hitler represented Christianity.
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You might rethink your irresponsible beliefs even during your time of confusion and search for truth.
Although Jesus may love you, I personally at this time care not a whit for either your salvation; survival or sophistry. You are simply another lost soul wandering around and wallowing in ignorance. You have plenty of company.
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On the other hand - I bear you absolutely NO animosity. I wish you all the best and all the happiness you can achieve.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 09:10 AM
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Ab - do you always dodge questions that others put to you?
If you have no defense for Jesus channeling through incestous individuals - just say so. Why all the theatrics?
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
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posted 01-03-2005 09:16 AM
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tippy,
i don't know what you are talking about.
Why don't you do some real research, something of quality instead of your off the cuff ignorant responses and come back in a month or two with some real questions.
.
[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 01-03-2005).]
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Tippy
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posted 01-03-2005 09:23 AM
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I'm talking about the question I posed to you, concerning the familial relationship of the individuals responsible for channeling and publishing the Urantia, a few posts back that you danced around.
You need to remember - that I was not even addressing you - when you decided to jump in and start name-calling.
I think an even bigger question you need to answer - is WHY you believe Urantia? You see, I have no problem with your beliefs - only that you seem intent on damning others with them.
Perhaps you don't realise that by quoting and quoting and quoting Urantia passages - you accomplish nothing. Nothing at all - except you lose folks' interest.
What is it you want to accomplish here, Ab?
I've been in research and study branch of Christianity and other religions for quite some time (not Urantia) but right off the bat - there are many similarities in what is commonly known as the hocus-pocus con game.
Why did Jesus wait 1900 years to come back and tell folks the Bible "got it wrong"?
Kinda' lazy of Him, wouldn't you say? You would think that He would have corrected any 'errs' right off the bat - to protect the innocent.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
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posted 01-03-2005 09:26 AM
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tippy,
i don't know what you are talking about.
Why don't you do some real research, something of quality instead of your off the cuff ignorant responses and come back in a month or two with some real questions.
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Posts: 2197 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
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Member # 2282
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posted 01-03-2005 09:36 AM
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Finally, Ab, something you post that has the ring of truth. You really DON'T know what I am talking about. That I can believe.
That, and you don't have the answers to any of my, or anyone else's questions, so you need to make a big show of pretending aloofness.
I'm not going to take any more time and study Urantia, Ab - your presentation of it has already convinced me it is likely just another New Age cult.
Perhaps it is you who should devote a couple more months to studying it - and then come back and present a logical case for us to assess.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
via mars 2
Member
Member # 1970
Member Rated:
posted 01-03-2005 09:43 AM
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i refuse to answer.
i refuse to answer.
i refuse to answer.
... and one more time for posterity. i refuse to answer.
nice engagement tippy. do you see a pattern here?
abs, you're such a fish out of water. you better hop back in the bowl before the cat sees you flopping on the floor.
too ****ing funny ...
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Posts: 2183 | From: arlington, va. | Registered: May 2004 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
Member
Member # 1766
posted 01-03-2005 10:24 AM
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Tippy,
the reason I don't know what you are talking about is because you don't know what you are talking about.
Your primal visceral reactions and "stream of conciousness" thoughts are disjointed and disorganized at best as is your sudden interest and subsequent immediate disinterest. These are the reactions of a child; not someone in search of truth.
You are apparently still living out your epiphany of your disillusionment with orthodox Christianity and your discovery that the God of the bible was not always the God of Love you envision.
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I was raised a strict Christian and entered theological studies where I found that the Bible was NOT the book of love I once believed it to be. The God of the Bible - is NOT a god of love. That was the begining of the end - when I realized that. My brainwashed religious-indoctrination started to falter - leaving me scared and confused.
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You are still scared and confused. How will you find your way?
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Posts: 2197 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
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Member # 2282
Member Rated:
posted 01-03-2005 10:55 AM
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Wrong again, Ab.
You called me out - then you were the one who tucked your tail between your legs and slunk off, refusing to answer the questions I posed.
I am not interested in Urantia - simply because it is not interesting to me. I have studied too many cults and con games to devote any serious time to that one.
There really is no conspiracy theory of merit behind it.
If Urantia makes you happy - fine - but the way you are acting here - all defensive and foaming at the mouth - I would not describe you as a carefee soul. Instead, you seem bent and determined to degrade and condemn those who do not adhere to your way of thinking.
Perhaps Urantia has helped someone, somewhere along the way, and it should be applauded for that - but like any other belief system - it is a crutch. It may offer a stability and balance to one in crisis - but like any crutch - there comes a time to lay it aside and continue to advance on one's own.
You seem to think that those who do not believe in Urantia are unhappy - or lost. That could not be further from the truth. I am very content and happy in my life - without Urantia - or any other cult. And of my aquantainces many are happy - yet none are Urantians.
The only Urantian I have come into contact with (you) has been vindictive, nasty, judgemental and has displayed fanatical extremism that is, I'm sorry to say, just a tad disconcerting.
I don't know your story. But I would be willing to guess you were in some sort of "crisis" probably emotionally, when you 'found' Urantia and it offered you a new lease on life. Most religious conversions follow that forumla - but it's not 100%, of course.
My best advice to you? Just lighten up. Quit calling others names and trying to bolster your heavenly 'brownie points' with Michael, the Archangel, by attacking what you view as his 'enemies'. You needn't start 'attack threads' just to call someone out. Because you didn't fare so well on this one. You bit off more than you could chew.
I would still be interested to learn how you came to 'accept' the Urantia as true - what kind of effect it had on your life - and why you think it is important to promote it now.
If we can define some common ground in a discussion - things will go much better.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
bluducky
Member
Member # 1880
Member Rated:
posted 01-03-2005 03:36 PM
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Lucy Fur! My new best friend (ask abs)
Welcome aboard Lucy Fur, may your reign be forever sweet to your followers..
Abs, I think Tippy and I should go and picnic or something, and leave you standing on the street corner, preaching your fire and brimstone.
Irrigardless of how others have tolerated you, and been rather kind and accepting toward you, you still insist on being a self-righteous heretic, fresh from Urantia College.
Care to explain this?
(since when have I ever taken a REAL stab at you? I haven't called YOU a child of Satan, and then expounded a million reasons why it is so, have I?)
Lay off the hot sauce, Aby...
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Posts: 1626 | From: Queensland, Australia | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Brig
Administrator
Member # 802
Rate Member posted 01-03-2005 05:02 PM
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Abs is very young, Give him time to grow in wisdom
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Posts: 9139 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
Member
Member # 1766
posted 01-03-2005 08:13 PM
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We have common ground Tippy,
I asked you how your views correspond with the above Lucifer manifesto. You haven't answered.
I don't know you, all I can go on is what you write.
Why is it that people like you go off spouting religious bulls**t and then acuse others of being religious fanatics or foaming at the mouth?
If you have somehow become disillusioned because you were brought up on fairytales like most others including myself it doesn't necessarily mean that the truth is not out there; even if it sometimes comes in unorthodox attire as did Jesus for the Jews.
God doesn't take days off and He certainly doesn't cease to enlighten mankind. Epochal revelation is different. That only happens at different peaks of mankinds development.
You of course are too smart and street wise to fall for that nonsense. Besides, why would an astute deep thinker like yourself wish to be involved with the life of an automaton.
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Posts: 2197 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
bluducky
Member
Member # 1880
Member Rated:
posted 01-03-2005 09:08 PM
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An interesting turn of events has occured, I no longer appear to be the target of Absonites arrows, but rather, now Tippy (my beloved puppy) is the target.
I'm starting to feel a little rejected, honestly...
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Posts: 1626 | From: Queensland, Australia | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |
Dorian Gray
Member
Member # 192
Member Rated:
posted 01-03-2005 10:43 PM
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Am I one of Lucifer's children? Or like, a second cousin or something?
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Posts: 3576 | From: Dayton, OH | Registered: Aug 2000 | IP: Logged |
Absonite
Member
Member # 1766
posted 01-03-2005 11:02 PM
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Tippy:
If an angel can 'fall' - so can anyone who takes up temporary spiritual residence in heaven. Yes - temporary - because if you pay close attention to the Bible stories - that is all that can be hoped for - a temporary respite until one of you has a thought of your own - and hence, not a thought of God's and - wheeeeee...... - here we all go again - right back where we started from.
The only thing that could possibly stop that scenario is if your spirit, once in its heavenly abode, is nothing more than a mindless robot - never thinking, never feeling.
Otherwise - we are going to repeat this silly game millions and millions of times - if we haven't already.
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The spiritually blind individual who logically follows scientific dictation, social usage, and religious dogma stands in grave danger of sacrificing his moral freedom and losing his spiritual liberty. Such a soul is destined to become an intellectual parrot, a social automaton, and a slave to religious authority.
132:2.5 Goodness is always growing toward new levels of the increasing liberty of moral self-realization and spiritual personality attainment -- the discovery of, and identification with, the indwelling Adjuster. An experience is good when it heightens the appreciation of beauty, augments the moral will, enhances the discernment of truth, enlarges the capacity to love and serve one's fellows, exalts the spiritual ideals, and unifies the supreme human motives of time with the eternal plans of the indwelling Adjuster, all of which lead directly to an increased desire to do the Father's will, thereby fostering the divine passion to find God and to be more like him.
132:2.6 As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.
http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p132.htm 195:6.8 Materialism reduces man to a soulless automatonÊ and constitutes him merely an arithmetical symbol finding a helpless place in the mathematical formula of an unromantic and mechanistic universe. But whence comes all this vast universe of mathematics without a Master Mathematician? Science may expatiate on the conservation of matter, but religion validates the conservation of men's souls -- it concerns their experience with spiritual realities and eternal values.
195:6.9 The materialistic sociologist of today surveys a community, makes a report thereon, and leaves the people as he found them. Nineteen hundred years ago, unlearned Galileans surveyed Jesus giving his life as a spiritual contribution to man's inner experience and then went out and turned the whole Roman Empire upside down.
195:6.10 But religious leaders are making a great mistake when they try to call modern man to spiritual battle with the trumpet blasts of the Middle Ages. Religion must provide itself with new and up-to-date slogans. Neither democracy nor any other political panacea will take the place of spiritual progress. False religions may represent an evasion of reality, but Jesus in his gospel introduced mortal man to the very entrance upon an eternal reality of spiritual progression.
195:6.11 To say that mind "emerged" from matter explains nothing. If the universe were merely a mechanism and mind were unapart from matter, we would never have two differing interpretations of any observed phenomenon. The concepts of truth, beauty, and goodness are not inherent in either physics or chemistry. A machine cannot know, much less know truth, hunger for righteousness, and cherish goodness.
195:6.12 Science may be physical, but the mind of the truth-discerning scientist is at once supermaterial. Matter knows not truth, neither can it love mercy nor delight in spiritual realities. Moral convictions based on spiritual enlightenment and rooted in human experience are just as real and certain as mathematical deductions based on physical observations, but on another and higher level.
195:6.13 If men were only machines, they would react more or less uniformly to a material universe. Individuality, much less personality, would be nonexistent.
195:6.14 The fact of the absolute mechanism of Paradise at the center of the universe of universes, in the presence of the unqualified volition of the Second Source and Center, makes forever certain that determiners are not the exclusive law of the cosmos. Materialism is there, but it is not exclusive; mechanism is there, but it is not unqualified; determinism is there, but it is not alone.
195:6.15 The finite universe of matter would eventually become uniform and deterministic but for the combined presence of mind and spirit. The influence of the cosmic mind constantly injects spontaneity into even the material worlds.
195:6.16 Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing "the Father's will." And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.
195:6.17 The sincere pursuit of goodness, beauty, and truth leads to God. And every scientific discovery demonstrates the existence of both freedom and uniformity in the universe. The discoverer was free to make the discovery. The thing discovered is real and apparently uniform, or else it could not have become known as a thing.
http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p195.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2197 | Registered: Dec 2003 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
Member
Member # 2282
Member Rated:
posted 01-04-2005 04:23 AM
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We have common ground Tippy,
I asked you how your views correspond with the above Lucifer manifesto. You haven't answered.
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I am nothing like the manifesto you posted above - and I would be willing to bet neither is ducky, although he humored you in saying so.
In your story - Lucifer knew full well what the truth was - then, and only then, did he deny it. No human on Earth has that knowledge - not me, ducky, or you. the best any of us can do is surmise, read, study and choose from one of thousands of belief systems, or create our own.
Lucifer defied knowingly. If you can not see the difference - I truly am sorry for you.
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I don't know you, all I can go on is what you write.
Why is it that people like you go off spouting religious bulls**t and then acuse others of being religious fanatics or foaming at the mouth?
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I don't spout religious BS - you do. I do, however, use religious doctrine to support my arguments. Not as a belief system - but as fact-based argument.
I debate religion the same way I would debate what occured in the "Lord of The Rings" and how it differs from "Harry Potter".
Whether or not I ascribe to a religion does not preclude my debating.
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If you have somehow become disillusioned because you were brought up on fairytales like most others including myself it doesn't necessarily mean that the truth is not out there; even if it sometimes comes in unorthodox attire as did Jesus for the Jews.
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Now that is absolutely true. Somewhere there IS a truth. But you, yourself, have seen the err of Christianity - you may one day see the err of Urantia in the same way. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. And remember, people are at different levels of advancement.
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God doesn't take days off and He certainly doesn't cease to enlighten mankind. Epochal revelation is different. That only happens at different peaks of mankinds development.
You of course are too smart and street wise to fall for that nonsense. Besides, why would an astute deep thinker like yourself wish to be involved with the life of an automaton.
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Stree wise? My husband would argue that.
I am a spiritual person, what I learned, where and how, isn't up for discussion right now. But I am not a religious person.
You are putting yourself in a precarious position because you are promoting a fringe belief and you are attacking others as if they were devoid of any religious knowledge - or intellect to research.
You would get more respect if you would cease the posting of passage after passage after passage from Urantia - and put it in your own words.
Where is your heart? Why do you feel the way you do?
I understand you are very young. I think you are a bright person with a lot of potential. You will one day be a success.
But, keep an open mind.
I have had years of deistic and theistic study under my belt. In real life - the debates rarely surface. Here, online, they blow out of all proportion.
I don't mean to hurt your feelings. I really like you, despite your attacks. I'm just trying to tell you that there is a better way - a kinder way - a more subtle way.
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Posts: 102 | From: Billings, MT | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP: Logged |
Tippy
Member
Member # 2282
Member Rated:
posted 01-04-2005 04:30 AM
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