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Orichalcum?

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Author Topic: Orichalcum?  (Read 3533 times)
Tina Walter
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« on: May 05, 2007, 09:28:43 pm »

This next thread by Ulf is over five years old and was referenced by Ulf himself in the previous one, else I would never have found it.  Since it is a lot shorter, I am just going to print it in sections:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000454-2.html

Perseus
Member   posted 11-05-2002 16:10           
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George is right about oreichalkos,but a small correction mountain is "oros" not orei.
IP: 213.16.155.224
 
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
Member   posted 11-05-2002 17:52           
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Dear Perseus:
Thank you very much by its explanation. I believe that I have not explained myself well. Quice not to say that "mountain" was written in Greek like "orei". What quice to say is that, "orei", is morfema or raiz that means "mountain".

The Greek voice "orei" are related to the voice "oreios", "from the mountains, mountain-haunting". This form, "orei" appears in many Greek words that they demonstrate to his semantic value associate with mountains or hills. Let us see the following examples:

oreigenês, "mountain-born", "oreiocharês, "delighting in the hills", oreitrophos, "mountain-bred, mountain-fed", oreiplanktos, "mountain-roaming", oreiphoitos, "mountain-roaming", oreiarchês, "mountain-king".

Warm Greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com

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"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

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Erick Wright
Member   posted 11-05-2002 22:33           
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Georgeos,
According to the 7th edition Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1997),


quote:
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Chalcos - copper, Lat.aes, Hom., etc.; called in reference to its color, erythros, Il.:--copper was the first metal wrought for use...hence chalcos came to be used for metal in general; and, when men learnt to work iron, chalcos was used for sideros, and chalceus came to mean a blacksmith. Chalceos also meant bronze (i.e. copper alloyed with tin), not brass (i.e. copper alloyed with zinc, which was a later invention), and this was its sense when applied to arms.
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It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.

Respectfully,

Erick Wright


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


IP: 63.188.160.135
 
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
Member   posted 11-06-2002 03:31           
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Dear Mr. Wright:
Their considerations seem correct logics and. We agreed in it.

I always resort to the ethimology of the words, that is to say, to the study by his roots. It is the best way to deepen in the true original meaning of the voices. But without never leaving the historical and linguistic context.

According to the studies most recent "khalkos" could derive from one old root, "khalk", whose original meaning would be the one of "shining rock" or "mineral". But the important thing is that from the oldest times it was used fundamentally to denominate to "copper" and to its derivatives. It is clear that the Greek word, "oreikhalkós", when taking in its composition the root, "orei-", "mountain", "mountainous", is saying to us that the "orichalcum", would be because a "natural copper" mineral (without artificial alloys) that was obtained directly from mountains.

The fact that Plato, through Kritias, describes to us that its color was "sparkling" or "ignition" like the fire, indicate to us, indeed that we are speaking of a type of copper, since neither the bronze nor the iron (that still did not know in the times of Atlantis) nor no other natural metal that are not the copper and the gold, sparkling with reddish colors like the fire. And it is clear that gold was not, since Plato always mentions to gold like a different metal with other uses.

The passage at issue, corresponds to Kritias 116c:

".... oreichalkôi marmarugas echonti purôdeis ..."

"...of "reflections" or "sparkles" (marmarugas) like the "fire" (pürôdeis).

In Greek the root "püro" was used to denominate to the "same fire" and all the resemblance and derivative. In fact, this same root, appears in voices related to the color of the fire or what is of "yellowish red" color, it is to say between "reddish" and "yellow". It is clear that Plato was speaking to us of a metal that corresponded perfectly with the "khalkos" name or root, that is, of "copper". The reflections and the color of copper are exactly "reddish yellowish", like the "fire". The copper is very similar in its coloration to gold, but with more reddish reflections like the fire.

Warm Greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

------------------
Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


--------------------------------------------------

"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------

Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com


[This message has been edited by Georgeos Diaz-Montexano (edited 11-06-2002).]

IP: 80.35.163.54
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 11-06-2002 16:03           
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Georgeos,
We are in agreement then. By the way, welcome to the discussion.

Respectfully,

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


IP: 65.238.127.235
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 11-06-2002 17:41           
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Georgeos,
You are right with your translation: „mountain copper“ or „natural copper mineral“. But that does not mean that „oreikhalkos“ could have been pure copper! Pure copper was never appreciated nearly as valuable as gold, because it was much more frequent and easy to produce out of the natural ores by only melting them at about 1050 degree Celsius, which was possible with a charcoal fire.
As I read in Plato´s Critias, the outermost wall of Atlantis was covered with „Khalkos“, which according to your translation means copper, the second wall with tin, which was in this time (and is also today) more expensive as copper. And the most precious metal covering the innermost wall should again have been pure copper? Why should the Atlanteans give to this copper another name and considered it nearly as precious as gold?

No, „oreikhalkos„ must have been something special.
When you look into a book about copper ores, you will find that nearly all natural copper ores, also those in Spain, contain a certain amount of arsenic, mostly 0,5 – 2,5 % in relation to the copper content. When you are melting this ore, you receive a metal which looks like copper, but has different properties. It is not soft any more, but hardenable, so you can produce useable tools or weapons from it. This metal is called dirty copper when it has only small arsenic content, but „Arsenic Bronze“ when the arsenic content is higher than 1%. In the so called „Copper Age“ (5000-3000BC) the used metal was mostly not pure copper, but this just described Arsenic Bronze, which has the same look as copper. The mechanical properties of Arsenic Bronze are the same or better than that of the commonly known Tin Bronze. Therefore the archaeologists ask themselves, why this useful metal was later completely replaced by Tin Bronze (Bronze Age 3000–1000BC)?
The reason was certainly, that after being known that the alloying of 10% tin to the copper gave the same mechanical properties, and when the tin was available by trade (mostly the tin ores were not at the same place as the copper ores), it was more convenient to use this alloy for tools, weapons etc., because for it´s production not so highly skilled workers were necessary, a kind of mass production could be established, and broken tools could be recycled by simple remelting. The production of good tools from Arsenic Bronze needs a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, otherwise the product is scrub.

Now back to the „oreikhalkos“. As I wrote in my posting from 10-25-2002, there are special copper ores which contain more than 3% arsenic, up to 6%. These ores are very rare, and the melting is more dangerous, because exposed to the air the heated arsenic can oxydize, and the arsenic oxyde is volatile and very poisonous. Copper can only solve up to 5,1% arsenic; when the arsenic content is higher, the excess is precipitating within the metal during the cooling of the melt, which makes the alloy still harder. Daggers of such composition were found very rarely, but due to the surface corrosion they had tarnished to an attractive golden colour.
This is why I suspect that this special alloy could be Plato´s orichalcum: it was very rare, it sparkled like gold, it could be made from one single natural ore („natural copper mineral“), but it was so difficult to produce that also in our time no scientist could reproduce the process ( which in my opinion must contain certain special heating and cooling processes of the ready pieces) to get the same golden pieces as they were found in the tombs. May be that this knowledge was lost after the destruction of Atlantis.

Ulf


IP: 217.1.61.191
 
Brig
Member   posted 11-06-2002 18:11           
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O.K. now lets summerize this. We have finally, more or less, reached agreement that Orichalcum is some form of copper...Right? If we have formed that concensis what are we to make of it?
IP: 205.188.208.40
 
Brig
Member   posted 11-06-2002 18:17           
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Seems to me that if Atlantis used that many multi millions of tons of copper on the homeland this should make locating it easier. We have satellights and special ships that can detect mineral deposits on the ocean floor. Such a fantastic larder of pure copper should be detectable...right? Find someone who'd be willing to explore that possibility from just before the Pillars and run eastwardly til the instruments jump off the table, so to speak. Am I nuts, or what???
IP: 205.188.208.40
 
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
Member   posted 11-07-2002 05:17           
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Dear Ulf colleague:
My greetings. We agree. I have not meant that the "oreikhalkos" were only "copper". I suppose that not known to explain to me correctly. As You already know, I do not dominate the English language well. It is to me very difficult to make understand me in another language that is not the Spanish. That is the reason for which most of the times my words and my argumentations are misinterpreted. I will try to explain the best thing than it can in ahead.

As far as the "oreikhalkos" which I have meant are that etimológicamente it means "mountain copper" or "it copper mountainous". It is obvious that simple copper is not common copper or. The fact that Plato and other authors of the antiquity talked about this type of metal as "mountain copper" already says us that it was another metal different from the copper, but that by its general aspect and its characteristics, had to be very similar to copper.

Something yes are clear. Serving dish describes to this metal with "sparkles" like the "fire", which without a doubt says that this metal was of red and yellow or red a color between yellowish, like the "fire", that is to say, bsatnte to us similar to gold, but more reddish. Here in Spain they have appeared several impressive jewels of End of the Age of the Bronze or time tartessika with that same aspect of yellowish red color like the "fire". They have been classified like gold. Nevertheless, more recent studies have demonstrated than some of these jewels were of a type of copper. More likely the type of copper of which you speak.

However, according to Plato, are certain that the "oreikhalkos" were the most valuable metal after gold, but Plato does not say at any moment that outside rare nor little. In fact, it affirms that one was by very many sites of Atlantis that is, that were very abundant. It does not have to be interpreted that outside the valued metal more after littler or rare gold because outside. Plato affirms that the "oreikhalkos" were very abundant in Atlantis. Therefore, his he was worth, that is to say, what him he made valuable very for atlanteans, he would not be the one that outside a rare or little metal but its own characteristics and their coloration, which dismissed "sparkles like the fire".

According to I create the metal that Plato he describes like "oreikhalkos", would be then, a type of "mountain copper" (what that would have to be interpreted because was extracted of mines located in mountainous regions) as he himself aims obtained from multiple sites of Atlantis. It does not seem that a rare nor little metal outside. Nevertheless I think that if we followed a ethymological and linguistic reasoning, we could conclude that if "khalkos" defined primitively to the copper, the "oreikhalkos" would be because a derivative of "khalkos", to which "orei" would be added to him mopheme ("mountain ", "mountainous"), to differentiate it from the simple one" copper natural ". It is very possible that the "oreikhalkos" were in fact a type of bronze, more likely the bronze that was used in the minting of some Roman currencies and that the archaeologists classify like "oricalcum". It is a type of bronze or brass that is mixture of copper (80%) and tin (20%), which that sometimes has a color similar to gold and with ignited tonalities more or red yellowish. On the other hand, if anlizamos a little logic of description that gives Plato us, we observed as the wall or outer circuit of the Acropolis were covered with "Khalkos" (I believe that it must be interpreted in this case as "it copper"), the outer waist with" kassiteros "(tin) and the wall or waist that surrounded to the same Acropolis with" oreikhalkos "(bronze)

First, Khalkos (it copper), later, Kassiteros (tin), and finally the sum or mixes of both, the oreikhalkos that is, the bronze. All this is not more than propose a preliminary hipótesis.

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


--------------------------------------------------

"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------


Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com



[This message has been edited by Georgeos Diaz-Montexano (edited 11-07-2002).]

IP: 80.35.163.54
 
Roland Juli
Member   posted 11-08-2002 16:47           
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Wow! This discussion is brilliant. Thank you, one and all, for your contributions.
Ulf wrote:


quote:
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1) It was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island
2) In the days of Solon and Plato it was known only by name, but was not used any more
3) In the old days it was more precious than anything, except gold
4) It covered the walls of the acropolis
5) It covered the walls and pillars and floors of the temple
6) It sparkled like fire
7) It was used to make a pillar, on which the first kings inscribed the laws given by Poseidon, and over which pillar during their assembly every 5 or 6 years the ten kings sacrificed a bull, letting run down the blood over the inscription.
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Erick wrote:


quote:
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It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Georgeos wrote:


quote:
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In Greek the root "püro" was used to denominate to the "same fire" and all the resemblance and derivative. In fact, this same root, appears in voices related to the color of the fire or what is of "yellowish red" color, it is to say between "reddish" and "yellow". It is clear that Plato was speaking to us of a metal that corresponded perfectly with the "khalkos" name or root, that is, of "copper". The reflections and the color of copper are exactly "reddish yellowish", like the "fire". The copper is very similar in its coloration to gold, but with more reddish reflections like the fire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I never agreed with the hypothesis that amber is Orichalcum. Why would anyone plate a wall with a material that degrades when exposed to the weather? If a gem, mineral, or metal were not durable, if it disintegrates easily when exposed, and in addition if it were scarce and valuable, then you'll put it in indoors, but not outdoors. Besides, no one considers amber all that valuable today. Why would it have been considered valuable back then? Same goes with pyrite (fool's gold). Not durable. It crumbles. Not valuable, it is very common. Besides, how are you going to cover or plate a wall with amber or pyrite? How are you going to make a pillar out of it?

Think of gold leaf. Gold leaf is used to decorate exterior surfaces, like capitol buildings, domes, mosques. It does not tarnish or oxidize easily. Gold is an amazing material. I remember seeing aircraft windows electroplated with gold. Makes an excellent windshield defroster. You just add a little electrical current to the window surface, and it keeps it warm enough so that no ice collects. Distributes the heat thoroughly over the entire windshield. Was it the Airbus A300 that had this design? Can't remember which aircraft I was working on that had this feature, it was an Airbus or a Boeing. The electroplated gold windshields were also naturally tinted. Low glare qualities.

So you have to figure this material is durable and practical, probably a metal, since metals can be cast into pillars, and they can be hammered and turned into a plate or a foil which would easily cover a wall. That has to be part of what makes it valuable.

If your linguistic analysis is correct, "oreikhalkos" is a natural ore ("Mountain copper," "natural copper"). It seems like the Greek root "orei-" is the root of the word "ore." That suggests a metal copper ore. If Orichalcum is a copper ore, then this copper ore must be alloyed with some other mineral(s) or metal(s). Metals are not found pure in nature, they are only found as alloyed substances.

What makes a metal precious or valuable? Scarcity. Beauty. Functionality, durability, strength.

I just can't imagine covering the innermost wall of a sacred Atlantean temple or shrine with iron or pure copper or silver or some other material that corrodes, leaving rust stains or green copper-oxide stains or black silver-oxide stains on the walls and on the ground.

Ulf wrote:


quote:
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Now back to the „oreikhalkos“. As I wrote in my posting from 10-25-2002, there are special copper ores which contain more than 3% arsenic, up to 6%. These ores are very rare, and the melting is more dangerous, because exposed to the air the heated arsenic can oxydize, and the arsenic oxyde is volatile and very poisonous. Copper can only solve up to 5,1% arsenic; when the arsenic content is higher, the excess is precipitating within the metal during the cooling of the melt, which makes the alloy still harder. Daggers of such composition were found very rarely, but due to the surface corrosion they had tarnished to an attractive golden colour. This is why I suspect that this special alloy could be Plato´s orichalcum: it was very rare, it sparkled like gold, it could be made from one single natural ore („natural copper mineral“), but it was so difficult to produce that also in our time no scientist could reproduce the process ( which in my opinion must contain certain special heating and cooling processes of the ready pieces) to get the same golden pieces as they were found in the tombs. May be that this knowledge was lost after the destruction of Atlantis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am intrigued by this discussion of "arsenic copper" (arsenic bronze, an arsenic-copper alloy). And the discussion of some sort of natural-occurring gold ore. Is it possible Orichalcum was a copper alloy, maybe an alloy of gold and copper?

I have to dismiss the suggestion that Orichalcum is electrum (white gold, silver mixed with gold). Silver oxidizes to black, so silver would leave black stains on an exterior wall. Besides, the color is all wrong. Like Georgeos says, this Orichalcum has a reddish-yellowish look, or a reddish-gold look. There's no "red" in electrum. Electrum looks whitish, or if you add enough gold to it, light yellow.

Stainless steel is the wrong color, too.

So, it seems y'all are beginning to agree on a bronze. A "bronze" is a copper alloy which can contain tin, antimony, phosphorus, arsenic or other materials. Or gold, I suppose.

Oldreds says:


quote:
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However, the most probable natural alloy for orichalcum is probably the so-called "Black Hills Gold," which is a natural alloy of gold and copper, a red gold. Images can be found at and http://goldmountainmining.com/blachilgolhe2.html

http://goldmountainmining.com/blachilgolhe2.html The gold can have a red, pink-rose, green, or yellow luster.
I do note that Jim Allen, author of Atlantis: the Andean Solution, reports that orichalcum is a natural alloy of gold and copper found only in the Andes. Where he got this, I have no idea. See http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis/challengethera.htm for more on this.


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I am inclined to agree with Oldreds.


Orichalcum is some fiery metal alloy, probably containing copper, which would make it a "bronze."

A gold-copper alloy meets all the requirements:

• It meets the linguistic requirements of being a natural ore containing copper.
• It wasn't being used in the days of Solon and Plato.
• You can cover walls and floors with it.
• You can make a pillar out of it.
• It has the right fiery color.
• It's still scarce enough today to be considered a precious material.

And for me, intuition always plays a key role.

After all this discussion, I must admit that my intuition is still telling me the same thing. I must say, without any real shred of supporting evidence whatsoever, that I still believe that Orichalcum is a gold and copper alloy.




IP: 66.42.95.201
 
Roland Juli
Member   posted 11-08-2002 16:54           
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rebelfilms wrote:

quote:
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i have a feeling it comes from something like sandstone, dont ask me how but i and several other people with past life memories of
??Atlantis??? and this is what we all subconciously relate this to.
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I am very curious about this. I don't think you are seeing Orichalcum, I think you are seeing something else.

Would you write more detail about what you are seeing, and what these other people are seeing? I suspect you are looking at a building material that was commonly used at the time.

I have never really thought about what building materials the Atlanteans used.


IP: 66.42.95.201
 
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
Member   posted 11-08-2002 17:31           
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Dear Mr. Roland Juli:
Are clear that for You the intuition you are worth more than the reason and the common sense. My ethymological and linguistic analysis demonstrates, without doubt, that the word "oreikhalkos", is translated like "copper of mountain" of orei- "mountain", "mountainous" and khalkos "copper".

I will not repeat what already I have written in this same topic. I believe that other colleagues and i myself, already we have given tests more than reasonable of than the "oreikhalkos" were not no "gold" alloy and "copper", but a mineral of perhaps copper that it was extracted of mountains, a type of bronze.

If this mysterious metal of Atlantis were a gold "alloy species" and "copper" as You create, on the basis of their intuition, the Greeks had would have denominated it with the name of khrüsoKhalkos (chryso-chalcos) that is, "gold-copper" or "copper auriferous"

------------------
Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


--------------------------------------------------

"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------

Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com



IP: 80.35.163.54
 
Roland Juli
Member   posted 11-08-2002 17:32           
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rajesh wrote:

quote:
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(1) There can be a case that the mines of Orichalcum may be found only in Atlantis.
(2) Nothing so far seems to have come out which may exactly match with the description of Orichalcum.
(3) It is quite possible that all Atlantis or its major parts may be remaining on the ground during the whole tenure of the ice age, when the sea water level may be low. So the mining of Orichalcum may be possible only during the ice ages.
(4) With the withdrawal of the ice ages and an increase of sea level, those Orichalcum ore mines may be going under the sea. As it is the case in present days.
(5) So those mines may have an unique opportunity to get submerged under sea water for many thousands of years and then coming clear above the ground.
(6) Those mines may be basically of Copper based ores and may have some mixture with Zink or Tin ores.
(7) Those ores may be reacting slowly for thousands of years with the ingredients of marine water, may be with compounds of Na, K, Ca, Br, P or some other chemicals. So that Copper based ore may be converting in to raw Orichalcum.
(Cool For example Phosphorus though highly corrosive by itself, mixed with certain metal in higher than normal percentage may form a strong and permanent anti-corrosive protective film around the grain boundaries of the base metal. There may have to be a fixed percentage of Phosphorus. In lower than the desired ratio, the film may not remain protective and in higher percentage the film itself may rupture and form own granules.
(9) This or similar process may call for higher knowledge of Metallurgy and Chemistry. Atlanteans may be in possession of that desired knowledge. Hence the shining like flame of anti-corrosive Orichalcum.

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I agree with you, Rajesh, we could use a metallurgist right about now.

If Orichalcum is an unusual new alloy that has been invented (or rediscovered, as the case may be), then it's just a matter of matching up the right modern name with the ancient name.

But if Orichalcum really was a natural ore, then probably it is a known entity today, and we should be able to figure it out logically.

IP: 66.42.95.201


 
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2007, 09:31:42 pm »

Maureen
New Member   posted 11-14-2002 11:46           
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Wow, this thread is very fascinating and I am humbled by the amount of knowledge in all of your words. I have a few questions and please excuse my...um...lack of knowledge here. First question: If all of you believe that this "substance" was a metal, where are the theories coming from that it may have been amber? Is this theory coming from the description of the substance's color? I am sure with all of the knowledge displayed in this forum that you all know amber is not a metal...
Also, and again I apologize for my lack of knowledge in this area, are we sure it was a metal that Plato spoke of?
I am just here to learn  and I am thanking you in advance for your patience
IP: 12.247.173.173
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 11-14-2002 14:39           
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Maureen,
As far as I know, Orichalcum being amber was first suggested by the German pastor and archeologist Juergen Spanuth (1907 – 1998). During archeological studies he found amazing similarities between the inscriptions on the temple walls of Medinet Habu, Egypt, and Plato´s Atlantis story. Therefore he considered the „Sea Peoples“ invading Egypt about 1150 BC being Atlanteans. From the pictures on the temple walls he found out, that the swords, helmets and ships used by the „Sea Peoples“ were those common in Northern Europe during the late Bronze Age. Also the inscriptions said that the home of those invaders was swallowed by the sea, and its location had been „at the 9th arch“, that means far in the north. He found that a great island not far from the tiny German island Heligoland (near Hamburg) had sunk at the end of the Bronze Age due to a great flood. It was always called „Holy Island“ which name remained in the name of Heligoland, and should have been the residence of a king.

In this region, during the Bronze Age, amber was dug out of the ground and traded to all mediterranean countries.(Up to our time you can find amber there, while most of it is now coming from the Baltic Sea). This stuff was very appreciated for jewels and was nearly as precious as gold. It has a red golden colour, and it can be solved in oil to make a varnish by which could be covered e.g. the walls of the temple, the city walls („which in the sun sparkled like fire“), pillars and all the things, which according to Plato were made from „Orichalcum“. This was the origin of the amber story. Spanuth wrote it 1953 in his book „Atlantis decyphered“.

Ulf


IP: 62.225.213.160
 
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
Member   posted 11-14-2002 15:55           
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Dear Ulf:
The hypothesis of the famous Spanuth are very interesting and peculiar, but scientist cannot be maintained seriously. If he is taken into account the name used by Plato, and the descriptions that all the authors do of the antiquity when they describe "oreikhalkós", note, perfectly, that the old ones talked about a metal species.

I do not believe that the old ones were as stupid as not to know how to differentiate between a metal and ambar. Ambar could be confused by its structure with a vitreous paste species, but never with a metal.

I feel It, but the hypothesis of Spanuth, is not more than a simple speculation without common documentary nor felt base.

The "orichalcum" were, without a doubt some, a type of metal that was extracted of mountains, as it affirms Plato well, and was very abundant in Atlantis.

------------------
Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


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"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

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Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com



IP: 80.35.163.54
 
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano
Member   posted 11-14-2002 15:55           
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Dear Ulf:
The hypothesis of the famous Spanuth are very interesting and peculiar, but scientist cannot be maintained seriously. If he is taken into account the name used by Plato, and the descriptions that all the authors do of the antiquity when they describe "oreikhalkós", note, perfectly, that the old ones talked about a metal species.

I do not believe that the old ones were as stupid as not to know how to differentiate between a metal and ambar. Ambar could be confused by its structure with a vitreous paste species, but never with a metal.

I feel It, but the hypothesis of Spanuth, is not more than a simple speculation without common documentary nor felt base.

The "orichalcum" were, without a doubt some, a type of metal that was extracted of mountains, as it affirms Plato well, and was very abundant in Atlantis.

------------------
Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano


--------------------------------------------------

"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------


Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com



IP: 80.35.163.54
 
Brig
Member   posted 11-14-2002 18:10           
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Ulf: I don't know the original source of the Amber theory but it definitely predates 1953. Professor Whipple of Marietta college refered to it as amber back in the late 40s.
IP: 152.163.188.33
 
Maureen
New Member   posted 11-15-2002 06:16           
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Ulf, thank you for that information. I am still confused...why would amber and different types of metals be used in the same discussion? Hmmmmmm me thinks me need to do some more reading
Thanks again
IP: 12.247.173.173
 
Perseus
Member   posted 11-15-2002 15:26           
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Greeks were familiar with amber and its characteristics, a scientist like Plato couldn't make such mistake.
IP: 213.16.150.138
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 11-15-2002 19:57           
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Perseus,
That´s my opinion, too. But Spanuth´s opinion was: the Egypt priest, who told the story to Solon, did not know that the stuff, which was mentioned in the old narration or pillar inscription was amber, there was only written: nearly as precious as gold.
Ulf

IP: 62.225.215.169
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 11-17-2002 06:46           
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Ishtar,
You wrote about the Amber Routes in ancient times from the Baltic Sea shores to the Mediterranean countries. They lead mostly along the big rivers, like the Oder – the Danube, because the water transport was always easier than the transport over land. There were small boats which could go far upwards the rivers. A short way across the watersheds the goods had to be transported over land.

But in addition to the well known Baltic amber, the North Sea coast along Germany was also a mayor source of amber during the Bronze Age. When in 1968 at the mouth of the river Eider a dam was built, the excavators brought up enormous quantities of amber in pieces up to the size of a baby´s head. This North Sea amber was traded on the other Amber Route along the rivers Rhine and Rhone to Massilia (Marseille, France), or along the sea coasts to the strait of Gibraltar. To avoid the stormy Bay of Biscaya and to shorten the way, there existed still another route through Southern France, along the rivers Gironde and Aude, where in 1662 the „Canal du Midi“ was built along the old pass. It is said that in ancient times the watershed was much lower than today (169 meters above sea level) due to the slow rising of the Pyrenees. The Phoenicians had their „secret water way to the north“ on this route to transport tin by ship from Britain to the Mediterranean. Later emperor Augustus in Roman times planned to built a canal connection along this way, because in the meantime it had become unpassable by ship.

Due to the frequent trade amber was very well known during the Bronze Age up to Plato´s times, therefore it is very improbable that he should describe amber as „orichalcum, which is known only by name“
To cover the city walls with amber varnish, as Spanuth and others suggested, is still more improbable. Up to our time amber varnish has been used as an expensive varnish for sealing parquet floors, music instruments, wooden boats and the like. But the varnishing of city walls, to let them „sparkle like fire“, as Plato has described for orichalcum, can be excluded for two reasons:
1) amber varnish in a thin layer does not have a red golden colour, but is transparent and lets the colour of the material beneath shine through.
2) Amber decomposes relatively fast when exposed to sun light.

Ulf


IP: 217.1.61.136
 
Ishtar
Member   posted 11-17-2002 09:12           
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2) Amber decomposes relatively fast when exposed to sun light.
Yes it does..........I agree with what you posted........

Amber is my fav and I had been researching it..

I think I will continue......For some reason I still believe there is a key here..

Seems all roads led to dead ends.

So I use my imagination.......


IP: 66.72.14.64
 
oscar
Member   posted 02-24-2003 04:58           
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I agree with the guy who said orichalchum was an special alloy. We have a jigzaw puzzle difficult to solve. Jim Allen site ain't good but the information he says must be listened. There are hooks in Bolivia using an alloy copper+niquel which requiered a temperature of 1927 C done by "primitive" tiahuanaquenses. Problem is in modern times we can only produced that temperature in 1930! Something National Geographic magazine didn't say in one of the lasts issues about Bolivia.Natural combinations exist in Bolivia (copper+gold+tin or silver+copper+tin). Bolivian archeologists and geologists can confirm this. We got to know about language to realize what we are talking about. There are people here who give too much information about Greek. But we're talking a very old story here and certain we can't ignore languages called proto-greek in our analysis. In fact the word Tiahuanaco means "the place of Titi and Anaku" which is TIN. Linguists have explain similarities between quechua and aymara with hebrew also. In fact a Toscana descent (Natalia Tariffi) mentions etrurian came from America and is the study of other scholars.
Pure tines very rare in nature. You gotta read David Forbes (Researches on the Mineralogy of South America). Pure tin came from the cassiterit deposits, this was not the result of forest fire,because its needed something more complex, combination with carbon (SnO2+C=CO2+Sn)and purify it. Tipuani river had gold and cassiterite and metalic tin. The bronze found in a rod was 88% copper and 11% tin just like in Middle East and Europe. You need tin to make an alloy with copper to create noble bronze. You gotta read the specialist in metalurgy, Erland Nordenskiöld (The Copper and Bronze Ages in South America).
Not only Allen but Zecharia Sitchin are aware not only Tiahuanaco in Bolivia but Pisco in Peru (with the symbol of a trident)were important places in the past, visited by many other civilizations.
We tend to forget the world change for Christ sake! It doesn't matter how much you mention different places in actual planispheres. Not only gotta look for a place underwater but the whole map is wrong. What is now Atlantic Ocean could be part of Indicus and Arabic Sea. If we spin the globe in order to make South Pole to be up, Egypt would be down and in the middle (as they thought South was up),and we see Africa in a big body of water, Indnesia islands to the left, South America to the right. www.earty360.com/his-atlantis.html
But this is an example only. I'm not quite sure about the thiongs the ortodoxs may say about the old of Pangea and that separation of continents were so slow as they are today. In fact conditions in the past must've been pretty different.
paranormal.about.com/cs/ancientanomalies/index-2.htm
See the subtitles "catastrophism ans ancient anomalies" and "anomalies of Tethys and Gulf of Aden".
Many people disregard the idea because the details said by Plato supposedly couldn't happen in S.America. Presence of elefants for example.Elephant was worshipped as Chaac Mol in Mexico; an elephant-toy was taken out of Jalapa museum because too many questions aroused. This photograph is not a tapir with smaller ears: www.sitchin.com/elephant.htm
Unfortunately you gotta search other elephant designs made before Columbus in other books examining Colombia and Ecuador. The same is true in Bolivia.
Horses have been found in America before Columbus. So there are many things we ignore about the past. In the case of metals, we gotta look carefully in South America before disregarding Jim Allen's idea, specially because those alloys can be found in natural form.Jim Allen mentions certain stones (red, black and white) that are still there which is also truth. The analysis he did measuring the place is exactly what Plato mentions. You can also read the work of other author saying the same. Vincent Bridges (A monument at the end of the times) and George Erikson (antrophologist author of Atlantis in the Andes).
IP: 200.188.186.85
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 02-24-2003 11:14           
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oscar,
You wrote about alloys molten in Bolivia, which are composed from gold and nickel, copper-gold-tin and silver-copper-tin.
Do you know which colour these alloys have? Plato´s orichalcum sparkled in the sun like fire, that means it must have been red-golden. The last alloy, in my opinion, will not have this colour.

Ulf

IP: 62.104.212.98
 
oscar
Member   posted 02-24-2003 12:43           
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To be honest, I don't remember, Ulf. To me this shinning like fire it doesn't mean necessarily red-gold as you interpret. But anyway, to me it's not a dogma. I think a better research gotta be made. Maybe the books I quoted or others shall provide photographs or whoever is interested -like you are- search by internet. The very fact is not a common alloy is itself something worth to be investigated, isn't it?
IP: 200.188.186.85
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 03-01-2003 12:12           
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oscar,
in an article of Heather Lechtman from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge/ Mass., I read about copper-silver gold alloys in the Andes:

"Copper-silver alloys, among the most versatile and widely used for sheet metal production in Ecuador, Peru and Mexico, develop enriched silver surfaces as they are hammered and annealed into thin sheet. Similarly, smiths treated the surfaces of thin sheet hammered from ternary copper-silver-gold alloys to deplete the surfaces in copper and silver, thereby enriching them in gold."

The golden colour of these metal sheets could be produced by hammering of a gold-containing copper alloy! This is an interesting aspect, but it will be necessary to know more about the percentage of gold in this alloy, and the time since this technique was used.

Ulf


IP: 62.104.212.91
 
Ulf Richter
Member   posted 03-05-2003 03:13           
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For the next 6 weeks I will be away from home, but afterwards I try to get contact with the archaeo-metallurgical institute of a nearby university to get more informations about the alloys we were discussing in this thread.
Ulf

IP: 217.185.76.16
 
oscar
Member   posted 03-10-2003 07:35           
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Well, Ulf, first my advice is take a look how scientists measure time and don't trust them.
IP: 200.188.186.112
 
oscar
Member   posted 03-10-2003 07:40           
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In the following Hawass'friends site, I discussed the thing about time and other un-ortodoxox topics. As a result they don't let me in again in order to write and erased some of my replies. Yet you can read some of them even now. Please go to:
egyptologist.org/discuss/messages/8/1766.html?1014780427
Please, notice instead of answering, the "last word" available to read is theirs, and talking about socratic methods but very few things in order to have a scientific argument.
IP: 200.188.186.112
 
atalante
Member   posted 05-29-2003 10:00           
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The primitive root for orichalc was "khalk" (which Georgeos has proposed above to mean "shining rock or mineral". That rock was probably an imitation of the golden color of the sun. (Of course, during the metal age, the word khalkos quickly evolved and became associated with copper.)
Marble retains its luster indefinitely, unlike metals which tend to corrode. So its logical that a marble temple would be the centerpiece of Atlantis.

During the last 10 years, a museum has been opened in Tunisia to commemorate old quarries for a golden marble, called Marmor Mumidicum.

Evidently the oldest known (and surviving)application of Marmor Numidicum on monuments was a large altar at the cemetary of ancient Smitthus (near Carthage), dating to the 4th century BC.

But after Rome conquored Carthage, there was a great demand for this marble throughout the Roman empire.

Here is a link to that new museum, showing samples of the shiny marble which was know in antiquity as Marmor Numidicum.
http://chimtou.com/Raum3.html




IP: 198.81.26.14
 
oscar
Member   posted 05-29-2003 19:11           
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I said it before somewhere else and I repeat it again: it's an error to assume because the story was made by Plato we should start from Latin or Greek as a source of the linguistic root. An alloy was known by the incas with the same name qoricallco and some linguists think quechua has roots in many languages, even proto-greek and etrurian.Hence, forget Latin & Greek for a while and search into the past, whoever can!
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
Duane
Member   posted 05-29-2003 19:47           
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To all who want to know what orichalcum was/is -- check out: http://ourworld.cs.com/duanekmccullough/v3c10.htm
Entry 21 explains.

Duane McCullough www.spiritofatlantis.com


[This message has been edited by Duane (edited 05-29-2003).]

IP: 64.12.96.12
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 05-29-2003 19:53           
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Someone here apparently doesn't like scientists. Can anyone guess who it is?
Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


IP: 205.185.133.118
 
oscar
Member   posted 05-30-2003 04:22           
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Can anyone guess who's the one who choses what scientists to believe? Hmmm? Oh, wisdom of the one who knows everything about science! Not even the scientists would dare to make such a statement.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
Pytheas
Member   posted 05-30-2003 04:23           
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I agree with Rajesh.
Those mines may be basically of Copper based ores and may have some mixture with Zinc or Tin ores. This alloy would not oxidise.
I was thinking of a sentence in the text of HERCULIS ATHLA DUODECIM AB EVRYSTHEO IMPERATA
( http://www.loyno.edu/~wemajor/coursestuff/texts/hyg30.htm)

“qui mala aurea Hesperidum servare solitus erat, ad montem Atlantem interfecit, et Eurystheo regi mala attulit”

Could it mean “The bad gold (orichalcum , gold alloy) that was only to be found in the mountains bordering to the Atlantic Ocean which under the reign of Evrystheo was badly uplifted”?


IP: 139.58.232.1
 
oscar
Member   posted 05-30-2003 04:28           
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In the theme "Was Atlantis a Phoenician city?" guess who's the one who wrote "I have to admit that I have not researched much about Cyprus other than the Phoenician aspects", I must say we need to be a little more humble to suggest he knows too much about science, don't you agree. Because it requires stretching the horizon further than Phoenicia, even where linguists and filologists face a huge wall!
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 05-30-2003 08:18           
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Oscar,

quote:
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Well, Ulf, first my advice is take a look how scientists measure time and don't trust them.
Please, notice instead of answering, the "last word" available to read is theirs, and talking about socratic methods but very few things in order to have a scientific argument.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, Oscar, at least you're not bitter.

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


[This message has been edited by Erick Wright (edited 05-30-2003).]

IP: 199.35.103.111
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 05-30-2003 08:57           
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Oscar,
The "wall" you speak of is not nearly as "huge" as you would have everyone believe.

When I responded to atalante in the thread "Was Atlantis a Phoenician City?" and said "I have to admit that I have not researched much about Cyprus other than the Phoenician aspects" it was because, as I have said numerous times before, the result of my research and translation has been that a great deal of the descriptions found in the metaphrastic translation of Plato's Timaeus and Critias contain striking parallels to the Phoenician culture. Therefore, right now, until that portion of my research is exhausted, when I investigate any person, place, or thing, it will be in relation to its possible Phoenician aspects or involvement. When that investigation has been exhausted, then, and only then, will I broaden my search and begin to investigate other cultures. Its called focus. I am not so focused, however, as to just dismiss any viable theory or information that should happen to pass my way. That is why I have acknowledged several of the things that atalante, Ulf, and others, have written to me that pertained to my own research.
That is the very reason that I come here to this forum. Viable information, that pertains to my research, has come to me from others on this forum. Sometimes the saying does hold true that "two heads are better than one". A second head can also, however, cause a person to lose their focus and get "side-tracked". So, that is my challenge; to allow the viable information to get through to me without allowing myself to lose focus.

Respectfully,

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


IP: 199.35.103.111
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 05-30-2003 10:04           
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Everyone,
Does anyone else here feel, as I do, that the topic of orichalcum has been pretty well exhausted?

Oscar has written:


quote:
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I said it before somewhere else and I repeat it again: it's an error to assume because the story was made by Plato we should start from Latin or Greek as a source of the linguistic root. An alloy was known by the incas with the same name qoricallco and some linguists think quechua has roots in many languages, even proto-greek and etrurian.Hence, forget Latin & Greek for a while and search into the past, whoever can!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The story of Atlantis comes to us from Plato, a Greek, and it was written down by him in the Greek language, therefore, it is only appropriate to examine the etymology of the word "oreichalcos" in relation to its source - the ancient Greek language (Attic dialect). To examine the etymology of the word in any other language is to give credence to the speculation that a word with phonetic similarity might have its origin in 'Atlantean'. This would be a speculation with no basis in fact, as no physical evidence, or example, of an 'Atlantean' language has ever been discovered. This would also be a speculation based upon the assumption that the 'Atlantean' language was not an already known and well-documented language, whose association has not yet been connected to 'Atlantis'. This would be a very bad and misleading (I believe) assumption to make.

The etymology of the word "oreichalcos" has been examined in relation to the ancient Greek Attic dialect, by both Georgeos and myself, and the result of that was this:

Georgeos:


quote:
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In texts of Plato - written in Greek it is denominated to this metal like, "oreikhalkós" (oreichalcos), which is pronounced like "orichalcos". Literalemente, this voice means, "copper of mountain", "orei", "mountain", and "khalkós", "receives".
Plato are not speaking of any "gold" alloy and "silver" or of "gold" and "receives", nor of no other strange metal alloy. There is no "mystery". Plato to only speaks us of a simple "Mountain copper", that is to say, a type of "natural copper" that was obtained directly from the mines.

As it demonstrates it in another fragment of the dialogue of Kritias, where it clarifies that the "oreichalcos" or "mountain copper" were obtained directly from mosntañas.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Myself (Erick):


quote:
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According to the 7th edition Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1997),

quote:
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Chalcos - copper, Lat.aes, Hom., etc.; called in reference to its color, erythros, Il.:--copper was the first metal wrought for use...hence chalcos came to be used for metal in general; and, when men learnt to work iron, chalcos was used for sideros, and chalceus came to mean a blacksmith. Chalceos also meant bronze (i.e. copper alloyed with tin), not brass (i.e. copper alloyed with zinc, which was a later invention), and this was its sense when applied to arms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, based upon the etymology of the Greek word "oreichalcos" we should conclude that Plato was referring to one of the two meanings found above - either "mountain copper", as Georgeos suggested, or "mountain metals", the more 'generic' meaning that I have suggested. The reason that I subscribe to the more 'generic' interpretation is because Plato wrote (to paraphrase) that, at that time (i.e. the time of Atlantis), it had only the one name, but during his (Plato's) time it had more names.

When copper, its derivatives, and its derivatives' constituent metals, are grouped under the more generic term "mountain metals", it allows for the later "break-out" into more names (copper, bronze, tin, zinc, etc.). This, and the Greek-English Lexicon's definition are the reasons that I have proposed the more generic meaning of "mountain metals" (under which category "natural copper" occasions to fall).

If nobody has anything additional to add in regards to the etymology of the Greek word "oreichalcos", then I am probably not going to post anything else in this thread and will most likely close out this thread.

Respectfully,

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


 
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2007, 09:33:02 pm »

oscar
Member   posted 05-30-2003 20:40           
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Erick, don't misunderstand me. Whatever you wrote evidently shows you're someone who wants to discover the secrets of the things and fully investigate. Yet,speciality will take an eternity of your life and you have the risk of becoming narrow minded in that particular Babel. It is not quite simple your argument just cos the man was Greek, even if some people would discuss with you if the account was even taken from Solon and eventually from Egypt.It doesn't matter to me at all that argument. I consider it superficial to extreme. I'm not a Greek man, yet even in Spanish we use the word "personalidad" and eventually you're gonna find that word comes from Greek "persona" or character meaning a mask to say something.Yet, it's an error to think that is the beginning of the story cos that very Greek "origin" must be studied independent of whatever hypothesis you want to accept or deny. And then you will find it was a proto-greek or a proto-latin and the story unravels when you keep going into the past. When I say huge wall I'm using the words of linguists, so I don't wanna to give the impression we know as you give cos they admit it honestly and I don't think I'm talking with a linguist.What we know about Etrurians or Guanches or Gypsies is a huge wall, ethnic and language and I can say the same about rongorongo in Pascua island or quiche from the Mayas, nahuatl from aztecs, quechua from Incas, aymara from the people of Bolivia.In fact we are starting to know a bit more now.What we know about the all so study Egyptian hieroglyphs still has many mysteries and even Sumerian language can be interpreted in more than a way.So, you already quoted what you think orichalcum is. We understood all right. Now,qoricallque is not just almost an homophonous of that word but it's a mixture of metals and that is not just a coincidence. Jim Allen has a point when he says the very name ATL and ANTIS belong to Central and South America. If you prefer to ignore that particular evidence cos you're very occupied in the details of Phoenician culture, it's your respectful affair.And yes, we like to hear science here, not just the one of your choice but many other "pieces" of science.Keep ong going that path maybe you can transform yourself into a ciclope. I rather use omatidians of a fly. Don't worry if there's an specific focus requiring details, I'll know what to check either.That's more simple.In fact it doesn't constitute something difficult cos the paradigmas are pretty much the same after many years. Talking about Phoenicia, can you tell us why the translation of the inverted E with time transform into Greek H used by Hebrews?
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 05-30-2003 20:50           
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I could've ask you about the word Meshwesh you talk about in other theme and wondering about Arab implications, I could've ask you what is exactly your knowledge about a quechua homophonous and indeed I would probably received silence or other thing as an answer or saying "that's another thing belonging to other place". Is it? But I guess it's not worth it to discuss about it cos it doesn't belong to your particular interest and we have to disregard it as "out of science" if I understood your irony, right. I'm just giving back the ball to you just to give you a taste of things you won't know cos is beyond some limits, right?
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 05-30-2003 22:46           
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Oscar,

quote:
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Talking about Phoenicia, can you tell us why the translation of the inverted E with time transform into Greek H used by Hebrews?
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Reply: No, I can't, because the Hebrews wrote using their own alphabet, not the Greek's.

In order to know the meaning of the word "oreichalcos", that is to say, in order to know how Plato intended the word to be translated/interpreted, it is only necessary to know what the word meant during Plato's lifetime, not during the time when proto-Greek or proto-Latin were spoken.

So, you're not Greek, you don't speak Greek, but your language uses a word whose root was borrowed from the Greek language. So what?

Oscar, I would say that you are focused on the Theory of Atlantis in Bolivia, but that would be an understatement, because, in reality, you are fixated on that theory and on the work of Jim Allen. I think you have that fixation because you want more than anything in the world for Atlantis to be in Bolivia, or, at the very least, in South America. You seem to want it so bad that you're willing to throw common sense, logic, and reason all out the window. The arguments against Atlantis in the New World are so many and varied that I just don't have the time to list them. I would say to you "Do your homework. Research it for yourself", but I know that you won't so I won't even bother with it.

According to an article found in the Spring 2003 issue of American Archaeology, the oldest human remains, to date, that have been unearthed in the Americas are 13,000 years old and were excavated in Mexico City several decades ago. They have just now begun to study the remains of the group (about 10) of humans that were unearthed, and the first one studied was a female and her remains date to around 11,ooo BCE. She has caucasoid features, not mongoloid like the ancestors of the Indians, which gives more credence to the theory that a separate group arrived earlier than the mongoloid group by way of the Pacific Ocean and then migrated northward. Whenever and wherever the caucasoid group encountered the mongoloid group, the two groups fought and the caucasoid group was eventually, and entirely, wiped out; this is why all indians of the Americas have mongoloid features.

But, I suppose that you will still try to argue that she might have been an 'Atlantean'?

I am so very tired of all of this nonsensical argumentation. I'm going to bed.
Good night, Gracie.

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


IP: 65.238.98.226
 
oscar
Member   posted 05-31-2003 12:00           
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No, no and again no. You're assuming I'm obsessed with Jim Allen's work. Don't judge what you don't know. In fact I told Jim Allen himself his weak points in some of the theory and I would better place Atlantis between Central America and Africa, yet I know your arguments well enough and I don't have any conclusions cos the theme actually it doesn't interest me that much although I'm reasonable informed.
The Hebrews, the Jews, although writing in Hebrew they use the translation of the God's name, the sephardits use the name YHWH while protestants prefered JHWH so you understood what I wanted to say.Of course they have the alphabet of their own which I'm not gonna print here.It's so obvious.
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oscar
Member   posted 05-31-2003 12:07           
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Ready to give up so fast accusing of nonsense? Why? Because if I ask a doctor what it means now the word TANATOS, wouldn't be necessary to search if the origin of that word was known in the past, thousands of years ago? Of course, orichalcos probably meant what you're saying. Yet you have eyes and not understand what I try to say. What I'm saying is the word was very old and had other origin, in fact Plato didn't invent the story but was something happening thousands of years BEFORE him. That's the reason the source of the language can't be set only in Plato's time because the account itself was older. It's your affair if you think this is nonsense argument.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 05-31-2003 12:34           
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It's exactly your Western arrogance and not your knowledge what I do critic. I don't deposit my faith in Jim Allen who's a cartographer working for English Air Force and even his critics recognize his work was very professional regarding Atlantis theory. Search what antropologist George Erikson had to say in his book Atlantis in the Andes or the author Vincent Bridges in his A Monument at the End of the Times.Read Maurice Cotterell's point of view regarding Posnanky work in Bolivia. They ain't amateurs. I also know what Natalia Rosi de Tariffi and Miguel Angel Honorio Mossi as linguists had to say about the issue. I 'd like to share info available about the research done by Enrico Mattievich explaining the source of proto-greek and all that culture coming from America. But you know absolutely anything what I'm talking about and that pisses you off. Go to sleep then, Erick, and be satisfied with the Phoenicia and Greek story.It's not my case,I am never satisfied not even with the things I get to know.A scientist mind should do that, shouldn't it?
By the way, your interpretation of mongoloid races struggling with the other ones is interesting theory, unfortunately as I said,only a naïve mind can believe for sure we can measure time and get easy conclusions, I could've said many details about DNA in that sense or write about different migratory waves in different times and so other participants can give their respectful opinion as well. Yet, it's not truthalltruthandnothingbutthetruth, hence, don't talk like it is. You and me and the rest are providing just theories.Science as you thought it is,it's no more.Have a pleasent and respectful dream!
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
KatieCat
Member   posted 05-31-2003 19:02           
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The Phonecians worshiped the Ashtoreth/Baal god system. Sitchin repeatedly states in his book "The Lost Realms" that it was Baal/Adad who was called "the God of the Mines" in Central and South America. In the still active "Eye of Ra" thread on AR, a fellow who speaks spanish fluently (I presume from South America) reports how the Mayan culture knew the word "Baalam". The whole thing seems to suggest a definate link between the Phonecians and South America.
IP: 198.81.26.14
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-01-2003 05:57           
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I'm the one who wrote that Kathie!
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
Wrapscallion
New Member   posted 06-01-2003 06:28           
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I am new to this board, but i must reply to this one. There is only one place on Planet Earth that has orichalcum in the amounts that is described. The Bolivian Plateau around Lake Titicaca. An absurd idea? Check out http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis.
Being part Native American, hailing from the Deep South, i already knew about the words "atl/itl"(water) and "antis/intis/inti/anti" meaning copper....but did not place them together until this website came along. What do you think, Peter?
IP: 65.73.19.203
 
Wrapscallion
New Member   posted 06-01-2003 06:45           
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The original name of the Andes was.....Antis.......check it out....you'll see for yourself.....
IP: 65.73.19.203
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-01-2003 07:14           
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Wrong person to ask, he doesn't know anything at all not even about his beloved Canada infected with Asian disease! The Toscan linguist Natalia Rosi de Tarifi and the linguist Miguel Angel Honorio Mossi and others already knew long time ago something Mr. Erik doesn't care in this forum: the importance of the languages of Babel. The language ANT is a root. The word ANTimonium or the Italian ANDes (now called Pietole)or the ANDes in SouthAmerica or ANDalucía in Spain.Alchimists used ANTimony and TIN, in Quechua is ANTamonay the same antimony. The quechua language ANDI has been always an elevated valley like in Egyptian language. The araucan indians of Chile -in contact with incas- already knew the word ANTA was also the Sun (like in Egypt ATON). The word for "ax" both in Chile and Sumeria was "BAL"
Erik in this forum thinks is nonsense even to discuss Jim Allen's work regarding Atlantis. I respond it wasn't just Allen's work but many other including linguists (see the topic Phoenician Culture in the title Other Ancient Mysteries in this very forum). Notice the reference to PROTO-SUMERIAN inscriptions found in Peru: www.geocities.com/webatlantis/fuentemagna.htm

IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-01-2003 07:34           
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The link of a metal with another is KIPU in Quechua and CHINU (ch=k)in Aymara. CHIPre and the mythological CHINaras remind us CHAIN-CAIN and Tubal Cain, the ones who knew the secrets of the metals. Craftmen who use gold and silver to cover an inferior metal are "enCHApando" metals because the source of Spanish and Portuguese words are very old in time. TITI from TITIcaca river means TIN and lead or copper.The word haMMER and MALeable also exist in aymara origin MALL and MALLA meaning also lead. TITans of Greek mythology are related to metals, the work of ciclopean giants and TITrambo and TITania meant also the MOON both in Egypt and Greece. I don't think is a happy coincidence our moon is full of LEAD cos I reckon the ancients received some information from above or inspiration if you call it.But Mr. Erik is sleeping at this time and he is not interested in these things, he already discovered the puzzle of Atlantis cos he investigated the piece of the jigzaw of his liking. Lucky him he's gonna print a book deceiving eventual readers.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-01-2003 07:50           
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How much time do we investigate the science called "archeology"? Do you think is having common sense to believe we're gonna find exactly the people we're looking for at the right time in the many leaves of geological strata? Do you think too many investigators are searching IN SITU under the waters of Titicaca lake or in the permament conflict areas of the outskirts in Irak-Turkey were it was supposed to be Eden? Do we really have the right devices to research at the very bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, to search every inch of submerge land to discover the truth...not just about Atlantis but history in general? C'mon guys,we're just starting to know about Chinese Columbus and Hinterland or comapring language from Pascua Island with the writings of Harappa and Mohenjodaro.
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Erick Wright
Member   posted 06-01-2003 16:47           
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Oscar,

quote:
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Mr. Erik is sleeping at this time and he is not interested in these things, he already discovered the puzzle of Atlantis cos he investigated the piece of the jigzaw of his liking. Lucky him he's gonna print a book deceiving eventual readers.
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Now, Oscar, that's just uncalled for. God forbid, I take a couple of days to go do some work at my parents house for them. Should I really need to be ever vigilant, standing by my computer just waiting for your next post?

Regarding your posts, why don't you post some "discoveries" made by REAL scientists? Your "La Fuente Magna" was supposedly discovered in 1968, near Tihuanacu, by a peasant, on the land owned by the man that turned-in the supposed discovery to an archaeologist. The "discovery" was, of course, DISMISSED as a hoax, as these sorts of discoveries usually are. The only attention that the bowl is supposedly receiving, is from the people that are proponants of the several different "Pre-Columbus New World Contact" theories. This would not even begin to constitute "evidence", until the bowl has been examined by REAL scientists. Where's the carbon 12 dating analysis to determine its real age? Where's the microscopic 'patina' analysis? Where's the analysis of the writing style, grammar, and composition by experts of Near Eastern and Middle Eastern Linguistics? The only so-called "expert" to have supposedly studied the bowl was a Clyde A. Winters, PHd (although he never tells us what his PHd is in!), who claims to have translated the bowl using the phonetic sounds of a Central African dialect, and then applied those phonetic sounds to Sumerian writing to come up with a translation. Of course, Clyde never bothers to mention that the words representing the phonetic sounds of the Via language of Central Africa, do not have the same meanings as the words against which they are being compared (and are supposedly phonetically similar to) in the Sumerian language! It is a completely erroneous comparison, but that really shouldn't suprise anyone due to the fact that Clyde is a proponant of "Afrocentricity". Clyde wants us all to believe that Africans visited South America thousands of years ago and founded all of the South American civilizations and societies. He would have us believe that black Africans founded every society on Earth. It is completely transparent. And this is your so-called "evidence?" I haven't seen you quote one serious scholar yet, Oscar. NOT ONE! And I think I know why; because not one serious scholar subscribes to the belief that there ever was any PURPOSEFUL trans-continental travel pre-Columbus. ACCIDENTAL trans-continental travel pre-Columbus possibly, but not PLANNED.

But I can see the route that you would wish us all to take. To quote your own words:


quote:
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How much time do we investigate the science called "archeology"? Do you think is having common sense to believe we're gonna find exactly the people we're looking for at the right time in the many leaves of geological strata?
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You would have us all abandon archaeology and take off on great "flights of fantasy" merely because archaeologists haven't uncovered what you want them to - and probably never will! Someday you will just have to face the fact that PURPOSEFUL trans-continental oceanic travel never did occur. If it had, there would have been a hell of a lot of physical evidence for it unearthed here in the Americas.

Your linguistic comparisons are so flawed it hurts me to even read them. First of all, Titania is derived from the Greek word Titan, not Quechuan or Aymaran. Please, for God's sake, give us all a break from this nonsense, would ya? I could do it too, y'know. For example: the name CARA is from an italian word meaning "dear one", so the word CAR must have been derived from the Italian language, hence it comes from the Latin, and before that the Proto-Latin. Therefore, to use your reasoning, since the English rendering of carabao comes from the Philippino Bisayan tribe's word karabaw meaning "water buffalo", then the English and Philippino people must have derived their languages from the Romans, or better yet, from the ancient pre-Roman inhabitants of Tyrrhenia (Italy) who traveled the seas disseminating their knowledge all over the world! That type of reasoning is what academics refer to as "false logic", and this forum is just crawling with it. It begins with some sort of reasonable question, such as "Did trans-oceanic travel exist pre-Columbus?" It then begins to look for "evidence" to support its hypothesis. After locating what they believe is "evidence" supporting their hypothesis, they begin to speculate (e.g. "Perhaps the inhabitants of the Alto Plano, in Bolivia, made the journey, due to the fact that reed boats used by the inhabitants of Lake Titicaca, or Lake Poopo, or wherever, are similar looking to the reed boats used by the ancient Egyptians."). After that, they start to ask the wrong questions, based upon the assumption that it did actually occur (e.g. "What route did they take?"). Throw in an experiment or two that APPEARS to support the hypothesis (e.g. Thor Heyerdahl's "experiment" of the reed boat "Ra" sailing from the Canary Islands to Cuba using his foreknowledge of the oceanic currents that would take him there - knowledge the ancients would not have been in possession of), but fails to take in all of the rest of the pertinent information (e.g. What about the return journey, which would have taken them through the North Sea - a place that is dangerous for modern sailing vessels even today with all of our technology). Throw in a couple of tidbits of false information (e.g. "La Fuente Magna" & a fraudulent Phoenician inscription) and presto bango, you have yourself a full-blown false-logic theory that you can "flesh-out", publish, and make lots of money, because there are plenty of gullible people out there just waiting to believe in it.

Oscar, you can capitalize as many letters, in as many words, as you want and claim that they are root words derived from Qechuan or Aymaran, but until you can conclusively argue their connectivity through linguistic analysis - not only phonetically, but etymologically, as well - then all you are doing is playing with the Caps Lock button on your keyboard.

What possible purpose would they have had for sailing all the way across either one of the world's two largest oceans to make war upon the inhabitants of the Mediterranean? If trade existed between the two continents, as you suggest, what would the economic benefits have been that would have outweighed the likelyhood that most of the ships wouldn't return? The economic benefits and motivation were there for the Spaniards because of the gold and the chance for expanding the Spanish Empire. What would the motivation have been for the inhabitants of the Alto Plano in Bolivia? What did the Old World have to offer that they didn't already have in the New World? Why would they bother with an enormously perilous journey across the Atlantic or Pacific, when equally lucrative prospects existed just to their north, in what is now America? Try to ask the pertinent questions, rather than allow yourself to be swept away by your emotions. Atlantis in America calls out to you from inside yourself, you want all of those smug scholars to be wrong, you want to prove them wrong, but unfortunately Oscar, it is you who is wrong.


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It's exactly your Western arrogance and not your knowledge what I do critic.
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What the hell does that mean, Oscar? You're just as far "west" (and "Westernized", I suspect) as I am!


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Ready to give up so fast accusing of nonsense?
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Apparently not.

Erick


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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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Brig
Member   posted 06-01-2003 17:45           
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Western arrogance, Eastern arrogance, Southern Arrogance, Northern Arrogance. I think you will find that there are a few in any direction. Arrogance is self decieving, counter-productive and generally stupid. Lets not practice it.
IP: 205.188.208.169
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-02-2003 04:37           
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In fact I explained to you the work of linguists talking about etymologic base. If you jst pretend to call "serious" only the people who suscribe to same paradigmas is cos they are defenders of the same thing over the years. It's not uncommon to see that in medical staff, astronomers,etc.Heyerdahl and Kitin Muñoz not only have explained or did theory like your book, their names are written history cos in fact they proved people like you were completly absurd in their skepticism about using ships with reed cos at that time every scientist believed they should'v use only Phoenician ships or wood.That's why they are famous and your name is unknown although probably you would want us to believe you are scientist. For decades we've been listening the Bering past and geologists,archeologists,historians based almost enterely their FAITH that was the only way to come to America.It just now in recent years thanks to genetic knowledge we are beginning to understand that DOGMA is impertinent, that a sequence of mutations -haplogroup M- was common in Hindues, Tibetans,MOngols and even in Ethiopians, so the paleo-antropologists are saying NOW there were in fact SEVERAL migratory waves from Africa to Europe and Asia ands others traveling to Australia.
Your argument saying Fuente Magna is a hoax is explained cos the very reason most of the scholars at the university don't want to even consider the possibility. I'm just using irony regardng your sleep cos you said it first. I just followed you.I'm saying the importance of investigating the ROOTS, the source, the etimology of the Quechua and Inca as linguists studied. Yet you ALREADY DISMISSED THE THING IN YOUR BRAIN (yes, I'm writing with capital letters).Why is that so? Cos in your "scientific" mind you have already the premise it's not worth it to investigate.If you were or other scientists were really interested they should've do the proper analysis. They don't care.The authorities of Jalapa museum just HIDE the toy with the figure of an elephant.Casn you tell me WHY? www.sitchin.com/elephant.htm
The reason for this is always the same:it's better to disregard, not fully investigate what is already contradicting the theory.As in many cases, for example C-14, it doesn't matter how much science demonstrates the method is not accurate, the stubburn scientific community continue to use the same method ignoring completely even the one who discovered the system already warned us about its credibility. Why? Because they have to fundament the same lies over and over.I could give details in different science aspects but I don't think it's worth it with you. Thanks God you can say something about Troy because an amateur was IN SITU as well as many amateurs before Carter using dinamite, yet it's good in the benefit of "science".You can't discuss about quechua or aymara so why are you entering in a field not known in your speciality? Hmmm? I said Titania was known in their respective places regarding to Moon. But you failed to see (AGAIN)the root TIT is quechua.That happens cos you're pissed off. There's a difference between you and me. I didn't disregard the importance of studying the things you have been mentioning here, you are doing it with the things you just completely ignore.That is arrogancy.Keep on going! I bet if I mention the droppings of coca in Henut or Ramses mummies, you would say the work of 3 different laboratories and toxicologist Svetla Balabonava or Dr. Lescot are not "serious" work either, right? Yet, the same attitude demonstrated by you was seen in that ocassion because they received a lot of letters saying it was a hoax, insulting them, accusing them Why the biggest authority in Egypt hasn't make any official comment about this thing? I tell you why. Because that thing doesn't deserve to be investigated, it's already eliminated in his mind and Dr. Lehner. That's the why science works. Nobody has to tell me. I have seen in it with doctors making experiences with cancer treatment.You can see this in the discussions and the reaction of geologists in many fields.So, your posting is yet another confirmation how the things work.
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inca

IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-02-2003 04:50           
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The theme in this forum is "orichalcum". Perhaps you should dedicate some 15 or 30 years of your life to study quechua,aymara and hebrew and then rethink about writing a book, Sr.cos the study of greek is already known better. To you it's nonsense or coincidence or ? why the incas knew the word qoricallque being an alloy long before they have contact with Spanish. Not to me. A scientific mind doesn't believe in randomic coincidences over and over just to back up their buildings falling in pieces or sinking in the sand. And when you finish that learning go with some collegues and examine REALLY with all the details the Fuente Magna and everything in Bolivia. I bet you ignore how many gringos are working there, right? I bet you already know Bolivia's effort and petitions,are you? I bet you knew from books written 200 years ago about Señor de Sipan wearing turbant in Moche land, the north of Peru, right? I bet you know why this "amateur" archeologist Gene Savoy is wellcome to Peru after he was expelled, right? Didn't I mention "serius" names? Mr.Erik, again I must say you think your own name gotta be included in my list? Not at all! You're Mr. nobody adding anything to science. Neither do I, I never did that claim.But Mr.Cotterell mentioned by me specifically was awarded in Mexico because of his contributions to the country regarding Maya culture.I mentiones Posnansky whose name is recognized and yet critizied, but nobody on planet Earth has ever heard of you. If you wanna write something about Atlantis, please accept an advise in the name of science you care to worship:investigate deeper in the ares you admitidly have NO knowledge whatsoever.At the meantime.....
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-02-2003 05:14           
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You mentioning Tyrreantanos? Erik, I mentioned a linguist who's adescent from Etrurians cos she's a Toscan and knows Italian much better than you! Natalia Tariffi is one of the ones who studied the thing and she's an expert on that field. In her book she not only examines the linguistic roots or other aspects but archeological evidence of a link between Quechuas and Etrurians.Being waht she is she could've said subjectevly Peruvians came from Etruria though she said the opposite. I think I better believe her as an expert and not you! The site is mentioning some names of linguists and scholars known in Bolivia that I saw on documentaries as well, Carlos Aliaga, Mario Montano,etc. I think you consider them "unworthy" and not "serious" as the credit of yourself, right? Or perhaps Hyatt and Ruth Verrill auhtors of America's Ancient Civilization compared with the things explained by Professor A.Thom in Megalitic Sites in Britain or Alden Mason, The Ancient Civilization of Peru or archeologist David Rohl and the other ones I mentioned before.Shall I mention a Brazilian filologist? Do they make you laugh as well? Well Erik, let me laugh at you.May I say, must be very difficult to find people expert in proto-sumerian ready and willing to go to Bolivia unless they have a ticket payed? Did you know Chinese people who don't have this Western stupid arrogance are willing to go to America to examine the evidence of a contact before Columbus? May I say even in MODERN history you Americans have this arrogance writing in your books swallowed by almost the entire globe the "father" of aviation were Wright brothers? Have you ever heard or read about their refusal to credit the Brazilian Santos Drummond and why?
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-02-2003 05:42           
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And just to finish, I must say your judgment about my "interest" to find Atlantis in SouthAmerica is just another Philistean effort to beat around the bush of turning the blind eye on with the things not studied by you. I repeat, this theme Atlantis is not specially of my liking, I just happened to know some things hence I discuss them. I was born in Peru but nothing in my blood seems to be Peruvian. Mom is from Chile and the lineage goes back to Spanish Fernando de la Cerda and following the track the blood comes from the time godos and visogodos were fighting with Romans and Arabs and Chileanean Mapuches or Araucanos. From my Argentinian dad I know I come from Italian Mastrangello and Tenaglia and English (or Irish)since my last name is Roberts.
Studying in Peru I had no particular interest in Indians of South America.In fact I have discovered they hid and hide information regarding blonde or red-head and bearded or dolicocefal or A type blood of the Incas' mummies before the Spanish arrival and legends as part of oral history acknowledges that. I discovered many races including negroes got to SouthAmerica. I didn't plan with anticipation I would've learned many things in Egypt linked to my own country Peru neither I imagined the events of my life would send me to live in Brazil where I've been learning more in many areas.So, I could happily conclude the vikings, sumerians and nigerians already came to Peru. That is my thought. But recently I'm pushed by the evidence you ignore or overlook, to believe the story didn't start with such a coming from them to our Americas but even we gotta rewind the history-tape in something improbable even to admit easily. Therefore, I understand your point of view yet I don't justify. Nor do I want you to be convinced. This is imposible, nobody convinces no one. The knowledge is accumulative in the sediments of your brain or conscience. Nothing you have said so far constitued something "new" at least to me.Your work unfortunately is just a mere copy, absolutely no deeper investigation.You already have a conclusion. That is not science because science doesn't end. It is I who says to you even I have a diametral opposed thought to you, the puzzle is not solved at all.My message is clear: your future book does not answer what happened.I'm not proposing I have the answers.Nobody has.
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Akata
Member   posted 06-03-2003 14:32           
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as we now atlantis is the capital city
of great atlantien empire
orichalcum is metal made my
atlantien smids,hmmm if i rember
whel we used lava do extract
the ore from the natural stone
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2007, 09:34:02 pm »

Erick Wright
Member   posted 06-03-2003 21:33           
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Oscar,
O.K. Fine. Let's go through your "arguments" one at a time - not that it will do any good, because you just don't want to listen to any reasonable argument.


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In fact I explained to you the work of linguists talking about etymologic base.
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Yes, you're right - you explained it, but unfortunately not very well. A better case could probably be made for your argument if you let them argue it in their own words. In other words, how about quoting them every once in a while?


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If you jst pretend to call "serious" only the people who suscribe to same paradigmas is cos they are defenders of the same thing over the years.
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Apparently, you don't understand how the scientific process works. A scientific theory can remain viable only for as long as it is unable to be conclusively refuted. If another scientist is able to show that the theory is flawed, or even a portion of it is flawed, then it is no longer considered to be a viable theory. If just a portion of the theory is flawed, and the theorist is able to correct that portion of the theory, then they can resubmit it for argumentation with the rest of the scientific community. Otherwise, it is dismissed as an unviable theory. The "Pre-Columbus or Pre-Viking Trans-Continental Oceanic Travel" theory has many flaws that have been pointed out again and again by scientists. The proponents of that theory have never been able to correct those flaws for resubmittal to the scientific community, therefore, the scientific community continues to dismiss their theory. A "claim" is not the same as "evidence". Anyone can make a claim about something, but coming up with scientifically viable evidence is substantially more difficult.


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Heyerdahl and Kitin Muñoz not only have explained or did theory like your book, their names are written history cos in fact they proved people like you were completly absurd in their skepticism about using ships with reed cos at that time every scientist believed they should'v use only Phoenician ships or wood.
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As I explained to you elsewhere in this forum, Heyerdahl's "experiment" only proved that it was possible to sail a large reed ship from the Canary Islands to Cuba, using already known oceanic currents - currents those ancients would not have known about before beginning their journey. He did NOT prove that it would have been possible to make the return journey. The return journey from South America, using those same oceanic currents, would have taken them up the North American coastline, then East across the North Atlantic Sea over to the UK, then south along the coast of Spain and Portugal. This would have been an extremely dangerous journey, so dangerous, in fact, that Heyerdahl opted not to even attempt it. If he, himself, had such great doubts about his ability to recreate the return journey in modern times (with all of the modern safety gear and procedures at his disposal), then why shouldn't WE doubt the viability of his theory?


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That's why they are famous and your name is unknown although probably you would want us to believe you are scientist.
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I have never represented myself as a scientist. I did spend just over three years in college studying Engineering Physics, in which a great deal of scientific information was studied, however, I have never even represented myself as an Engineer. Incidentally, they aren't really all that famous.


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For decades we've been listening the Bering past and geologists,archeologists,historians based almost enterely their FAITH that was the only way to come to America.It just now in recent years thanks to genetic knowledge we are beginning to understand that DOGMA is impertinent, that a sequence of mutations -haplogroup M- was common in Hindues, Tibetans,MOngols and even in Ethiopians, so the paleo-antropologists are saying NOW there were in fact SEVERAL migratory waves from Africa to Europe and Asia ands others traveling to Australia.
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O.K. First of all, you've got three different topics occuring in these two sentences, which you've attempted to blend into one argument, and none of the three directly correlates with either of the other two. A sequence of mutations (haplogroup M) common to Hindus, Tibetans, Mongols, and Ethiopians, giving rise to the possibility of several waves of migration from Africa to Europe, Asia and Australia is not an argument for "dogma" being impertinent, nor is it an against the Bering Strait migratory route theory. That theory, in fact, still stands as strong as ever for the ancestors of the American Indians and those peoples in the Americas having Mongoloid features. The only thing that has changed is that scientists have come to accept the POSSIBILITY of a second, seperate migration route by a limited group of peoples having caucasoid features. This POSSIBILITY has come to be accepted due to the addition of new evidence in the archaeological and anthropological record. Scientists have not based the Bering Strait migratory route theory almost entirely on faith, as you claim. but rather on the archaeological record, which evidences a southward flow of peoples into the North American continent around 11,000 BC where, before that time, the archaeological evidence of human occupation is non-existant. They have also based it partly on an intensive study of cultures on both sides of the Pacific. This scientific theory and it's evidences have yet to be proven to be "not viable".


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Your argument saying Fuente Magna is a hoax is explained cos the very reason most of the scholars at the university don't want to even consider the possibility.
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You're right, they don't, because not only does it not make any sense, but also there's no supporting evidence for such an occurance. The "possibility" that something could have occured is not evidence of that thing having actually occured.


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I'm saying the importance of investigating the ROOTS, the source, the etimology of the Quechua and Inca as linguists studied. Yet you ALREADY DISMISSED THE THING IN YOUR BRAIN (yes, I'm writing with capital letters).Why is that so? Cos in your "scientific" mind you have already the premise it's not worth it to investigate.If you were or other scientists were really interested they should've do the proper analysis. They don't care.
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I have not, nor have any scientists (that I know of), ever said that the Quechua and Inca languages are not worthy of study. Of course, they are. But those languages have already been analyzed by linguists and have been found to not be of the same family of languages of those of the Near East or Europe. They are most closely related to the Asian branch of languages, which, again, merely suggests the likelihood that the scientists were correct with their Bering Strait migratory route theory. Therefore, if you wish to draw some association between word roots in Quechua or Incan to word roots in the "Old World", then you would be more successful pursuing a comparison of those two ancient South American languages to the ancient languages of the Asian continent.


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The authorities of Jalapa museum just HIDE the toy with the figure of an elephant.Casn you tell me WHY?
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I would suspect that the authorities were being truthful when they claimed that it was on loan for an exhibit elsewhere. What possible motive would they have for lying about it? I think that Sitchin might have a higher opinion of himself than he really should. Are we really to believe, as Sitchin suggests, that the entire scientific community lives in fear of Sitchin uncovering some supposed deceit?

As for the so-called "elephant", I can tell you that my own first impression, when I viewed the clay figurine, was that it looked more like some sort of forest rodent - rather like a "titmouse". The nose is decidedly too short for it to even be considered as resembling an elephant. It just goes to show that people will see what they want to see.


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The reason for this is always the same:it's better to disregard, not fully investigate what is already contradicting the theory.As in many cases, for example C-14, it doesn't matter how much science demonstrates the method is not accurate, the stubburn scientific community continue to use the same method ignoring completely even the one who discovered the system already warned us about its credibility. Why? Because they have to fundament the same lies over and over.I could give details in different science aspects but I don't think it's worth it with you.
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This topic has already been covered by Andre and myself in another thread. Scientists do not stubbornly continue to use C-14 as a dating method exclusively and ignore other dating methods. In fact, C-14 has very widely been replaced by the more accurate C-12 dating method, and other more accurate and reliable methods are currently being looked into. Andre listed some of those methods in that other thread. Scientists have opted to do this BECAUSE they recognized the unreliability of the C-14 dating method in certain situations.


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Thanks God you can say something about Troy because an amateur was IN SITU as well as many amateurs before Carter using dinamite, yet it's good in the benefit of "science".
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I must admit, I haven't the foggiest idea of what you mean by this.


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You can't discuss about quechua or aymara so why are you entering in a field not known in your speciality? Hmmm?
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I never desired to discuss the Quechuan or Aymaran cultures, but it was you who brought them into the discussion as your so-called evidence of trans-oceanic contact. I have merely pointed out the flaws in that argument.


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I said Titania was known in their respective places regarding to Moon. But you failed to see (AGAIN)the root TIT is quechua.
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Actually, that is NOT what you wrote. What you wrote was:


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TITans of Greek mythology are related to metals, the work of ciclopean giants and TITrambo and TITania meant also the MOON both in Egypt and Greece. I don't think is a happy coincidence our moon is full of LEAD cos I reckon the ancients received some information from above or inspiration if you call it.
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As you can clearly see, there is no mention of the root TIT having had its origin in the Quechuan language. You do state that the root word TITI (from Titicaca River) meant "tin and lead or copper"; mind you, these are three completely different metals with completely different properties, but apparently that didn't make any difference to the Aymarans or Quechuans, whichever language it was a root word in (because you never stated which language it comes from), becuase they just "lumped" them all together under the same word (?).

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That happens cos you're pissed off.
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No, actually, that happened because you argued your case poorly.


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There's a difference between you and me. I didn't disregard the importance of studying the things you have been mentioning here, you are doing it with the things you just completely ignore.
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Actually, I disregard the speculations of any connection between the New World and Atlantis. I am researching Atlantis. I am not researching the Aymarans or Quechuans. And, since a sufficient argument has not been put forth for an Atlantis/South American connection, I don't care to study those cultures. Additionally, my own research has led me in an entirely different direction, so why would I abandon my own research in favor of yours? I also disregard the same, old, tired, so-called evidence that people keep regurgitating again and again. Their arguments haven't changed, and their evidence hasn't changed, and they continue to fail to argue their points effectively.


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I bet if I mention the droppings of coca in Henut or Ramses mummies, you would say the work of 3 different laboratories and toxicologist Svetla Balabonava or Dr. Lescot are not "serious" work either, right?
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This topic was brought up in another thread and my view on this can be read there.


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Why the biggest authority in Egypt hasn't make any official comment about this thing? I tell you why. Because that thing doesn't deserve to be investigated, it's already eliminated in his mind and Dr. Lehner.
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The Egyptian authorities do not argue that the results of Dr. Balabonava's tests are inaccurate, but rather that the conclusions drawn by people like yourself are erroneous and premature - namely, that the presence of trace amounts of **** and nicotine in Egyptian mummies must mean that the ancient Egyptians must have had contact or trade relations with South America. The presence of trace amounts of **** and nicotine in Egyptian mummies is conclusive, but the cause(s) for its presence is INCONCLUSIVE. Contact with the New World as the source of those trace amounts of nicotine and **** is the least likely of causes to have occured. That is why it will only be considered after every other option has been explored and eliminated.

I believe that about covers every argument put forth in your first post. You'll have to be patient and give me a couple of days to get the responses for the last two posts. I injured my back helping a laborer move a 148 foot long (12 feet wide) roll of carpet, and it really hurts when I sit for too long. I'm going to go to a chiropractor this weekend and get some x-rays taken to make sure I didn't seriously injure anything and get an adjustment, but I think its probably just a muscle strain. I have a cookout tomorrow night here at the apartment in Cleveland and the whole construction/remodel team will be here for it, so tomorrow night is a lost cause for me in regards to getting a chance to post anything. Sorry, but you'll just have to bear with me and be patient. I assure you, however, that I will get around to responding to every single argument/point in your last two postings.

Respectfully,

Erick


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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


IP: 205.185.145.111
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-04-2003 05:03           
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You're repeating to the extension the same thing I'm saying and nothing changes. When you specify YOU DON'T CARE to study the cultures, my conclusion is you have a poor knowledge regarding those cultures because of that and thanks for stablishing this clearly for everybody.Pityful author and worst study. How on Earth am I suppose to write a book about Atlantis if I haven't examined all the cultures which are possible places for Atlantis? Anybody can and that's an admision of prejiudice.I did a reference of books and authors sufficiently enough not to repeat. I quoted linguists.The mention of Scientific Community means exactly this, specialities which completely lost the perspective and we have to admit the possibility of other bridges BESIDES Bering to be accepted in the following a hundred years. That possibility is accepted now and was the faith to be accepted as the only bridge, NOW we know there was not an only bridge and I don't care if takes 100 years to be accepted by the community.In rare ocassions we see an archealogist studyin let's say China having vast experience about Australia or Egypt, eventually in the future a possible contact is gonna be EXAMINED deeper.Heyerdahl didn't have to prove the travel going home again with the same ships, the fact is the association with coca and nicotine and yet other important factors are still considered happy coincidences and we can tak forever avbout the details of that.C-12 is being used NOW thanks of the critics been made about unnacurate method C-14 which unfortunately is still used.It's been discussed here not only those methods but other are unnacurate as well and scientists keep on using them cos they have faith in the system aproved by the Scientific Community. I stablished first than the quoting of what I wrote the root TIT and the meaning, I said clearly enough in Greece and Egypt was known. It doesn't matter we are talking about different metals, the fact is Quechua and Aymara know them with the same root.
Even if the toy in Jalapa museum is not an elephant, the autorithies CARE enough to eliminate the thing and as done by Scientific Community regarding some fossils, we have to wait years to discover something is hidden in the museums. Only the authorities know what is hidden in Smithsonian Institute to say an example.We didn't know too much about Dendera things if it wasn't for the insistence of another authority.Thanks of a curator in amuseum I knew Tutankamon had a knife made of steel in his chest but there's not too much information about this or the finding of silk in Egypt.Maybe coca and nicotine in Egyptian mummies don't mean nothing to you and we have to wait 100 years the Scientific Community accepts the fact and be anounce as new thing for future generations or the presence of white Austrian or Afganistan people in China, I don't have to wait if I see other things running in the same direction all over the world, more and more to accept we have been lied regarding history.Jalapa museum shouldn't "eliminate" the evidence. And they would have to show in the same place photographs of temples with other images of elephant proboscides in Mexico (Chaac Mool deity)as well and let people who go there make their conclusions as well to see if it's just another coincidence.Don't you ever talk to me about Scientific Commnity, the GUARDIANS OF THE FAITH like Hawass' site friends.Hawass has the prepotence to even admit he and Lehner are the only people who can discuss about Egypt and allowed to study sometimes under their supervision.That's an example how the things work.Don't talk to me about methods as if I were born yesterday and being as naïve as you are in your confidence of the sacred cow. Even from the very university you shall not doubt and some thesis are gonna be disregard immediately if you don't accept or even question too much what it's taught.It hgappens all the time in all the areas. Scientific Community ha-ha-ha! I tell you something Erik,see for yourself the REACTION of your collegues at the university AFTER you publish your and then you will understand what we are talking about.Even if your thesis is not something audatious you will witness your private excomulgation & Inquisition.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-04-2003 05:21           
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For my part, I'm not gonna discuss the thing forever trying to convince you. I said it for the first time Atlantis doesn't interest me that much. The thing you're telling about the getting back to Africa using the same paths of the sea I admit is a good point as many others you have said. I don't question your knowledge about the things you know but your arrogance regarding things you should study deeper if you wanna write a book about Atlantis. Regarding Thor Heyerdahl it's up to you if you admit or not, the assumption of the POSSIBILITY of such travelings is due thanks to him, he had the guts (followed by others now)to try. Before him, that was not admitted.There are many possibilities which haven't been EXAMINED, for example did those travellers could've go to other places first rather than getting back for the same route? Didn't Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese use other alternative routes? Why do I have to believe the HAD to use the route you're thinking of? Was it imperative the use of the same paths over and over? Or even many visits to the continent rather than a unique initial coming and eventually other comings generations after and perhaps by a coincidence as well?
We're not talkng just about coca and nicotine, we're talking about exact dimensions and angles and meaning of pyramids, similar system of architecture leaving no space between stones, we're talking about heliolatry, mummification, priest-kings, craftmen using copper and golden it and so on.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-04-2003 06:03           
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Regarding Mr.Hawass or Lehner you write the same thing and yet said nothing.I'll be more CLEAR, may I?:
Is Dr. Hawass or Lehner or any other egyptologist examining THE CAUSES of the presence of nicotine and coca (not **** as you wrote)in the Egyptian mummies?
Answer NO! He is as interested in the item as you are! No interest whatosever and using the same kind of pathetic arguments you use.Carter found knife made of STEEL (how long ago was it discovered Tutankamon?)yet nothing we hear about the investigation of it or silk. Don't bother to answer cos Hawass' friends (egyptologist as you are not)didn't answer to me. In fact the mere asking of my questions provoked to ERASE me from the forum or yet other questions unanswered.That's the "procedure" used by Scientific Community. Shame on them!
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oscar
Member   posted 06-04-2003 06:24           
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We were talking about Fuente Magna and you said there are no enough analysis. I replied and said who went to examine the thing? Who was an expert on proto-sumerian and interested in going there or even got the plane ticket? It is the same case as coca (again not ****, you must inform yourself the difference if you are gonna talk about the use of coca in Egypt or Peru, right?)in Egyptian mumies. Hawass maybe would have the same "scientific", "argument" and "explanation" (yes, between inverted commas as you write it to make irony out of me), he would say with prejuidice (which means pre or making a judgment with anticipation):"because not only does it not make sense -to you or the people who already disregard the idea- but there's no supporting evidence for such an occurance. This is the case with every single piece of information eliminated or not considered and called coincidence.How scientific? I laugh at you again.The problems of a theory shouldn't eliminate the thing. Every single argument you have used to talk about "flaws" can be applied to theory evolution and hoaxes made on purpose in Academies like Bruselas, etc,or every single method to measure activity on time (not precisely time)or even examining the position of stars and the use of paralex simple trigonometry wrongly applied to distant stars, unendless weak points.Yet, we accept that information as the digestive "truth".No more Erik, I think you gotta get back to Middle Ages times, Scientific Community writing their respectful truth in an specific magazine (sometimes very superficial)like Nature or National Geographic or Archeology magazine is no exclusive science no more.
Respectfully Oscar. Treat your back...and something else.I shall not continue this conversation, your arguments and response are spinning around and seem to be repeated.I'm not adding too much of the theme in fact, I just responded your answer but I ran out of patience.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
Wrapscallion
New Member   posted 06-04-2003 17:18           
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About the elephant thing.......there were Mammoths still alive in some parts of america about 2500 b.c.....but i do not think that could be what the artist there saw.Now, one explorer to Missouri in the early 1800's was told by local native american's that he could find a "hairy" elephant a few miles away.....( read louis 'lamour's Jubal Sackett and go to the bibliography at the end of the book).
Orichalcum is present in large quantities in the Bolivian high plain. And that is one of the things Homer saidabout atlantis----that they had huge amounts of orichalcum.
But---i would also love to see someone do a minerological survey of the Anatolian peninsula(is that what it's called?) for some of the stuff he says about atlantis....seems to also resemble things about Troy.....
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NileQueen
Member   posted 06-05-2003 01:12           
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Yes about that elephant figurine..Erick, you described it as a "titmouse", but that is a bird.
And Wrapscallion, from what I understand, mammoths died out everywhere, including North America, around 10,000 BP. The only exception to this I think, is Wrangel Island, north of Siberia, where they continued until ~4000 BP http://www.radiocarbon.org/Journal/v37n1/vartanyan.html

The 1800s thing was a hoax.

[This message has been edited by NileQueen (edited 06-05-2003).]

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oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 04:01           
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What about mastodonts and the "place of elephants' in Winsconsin?
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oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 04:04           
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It's a pity the images in magazines or books that I own are not available in internet where you can clearly see proboscide and shape of elephants in Mexico and in Bolivia, not hairy mamooths.It doesn't matter, it shall be in the future and not because of me.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 08:02           
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This is for our dear Erik who would probably say this is not an elephant but a mouse, a tapir or a bird! www.science-frontiers.com/sf068b07.htm
And probably he will think it would be absurd even to check those books and sites, right? www.rae.org/ch06tud.html www.sacredsites.com/pilgram/3/sept29.html

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oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 08:10           
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Oops! I wrote wrong. It is: www.science-frontiers.com/sf068/sf068b07.htm

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RedKnight
New Member   posted 06-05-2003 08:11           
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As per www.dictionary.com - -
Orichalch, n. [L. orichalcum, Gr. ?; 'o`ros, mountain + chalko's brass: cf. F. orichalque.] A metallic substance, resembling gold in color, but inferior in value; a mixed metal of the ancients, resembling brass; -- called also aurichalcum, orichalcum, etc
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oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 09:12           
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More elephants for dear Erik: www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/jpg/fig128.jpg www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/jpg/fig131.jpg www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/jpg/fig133.jpg
(forget the stupid comment about rattlesnake tongue! in the site) www.anthroarcheart.org/tblg77.htm www.anthroarcheart.org/tblw81.htm www.hiddenmysteries.com/item300/item370.html www.samexplo.org/heroes.htm

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NileQueen
Member   posted 06-05-2003 09:29           
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oscar

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What about mastodonts and the "place of elephants' in Wisconsin?
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I see
"Numerous radiocarbon ages dated the mammoths to the late Pleistocene and provide a time period of ca. 13,530 to 12,300 yr BP." http://www.yukonmuseums.ca/mammoth/abstrh-k.htm
Nothing unusual about that.

oscar


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It's a pity the images in magazines or books that I own are not available in internet where you can clearly see proboscide and shape of elephants in Mexico and in Bolivia, not hairy mammoths.It doesn't matter, it shall be in the future and not because of me.
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Okay are you saying the magazines will be on the internet in the future or that elephants will make a comeback in Mexico and Bolivia, or that proof of those creatures will come to light?

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This is for our dear Erik who would probably say this is not an elephant but a mouse, a tapir or a bird!
And probably he will think it would be absurd even to check those books and sites, right? www.rae.org/ch06tud.html www.sacredsites.com/pilgram/3/sept29.html
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Hard to check the sources on Erich von Fange's claims. Sacredsites link doesn't work. I see an interesting picture of a Mayan elephant...
Perhaps we should start another thread on elephants/mastodons in South & Central America. Supposedly there were no mammoths in South America.




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Brig
Member   posted 06-05-2003 17:28           
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Come on Oscar, not all americans arrogantly hold to the status quo. Some of us and a growing number of Archeologists and scientists realize old Chris Columbus was a johnny come very lately.Sizeable cracks are forming in the ole status quo.The cracks really started when nordic genes were found in north eastern american indians such as the Iroquis nation. There are numerous depictions of elephants in ancient american arts. A lot of us believe the new world isn't at all that new and Chinese, Japanese, Africans, probably Philistines, possibly Hebrews, more than likely Roman, and who knows who else have been here, traded here, even settled here.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 19:25           
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Sorry for generalization, Brig! I think the images I posted are enough. Some of them I have in a magazine with full color and I haven't seen them available by internet. Yet there are other pictures of elephants (not mastodonts)in Cuenca, in Ecuador and Colombia, in pots and golden object.I think Charles Berlitz show some of them in his book Mysteries of Forgotten Worlds.There are others images in Tiahuanaco, Bolivia but I haven't found them by internet and I'm not gonna look for them. It's clear to me. There are a lot of images like this in Ica, Peru but many people don't trust in specific those images so I don't mention them as a source. Yet there's a last book done by Erick Von Däniken examining the criticism about Dr. Cabrera and the famous "stones" which evidently shows how foolish are the critics made so easily. If anybody wants to check it's up to him(her).
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-05-2003 20:01           
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Erik Von...whatever...actually mentions the fact which appeared in other books for the ones who want to search. I did some homework and found those interesting images cos I know what to look already and where to look and I think is good enough. Whoever wants to know more (even in Wisconsin where there were mammoths & mastodonts & elephants)or if somebody wants to search the presence of elephants even in England, go ahead and make your day, you will find what is not interesting for some people in this forum. But I really wanted to say something to stop this issue (for my part) cos it changed into something else. I wanna tell you how does Scientific Comunity works. Picj up the special issue in National Geographic about Bolivia and look at the beautiful design done by the drawist. The proportion of the ruins are SMALLER than they really are and they didn't say a single word about the hooks an alloy of niquel + copper requiring a temperature of 1927 C only achieved in 1930 although the ancients already were using it somehow!
For years we have known the elephant depictions in Mexico, Ecuador, Colombia,Bolivia, Peru and yet we have a cynical silence cos it doesn't fit in the dogmas accepted by 99% otherwise they are gonna be expelled from the "society". You buy a book like Mars: unravelling the secrets of the red planet by Patfinder and National Geographic and stare magnificent colourful 3D photos but then you find a miserable, blurred and single black & white photo (out of 11 available, some in color)and even worst they CUT OFF the photograph to hide form the readers the presence of pyramids in that very region. Yet they amplify with full detail the "erosion" (not fully examined with the rest of the things we know about that image)to make evident their point of view!
If Dr. Duboius finds fragment pieces of Java hominid in areas of the island separated one from another by kilometers, it doesn't matter cos evolocionists are gonna believe they belonged to a unique ape-man walking like an idiot and then we'll have a worldwide broadcasting approach hammering our brains via satellite simultaneously at tv news in every single country. Am I a lier? But oh,oh! they won't make to much publicity about hoaxes like Zijanthropus, Vladimir, Heidelberg, Orce, Piltdown who remained for years in exhibition. Eventually some morons try to justify their faith like creacionists discussing Noah's ark photographs in Ararat mountain!. Certainly some information doesn't require to be backed up when doesn't need to be filtered. They are still guessing but the media shall know "scientists have found water on the moon" when really they suspect. Erick would think some of us were born yesterday and aren't aware how the things work. So much for preciousssss ssssscience, gimme a break! Other day I asked a paleontologist about his work in virtual reality with skeletons of dinosaurs. I asked him if he compared with other mammals and did hismath calculations including musle tissue and rather than answering me he was pissed off and refused a dialogue. Try to discuss about size and nature laws or catastrophism with a geologist and look his human response, see how his scientific mind behaves with subjectivity as any regular guy cos these ones who belong to the society club are not inmune to their faith in particular.
IP: 200.188.186.147
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-06-2003 10:41           
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You can see the mark of those hooks in the stones of Bolivia in the site: www.peruegipto.cjb.net www.geocities.com/peruegipto
Click in the subject PERU-EGIPTO to see the photographs or read Cotterell's book with more photographs, The Tomb of Viracocha.
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Spoiler
Member   posted 06-09-2003 05:39           
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Ochre or Hematite is a iron oxide. It precipitates in hot springs or standing water. Ancient uses of ochre include henna tatoos, paintng and enbalming. Hematite would be a good bet for modern 'Orichalcum'. In its powder form it is blood red. Form more technical information see:
http://webmineral.com/data/Hematite.shtml http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/oxides/hematite/hematite.htm
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oscar
Member   posted 06-15-2003 08:25           
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A typical member of the Scientific faith is egyptologist John Baines who said about the possibility of travellings between Africa and America "I don't know anyone who SPENDS TIME DOING RESEARCH IN THESE AREAS".Of course not.Yet that is not a very scientific attitude, right? Go to:
www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html
Oh indeed, we're waiting for Peter's stupid future comment about nicotine & coca in Egyptian mummies "most likely second hand" cos he thinks he's an specialist who can even make better research than German specialist, her collegues and others who came after them and 3 different labs like we have to guess Peter Nobody is an expert on something.He even not knowing Osiris was depicted green dares to write something about Egypt or wanna repeat a mummy was found in Great Pyramid...and people care to ask questions or waste their time arguing with him!!!! Ha-ha-ha!

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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2007, 09:36:04 pm »

Author  Topic:   "Orichalcum?" 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 06-15-2003 12:19           
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Everyone,
A couple weeks or so ago I mentioned that I didn't think that there was really anything new to discuss regarding orichalcum. Oscar's incessant ramblings about every topic other than orichalcum has only served to confirm that suspicion.

I feel that it is my privelage to close out this thread and to have the last word before doing so, due to the fact that I started this thread. Therefore, I am re-posting an earlier post to this thread, immediately after which the thread will be closed to future postings.

Here is the previous post.

Everyone,
Does anyone else here feel, as I do, that the topic of orichalcum has been pretty well exhausted?

Oscar has written:


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I said it before somewhere else and I repeat it again: it's an error to assume because the story was made by Plato we should start from Latin or Greek as a source of the linguistic root. An alloy was known by the incas with the same name qoricallco and some linguists think quechua has roots in many languages, even proto-greek and etrurian.Hence, forget Latin & Greek for a while and search into the past, whoever can!
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The story of Atlantis comes to us from Plato, a Greek, and it was written down by him in the Greek language, therefore, it is only appropriate to examine the etymology of the word "oreichalcos" in relation to its source - the ancient Greek language (Attic dialect). To examine the etymology of the word in any other language is to give credence to the speculation that a word with phonetic similarity might have its origin in 'Atlantean'. This would be a speculation with no basis in fact, as no physical evidence, or example, of an 'Atlantean' language has ever been discovered. This would also be a speculation based upon the assumption that the 'Atlantean' language was not an already known and well-documented language, whose association has not yet been connected to 'Atlantis'. This would be a very bad and misleading (I believe) assumption to make.

The etymology of the word "oreichalcos" has been examined in relation to the ancient Greek Attic dialect, by both Georgeos and myself, and the result of that was this:

Georgeos:


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In texts of Plato - written in Greek it is denominated to this metal like, "oreikhalkós" (oreichalcos), which is pronounced like "orichalcos". Literalemente, this voice means, "copper of mountain", "orei", "mountain", and "khalkós", "receives".
Plato are not speaking of any "gold" alloy and "silver" or of "gold" and "receives", nor of no other strange metal alloy. There is no "mystery". Plato to only speaks us of a simple "Mountain copper", that is to say, a type of "natural copper" that was obtained directly from the mines.

As it demonstrates it in another fragment of the dialogue of Kritias, where it clarifies that the "oreichalcos" or "mountain copper" were obtained directly from mosntañas.


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Myself (Erick):


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According to the 7th edition Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1997),

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Chalcos - copper, Lat.aes, Hom., etc.; called in reference to its color, erythros, Il.:--copper was the first metal wrought for use...hence chalcos came to be used for metal in general; and, when men learnt to work iron, chalcos was used for sideros, and chalceus came to mean a blacksmith. Chalceos also meant bronze (i.e. copper alloyed with tin), not brass (i.e. copper alloyed with zinc, which was a later invention), and this was its sense when applied to arms.
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It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.


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So, based upon the etymology of the Greek word "oreichalcos" we should conclude that Plato was referring to one of the two meanings found above - either "mountain copper", as Georgeos suggested, or "mountain metals", the more 'generic' meaning that I have suggested. The reason that I subscribe to the more 'generic' interpretation is because Plato wrote (to paraphrase) that, at that time (i.e. the time of Atlantis), it had only the one name, but during his (Plato's) time it had more names.

When copper, its derivatives, and its derivatives' constituent metals, are grouped under the more generic term "mountain metals", it allows for the later "break-out" into more names (copper, bronze, tin, zinc, etc.). This, and the Greek-English Lexicon's definition are the reasons that I have proposed the more generic meaning of "mountain metals" (under which category "natural copper" occasions to fall).

Respectfully,

Erick


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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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oscar
Member   posted 06-15-2003 18:52           
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Of course! What a nice discovery! As a matter of fact you'll get the same conclusions over and over because you and George studied the thing -as you say with own words- related to Greek because that is your interest. I repeat,other linguists disagree. Plato did a reference long before the Greeks and their language. The language root is somewhere else.You have to get your conclusion cos Greek is the heart of the matter of your interest and know absolutely nothing about aymara or quechua. Get back after you search and learn.I don't care if you think you have the right to "close" the topic repeating what already said. Anyone canm do exactly the same! When the Spanish conquerors got to Mesoamerica they -knowing Greek probably better than you- thought natives were talking Greek or proto-Greek and Quiche language has absolutely no relation with other languages of the region. That is not of your interest either, isn't it? Or do you want to tell me you're an expert on Quiche and Nahuatl (of the Aztecs) as well? If you believe you can trust what geologists say about how was Earth 10.000 years ago , well what can I say? It's up to everyone being naïve and candid! In this I have an advantage. I honestly admit I DON'T KNOW and I'm open, you, on the other hand, wanna publish a book about a pre-established "truth". Go ahead, make YOUR day.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-15-2003 18:58           
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By the way, I haven't seen more of Erick's comments about elephants, birds or mice in elephant & mamooth theme.I suppose it's because it is no interesting for him to know Mayas' description of elephants different form Ganesha depictions in India.
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Erick Wright
Member   posted 06-15-2003 22:47           
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Oscar,
Keep going. Your words only confirm your ignorance. Do you really believe, even for a second, that anyone with an ounce of common sense "buys into" your elephants in America nonsense? You need to take a reality break.

For the absolute last time, I could give a rat's behind about the Quiche, Nahuatl, or any other South or Central American language, because it has absolutely no relevance to the topic of orichalcum - a Greek word found in a Greek text. If the word orichalcum had been found in an Aztec text, and not in a Greek text, and if the Atlantis story had been written by an Aztec, then I might care about the Nahuatl or Quiche languages; but it didn't, it wasn't, and I don't!

You want to know why the paleontologist refused a dialogue with you? Its most likely due to YOUR EXTREME LACK OF TACT. It was either that or the absolute stupidity of the question you put to him. You actually had the nerve to ask a scientist working on a virtual reality model of dinosaur skeletons if he had "compared with other mammals and did his math calculations including muscle tissue"Huh Of course he did! Why wouldn't he have??? Do you you think that you are the only person capable of a thought?

"Preciousssss ssssscience"? Here's a thought, put your Tolkein down and pick up a scientific or academic research journal! Scientists never claimed to have found water on the moon, one scientists theorized about the possibility of ice in one of the craters at one of the moon's poles - nothing more. If a journalist took it and made it "news worthy" with a spectacular headline designed to catch a person's attention, then so be it. If a person, however, was in touch with what science was doing, or bothered to read the article, they would have immediately found out otherwise.

You haven't seen any comment regarding elephants in America in any other threads, because I know that there wasn't any.

Incidentally, I am NOT currently writing, nor having published, a book. I currently have no future plans on writing a book, nor on having one published. If you had bothered to read what I wrote you would know that already.

Lastly, your attempts to "belittle" me into backing down from what my research has indicated to me are as transparent as your arguments.

Give it up.

Erick


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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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Akata
Member   posted 06-16-2003 01:47           
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Eric this Rare Metal Can only
be found in on Azores Islands
Red in color when in Stone
using the prosess of steam
of lava to get pure ore
form of this belive me
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Akata
Member   posted 06-16-2003 09:47           
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very rare ore extra rare in whole universe
100 to 10000000.00000 on
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Akata
Member   posted 06-16-2003 09:47           
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i mean one not on
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atalante
Member   posted 06-16-2003 21:17           
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In trying to translate "mountain copper", or "natural copper", I suggest looking at some known facts about the earliest known copper usage.
"Above-ground" copper existed in North
America around 7000 BC, when local natives first learned to work coppper. It was located in the northern peninsula of Michigan. At the end of this post I will give a link which explains the float copper which was used from 7000 BC to 3000 BC.

More specifically, this type of copper has been labeled "float copper", because glaciers had ground away the upper soil levels, exposing the veins of copper, and then literally floated away some copper chunks.

Ancient people needed to see (and use) some "float" copper on the surface of the earth, before those ancients became interested in mining underground to get copper.

I find it logical for Plato to be saying that "above ground" copper (oreichalc) no longer existed in his era, but that it had existed long ago.

Here is a very interesting webpage which discusses the ancient (7000 BC) usage of float copper in Upper Michigan:
http://copperculture.homestead.com




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oscar
Member   posted 06-16-2003 21:42           
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The paleontologist did not do the proper math and did not take under consideration muscles, only care about bones, so your "of course" is a mere guessing of yours, I was the one who had the nerve to ask.You haven't read nor understand my previous postings. Plato did the writing in Greek yet what is in question is the origin of the Greek and an account far away from Greek story. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat insistingly like a mind made of rock the reference to Greek, we already understood your point of view.And we already know you don't care about other cultures focus on your interest. You have said already 3 times if I'm not wrong.I don't care if you think is ridiculous or not the presence of elephants in America yet they are there depicted and it was not a bird or a mice as you stupidly said and was even corrected by someone else. So again inform yourself better cos it seems not only don't know enough about mamooths,elephants or mastodonts but don't know even the difference between coca and **** and yet wanna discuss about what was found in Egyptian mummies!!!!If you wanna repeat again the things which are not your interest, please do it again and again and again. We're deligthed regarding your "scientific" attitude.Let the readers know your disposition so when the book is finally published we can lead the eventual readers to your postings here and scientific objectivity defending Scientific Community. On the other hand I haven't reject other possible places of Atlantis cos really I don't care if it was in Bolivia or India or Gibraltar or Azores. It's not me the one who's refusing to search other areas...even studying preciousssss Greek. Plato quoted a word as old as the word "alcohol". If you're stupidly blind enough not to consider the importance of what that word meant knowing Plato's reference was ancient imported from somewhere else and oral accounts...go on! Ha-ha-ha! Indeed, wasn't you the one who wanted to finish the topic? Must be pulling my legs with your scientific attitude. I don't wanna publish anything at all.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-16-2003 22:03           
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My elephants? Not at all. I don't own any zoo or special farm.I don't have to defend something already depicted for everyone to look at in Mexico and you can hate the idea the much the better.Since you don't have the rat interest -and I love when your scientific approach writes it down with all the letters- in investigate more, why insisting in refuse something don't dare to examine properly? Oh yes, you love so much the idea of a Greek word "orichalcum" that Plato's reference to elephants are no longer your interest cos you assume elephants were always living at the exact places you suppose they were living all the time! What a scientific mind! Even the fact in Quechua qoricallque is not just a word but an alloy means nothing to you and knowing it was not a word imported from Greek. Well you are another idiot infected by Western Latin and Greek influence as the main source. I wonder what would be your attitude if you were a cartographer assuming Brazil was "discovered" by Portuguese Cabral and yet see the name of the place and the area of the country already existed in maps 300 years BEFORE Cabral, wouldn't you like to know the source of that word or name or would you stubbornly repeat like a moron "no, the word comes from wood 'brasil'as called by Portuguese"? Never mind, we already know your point of view stupidly repeating to consider stupid without checking the things before talking. Coca/**** or mice/elephant is a good example of your enlightment.Give it up, nice try. Don't worry about my tact, worry about your superficiality.By the way, do not enter in the field of paleontology cos I prepared myself and did my references to other paleontologists and their research before asking with "nerve".Indeed I have the kind of nerve to point the finger to "scientific" minds like yours.Keep on doing the bad job.Something more to add to "orichalcus" Greek source or are you gonna repeat it again? And then what?
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Riven
Member   posted 06-18-2003 12:03           
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Interesting to note that in the book The Golden Calf,which the world adores and desires. London 1670. That Elias the Artist said that he was a melter of orichalcum. Another clue which suggests that orichalcum was a natural metal. Like Akata states which is an ancient art of alchemy. Maybe they mixed it with electrum to give it brilliance? http://www.levity.com/alchemy/helvet.html
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vinland
Member   posted 06-18-2003 16:21           
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I have found Atlantis, "ITS Vancouver Island Canada." The evidence is in the cave art they left behind. For the atlantian cave art see. http://forest.facts.tripod.com/goldmountain.htm

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xfx
Member   posted 06-21-2003 19:09           
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Wow.. amasing forum. Finally. Read it a month ago and didnt se anykind of real science discussion. Only Edgar Cayse, Super Nuclear Civilization and things like that.
What Eric Wright started is very nice.
And I think he´s right in many cases. And
i laugh to what Oscar said in his last posts.
You(Oscar) doesnt seem to get the point in Eric posts. He mean that just because every English translation use the unknown word Orichalcum it doesnt mean that its an unkown word in thew original greek translation. If the translators had translated every word Plato wrote in Greek Orichalcum had been replaced with mountain copper, copper ore or maybe mountain metall. Orichalcum is in the original text a greek word and mean mountain copper. oreichalkos = mountain copper
orei = mountain
chalkos = copper
understand? Plato said that it is now only known by name. What Plato meant was that he didnt know exactly what mountain copper was, more than some kind of mix ( natural or manmade alloy / ore ) including copper.

I therefore mean that Orichalcum means mountain copper and that Plato knewed it was some kind of MIX including copper, but he didnt know what. The Atlanteans probably called it mountain copper, but how should Plato know what the Atlanteans meaned with mountain copper? Thats my point.

And there have been Elephants in America a long time ago, but at the end of the last ice age. I think that if you find pictures or statues showing Elephants in America it´s beacause the people who made them had sometime been in either Asia or Africa and seen Elephants or their Ancestors. It doesnt mean that Atlantis was in America. And as I said before. The preist in Plato´s texts didnt say that the war and the destruction of Atlantos took place 11.600 BP. He said that the first Greek civilization was created back then, and that the Egyptian civilization was created 1000 years after.
The war couldnt have taken place 11.600 BP cuz the civilizations in the war didnt existed back then. The text doesnt say it. And IRL science doesnt say it.

Atlantis wasnt in America, and if it was then the it was much later and the elephants still comes from Indian or African Elephants.


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xfx
Member   posted 06-21-2003 19:28           
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Most of the translators translated the original oreichalkos ( from the Greek original-text ) as Orichalcum which is a latin word for the same thing. ( mountain copper / copper ore. It was some times mixed up with the latin:" auricalcum which would mean: gold-copper. That was a mistake. auri means gold and calcum copper and exist in latin only. Not in Greek which is the language Plato wrote it in. You can trace the word orei as far back as Linear B from the mykkeanean civilization and means: mountain.
Chalkeos = of copper or bronze, brasen
oreichalkos = mountain copper, copper ore
oreichalkou = mountain copper, copper ore

The Greek original word they translated as Brass was in Plato:" chalkôi "

chalkôi = of copper or bronze, brasen

Therefore, the Brass which they coated the outher walls with could be either: bronze, brass, copper or some other kind of copper alloy. ( natural or artificial )

The only thing we can say is that the chalkôi
and oreichalkos(Orichalcum) was two different things. Both could have been brass but still different things. Maybe Red Brass and ordinary brass. Red Brass has more percentage of copper than ordinary brass and is therefore more reddish/orange. It could also have been bronze and the other brass.
Or one of them either bronze or brass and the other, some other type of copper alloy.




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xfx
Member   posted 06-21-2003 19:44           
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I want to make one more point. Plato´s texts isnt the only texts which mention Orichalcum in English translations. Even earlier texts from persons like Homer and Hesiod. ( 1000 - 8000 before christ ) mentions Orichalcum or
oreichalkoio.
They have sometimes translated oreichalkoio
as bronze because its often used in weapons like swords and spears in the old texts. Even shields. Like Eric´s suggestion that they hang bronze-shields around the outermost wall.
Some translators of these texts translated both chalkoi and oreichalkoio as shining bronze. In other words: they translated 2 different words as the same thing. But if they used chalkoi and oreichalkoio in weapons maybe it was bronze?

Another solution to the problem could be that the ancient greeks didnt have different words for different copper alloys. Maybe just one word ( written in many ways ) for all types of copper alloys.

The weapons could ( if the above is right ) therefore still be bronze even if the same Greek words in the Atlantis texts maybe mean brass, copper or another copper-alloy.

One thing is certain, Orichalcum included copper.


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xfx
Member   posted 06-21-2003 19:55           
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Sorry... I meant... 1000-800 before christ for Homer and Hesiod. Not 8000.
And if it is strong similarities between languges in the civilizations of America and Europa it´s probably cuz of Ancient seatravellers. I dont think there is enough scientific proof for pre-columbian/viking Atlantic crossing, but I definitely think there is enough proof that it was possible with help from the ocean currents.

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oscar
Member   posted 06-22-2003 08:58           
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xfx: you can laugh at me, yet I fully understand what you say and what Erick said.It seems to me you fail to understand or investigate why on Earth a language which didn't have any influence of Greek or Latin, a language that is very old would be an alloy and pronounced qoricallque. Erick admited he doesn't even want to study the subject so my chat with him is over cos neither he nor I want to repeat the same arguments to exhaustive extremes. So my question is: have you personally investigated some beyond the limits of already known Greek and Latin? Or, like Erick, do you think is wasting of time?
What you think about elephants seen by people who traveled to India and Africa could be true...or not. I have the honesty and candity to admit I DON'T KNOW, so my question is why are you so sure if you know not even the experts in geology really know too much about Ice Age and of course, they would disregard any cartographic evidence of Antartica as seen without ice and splitted (something we just knew in recently)125.000 years ago!
So, here's a piece of advice and changing the subject to help you UNDERSTAND my point of view before laughing. Do you have the slightest idea how and when appeared the name "brass" in English? Do you have the knowledge what meant the word "bersil" in ancient portuguese? Do you think is just a coincidence the use of the letters BRZL in Hebrew in reference to iron? Do you know the meaning of the name Tiahuanaco or Titicaca? You mention the word "elephant", ok, can you say to me the origin of that word or what kind of "elephant" was Plato thinking of when he wrote it and even much earlier cos he copied the idea of something well before his time? I understood you completely but it seems to me you fail to do it. You just keep on manifesting your interest in Greek and that's the main source of your whole argument spinning around the same thing.Let's say you find the word "hipo" (hypo?) meaning "horse", it's not enough for me.Because I know hipopotamus doesn't look like a horse, the name was set just meaning "horse of the water" or sea or river. I want to know the origin of the things. Your argument is simplistic. Let's say Plato talks about Egypt. I don't care if you say to me in that time Egypt was not Egypt but Greek Aegyptus. I wanna know if that Aegyptus was something different like Hikuptah in the time of Plato's reference, meaning Temple of Ka of Ptah (Memphis' god), I wanna know if in previous times that name was related to Cam-Ham and his brother Mizraim called by arabs Al-mizraim.But of course, you will laugh at me cos you have no idea what I'm talking about.I would like to know the menaing of AMENTI or what was that "west" and place of reeds.I would like to think not about Pillars of Gibraltar looking in modern maps but how was the Earth when Plato's reference to ancient stories.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-22-2003 09:06           
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Why I would try to investigate the source of the words and not take them as they are, pure, simple and clear Greek you would ask me? Because it was not something Plato invented, it was a story he heard and passed through previous generations, earlier than preciousssss Greek. Thus what Erick or you have said it doesn't represent any teaching to me, I already knew that simple thing, for Christ sake! Most of us already know that.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-22-2003 09:14           
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With all do respect, what we have in education is just paradigmas. How many times have you heard the parents of aviation were the Wright brothers? You can hear that crap in the movies, in documentaries, in books. Yet do you have any idea who was Santos Drumond? Wright brothers knew him very well and refused to accept a challenge done by him. Yet you must be taught about American heroes. Do you think in China they are gonna listen the absurdity Christopher Columbus (actually the name was Cristoforo Colombo)was the first to discover America? Or I can make the question in another way to erase the Mona Lisa smile in your mouth: what do you know really about China? Hence, if we don't know too much about historic places already existing, don't come to me with simplistic arguments like Plato's used of Greek to tell me a story about something nobody have ever discovered yet!!!
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oscar
Member   posted 06-22-2003 09:26           
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orechalkoio sounds different than oricalcum, right? qoricallqo in Inca language was an alloy and they didn't learn it from Spaniards knowing Greek and Latin. That is a fact you only know cos I'm telling you.Nobody taught you in the school or university anything about Quechua language. In fact, the only thing probably you could read -if you are more or less cultivated- is the Incas didn't have a written language which is also incorrect 'teaching'.Yet, since I know Americans are adicted to tv and when they reached 60 years old they have spent already 9 years in front of the screen, I don't have too much confidence in an average of people who can't even point out where is their own state in the map! Yet,in other practical issues you have the knowledge the rest of the world fail to achieve. You can build an automobile or a nuke bomb in your garage, a gravitatory defying device in a lab,internet as a game in the university and so on....yet this is partial "education". The world needs an equilibrium, even to study who invented pyramids, noodles,print before Gütenberg, sismographers,tiny objects made of copper and covered with gold...using electricity "empirically"...

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atalante
Member   posted 06-22-2003 10:12           
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Oscar,
I ran a Google search of the whole internet, using only your one word "qoricallque".
Google was able to find your posting on this forum. But it seems that no other person(s) on the internet is using your word.

Are you spelling your word correctly?


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 06-22-2003).]

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xfx
Member   posted 06-22-2003 12:20           
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Oscar... hehe. Sorry for laughing. What I meant was that the Atlanteans called it in english translation "mountain copper"
whatever mountain copper was. Thats why he used the greek words orei and chalkoi to write it. He knewed the meaning and the preist in Egypt probably translated it to Greek for Solon. If many words in anciant American civilizations turns out to be very similiar to Greek or Latin etc maybe its because there was some contact between Ancient Europa and America in the past and it was forgotten maybe coz of the destruction of an ancient civilization of Sea peoples ( Atlantis? ) Or maybe the Phoenician people is involved in ancient trips to the New World. I dont know but I think there is not enough evidence to prove or disprove any of these suggestions.
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xfx
Member   posted 06-22-2003 12:23           
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And if the New World and Old World made contact in the past I think I think the words came from the much older Old World civilizations and was used in the new world civilizations and not the other way.
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xfx
Member   posted 06-22-2003 13:56           
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btw Oscar. I´m very well "overall" informed about the the different civilizations around the globe and their similarities and legends.
Btw, Im not an American. Where are you from Oscar?
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Riven
Member   posted 06-22-2003 17:49           
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Oscar is right. You can not base finding Atlantis on Plato and his translations. Of course we need to go backwards in time to know how it was spoken and written in Egyptian not Greek. We also need to look at all varieties of a word in as many cultures as possible to achieve better results in understanding it's true meaning. Herodotus to me seems more factual than Plato. We need to look at all cultures and their folklores as is evident with the GREAT FLOOD stories and all their similarities. Within all these Myths lie the HIDDEN truth. Thanks to PRIESTS and secret societies we may never know in our lifetime. Just like FreeMasons SHAPE our world today. MAYBE that's why the rest of Critias is lost.....or is it? So lets not close this thread for knowledge is power, rather lets see and hear all the different meanings of the word from all cultures. For we are men of reason,not men who worship things with no reason.
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oscar
Member   posted 06-22-2003 18:13           
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xfx: It's good to doubt and I can see in spite of the fact you agree with Erick, your attitude is completly different from his stubburness, you're open minded and that is excelent.I'm Peruvian son of dad from Argentina, mom from Chile (my wife is from Brazil), greatgrandson of Italians and Irish and descent from Spanish who mingled with Visigodos with different races.So, I'm not really partial when I do investigate these things, I comprehend all our bloods are well too mingled.Specially since an uncle was Arab and other Jew!
It's gonna be difficult to prove things buried in this big planet, it's gonna be very difficult to make the scholars think and re-think about their accepted dogmas. If I start telling you all the flaws and black holes in every single area you believe is real "science"...my friend you're gonna be exhausted of all the things I could write.Check some of my postings all around this forum and it's just a part of the things I have in mind. Others were already erased here cos the issues have limited time if nobody replies. Very often some of my critics just give up or don't have anything to add after a whiiiiiiile!
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xfx
Member   posted 06-22-2003 18:56           
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Riven, Plato didnt translate anything. The Egyptian priest did. He probably knewed both the Greek and the Egyptian language. He noticed that the meaning of the original Egyptian word in the legend was mountain copper and therefore translated it to greek as mountain copper. Plato didnt know what mountain copper was and probably not the preist either. understand? What you are saying (Raven) is wierd. This is simple language translation and has nothing to do with another civilizations words. It has to do with meanings of words. Obviously the meaning in this case was mountain copper.
Example: maybe its name in Egypt language was gyro-orsa. Then we find that the name for Iron in India is gyr-orsa. Does this mean that the thing was Iron!? No... we have to look in the meanings of the names, not the name. Obviously the meaning in this case was mountain copper.

If the original Egyptian word could mean more things than just mountain copper it could be one of those other things we dont know about, cuz the preist had never been in Atlantis and didnt know what of this different meanings of the original word he should use for translation to Greek. He picked one of them. It could be the wrong one or the right one. That we will never know.

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xfx
Member   posted 06-22-2003 19:01           
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I can agree with you Oscar that Eric is a bit to little "open minded" but he´s right in many cases. And in the case of orichalcum he´s absolutly right. You only need to me logical in mind to understand that. And even if it´s good to be open minded its also good to be a scientist and wait for true evidence.
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Riven
Member   posted 06-23-2003 12:03           
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xFx; The Egyptians translated Atlantis into thier language, Solon translated it to Greek(Hellenic).Critias. The word orichalcum has at least 75,000 incidents in relation to texts. xFx quote: "Plato didnt know what mountain copper was and probably not the preist either. understand?" You don't actually believe that do you? What was the egyptian word for Orichalcum? Orichalcum is more of a latin word. We know it's a yellow copper or red copper or some form of brass etc. The point of all the different cultural definitons gives us a better idea to what it is exactly in the sense of an average meaning. Maybe orichalcum isn't the right word as it seems too simple re; mountain copper. Maybe the average will give us a more exact meaning to what this metal is. Say we start noticing that timbuktu is more common to this and it tells us that it is copper/ore/and Electrum. In other words I'm looking for a more exact word other than oriechalkos or orichalcum,etc. Ancient Alchemy I believe has to figure in this element. Just like you said we have to look at the meaning of this name.
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xfx
Member   posted 06-23-2003 04:53           
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The Egyptian word for "oreichalkos" which was the first and original word for the thing
means mountain + copper whatever the name was. ( orei = mountain, chalkos = copper ) When the preist translated it to greek he looked into the meaning of the word in Egypt. The meaning was obviously mountain+copper. The word in Egypt was probably a totally other word not near oreichalkos. The Latin word Orichalcum has nothing to do with the text, the modern Translators translated the original greek "oreichalkos" to the Latin Orichalcum which was a big mistake. oreichalkos is ofcourse a little like to latin Orichalcum, but thats because the languages is related to each other and sometimes loan words from each other. It has nothing to do with it. It should be correctly translated mountain+copper. The word orei is very old and means mountain. It goes back to atleast 1500 B.C
Atlantis Greek translation goes back to 600 B.C
Plato didnt know what mountain copper was and probably not the preist either. understand?" You said: You don't actually believe that do you?

What I mean is that he didnt know what mountain copper was. A modern example is catfish. catfish isnt a cat which is a fish, its a kind of fish. Its just 2 words. In the same way mountain copper isnt copper in the mountains. Its just a name for something including copper(probably including copper), like catfish is something including fish and
look a little bit like a cat.

Forget about the word Orichalcum, it has nothing to do with this and never had.

If you find a metall or alloy in America which the inhabitants there always called mountain copper with a word meaning "mountain copper", then I would listen to you.

As I said Im open minded and it could be that the original meaning of that south-american word maybe was "mountain copper" cuz it was a loan word and came with ancient seafarers across the Atlantic.




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xfx
Member   posted 06-23-2003 05:32           
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When the Egyptian priest translated the original Egyptian word for Solon in 600 B.C he used 2 Greek words. Orei and Chalkos. Orei means mountain and is a very old word you can trace back way before 1500 B.C
Chalkos means copper and is very old to.
If you put them together you get the meaning of the original Egyptian word. Why should the preist use a South-American word when he wanted to translate the original Egypt word to Greek for Solon. Solon didnt know any South-American languages.
Example: a person unfamiliar with catfish dont know what catfish is more than that the meaning of the name is cat+fish. I have never seen a catfish. I dont know what it is.

You said: Just like you said we have to look at the meaning of this name.

Ofcourse. And the meaning is atleast Orei for the first part. And Orei is "mountain" no doubt. It maybe could be that another meaning for chalkos could be "metall" like Eric´s suggestion. Then it would be mountain metall. You can ask any researcher in ancient Greek language about the meaning of orei. It could ofcourse be electrum if metall(instead of copper) is the right solution to the problem, but in Solon´s time chalkos was always used as a word meaning copper or an alloy containing copper. Therefore we should beleive that the Egyptian preist wanted to tell us the meaning of the red thing the Atlantean used. The meaning of what the Atlantean called it ( or rather the meaning of the Egyptian word ) was therefore mountain copper.

As I said above it also could be that the Egyptian original word could mean more than one thing and that the Egyptian preist translated the wrong one to Greek for Solon, cuz he had never been in Atlantis himself. He just read the texts in the Egyptian temples.

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xfx
Member   posted 06-23-2003 05:41           
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Example: maybe the original Egyptian word could mean both copper and red shining metall/stone. The Egyptian preist translated it as copper. Maybe that was the wrong one.
We will probably never know that before we find Atlantis. ( if it existed )

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Riven
Member   posted 06-23-2003 17:57           
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Ishtar; excellent work. That is a good website. Now we can see many variations of the word copper. Still diggin.
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xfx
Member   posted 06-23-2003 18:56           
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Nice

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atalante
Member   posted 06-24-2003 11:08           
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The Greek language uses a word for copper which is cognate (shared) with only 2 other languages. Greek "chalcos"
= Aromanian Vlach "halcuma"
= Romani gypsy "charcum/harcuma"
You can see this word-sharing by studying the multidictionary for metals in 119 languages: www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/fecu.html

The Vlach shepherds today wander around the Balkan mountains, and extend as far south as Greece. The gypsies wander more widely.

The earliest mines in Europe were copper mines in the Balkans and in southern Bulgaria. Here is a link which discusses the history of mining in the Balkans:
www.mineralresourcesforum.org/docs/pdfs/SalaticPlenary.pdf

Here is a link which explains Stara Zagora, the largest neolithic city in Bulgaria (founded 6000 BC), which also happens to be connected to the oldest copper mine in Europe. This was a huge mining complex, and has been dated to 5000 BC: www.szeda.bg/tourism/museums.html

So it appears that the Greek language received its word "chalcos" due to the traders which first brought copper into Greece from the region of the Balkan mountains.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 06-24-2003).]




[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 06-24-2003).]

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Riven
Member   posted 06-24-2003 15:05           
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http://www.chem.auth.gr/english/Greek1.html
"Copper is a well known element and its symbol is, curiously enough,CU,originating from the latin name for the element CUPRUM.
This name is a corruption of the Greek name which is CYPREION(eyoneii)identifying its origin from the island of Cypros where larde deposits of the metal are still present even after many centuries of exploitation. the greek name for the element is CHALCOS(-aeeuo). Correspondingly,CHALCOGENIDES are called the elements of the 16th group of the periodicity table which are forming the major copper ores." I am still searching through ancient alchemical texts for clues.
One thing certain is that the alchemists had 3 principals deriving from MERCURY,SALT,and SULPHUR. This was the "Vinegar"used to extract the purities of most metals. Even though this copper was dug up it had to be worked properly to create this red brilliance and shine in the finished product as well as durability. There is mention in Greek texts of PSEUDARGUROS a mixture of silver-zinc. We all know that there are similar varieties of the word orichalcum,auriechalcum,oreichalkos which looking at the word in primeval form basically is a yellow or gold copper. Possibly to enhance its brilliance Electrum could have been added and Cinnabar to give it the "Breath of Fire". Possibly.Haven"t found a link yet though,just a hypothesis. I don't mean to change the subject but their is mention of Plato being a Mason or member of a or his secret society. It could be possible that his texts are all geomatric codes.(Numbers represented by letters according to Greek alphabet) Just a curious thought.

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TheWndrer
Member   posted 06-24-2003 17:38           
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What about the possibility of it being the gold colored, super hard copper that many axes, knives etc. that the conquistadores thought was gold when they raped and pillaged south america and are still being found in the cenotes in the Yucatan?
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sierraslidr@yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger ID = sierraslidr

Mmmmmmm, CHEESECAKE!!!!

[This message has been edited by TheWndrer (edited 06-24-2003).]

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oscar
Member   posted 06-24-2003 22:20           
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Atalante wrote an excelent posting. In fact I'm particularly interested in the mention of languages and races which we don't know too much about like Romany and Gypsies, like Guanche of the people from Canary islands (the name of DOGS in Latin because there were no dogs in those islands), Quechua from the Incas, Quiche from Mayas, Nahuatl from Aztecs, rongorongo from Pascua island, etrurian and Vasco...these are the languages and the people who are interesting to search. As I said before the word qoricollque exists in Quechua language and was an alloy, so the question is when and where did the Greeks or Latins (Romans)learned the knowledge of such an alloy? Can we find the same alloy with similar name as orichalcum in other enigmatic languages?
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atalante
Member   posted 06-25-2003 10:43           
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Plato says that the Atlanteans were quarrying white, black, and red rock underneath their ancient metropolis. These Atlantean people represent the first (eneolithic) copper miners.
So the colors of the rocks which they quarried should represent various copper ores: CHALCOSITE (Copper Sulphate), CUPRITE (Copper Oxide) and CHALCOPYRITE (Copper Iron Sulphate.

The ores themselves are plentiful. But it is hard to find crystals of Cuprite which are of gemstone-quality. If you study the picture in the following link, you will see that "crystal Cuprite" (which mineralogists sometimes call Ruby Copper), is presumably the "rare" form of oreichalc which Plato admired so much: www.gemhut.com/cuprite.htm


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Erick Wright
Member   posted 06-25-2003 21:41           
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Oscar,
O.K. I’ve had it with your constant insistence that any of the languages of the Americas had/have anything to do with the GREEK word “oreicalchos” found in Plato’s Timaeus & Critias. This irrational desire of yours to identify Atlantis with the Inca, Aztec, Maya, or any other group of Quechumaran-speaking peoples is completely unfounded and without basis in fact. I will not allow you to mislead the participants of a thread I started with your inaccuracies. It is time to put this baby to bed.

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Indian Languages of the Americas
The languages of the Indians of the Americas exhibit great diversity in both vocabulary and grammar. In the 1920's, Edward Sapir proposed 6 "superstocks", or very large, general groupings based on grammatical similarities for the Indian languages north of Mexico: Eskimo-Aleut, Nadene, Algonkian, Hokan-Siouan, Penutian, and Aztec-Tanoan. Today, these groupings are generally recognized as families, with the following changes: Eskimo-Aleut is now called Inuit-Aleut, Algonkian has been broadened to Algonkian-Mosan, and the latter 2 have been combined into a new, larger family called Macro-Penutian. (In 1960-1970, Joseph Greenberg lumped Algonkian-Mosan, Hokan-Siouan and Macro-Penutian into a proto-proto-language he called Amerind. This classi-
fication is still widely contested by many linguists, and is not used in this work.) Many of the languages of Mexico and Central America have been found to fall into one of these families.
Linguists also now generally recognize 4 other language families in Central and South America:
Andean-Equatorial, Ge-Pano-Carib, Macro-Chibchan, and Oto-Manguean.
Andean Equatorial
The Andean Equatorial family of languages is one of four language families now generally recognized for Mexico, Central and South America. The Andean Equatorial languages, with the exception of Garifuna, are all found in South Amerida. The family is divided into five branches: Equatorial, Aymara-Quechua, Tupi-Guarani, Jivaro-Tucano, and Tierra del Fuegan. Best known of the Andean Equatorial languages are Arawak, Aymara, Quechua (the language of the Inca civilization), and Jivaro.
Aymara
Aymara (Andean Equatorial) belongs to the Aymara-Quechua branch of the Andean Equatorial family of languages. Aymara is spoken in the country of Peru, and also in Bolivia, Chile, and Argentina.
Quechua
Quechua (Andean Equatorial), also spelled Kechua and Quichua, belongs to the Aymara-Quechua branch of the Andean Equatorial family of languages. Quechua was the language of the Incas and is still spoken today in Peru and neighboring countries. In fact, in Peru there are almost as many speakers of Quechua as of Spanish. Indeed, like Navajo,
Quechua is one of the few American Indian languages which is increasing in number of speakers. There are a number of dialects. The Incas did not develop an alphabet, but instead kept records by means of a "quipu" (Quechua for "knot"), an arrangement of variously-colored cords knotted in different ways. These quipus were reminders of the oral-tradition literature. Quechua has been written with the Latin alphabet since the Spanish Conquest, but still today spelling is not standardized. Media Lengua is a creole mixing Spanish and Quechua.


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Source: http://www.lib.umt.edu/guide/lang/natlanh.htm#NatLan
These two languages are usually grouped together into the branch known as Quechumaran. Quechumaran was spoken by the Incan empire. The Inca empire lasted from approximately 1200-1600 AD. This is at least 1500 years AFTER Plato wrote the Timaeus and Critias.


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Macro-Penutian
Macro-Penutian is one of the families of North American Indian languages. It is comprised of two of the "superstocks," Penutian and Aztec-Tanoan, originally proposed by the linguist Edward Sapir. It includes a number of languages divided among the following branches: Penutian, Mapudungu, Huave, Mixe-Zoquean, Totonac, Mayan, and Aztec-Tanoan.
Quiche
Quiche (Macro-Penutian), also spelled K'iche, belongs to the Quichean sub-branch of the Greater Quichean sub-branch of the Eastern Mayan sub-branch of the Main Mayan sub-branch of the Mayan branch of the Macro-Penutian family of languages. Quiche is spoken in Guatemala. The Popul Vuh, the sacred book of the pre-Hispanic Maya, was written in Quiche.


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Source: http://www.lib.umt.edu/guide/lang/natlanh.htm#NatLan
The Mayan civilization was at its height from between approximately 300-900 A.D.; this is when the Pyramid of the Sun was constructed. This is at least 600 years AFTER Plato wrote the Timaeus and Critias.


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Nahuatl
Nahuatl (Macro-Penutian), also called Aztec, belongs to the Nahuatlan sub-branch of the Uto-Aztecan sub-branch of the Aztec-Tanoan branch of the Macro-Penutian family of languages. Nahuatl was the language of the Aztec empire. It is still widely spoken in Mexico. At the time of the Spanish conquest, Nahuatl was written in pictographs, but the Spaniards introduced the Latin alphabet which has been used since then. Sierra Nahuatl is regarded as a dialect by some scholars and as a separate language by others. It is treated separately herein. Mexica is another dialect.
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Source: http://www.lib.umt.edu/guide/lang/natlanh.htm#NatLan
The Toltec empire lasted from approximately 900-1350 A.D. They took power after the disintegration of the Mayan empire. The Aztecs were the next to take power, and they took it from the Toltecan empire in 1325. The Aztec empire was at its height from between 1428-1521 A.D. This is at least 1700 years AFTER Plato wrote the Timaeus and Critias.
Much emphasis has been placed by Oscar on the Oltec civilization and their stylized stone heads. In regards to that:


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 4. Middle Formative (Pre-Classic) Period 900-300 BC
Olmec civilization; widespread trade; diffusion of Olmec traits in many directions; class divisions. Spread of Mayan speakers into Lowlands seems to have occurred in this period.
Caution: The most famous artifacts of the Olmecs were giant stone heads. Some observers have regarded them as having "Negroid" features and have therefore imagined African influence. This calls for much derivative speculation about how such influence could have occurred. Had Africans settled in Mexico, they would almost certainly have brought Old World diseases far earlier than the Spanish did. More likely the stylization of the giants heads is merely that: stylization.
And:

5. Late Formative (Pre-Classic) Period
Mexico: 300 BC - AD 150; Maya Area: 300 BC - AD 250
(Traditionally 300 for both areas)
"Urban Revolution": building of the great urban centers, new social class divisions.
(Note: If there were trans-Pacific contacts, they would have occurred sometime before the end of this period, since the "shared cultural traits" were then in place. However neither material goods nor diseases seem to have moved across the sea by this time, so "shared cultural traits" must be provisionally attributed either to chance or to parallel developments from traditions that antedate the last of the Beringia migrations.)


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Source: http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/arch/mexchron.html

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About Indo-Hittite Languages
The Indo-Hittite family of languages is more commonly called Indo-European, but since one branch of the family also has that name, the name Indo-Hittite will be used for the family in this work, to avoid confusion. The Indo-European branch has the following sub-branches: Albanian, Armenian, Balto-Slavic, Celtic, Germanic, Hellenic, Illyric, Indo-Iranian, Italic, Macedonian, Ligurian, Sicilian, Thraco-Phrygian, and Tocharian. The other branch of the Indo-Hittite family is Anatolian, which includes Hittite as well as several other lesser-known languages. Some of the languages comprising the Indo-European branch are: Bengali, Dutch, English, French, German, Greek, Gujarati, Hindi, Icelandic, Irish, Italian, Kashmiri, Latin, Marathi, Norwegian, Panjabi, Persian, Polish, Portuguese, Rajasthani, Romany, Russian, Spanish, Swedish, and Welsh. The genetic relationships among languages descended from (Proto-)Indo-European have been studied by Western linguists more than those for any other group of languages.
Greek

Greek (Indo-Hittite) belongs to the Hellenic sub-branch of the Indo-European branch of the Indo-Hittite family of languages. Ancient Greek includes Mycenaean Greek – found in a style of writing now called Linear B --, West Greek (which includes Doric), and East Greek (divided into Aeolic, Arcado-Cyprian, and Attic-Ionic, which includes Attic and Ionic. Ionic later gave rise to Koine, the most common dialect at the time of Christ -- and thus the dialect of the Greek New Testament. Hellenistic Greek was a variety of Koine. Koine in time became Medieval Greek, of which Byzantine Greek was one dialect. Medieval
Greek in turn became Modern Greek.) Greek is the language of the country of Greece; it is also the religious language of the Greek Orthodox Church. It is written with the Greek alphabet. (Note that inscriptions found in a script now called Linear A, originally thought
to be Greek, or possibly Semitic, have now proven to be in a language called Minoan Greek, a separate but related language.)
About Austric Languages
The Austric family of languages includes languages spoken in India, Southeast Asia, and the Pacific Islands. It is divided into two branches, Austroasiatic and Austronesian, the latter formerly called Malayo-Polynesian. The Austroasiatic branch has three sub-branches: Munda, Mon-Khmer, and Vietnamese-Muong. The Munda languages are spoken in southern India. Best-known of the Mon- Khmer languages is Khmer (formerly called Cambodian), while Vietnamese belongs to the Vietnamese- Muong sub-branch. Austronesian is divided into four sub-branches: Malayan, Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesian. Among Malayan languages are Bahasa Indonesia, Balinese, Javanese, Ilocano, Tagalog, and Visayan -- the latter three spoken in the Philippines. Fijian is the best-known Melanesian language. The Micronesian sub-branch includes the languages of various small island groups: Caroline, Gilbertese, Marianne, Marshallese, Truk, and Yapese. The Polynesian languages include Hawaiian, Rarotongan, Samoan, Tahitian, Tongan, and Maori -- the language of the New Zealand aborigines. Please note that only those languages for which the Mansfield Library has some holdings are listed here.

Ambonese, Ami, Atayal, Austronesian Languages, Bahasa Indonesia, Bajau, Balinese, Batak, Bukat, Bunun, Chrau, Dayak Languages, Dehu, Efate, Futuna-Aniwa, Hawaiian, Ifugao, Illanun, Javanese, Kadazan, Kanakabau, Kereho, Busang, Kereho-Uheng, Khmer, Kiriwinian, Maduran, Makassarese, Malagasy, Malay, Malayan Languages, Maluku, Maori, Marquesan, Marshallese, Minangkabau, Mnong Gar, Mon-Khmer Languages, Murut, Oceanic Languages, Paiwin, Palau, Pangasinian, Philippine Languages, Polynesian Languages, Punan Languages, Puyuma, Rapanui, Rarotongan, Rukai, Rungus, Saaroa, Saisiyat, Samoan, Sarawak Languages, Sasak, Seedeq, Semang, Suluk, Sundanese, Tagalog, Tahitian, Tasaday, Temiar, Tiruray, Truk, Tsou, Vietnamese, Visayan, Yami


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Source: http://www.lib.umt.edu/guide/lang/natlanh.htm#NatLan
Rongorongo is Oceania's only indigenous script that predates the twentieth century.
Rongorongo evidently flourished for only about three generations, from the 1770s or 1780s up to the mid-1860s, when Rapanui society imploded.

Etruria
Napoleon established Etruria in 1801 for Louis of Bourbon-Parma (a relative of the Bourbon Spanish king).

Vasco
Vasco?! Have no freakin idea what that is! I cannot find ANY reference to that.

The late dates of almost all of these civilizations and the fact that Plato’s Timaeus and Critias PREDATES nearly all of them is the reason that I dismiss them as possibilities. It is not, as you suggest, merely “close-mindedness”.

Erick


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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2007, 09:39:32 pm »

oscar
Member   posted 06-25-2003 22:53           
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Respectfully:
First place I was making no reference to Mr.Erick. The fact he wants to put a baby to bed in arrogance is funny & laughable.The fact you quote a site it doesn't make you a daddy or a linguist, less of all languages of my country! My reference to Vasco is not a mistake, it's just a way to make a reference to Basque in Spanish as it is known in Spain, that's why you can't recognize cos you don't know and are capable to read just English sites.We can use the variation of V or B for reasons I don't care to explain.Mistake is yours when you mention Oltec civilization. Is not Oltec at all. It's real name is Olmec with M not T.Second: you are wrong saying I mentioned many times about them and their stone figures. Not at all.In fact I don't remember I have ever mentioned them unless you are wrong again and think they were the same as aztecs or mayas which is not the case.
The words written are not yours, you just glued something about the probably families of the language, not the particularities of that language. So in that sense you have said absolutely nothing against the argument the word ATL and ANTIS or QORICALLQUE had to deal with the issue we're talking about.
It's true OFFICIALY it is said Incas didn't have an alphabet but even if it's true that,it doesn't mean they didn't have scripture. Their written language was forbidden and you'll have to read the reports done by the Spaniards themselves in 16th Century but I won't do homework for you. You don't have the slightest idea who was the ruler who forbid the written language. Pirua Ayar Tacco Capac and of course you're naïve if you're gonna believe only the list of 14 incas appearing in some documents. The officiality wants to believe Pachacutec was the builder of Sacsayhuaman and Machu Picchu yet they haven't proved this at all! In fact Pachacutec is not a name of a sole Inca king but one of several reformators and the story of the Incas goes well into the past..as foggy as the Atlantis you're looking for and Tiahuanaco ruins.It's just a paradigma like Wright brothers so called "parents of aviation" or Christopher Columbus "discovery". Your knowledge about Machu Picchu is because an American gringo PAYED a Peruvian boy to help him find a city.Found other city, not the one he was looking for.With all do respect, I am the one who can put you to sleep at any time regarding my culture and Mesoamerica.The language of the Mayas has no relationship with the rest of languages in the area. The fact you mention the place Nicaragua, Guatemala or Mexico is something already known.In fact we can extend the issue mentioning the use of math codes and the use of 0 like Hindues in other part of the world.
You failed to mention rongorongo inscriptions are IDENTICAL to the ones in Mohenho Daro in the other side of the planet. That calls the attention, not just to know it was spoken in Pascua island. The linguists admitedly acknowledge their lack of conclusions regarding the languages and races quoted by me. So I would believe them rather than you who doesn't even know the difference between coca and ****,elephant with bird or mouse, Olmec with Olmet, Vasco with Basque.I could've give a big list of words to compare and meanings to show you how ignorant you are in these items. Therefore, don't think you're intimidating anybody just cos mention a site with some mistakes including. An English guy who stayed in Peru for 30 years called Willyam Glynn has many things to teach you regarding Inca consonants and numbers (similar to Hebrew system) based upon the designs done by Poma de Ayala in 16th Century. First you gotta learn what are RUNA SIMIS and then maybe I will waste my time to teach you what you completly ignore, feed you with the milk babies need to suck to be nourished.Ha-ha! You just don't have enough culture to have an inteligent dialogue. I was deceived for a few moments reading some of your stuff. But now, that I have read more and stare your stubborness I wonder if I need to keep on lecturing you.
IP: 200.243.173.85
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-25-2003 23:25           
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Adding to that I must say it's just another dogma appearing in books the idea of Inca civilization appearing in 12th Century and collapsing 300 years after.There's no way to measure the events on time in monuments made of stone both in Peru and Bolivia. Every day we are witnessing more and more evidence the culture of Americas is older than it was said in this last 100 years. I tell you something, Mr. Erick, before the Incas there were other indians and even from other races.All the documentation books tell us about, start with legends regarding Manco Capac that I can discuss to exhaustive extent with Mr. Erick or anyone here. I can write about evidence of other races in Incas land. What happens is ortodoxism prefered to believe one version of those myths. Do you think in a country like Peru with half of population being indians are they gonna explicitly explain they were just inheriting a foreign culture of dolicocephal,otghers white, bearded people with A factor in their blood before the coming of Spaniard conquerors? Of course not.So,if I spend several years of my life in Peru learning that and after did my own research in documents of 16th Century and others, I don't think an arrogant idiot like Erick is presenting any evidence of culture to discuss about quipus.These ropes were used specially cos the prohibition of the written language. In fact, the author Natalia Tarifi, descent form Etruarians acknowledges smething very important regarding those ropes with knots:
It's the case of the Quechua ROOT "IM" or IN like in simpay meaning to weave, t make knots like the Egyptian goddess NeItha and the creator MINu represented with ropes and the king MINOs in Crete. MINotaurus was the TORUS or bull, but in Latin language TORUS was a rope with knots like quipus of the incas. MINOs the king had the knots of adMINistration and ecoNoMY.We think words like adMINistration, MINister, SYMpathy come from Latin source but that linguist explain it's wrong cos that source already existed in America before (Etrurians Came from America by Natalia Rosi de Tariffi).In quechua language the word MINI is weaving and Mr. Erick will think is a funny coincidence the goddess MINerva was the one who was sewing in Greece. The other name was PALLAS Atenea yet in Quechua of the Incas the ROOT is the same and OLDER, the word was PALLAY which is also weaving. Does it look like PALLAS?
Even if Mr.Erick wants to know about the official literature I would advice him to take a glance to Memorias Antiguas,Chapters XIV,XV and IX by Fernando Montesinos who traveled through Peru from 1628 to 1643 or Garcylaso (Garcilazo) de la Vega.I had the privilege of reading it in the original ancient Spanish.It's ptetty obvious Erick hasn't read even a brief Reader's Digest version in English! Go ahead, baby boy, make my day!
IP: 200.243.173.85
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-25-2003 23:34           
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I don't want to BELIEVE Mr. Erick is so stupid he just quoted exactly a site about FLAGS to my reference to Etrurian language. Check his words about Napoleon founded Etruria with the following site: www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/it-etrur.html
Don't make me laugh!!!!!
I'm talking about Etrurian language,dummy!

IP: 200.243.173.85
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-27-2003 01:44           
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I knew that explanation of the site regarding the word NAI (from Noah)HU ATL and the explanations regarding Greek.And once again, Plato made his reference to elephants and the same guys in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras depicted the elephants whether Erick wants to look them or disregard.
IP: 200.243.173.12
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-27-2003 01:46           
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I mispelled the name of Egyptian godess NEITH
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Riven
Member   posted 06-29-2003 05:00           
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Original Greek; XALKO/V Transl; CHALKOS
Copper-Kop'er(Nechsheth)
nekh-o-sheth........Phoenetic
t#xn-original hebrew. nechosheth
h#wxn " " nechuwshah
Orov,Oros,Oro(Greek)...A Mountain
har,Harar(Hebrew)......A "

Old Testament 2500-3500 years ago. Another possibility might be Resins that they could have used to protect it and shine fiery. A mixture of Amber? They should make orichalcum life savers.

IP: 142.161.176.44
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 07:49           
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Nahash means snake in Hebrew, yet nehoshet is also copper and hidden meaning of snake is "the one who knows the secret of the copper". Mr. Erick wouldn't know, for example, the Mayas used the word NACHÁN meaning "place of snakes". It would be considered as simple rarity or coincidence. Moses himself did a snake made of copper which eventually was transfomed in idol called Noestá. Numbers 21:6-9; John 3:14 (Jesus compared that ADN cross -snake and stake- like his own torture giving LIFE), 2 Kings 18:4.And oh, yes, Sumerian had the same archetype even before Moses and Egypt: www.sitchin.com/adam.htm

IP: 200.251.38.239
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 07:57           
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Don't get me wrong, but the whole reason of the orichalcum was for reasons beyond our understanding. If even Tesla Coils using copper can create A VIOLET DOUBLE DNA SNAKE OF LIGHT in a pyramid...: www.keelynet.com/unclass/hardy1.htm
...imagine what an specific alloy could eventually do in determined circumstances! Do you know copper 62 is used for emission of antiparticles? Why? Maybe to go beyond some men have already gone before, the anti-universe or even some place in Orion or Mars.Yet, technology used by ancient ones in Bolivia, in Peru , in Mexico, in Egypt, etc, seemed to be forgotten by those who practiced it.Tell me whyyyy, I,I,I,I...I,I?
Because men need something more than techno-knowledge.

IP: 200.251.38.239
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 06-29-2003 18:44           
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Oscar,
Oh, Oscar. You've finally managed to "out" yourself to everyone - not that I wasn't already aware of what you are. Despite what you claim to know, your very own words proclaim your ignorance.


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The fact you quote a site it doesn't make you a daddy or a linguist, less of all languages of my country!
The words written are not yours, you just glued something about the probably families of the language, not the particularities of that language. So in that sense you have said absolutely nothing against the argument the word ATL and ANTIS or QORICALLQUE had to deal with the issue we're talking about.


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The fact that - after having read all of what I posted (if you actually did) - you still do not understand why the Quechumaran and Nahuatl languages have nothing to do with Plato's Atlantis, tells me that you know absolutely nothing about linguistics (mind you, it is not necessary to be a linguist in order to have a general knowledge of linguistics). If you had read what I posted you would understand that the Greek "oreichalcos" and the Quechuan "Qoricallque" (or Quichean or whatever the hell it is) have absolutely no similarity other than by chance BECAUSE they come from completely different Language Families! If the two languages had shared a common ancestry, that is to say if both languages - Greek and Quechuan - had originally come from the same "parent language", then they would be listed in the Linguistic hierarchy as being from the same "Family" of languages. Any similarity between words is therefore nothing more than coincidental. The word "oreichalcos" is a Greek word that means "copper that is of, or belonging to, the mountains". What was the word that the Atlanteans used to say the same thing? Nobody knows! But it sure as hell didn't come from a civilization that existed across the Atlantic Ocean. You seem to forget that the diseases the Europeans brought with them from the Old World decimated the native populations. Had there been contact with the Old World prior to the arrival of the Spaniards, then those diseases would not have had the devastating effect that they did. ESPECIALLY if that contact had occured as far back in the past as you suggest; their populations would have had time to develop the necessary anti-bodies and pass it along to their descendants. This is a nearly insurmountable obstacle for the Pre-Columbian or Pre-Viking theorists (like yourself) to overcome.


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My reference to Vasco is not a mistake, it's just a way to make a reference to Basque in Spanish as it is known in Spain, that's why you can't recognize cos you don't know and are capable to read just English sites.We can use the variation of V or B for reasons I don't care to explain.
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O.K. So, I am an English-speaking person, you used a Spanish reference to the word Basque, and I didn't recognize it. Am I supposed to be "shamed" by this?


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Mistake is yours when you mention Oltec civilization. Is not Oltec at all. It's real name is Olmec with M not T.
I mispelled the name of Egyptian godess NEITH



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Apparently the mis-spelling of words is a trait that is not just limited to us "arrogant Americans". eh, Oscar? In fact, you mis-spelled several words in your most recent postings, like "Mohenho Daro" (Mohenjo Daro), Etruarians (Etrurian), otghers (others), ortodoxism (orthodoxism), etc., etc., etc.. You might have noticed, however, that the word OLMEC was directly underneath the word Oltec, a mis-spelling that was most likely derived from the viewing of too many words with the suffix "tec", such as Aztec, Mixtec, Zapotec, etc..

Incidentally, it has not gone without notice that your arguments seem to be composed mostly of derogatory remarks, name-calling, and insults. For instance:


quote:
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arrogant idiot like Erick
Mr. Erick is so stupid

dummy!

You just don't have enough culture to have an inteligent dialogue.


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This is the type of behavior that is indicative of either an adolescent (i.e. someone without maturity) or someone who knows that their arguments have no merit. Which of these are you, Oscar?


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You failed to mention rongorongo inscriptions are IDENTICAL to the ones in Mohenho Daro in the other side of the planet.
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You have either been very badly informed or you are actively and deliberately seeking to mislead the members of this forum. The Rongorongo inscriptions are absolutely NOT identical to the writing system in Mohenjo Daro (i.e. the Indus Valley Script); the only trait that these two writing systems share is that they are both undeciphered writing systems. Rongorongo was developed on Rapanui island (late in the development of their civilization, I might add), and there it remained (the Isla de Pascua) until its discovery in the 19th century.


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So I would believe them rather than you who doesn't even know the difference between coca and ****
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I find it odd that you won't let this one go, especially because you are wrong! What was found in the mummies was traces of the chemical Tetrahydrocannibalis (THC). It is the main, active, ingredient in both **** and hashish that gives them both their halucinogenic properties. But hey, don't trust me! Why not read it for yourself in the very link that you provided in one of your own postings! http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html


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Adding to that I must say it's just another dogma appearing in books the idea of Inca civilization appearing in 12th Century and collapsing 300 years after.There's no way to measure the events on time in monuments made of stone both in Peru and Bolivia.
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First of all, nobody said that the Inca Empire only lasted for 300 years; what has been said is that the Inca Empire was at its height during those 300 years. Additionally, you are correct - you cannot measure time on monuments made of stone - unless of course the monuments themselves record the dates for you, but you would still want to study the stratigraphy of the entire area surrounding the monument - which is exactly what archaeologists and historians have done. The stratigraphical analysis has left little room for doubt.


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In fact, the author Natalia Tarifi, descent form Etruarians acknowledges smething very important regarding those ropes with knots:
It's the case of the Quechua ROOT "IM" or IN like in simpay meaning to weave, t make knots like the Egyptian goddess NeItha and the creator MINu represented with ropes and the king MINOs in Crete. MINotaurus was the TORUS or bull, but in Latin language TORUS was a rope with knots like quipus of the incas. MINOs the king had the knots of adMINistration and ecoNoMY.We think words like adMINistration, MINister, SYMpathy come from Latin source but that linguist explain it's wrong cos that source already existed in America before (Etrurians Came from America by Natalia Rosi de Tariffi).
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Is this a quote from her book, and if not, why are you so adverse to listing quotes in your postings?


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I don't want to BELIEVE Mr. Erick is so stupid he just quoted exactly a site about FLAGS to my reference to Etrurian language.
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Have you completely lost your sense of humor, Oscar? Of course I know about the Etrurian language - although, here in America, and outside of Academia, it is more commonly referred to as the Etruscan language, or the language of the Etruscans. A good website that discusses the archaeological finds, a compilation of the Etruscan/Etrurian phrases that we now know of due to those finds, and an attempt at their translation, is: http://www.paisano.it/my/kanto.html


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Nahash means snake in Hebrew, yet nehoshet is also copper and hidden meaning of snake is "the one who knows the secret of the copper". Mr. Erick wouldn't know, for example, the Mayas used the word NACHÁN meaning "place of snakes". It would be considered as simple rarity or coincidence. Moses himself did a snake made of copper which eventually was transfomed in idol called Noestá. Numbers 21:6-9; John 3:14 (Jesus compared that ADN cross -snake and stake- like his own torture giving LIFE), 2 Kings 18:4.
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Are you actually quoting Bible verses now, Oscar? So, the hidden meaning of snake is "the one who knows the secret of copper", eh? And how, pray thee do tell, would you ever know this if it is so hidden? Are you the purveyor of secret, hidden, knowledge now? Truly, cut it out...my sides are starting to hurt! Um, a correction seems to be in order here - the snake was brass, not copper, and the later reference to this event in John 3:14 (only by looking up to Christ on the cross can you be "saved") had absolutely nothing to do with deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA by the way, not ADN). So let me see if I've got this straight - you believe that, when the Israelites were wandering in the desert, and when one of them was bitten by a snake, by looking upon a double-helix strand of DNA that Moses had somehow mounted on a staff (not that they would have been able to see it), their life was spared? I think that you might want to lay off the Cuervo, Oscar.


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Don't get me wrong, but the whole reason of the orichalcum was for reasons beyond our understanding. If even Tesla Coils using copper can create A VIOLET DOUBLE DNA SNAKE OF LIGHT in a pyramid...: www.keelynet.com/unclass/hardy1.htm</A>
...imagine what an specific alloy could eventually do in determined circumstances! Do you know copper 62 is used for emission of antiparticles? Why? Maybe to go beyond some men have already gone before, the anti-universe or even some place in Orion or Mars.Yet, technology used by ancient ones in Bolivia, in Peru , in Mexico, in Egypt, etc, seemed to be forgotten by those who practiced it.Tell me whyyyy, I,I,I,I...I,I?
Because men need something more than techno-knowledge.
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O.K., you see, this is where you really "outed" yourself and showed your true colors. I've suspected it for quite some time now, but was unable to pinpoint any specific posting...until now.

You're a New Ager!

Try again.

Erick


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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


[This message has been edited by Erick Wright (edited 06-29-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Erick Wright (edited 06-29-2003).]

IP: 63.155.188.165
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 19:56           
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I read alright your postings. It doesn't matter if you write in black, the fact is the linguists don't have a consensus about language families in all cases, specially the ones I quoted. You admit yourself rongorongo has not been desiphered, how on Earth then we may believe the experts can tell us the "family". The ethnologists and linguist are still discussing the source and you want us to believe they already know the families! It's your faith cos you can be very naïve with some things. If I say Mohenjo Daro is identical to rongorongo language is cos I have seen the symbols in books and sites. You are only repeating what we know (it's the second repetition actually) one is from Pascua Island (Rapa Nui) and the other in Indu Valley. In fact someone who discussed too much about Atlantis and was a linguist, Charles Berlitz, wrote a book in 1982 named Native Tongues where you can actually see the inscriptions and his other book Mysteries of Forgotten Worlds. You can disagree with some conclusions but he was a linguist and not the only one mentioning this fact. I'll try to search a site to show everybody for them to judge. My transliteration of Mojenjo Daro with J is not wrong, I'm using J on purpose cos the name is not English and the same thing happens with Protestants using the name Jehovah while sefardits in Spain use Yahveh. So I have good reasons to use J rather than H in specific names. It is not the case with your error about Olmecs which I never mentioned as you said.You don't have to be ashamed of not knowing Basque or Vasco, just gotta be informed before trying to argue!!!! Specially since they live in a country where the people don't speak English but Spanish!
My saying about **** is cos people usually think about modern **** and confuse this with coca leaves. The site specifically says **** came from Erythroxylon Coca.
Good thing after your mistake about Etruria in a site quoting flags and Napoleon (!)NOW you can say "of course I knew it" having a little time to do homework.Thanks of my response. You're welcome! Now you know better and found a better site, how convenient!
Snake was made of copper. The copper itself eventually could be used to make bronze. If I know some things or not I let the readers to judge.There are hidden messages in the Bible and Hebrew allows this.
You are the one discussing Atlantis and acuse ME to be a New Ager? Would that constitute an error? The fact a determine site provides the information doesn't eliminate the fact of the experiment using copper (not bronze)in Tesla Coils.So, the DNA type of violet light is there whether you like the site or hate it to death.
My mention about Jesus providing life is based upon the Gospels themselves. He died to give life according to the Bible. You can believe or reject, it's up to you. People who were bitten by snakes need to have faith and stare at the copper snake in order to....LIVE. The twisted snake whether in Sculapius or Assyrian trees were a symbol of life, medicine, regeneration and it can well be applied to laws in nature. These are archetypes.Genesis indicates cos a snake the average of life decreased, so we are talking about LIFE and DNA. In fact Genesis is a word meaning "origin" and the first chapters talk about a blessed "seed" and the cursed one, so we are talking about lineage and offspring which eventually lead to Christ. Then again we're talking about DNA or life. Shamans can perceive this and the fact you are not aware of this doesn't deny symbols.It would require a special theme debating on this.
Your argument about previous coming of people causing diseases is controversial.Cos you're suggesting something we don't know. Europeans were filthy but Egyptians, Hebrews or Phoenicians who probably came to America had other habits protecting their health. The use of water to "purify" is an example while Europeans took a bath once a year and was considered unhealthy.So there are anti-arguments for everything you post.
IP: 200.251.36.5
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 20:19           
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Even if you chew COCA leaves you produce **** because of the saliva. The exact scripture both rongorongo and that of Indo Valley are the ones of this site. Read the followings to inform yourself better. I can go like this forever, be my guest: www.netaxs.com/~trance/fisher.html
home.hiwaay.net/~jalison
all-ez.com/fresian-inka.htm

IP: 200.251.36.5
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 20:22           
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Ooops! It's:
all-ez.com/frisian-inka.htm

IP: 200.251.36.5
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 20:24           
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www.netaxs.com/~trance/fischer.html

IP: 200.251.36.5
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-29-2003 20:29           
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Everytime you find elephants or languages or pyramids, mummies, heliolatry,priests-kings,endogamy in certain places, the ortodox guardians of the faith use the same "scientific argument", dear readers, they shout "it's just a coincidence" beyond randomic odds. Keep them coming, I LOVE IT:
alf.zfn.uni-bremen.de/~ushanas

IP: 200.251.36.5
 
George Erikson
Member   posted 06-29-2003 23:43           
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Oscar,
Yeah!!!!!!
www.AtlantisInAmerica.com
IP: 198.81.26.168
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-30-2003 06:15           
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George, neither I could enter the site you quoted nor the Etrurian site posted by Erick.
IP: 200.251.38.191
 
oscar
Member   posted 06-30-2003 06:37           
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My believe regarding snake is based upon the text of Numbers I already mentioned. Care to read it in your own Bible, Erick. If you want to believe only in a document made by Plato, it's up to you. I have many reasons of believing in historicity of the Bible since many places and names only mentioned in that book were after discovered by archeology, other scientific facts already explained in the Bible have been scientificly demonstrated.If you wanna discuss something particular in specific topics about the Bible that would be interesting. It's not the case with Alantis yet.Even the fact you can't see 100% accuracy in Herodoto or Plato, you can trust them mostly and don't reject, why do you think I would have to stop using the Bible in my arguments? Just because you think Plato was more "historical" than Moses? So, now the guy who wants to make a case about Atlantis judges me of being a New Ager and use the Bible!!! My true colors are simple to verify: Don't reject anything, use knowledge of everything and common sense. Your true colors are: reject as absurd everything you fail to investigate deeper or have prejuidice before acknowledging and checking.I never critized your ideas as stupid, I said (and repeat)your stubburness regarding what you consider absurd is idiotic.
Something to add regarding Mohenjo Daro or rongorongo? Something to add regarding your fabulous knowledge about quechua and nahuatl or quiche which admitedly you say you don't know and don't care? And yet you wanna insist about the meaning of qoricollque? How come? How you dare if you just ignore and talk about Greek? Say humbly, be meak: I DON'T KNOW. If you knew it being a linguist or someone who care to investigate before considering something absurd, my attitude would be completely different. But if you continue to say something is absurd and assumes don't care to look for, I will insist: you remain dummy! I'm waiting for you reply regarding the sites I quoted (and the books), perhaps you are specialized in those languages as well and can discuss the linguists making such claims are all stupid as me, right? Yet I won't answer that soon this time, I wanna read all your arguments before having fun! Who knows, maybe you're gonna say after a while "of course I knew rongorongo had some characteristics similar to Indo Valley".Ha-ha-ha!
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 09:40:24 pm »

Riven
Member   posted 06-30-2003 11:48           
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Oscar,Erick; I think both you guys should read Plato's Alcibiades 1 and 2.
Mr Erickson; Do you have a post to describe your conclusions other than fill your bank account. So tell me if someone were to take ancient rocks and carve statues would they be able to tell that they were fakes?

One thing certain is that evidence from different cultures can be found all over the world,which was established through trade and voyages. This is also ascertained by scientists refering to teuctonic plate movements whereas some countries were closer together in ancient times.

So if the S.Americans think they were Atlantis,I really don't believe this,rather parts of the Atlantian culture were shared there,as well as other parts of the world immediately surrounding Atlantis. There is I believe too much reference of Atlanteans being of a Libyan people. As well Mr Erickson's tribe comes into the picture about 10 AD? So as the peacock proudly displays it's feather's so too do civilizations borrowing stories from each other to enhance their own and try to be the best and brightest of the peacocks.

IP: 142.161.181.201
 
atalante
Member   posted 06-30-2003 17:58           
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Riven,
I have done some research about your post above, in regard to the hebrew root words: nechosheth and har(=mountain). You suggested the possibility that this might be "mountain copper".
The biblical root word for copper (i.e. "nechosheth") is shared cognately between Hebrew and Arabic languages (but probably NOT shared with any other modern languages). This suggests that there should have been an extremely ancient source of "copper" which was shared by the Hebrews, Egyptians, and Arabs.

Deuteronomy 8:9 states that the Iraelites were to travel out of Egypt and go to a promised land "out of whose hills you can dig copper". This does, perhaps, sound like a reference to mountain copper.

The Israelites then left Egypt and followed the inland route, known as the kings highway, which lead to the Timnah copper mining region, and then led farther north to "Khirbit Hamra Ifdan", the largest factory for smelting copper in the ancient world (i.e. it had 70 rooms).

The copper manufacturing plant was destroyed by an earthquake around 2700 BC, when Egyptian pyramid building was at its peak. But archeologists reported in 2002 that the ancient copper factory has been excavated recently. Here is a link about that copper factory: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0620_020625_metalfactory.html

The Timna valley is semi-circular, like Atlantis, but with a radius of roughly 40 stades. On the north, west, and south, the Timnah valley is bordered by cliffs 900 feet high. And copper comes to the surface in those cliffs. In ancient times it was possible to pick up nodules that were 55% copper in the foothills of those cliffs. The nodules were in the form of malachite, which is a green-colored ore of copper. People have mined copper ore at Timnah since 5500 BC. Here is a link which explains the Timnah valley and its copper ore: www.us-israel.org/jsource/Archaeology/timna.html


Metalurgists believe that these soft, crumbly, nodules of malachite ore were the first copper ore to be used in Egypt. Initially, the ore was ground into powder, to create green eyeshadow (i.e. cosmetics). And then supplementarily, people discovered how to extract pure copper, by heating malachite in a charcoal fire. Here is a link which explains this eyeshadow issue, as part of a history of metalurgy: http://loki.stockton.edu/~epsteinc/metallur.htm


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-03-2003).]

IP: 198.81.26.168
 
Riven
Member   posted 06-30-2003 19:38           
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Good post Atalante. Here is a Factory of metallurgists,I wish we had their book of knowledge. I am not exactly sure but I think the Ancient egyptian word for copper was biA,by pronunciation as was DW for mountain. As your post link states,the Egyptians also used copper from this factory
as well as Israel.
http://hieroglyphs.net/000501/cgi/lookup_free.pl
Here is a Heiroglyph and Egyptian translator link.

IP: 142.161.179.134
 
Riven
Member   posted 07-01-2003 01:21           
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The Bologna Phosphorus
Back to luminous substances .

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Around 1602, Vincenzo Casciorola of Bologna, discovered a translucent mineral in fields near Monte Paterna, some 4 miles from Bologna, which when calcined acquired the property of glowing in the dark after exposure to sunlight. Casciorola originally called it the 'lapis solaris' as it appeared to store the light of the Sun. An account was later published by Fortunio Liceti Litheosphorus, sive de lapide Bononiensi lucem, Utino,1640.
This substance appears to be barium sulphide. It was made phosphorescent by being powdered very finely, calcined, then mixed with water or white of egg and fashioned into small tablets, which were again calcined at a high temperature in a furnace using bellows. It then was capable of phosphorescing after being exposed to sunlight. It was called the 'lapis illuminabilis' and attracted the interest of Athanasius Kircher.
There were various kinds of this stone, some glowed like the embers of a fire, others with the characteristic blue flame of burning sulphur.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/bologna.html

Although this may not be Orichalkos it gives us an idea of how minerals are worked.

IP: 142.161.178.71
 
Riven
Member   posted 07-02-2003 18:56           
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When critias stated that "Orichalcum was something more than a name and is now only a name" was he saying that it became extinct or that people disregarded it later?
If Atlantis was an island then it should have Volcanos. If orichalcum became extinct then it could have been a rare type of Volcanic rock. Obsidian does come in deep reds. They could have mixed it with copper? Maybe the Egyptians hearing it was red thought it to be copper?
IP: 142.161.181.207
 
Riven
Member   posted 07-02-2003 21:25           
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Oscar: Interesting post on the copper pyramid and the double helix. When you look at the Kings Chamber and wonder why the huge stones piled above it with chambers and the stone box below it as if it were some kind of ignition chamber. Maybe the shafts were exhaust ports? This double helix would be their information highway or their message of DNA? Could the Ancients have known about DNA? The twisted snake and the secret of copper is a good conjecture in reference to DNA. True copper isotopes are relevant in Fission producing engines for AntiGravity and superconductors. http://www.gctspace.com/technology/description.html
IP: 142.161.182.167
 
Akata
Member   posted 07-03-2003 05:17           
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riven orichalcum is a rare ore
not a name for vulcanic stone
azores haves a large deposit
of that ore,i now it
IP: 213.161.5.68
 
Perseus
Member   posted 07-03-2003 14:52           
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Riven,
I don't know if ancients knew about DNA ,but i know a story fro Odyssey,when Circe transforms Odysseus sailors to pigs (or other animals) it is God Hermes who transform them them back to men (not Apollo the God of Medicine)and Herme's sign are the twisted snakes.
IP: 213.16.201.110
 
atalante
Member   posted 07-04-2003 06:31           
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Native copper can occur in shapes which resemble twisted snakes. Perhaps the "snake" which Moses upheld (or lifted up) in the desert was a piece of native copper.
Here is a link with a picture of native copper which looks like a bunch of twisted snakes. You have to scroll down 3/4 of the way toward the bottom of this link to find the picture of "copper": http://is2.dal.ca/~dommelen/photosnozeo.html


IP: 198.81.26.168
 
Erick Wright
Member   posted 07-05-2003 13:21           
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Oscar,

quote:
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 the fact is the linguists don't have a consensus about language families in all cases, specially the ones I quoted. You admit yourself rongorongo has not been desiphered, how on Earth then we may believe the experts can tell us the "family". The ethnologists and linguist are still discussing the source and you want us to believe they already know the families!
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Truly, Oscar, you really do need to pick up a book and do a little reading about linguistics, in general. The Rongorongo script has not been deciphered, but that does not mean that linguists know nothing about it. For instance, they know that it was created on the Isla de Pascua (Rapanui Island) by the indigenous population, and that it was created late in the development of their civilization. The Rapanui dialect belongs to the Oceanic Group in the Austric Family of languages. It is the exact relationship of symbol/letter or group of symbols/word that remains, as of yet, undeciphered.

The same goes for the Indus Valley Script; it is known that the Indus language, as well as several others, was written with the Indus Valley Script. The Indus language is now believed to have been an early member of the Dravidian Family of languages. The Dravidian languages are well known and well studied, and four of the languages of which the Family is comprised are still spoken in southern India today - Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil, and Telugu. Again, it is the exact relationship of symbol/letter or group of symbols/word that has remained undeciphered.

The Basque language belongs to the Aquitanian/Basque family of languages, of which it is the only member.

Etruscan (Etrurian) is an extinct language. It is its own Language Family and has within itself three, distinct, dialects - Lemnian, Lydian, and Rhaetian.

The simple fact that two different languages might have one or two CHARACTERS in their scripts that appear similar does not mean that the SCRIPTS are identical.


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My transliteration of Mojenjo Daro with J is not wrong, I'm using J on purpose cos the name is not English and the same thing happens with Protestants using the name Jehovah while sefardits in Spain use Yahveh. So I have good reasons to use J rather than H in specific names.
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Uh, not to argue the petty particulars Oscar, but you used the spelling with H, rather than J. I was the one who used a J in the spelling when I corrected you.


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You don't have to be ashamed of not knowing Basque or Vasco, just gotta be informed before trying to argue!!!!
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I'm a little confused on this point, Oscar. Just what exactly do you think that I argued on this point? I merely pointed out that I had never heard of, nor could I find any reference to (not that I looked very hard), the word Vasco as pertains to the Basque language.


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My saying about **** is cos people usually think about modern **** and confuse this with coca leaves. The site specifically says **** came from Erythroxylon Coca.
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I know of no other plant from which **** can be derived. This whole stupid argument regarding coca/**** started with you saying, and I quote, "Is Dr. Hawass or Lehner or any other egyptologist examining THE CAUSES of the presence of nicotine and coca (not **** as you wrote)in the Egyptian mummies?" And yet I was correct when I wrote "****" for that is how it is referred to in every website, article, and book that discusses the topic. To be fair, however, you also are correct when you say that **** is derived from the plant Erythroxylon Coca (btw, something that is written in the website that I listed). So, let us both put this particular topic to rest by agreeing that traces of Tetrahydrocannabalis (THC), the chemical that is present in **** and hashish that gives them their hallucinogenic property, and that is derived from plants belonging to the Cannabus Genus, as well as from the plant Erythroxylon Coca, has been found in Egyptian mummies belonging to the Middle Dynastic Period. Agreed?


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Good thing after your mistake about Etruria in a site quoting flags and Napoleon (!)NOW you can say "of course I knew it" having a little time to do homework.Thanks of my response. You're welcome! Now you know better and found a better site, how convenient!
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Um, if you hadn't noticed quite yet, my responses as of lately have been coming only on weekends. This is because of the hectic schedule I have during the week, and also because of the fact that I have been building an addition to my mother and father's deck. Additionally, the person put in charge of the store expansion (conversion of external merchandise pick-up area into internal stockroom space) was "let go" due to corporate cutbacks. This has resulted in the "expansion" of my own responsibilities. As a result, I no longer have the time to devote to responding to your numerous and lengthy posts, as well as everyone else's posts, which have been neglected in favor of arguing your points. Unfortunately, this has resulted in unscientific theories - most of which are completely unrelated to the topic of oreichalcos - to creep in. I hate that I have to be the "watch dog" as someone put it. I would much rather spend my time discussing viable scientific theories, but I just don't have time enough to do it all.


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Snake was made of copper. The copper itself eventually could be used to make bronze. If I know some things or not I let the readers to judge.
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I don't know what type of Bible you are reading, but the King James version of the Bible says, quite explicitly, that the metal was BRASS.


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You are the one discussing Atlantis and acuse ME to be a New Ager?
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I am discussing the scientific and/or academic aspects of the story. I do not subscribe to, practice, nor endorse, the sort of wild derivative speculation that you yourself practice.


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The fact a determine site provides the information doesn't eliminate the fact of the experiment using copper (not bronze)in Tesla Coils.So, the DNA type of violet light is there whether you like the site or hate it to death.
My mention about Jesus providing life is based upon the Gospels themselves. He died to give life according to the Bible. You can believe or reject, it's up to you. People who were bitten by snakes need to have faith and stare at the copper snake in order to....LIVE. The twisted snake whether in Sculapius or Assyrian trees were a symbol of life, medicine, regeneration and it can well be applied to laws in nature. These are archetypes.Genesis indicates cos a snake the average of life decreased, so we are talking about LIFE and DNA. In fact Genesis is a word meaning "origin" and the first chapters talk about a blessed "seed" and the cursed one, so we are talking about lineage and offspring which eventually lead to Christ. Then again we're talking about DNA or life. Shamans can perceive this and the fact you are not aware of this doesn't deny symbols.It would require a special theme debating on this.
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Regarding all of this nonsense about DNA and the Israelites, the picture of the experiment conducted at the University of Wyoming merely shows a release of energy that has a double-helixal shape. The pyramid is made of copper - a conductive material - and focused through a crystal. It is most likely the internal structure of the crystal that allowed for the double-helix shape. The Bible, however, does not mention any pyramids, crystals, tesla coils, nor energy of any kind. It merely states that he made an effigy of a snake and mounted it on a post. Do you ever really read things, or do you just have trouble understanding the things that you read that are written in the English language?


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Your argument about previous coming of people causing diseases is controversial.Cos you're suggesting something we don't know. Europeans were filthy but Egyptians, Hebrews or Phoenicians who probably came to America had other habits protecting their health. The use of water to "purify" is an example while Europeans took a bath once a year and was considered unhealthy.So there are anti-arguments for everything you post.
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Perhaps you should spend a little time studying bacteriology, Old World diseases, and the sorts of diseases that decimated the native American populations, and then re-address this issue.


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The exact scripture both rongorongo and that of Indo Valley are the ones of this site. Read the followings to inform yourself better. I can go like this forever, be my guest: www.netaxs.com/~trance/fisher.html

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Oscar, as I have said before, if you actually read this site you'll see that what is said is that the only similarity between the two languages is that they are both undeciphered. What it states, exactly, is:


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Like the Indus Valley script of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa of approximately 2000 BC, or the Etruscan writing of central and northern Italy of the first millennium BC, rongorongo has also been, until very recently , one of the world's very few undeciphered writing systems.
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My true colors are simple to verify: Don't reject anything, use knowledge of everything and common sense.
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This is probably your biggest problem and the problem of a great number of people on this website. Specifically, that they (and you) don't reject anything as being irrelevant. The inability of many people to critically evaluate information allows for everything and anything to have relevance in their minds. This is just not so in the real world and especially in the scientific world. Most of the people that have developed their critical evaluative skills, through logic and reason are able to discern the information that has relevance to the Atlantis topic. A great many people in this forum, however, have not ever developed their critical evaluative skills. This is the reason that topics like pyramids, crystals, energy, DNA, etc., are brought to the table for dicussion.


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Your true colors are: reject as absurd everything you fail to investigate deeper or have prejuidice before acknowledging and checking.
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You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however erroneous it might be.


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Something to add regarding Mohenjo Daro or rongorongo?
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Already added it earlier in my post.


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Something to add regarding your fabulous knowledge about quechua and nahuatl or quiche which admitedly you say you don't know and don't care? And yet you wanna insist about the meaning of qoricollque? How come? How you dare if you just ignore and talk about Greek?
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Again, already added it earlier in my post.

You really just don't get it, do you? Unless a conclusive determination can be made regarding the presence of the Atlantis story in some other language, then the sole source of the Atlantis story is Plato's Timaeus & Critias. These two books were written by a Greek man in the Attic Greek dialect. The word oreichalcos is a Greek word. The English translation of that Greek, compound word is "mountain copper". Plato does state that the Atlantis story was brought back to Greece, from Egypt, by Solon. Therefore, if any other language were to be examined, it would have to be Egyptian, not Quechuan, Aymaran, or Nahuatl. It really is just that simple.

I have never argued the meaning of "qoricollque". What I have argued is the relevance of the word to the Atlantis story. Due to the fact that it has no relevance to the Atlantis story, I have dismissed it as exactly that - IRRELEVANT. Again, it is just that simple.

Respectfully,

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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Erick Wright
Member   posted 07-05-2003 13:39           
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Oscar,
Regarding the diseases that decimated the native American populations, you might want to read this.
http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/goodling.html

Respectfully,

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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Akata
Member   posted 07-06-2003 03:20           
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atlantien shmyds create the snakes
but not coper,more pure orcicaljum
100 & pure,or was a device to insert
the orcicaljum bead inside the snake
dont reember much
the son of the king of atlantis
Akarius

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Riven
Member   posted 07-07-2003 01:07           
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Orichalcum possibilities:
Astrophyllite; http://www.mindat.org/min-405.html
Eudyalite--for color and shine http://www.mindat.org/min-1420.html
Pyrochlore--color/shine http://www.mindat.org/min-3316.html
Zircon /hardness/shine/color http://www.mindat.org/min-4421.html
Chalcocite;form of copper http://www.mindat.org/min-962.html
Chalcopyrite http://www.mindat.org/min-955.html
Copper http://www.mindat.org/min-1209.html
Chalcotrichite; http://www.mindat.org/min-977.html
Cuprite; http://www.mindat.org/min-1172.html
Cuprite is a good candidate if you added more copper.

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atalante
Member   posted 07-11-2003 21:22           
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Riven,
I posted a nice picture of cuprite crystal here in the orichalc forum on 6/25/03. Cuprite normally forms in association with malachite. Here is a picture of NON-CRYSTALINE cuprite (in association with malachite): http://65.167.2.58/~wellerr/bzbmineral_photos.php?cat=rnum&item171

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Erick Wright
Member   posted 07-12-2003 14:05           
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Everyone,
Y'know, I just don't understand why so many people have such an aversion to accepting the fact that oreichalcos means simply "mountain copper"? Well, perhaps this will help some people to understand how that word/phrase came to be in the Atlantis story.

Names like "mountain copper" or "mountain gold" were actually quite common in ancient times. For instance, the descriptive phrases "gold of the mountain" and "gold of the water (1,000 deben)" were written on the walls in the temple at Medinet Habu that contains a group of five treasure-chambers. These descriptive phrases were used to differentiate gold from the mountain mine as distuinguished from gold of the stream in two of the seven sacks of gold that are listed in one register. There were a total of eight sacks listed, but the eighth sack contained Lapis lazuli. The accompanying inscription reads:


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Utterance of King Ramesses III, to his father, Amon-Re, king of gods: "Take thou gold and silver like sand of the shore, I have produced them for thee from the waters and the mountains, that I might present them to thee by the measure (an unknown measure [Ddmwt hr-t]), the regalia of thy majesty everyday. I bring to thee lapis lazuli, malachite, and every costly stone in chests [and] electrum. I have made for thee many sacred eye amulets of every splendid, costly stone."
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Gold is also listed by region (e.g. Kush, Edfu, Ombos, Coptos) as well as "native" and "fine".

The last type of gold that is listed is "gold of two times". I'm not really sure what exactly that means.

The Harris Papyrus lists gold (both of the mountain and water), fine gold, gold of two times, gold as inlay and in relief, white gold, gold in vessels/ornaments/scrap, silver, silver in vessels/ornaments/scrap, silver as inlay and in relief, silver in beaten work, crude silver, copper, beaten copper, copper plate, copper in vessels and scrap, raised copper (i.e. in relief), black copper, bronze, bronze in hammered work, bronze in beaten work (of a mixture of 6 parts), bronze in vessels and scraps, lead, tin, and iron.

I believe that these passages from the Mortuary Temple of Ramesses III, at Medinet Habu, serve to show that the ancient Egyptians were very well familiarized with the various types of metals and had names for differentiating various types of the same metal. Most importantly, the use of the word "mountain", by the ancient Egyptians, as a means of identifying a metal as having been mined from the mountains versus having been obtained from some other source, such as a stream, is extremely 'telling' and serves to corroborate what academic scholars, Georgeos, and myself (as well as some others) have been saying all along.

Respectfully,

Erick


------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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xfx
Member   posted 07-12-2003 17:06           
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There is no mystery, and never was.
As I said in another thread: Plato could mean that orichalcum( mountain copper ) was very popular and the most valuable thing apart from gold in Atlantis at the time of Atlantis but not anymore. ( in the time of Plato )
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000442-9.html <-


[This message has been edited by xfx (edited 07-12-2003).]

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Ulf Richter
Member   posted 07-15-2003 09:24           
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Erick, Atalante, Riven,
After a long pause I come back to the "orichalcum" discussion.
Yes, "mountain copper" is the correct translation, and I will give you my thoughts about its real meaning which I posted today in Smileys "Cooperatve Research" thread:

Plato´s remark that the city walls of the innermost circle "flashed with the red light of orichalcum" shows that orichalcum must contain copper, because copper is the only metal
which has a red colour and gives it also to its alloys. But copper and all known copper alloys exposed to the atmosphere will soon tarnish to an unattractive brown and black , later to a green colour.
Is there any metal or alloy, which retains its red or red golden colour also after tarnishing?
In a paper of Peter Northover in "Old World Archaeometallurgy" 1989 is written, that he studied dagger blades from the first half of the second millenium BC, found in Palestine, which were made from copper containing 3 - 6 % arsenic. By a yet unknown process the surfaces of these artifacts were enriched with arsenic and consisted of a layer of the intermetallic compound Cu3As. This normally has a silver appearance that will tarnish to an attractive red golden colour.
Northover believed that these weapons were prestige production because of their rarity. Only very few similar artifacts were found in other cultures of the early bronze age, e.g. near Quimperle, France. The process of producing the special arsenic-rich surface is not known and has not yet been reproduced.

This could be a possible explanation for Plato´s "orichalcum" :
1. Copper with arsenic content could be "dug out of the earth", because most copper ores naturally contain a certain amount of arsenic. During the normal melting processes it is possible to retain "arsenic copper" or "Arsenic Bronze", which is as hard as tin bronze and can be used for tools and weapons. Most of the copper artifacts from the so called "Copper Age" (ca.4500 - 2000 BC), which was the oldest metal using period prior to the "Bronze Age", are not made from pure copper, but from arsenic copper, which has the same appearance as copper.
2. The special process to produce an arsenic rich surface was necessary to make metal objects, which did not loose their attractive shining surface appearance after a short time, but due to the coloured tarnish retained their golden appearance. This could be the reason that these objects "were more precious in those days than anything except gold". They had the colour of gold, better mechanical properties than gold, and were very rare due to the complicated process of the production of this special tarnish.
3. The know-how to produce these valuable objects has since been forgotten - in our times as well as in Plato´s times, because after the general introduction of tin bronze instead of arsenic bronze during the Bronze Age all the old techniques must have got lost. So Plato could write, that orichalcum "is now only a name and was then something more than a name."

The Wndrer wrote in his post of 6-24-2003, that gold coloured, super hard copper axes and knives were found in South America and Yucatan. According to Heather Lechtman, professor from the Mass.Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass., the transition from the use of arsenic bronze to tin bronze occured about 1000 AD, that means 3000 years later than in Europe and Asia. It is possible that the South Americans had up to this time the knowledge to produce the golden surfaces on arsenic bronze (not copper (!)) tools.

Ulf




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xfx
Member   posted 07-15-2003 10:19           
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Well, according to Theopomps History Orichalcum is a mix of zinc and copper. In other words brass. Brass Greaves --> http://www.amfence.com/gallery/11.jpg
Below -> brass using an old Egyptian technique. http://www.khan-al-khalil.com/brass/image/brass.gif

In Latin Orichalcum is the the yellow copper ore you can make brass out of. It can also mean the finished brass itself which explains why you could both mine it directly and cover walls with orichalcum. It never means bronze.


[This message has been edited by xfx (edited 07-15-2003).]

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atalante
Member   posted 07-15-2003 17:59           
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Eric,
The terms "mountain copper" and "washed copper" were also used outside Egypt. You cited from the 12th century BC Harris Papyris.
But I have also found this pair of terms being used in 18th century BC Mari.

"The usual copper:silver [price] ratio at Mari was 180:1 for unrefined, "mountain" copper, with refined (literally "washed") copper being valued at 150:1."

Here is a link which explains this. The link is rather large. So scroll half-way down the link, and look in the "blue" text, to locate the passage which I cited. http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/trade1.htm


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-15-2003).]

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Miroslav
Member   posted 07-16-2003 04:55           
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Zinc imparts a yellow color to copper alloys, as it does in brasses.
Copper-manganese alloys, retain more of copper's red color.
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xfx
Member   posted 07-16-2003 05:13           
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Well I have red brass stuff at home. No manganese.
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Miroslav
Member   posted 07-16-2003 07:57           
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Brasses are copper alloys which contain zinc as the principal alloying element with or without other alloying elements. Are you sure that your red brass does not contain any other metal beside zinc and copper? Or maybe it contains only small amount (less than 15%) of zinc.
[This message has been edited by Miroslav (edited 07-16-2003).]

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xfx
Member   posted 07-16-2003 09:04           
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Miroslav. No. What I meant was that it is red brass. It probably contains small amounts of other stuff aswell.
Red brass contains more copper than zinc which makes it red. But as most copper alloys it also contains small amounts of other stuff.

[This message has been edited by xfx (edited 07-16-2003).]

 
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 09:41:32 pm »

Riven
Member   posted 07-19-2003 19:04           
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Eric's quote from the inscription:
malachite, and every costly stone in chests [and] electrum

So we notice that electrum was used back then which I stated in an earlier post as a possible additive with cinnabar.

I presume this Orichalcum was a lost recipe,also as per ULF's post:

"The process of producing the special arsenic-rich surface is not known and has not yet been reproduced."

Fine,we know it's mountain copper,and that their are different types of copper. What we need is the recipe. We know that most common minerals end with ITE suffix and their are all kinds of reddish minerals in that category.

Question; was Orichalcum not found anymore or did they just lose regard for it?

If it isn't found then looking for extremely
rare minerals might help. Deep red Obsidian?

Maybe twice Gold was re-melted Gold.


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Akata
Member   posted 07-22-2003 10:01           
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xfx orciclalicjum is not mountain copper
but more a very rare ore found only
at islands of azores,today,if i am
corect the azores istland a once part
the atlantien contient,but doday only
islands,if i remember whell the ore is red
in color,only true process of water wapor
head true lava,remeves theore from stone
part,and makes that shines like sun state of the fissed orclicaljum ore
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atalante
Member   posted 07-27-2003 20:10           
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It is well known that copper can be "improved" by a process called annealing (i.e. heat treating).
Since 2 types of copper were marketed in ancient times, and we have difficulty interpreting their names in dead languages, then I suggest that the fancier grade of copper was "annealed" copper.


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rednekcol
New Member   posted 08-03-2003 14:21           
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I recently found this forum while looking for information on the subject of orichalcum. I do not wish to repeat any of the information that has been presented previously. I wish only to add a new thought.
As a scientist, I went to look for alloys that may fit the description given by Plato. It seemed convincing that it was some form of copper, possibly an alloy. It is also convincing that the Romans, who tried to imitate and incorporate anything they found worthwhile in any civilization, would name a copper alloy used for their coinage as oricalcum. I would seem that it was also their belief that it was a copper alloy. I would not go so far as to suggest that the alloy employed by the Romans could be the same metal used by the dwellers at Atlantis. But it seems clear, especially following the reasoning in this thread that it must be copper.

If it is therefore copper, what would make it red and yellow. What would make it as the color of fire, as it is described?

I can think of only one reasonable answer to this question. Copper must be alloyed to gain these qualities. Could it be an alloy with Mercury? When alloyed with about 2% mercury, I have found that a very red metal could be created. It is also very durable and does not corrode easily.

I am working currently with a friend to find if an alloy with mercury could possibly be formed to meet the properties of the described orichalcum.

Just a thought...

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Riven
Member   posted 08-03-2003 18:10           
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Rednekcol; Welcome to Atlantis Rising.
As you stated this copper must be an alloy.

This is exactly my sentiments. That this orichalcum was a "LOST RECIPE". I also mentioned a combination of Electrum with cinnabar or a red quartzite,or rare deep red obsidian which was a prized commodity in ancient times for it's hardness.
Somewhere in ancient books of Alchemy we might find such a formula derived from their "VINEGAR" to break it down. The cinnabar or red mineral would give it this breath of fire,so to speak,while the Electrum would give it brilliance. Electrum was even used in Ancient Egypt.

What confuses me somewhat is Critias's statement that it was once more than a name and now only a name,basically.
In question of, did they disregard it and lose value for it or was it not found anymore?
The other factor to consider would be the use of enamels or resins for protection.

If you have any suggestions for a tribe (Culture)dealing with Atlantis feel free to post in Tribes of Atlantis. Thanks for your opinions.

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Erick Wright
Member   posted 08-04-2003 19:54           
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Atalante,
First off, thank you for the corroboration, and better yet, from an earlier time period.

Second, just an observation. The site you quoted mentioned that the Akkadian "le_u", quite literally, meant "washed". Now of course, when you "wash" something you make it clean or pure. I don't know of any way to make copper clean or pure other than by separating it from its ore. Separating copper from its ore requires melting it and skimming off the "slag". When you look at the lexical entries that the site provided you can quite clearly see that "le" meant "to get clear (as water when left undisturbed)". I would therefore submit that when they say that it was "washed copper" versus "mountain copper" that what they were saying was "copper that had been made clear (i.e. smelted to remove impurities)" versus "raw copper ore that had been mined from the mountains". When you examine the value of the two types of copper listed (i.e. "mountain" vs. "washed") what you find is that the value of "washed" copper was greater than that of "mountain" copper (e.g. 150 parts of "washed copper" versus 180 parts of "mountain copper").


quote:
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(Akkadian: le_'u) 3833.To melt: li_ melt; lau absorption, devotion (H.); laya absorption (Skt.)(CDIAL 10962). ri_ melt, flow (Skt.); ri_yate_ melts, flows (RV.); ri_n.a melted (Skt.); riik to leak (of contents), drip; rieik to leak (of vessels), let drip (Kho.); rijan.u to water, to irrigate; to melt (S.); ri_n.a leaked, dripped (Pkt.); runna_ pret. of ren.ava_ (Si.)(CDIAL 10753). cf. re_n.i mud (Pkt.); ren.i_ ingot (L.)(CDIAL 10639). aliyuka to melt, dissolve (as salt, heart); alika, aliyikka to melt; aliccal, alivu melting, compassion; ali-ppun.n.u foul ulcer (Ma.); ali- (aliv-, alij-) to dissolve; (alip-, alic-) to dissolve (Kod..); aliyuni to dissolve, decay; eliyuni, e_luni to melt (as any soft substance, butter, lead etc.); elipuni, elpuni, e_la_vuni id. (Tu.)(DEDR 250). Image: to be delivered of a child: allna_ to become clear (of liquids left undisturbed)(Kur.); le to get clear (as water when left undisturbed)(Malt.); alga tidy, clear; alga a_va to be tidy, clear, be delivered of a child (Kui)(DEDR 261). Fluids: al.akam water (Ta.); al.aka, al.l.aka neither thick nor thin, as applied to fluids (Ka.); anuku semiliquid, semifluid (Te.)(DEDR 298). cf. al.acu to agitate (liquid)(Ka.)(DEDR 294).
5516.Image: flow, current: raya the stream of a river, current; speed, velocity (Ka.Skt.)(Ka.lex.) re_tas a flow, current (Vedic); ri_ti moving, flowing; motion, course; a stream, river (Skt.)(Skt.lex.) raya stream, current (MBh.); current, speed (Pali.Pkt.); rava speed (Pali); ra sediment left by river after inundation (S.); rau small stream from the mountains, course or flow of river (P.); current, stream, torrent, line (H.); rai long narrow channel made for flow of water from higher level (Or.)(CDIAL 10638). cf. re_n.i mud (Pkt.); ren.i_ ingot (L.); ingot of gold or silver (P.); ren. cement for metallic objects (G.); ravan.aka a filter (BHSkt.)(CDIAL 10639). ri_n. name of a deserted channel of the river Jhelam (L.)(CDIAL 10750). re_ve the Narmada_ river (Ka.lex.) ri_ti stream (RV.); ri_i path, fashion (Pkt.); ria shallow narrow channel for catching fish in dry season (Or.); ri_ method, manner (G.)(CDIAL 10751). reju, rejo irrigation, first watering before sowing (S.)(CDIAL 10820). ri_ti dropping, flowing; a course; ri_n.a dropping, trickling, oozing, distilling, flowing (Ka.lex.)
http://hindunet.org/saraswati/Indian%20Lexicon/ore.htm[/quote]

Respectfully,
Erick


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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


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Riven
Member   posted 08-08-2003 06:01           
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Occurrences of Chalcopyrite
Geological Setting: It is the most abundant copper-bearing mineral and is widespread. It is a primary mineral in hydrothermal veins , desseminations, and massive replacements; the principal copper mineral of porphyry-copper deposits.
Industrial Uses: It is the principal ore of copper.
Lustre: Metallic
Diapheny: Opaque
Colour: Brass yellow, often with an iridescent tarnish.
Hardness (Mohs') 3½ - 4
http://www.mindat.org/min-955.html


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atalante
Member   posted 08-08-2003 13:49           
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Eric,
re:washed copper
You offered a very perceptive suggestion about an etymology for "washed copper". (In your link, the acronym DEDR stands for a Dravidian Etymological Dictionary.)

I may be a bit fuzzy about how to interpret the link you gave. But that link seems to be saying that the most common connotation for Akkadian "le" would be the concept of "to melt" and therefore the link gives Sanscrit "li" as a first option for translating. And moreover, if a specialized image involving "giving birth" is involved, it could point to a Dravidian "le" term meaning "to become clear (by dropping out of water", in other words "to precipitate" copper out of solution.

When I ran a google search, several
English-language variations on that theme turned up, e.g. a)gold washed copper, b)silver washed copper, and c)tin washed copper.

I think "smelting" copper involves "reducing" the internal copper oxides by roasting them in a "charcoal" fire.
And if so, then it would seem to be a mixed metaphor to describe smelting (in fire) by a connotation of washing (in liquid).

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Riven
Member   posted 10-14-2003 21:48           
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Riven
Member   posted 10-14-2003 21:50           
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Niuserre, the 6th Ruler of the 5th Dynasty
We know he was active in the Sinai, though an inscription found there of him smiting his enemies may be largely symbolic. He may have also participated in military campaigns against Libyans. He probably had copper and turquoise mined at Magharah in the Sinai, as did other kings of this period. There is also evidence that he probably traded with Punt for malachite, myrrh, and electrum (a gold and silver alloy), as did Sahure before him.
It wouldn't surprise me if malachite and electrum made Orichalcum
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/niuserre.htm


[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 10-14-2003).]

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Akata
Member   posted 10-15-2003 08:15           
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i still belive that orichalcum is not copper
at all,more very rare ore 1 100 % in whole
galaxy
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2007, 09:43:23 pm »

Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-15-2003 19:25           
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Consider, as well as what Plato says, what he doesn't say, or talks around. What could he mean, orichalcum was "once more than a name," but is now only a name? Why does he phrase it like this? He means it was used magically in Atlantis, but its secrets were now lost, at least to all those who were not initiated into certain Mysteries. Here is an interesting site with a clear picture of orichalcum --
www.geocities.com/ancient0history/orichalcum.html
This site describes orichalcum as "known to mages... the only known substance able to store raw magical energy."

It was really magic that was misused that took Atlantis down. Plato clearly and deliberately is not saying what he knows about orichalcum.

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Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-15-2003 19:29           
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Why do so many worthy contributors to this forum always want to take the magic out of Atlantis?
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Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-15-2003 20:26           
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The picture of the mineral/metal orichalcum:
enter -- orichalcum khoras --
on google. For some reason, the exact site address doesn't go to the page.

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Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-15-2003 20:53           
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Sorry, I must be getting tired; will have to break for a while -- let me start over. The sites I quoted are not so good (unless certain facts are hidden there), but what is valid is that what Plato refers to as Atlantean orichalcum had magical properties. One valid site for alchemy is Adam McLean, and there is only one mention of orichalcum there, but substantiates the magical/alchemical properties of this mineral/metal. A scientist could have all the properties of this metal and still be unable to use it as it was used in Atlantis. The Atlanteans had power over the life forces; forbidden by Plato's time.

IP: 67.27.38.107
 
Riven
Member   posted 10-15-2003 22:27           
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Martha;
This is from an earlier post in this thread.

Riven
Member posted 06-18-2003 12:03
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Interesting to note that in the book The Golden Calf,which the world adores and desires. London 1670. That Elias the Artist said that he was a melter of orichalcum. Another clue which suggests that orichalcum was a natural metal. Like Akata states which is an ancient art of alchemy. Maybe they mixed it with electrum to give it brilliance? http://www.levity.com/alchemy/helvet.html
IP: 142.161.179.25

This was from Adam Macleans website. I agree that there must be an alchemical magic to this Orichalcum process.

By the way,nice artwork!! I am also an artist as a hobby only. I've drawn numerous portraits for friends and family. My favourite is Fantasy pictures. I love the old masters as well like Da Vinci and Rubens.

IP: 142.161.176.58
 
Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-15-2003 23:07           
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Good for you and Akata!... Orichalcum, then, is both natural and has great alchemical potential.
From Berlitz:

"The laws of Atlantis were inscribed on a pillar of the mysterious metal orichalcum:

Plato: 'Now on the column, besides the law, there was inscribed an oath invoking mighty curses on the disobedient....'" The "column" suggests a living force (like Joachim and Boaz). What were the Laws of Atlantis? Merely civil as we have today, or laws against the misuse of the natural forces, or black magic? Perhaps the power of orichalcum is actually connected to the ultimate destruction of Atlantis. Perhaps this was the mysterious "crystal" (mineral) of Atlantis.

The earlier Lemurian epoch, as long in time (or before time!) as the Atlantean, was destroyed by fire, a "conflagration." Atlantis by ... "a deluge of water" with which the gods purge the Earth. Seems to me if there had been an asteroid, this would surely have been remembered and noted by the Egyptians, as something like a mighty fire from the sky.

I regret missing it, if much of this has already been discussed.

Amazing how the search for a picture for orichalcum took me into these fantasy sites, which first struck me as absolutely real. I think because there's a real truth in the magic of the "wizard's stone," orichalcum, which nevertheless is from a natural source. But we can only find that truth embedded in fantasy.

Do you have any of your art on-line?

IP: 67.27.37.31
 
Riven
Member   posted 10-16-2003 12:09           
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Martha;
No I don't have any artwork online.Just a few pictures I managed to save. When I have time,I could scan them and email them to your website. I don't draw nearly as much as I should. Thanks for your interest though!

IP: 142.161.176.58
 
Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-16-2003 12:42           
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Riven,
Yes, whenever you have time, that would be great. My art is not a hobby, but it's definitely not .com (commercial).

Alchemy... perhaps it is a combination of substances outside of one's self - metals melted down, etc. - and the control of the spiritual (etheric) body. Not purely outer or inner but a combination of both. So it wouldn't be enough to have orichalcum; it's the effect you would have upon it spiritually (magically), the control you would have over it.

IP: 67.27.38.207
 
Mork
New Member   posted 10-19-2003 15:23           
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Martha, you do know that the site (ancienthistory) is about a roleplaying game?
IP: 212.54.73.58
 
Akata
Member   posted 10-19-2003 16:25           
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i dont belive it that oricjalcum as crstal
more a very rare ore extreme rare,as i now
azores where ore in natural state is found
i mean non-refinate orichalcum ore
i think i now the color of the rocks
that have inside this ore,they are normaly
colored with normal colors,the mater of
color of the rock is always the same is
red in color
------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantien Race---


IP: 213.161.5.68
 
atalante
Member   posted 10-21-2003 09:01           
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The close similarity between Basque and Dravidian languages can help to identify oreichalc (="mountain metal" in Greek).
"Mountain metal" is a Dravidian word; and the Basques seem be a western extension of some ancient Dravidian peoples, who were looking for metal ores in Iberia.

The mountain people of northern India may have discovered "Mountain Metal" (oreichalc); and then the Dravidians of southern India may have exported it to Sumeria around 3000 BC.

This occurred to me while I was reading a lexicon of Indian metalurgy. Entry #6776.

The word which means
"mountain-containing-copper-ore" is listed as:
"Pittal-aimalai" in entry number 6776 of the following link: http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/Indian%20Lexicon/ore.htm

This provides some insight into Plato's mysterious "mountain metal" (oreichalc): since PITAL-AI means "brass", and nearly all compound words derived from "pital" also refer to something brazen (but if the compound word is an abstract word, then it refers to impure intentions or to corrupting actions).

Classical Greek language did not have separate words for brass and bronze. But Indian languages apparently do distinguish between those two metals, as does English.

So perhaps "himalaya brass" (pittal-aimalai)is what "is now only a name [oreichalc], but was once more than a name" according to the metal workers of Athens in Plato's time.

And the Indo-Aryans may have migrated from Iran to northern India around 2500 BC after learning, from Sumeria, where such "himalaya-brass" (pittal-aimalai, oreichalc) could be obtained.


IP: 198.81.26.13
 
MNoble
Member   posted 10-22-2003 01:42           
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I only read the first page and skipped through the sixth, so this might have been said before :p
I'm not one of you guys who goes around looking for specific sources, but i was thinking, When Plato wrote the story, who in his time was going to read it? The audience he intended to read it must have had a knowledge of what Orichalcum was, other wise it would have made no sense to them.

Also, plato got his story from Solon who got his story of Atlantis from the egyptians right? If thats right, then the only way Plato would have known about Orichalcum would be from the egyptians. So wouldn't you need to look back to the egyptians to see what the metal was?

Also, i got the impression from a few of the first posts that Orichalcum was only mined/availiable to the atlantiens, if this is correct, then none of the metals that were mined back then could be considered Orichalcum, at least the ones which were mined in large amounts anyway.

IP: 203.51.35.151
 
Ishtar
Member   posted 10-22-2003 08:17           
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WEll , I forgot most of what has been writen on this topic , but I did find this.
thanks to MNoble ..


orichalcum - A yellow bronze, an alloy of copper and zinc, resembling gold when new. Its name comes from two Greek words: oros meaning mountain, and chalkos, brass. The Romans made two coins made of orichalcum: the sestertius and the dupondius. Also see numismatics.

sestertius and the dupondius

Sestertius
The orichalcum sestertius (plural: sestertii) was the largest bronze denomination in the early Roman Empire, and it continued, growing only gradually smaller until the reign of Postumus (usurper in the breakaway Gallic Empire, 259-258 AD) who minted the last sestertius. Because of their larger flan, the sestertii, particularly of the earlier empire, had the potential for exquisite reverses which many moneyers, particualrly under the Adoptive and Antonine dynasties, used to portray their finest works.
http://www.romanorum.com.au/Info/Help/denoms.asp For a picture of this coin........
http://www.romanorum.com.au/Info/Help/denoms.asp


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Martha Keltz
Member   posted 10-23-2003 07:36           
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Mork, yes, I know my searches took me into several game or fantasy sites and I got caught up in these briefly. As I noted above, it is not just the elements or components of orichalcum, but there was a magical use as well. The fantasy sites at least have the magic. Alchemy does not reveal the ingredients or magical use of orichalcum.
("Lucifer," fantasy, and "Ahriman," scientific materialism.)


IP: 67.27.37.15
 
Trond Dyre Bobron
New Member   posted 10-25-2003 01:56           
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Erick,
If this could help you:
Chalchum is usually best interpreted as copper, and red it is.
Ori- or auri- can be mistaken for orei(mountain) - especially since metals are taken out of mountain or their sediments.
If Or-/aur- derives from 'gold', it supports the idea that it is an alloy more precious than the well-known bronze, and also the less known - but still not that precious - metal called brass.
In the Sahara region are found jewelry of an alloy consisting of ca.85%copper, ca. 15% silver, and a % or so of gold. They are dated to the time in question, late BA.
Barbars/berbers are still renommee for their metalkworks, and they still have their Canaani traditional ability to convince their customers of the quality of their material and craft.
Erick, let me know when you are going to Morocco again, I would gladly help you find Atlantis.
-That is; If you need help...

Will try to read the threads as soon as I can, this is truly interesting...

Glad to have found this Forum!

------------------
Kindly,
Trond

IP: 205.188.208.39
 
Akata
Member   posted 10-25-2003 11:47           
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Trond Dyre Bobron
copper is not orichalcum
but more very rare ore
not even copper
IP: 213.161.5.68
 
Akata
Member   posted 11-04-2003 21:34           
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one think more,orichalcum is not copper
as i sayed,the rocks is not red that
have the one inside,but more the ore
has a redish color,sure that atlantiens
uses copper also,the magical protepic
come from the ore inself,can give masive
power output and bring think to live
like a robot that is powered my orichalcum
bed,are in form of little round think
that can be inserted in the maschines
to bring to live,most of atlantien
robots haved a little hole in mouth
that wen you inserted the bed
the robot came to live,control
my the gears,and once agian
if you take out the bed,the
maschines stopes again,like
isntant power swich,but more
work like a bateri,i hope
shaded some light on the mistery
of orichalcum
hmm maybe the great crstal
given my nolege that i forgoten
maybe,hmm i think have
direct acess to the cystal
netork hmm,!the fire crstals
are not only power alone
they can safe information
like a computer but more eficent
maybe,maybe not for that
part i am not sure
theck out my newest
posting about
atlantien cystal network

IP: 213.161.5.68
 
MNoble
Member   posted 11-05-2003 12:20           
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Well, i reference to your first paragraph, have you ever played the game,
'Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis'?

and thats all i have to say

IP: 203.51.29.203
 
Akata
Member   posted 11-05-2003 02:34           
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Mnoble i am a atlsntien in my soul
remeber think from lover levels
of mind,returned from spirit realm
my human soul long ago died
but my atlantien one survived
i haved 2 souls in the past
the atlantien one was sleeping
inside the lover levels of mind
when my human self died,my atlan
side sucked up my memoris that
not forget what i was before
a play a role of human
but inside i am 100% Atlantien
Soul
IP: 213.161.5.68
 
MNoble
Member   posted 11-06-2003 17:55           
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Man, go see a doctor or something, seriously.
IP: 203.51.28.83
 
docyabut
Member   posted 11-06-2003 18:30           
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Akata you have got to stop posting on any string.Its makes the whole discussions of atlantis out of line. If you really want anyone to find your atlantis, you have to sit back and relax. Don`t worry, if we find it we will crown you prince.
IP: 205.188.208.39
 
Akata
Member   posted 11-07-2003 01:01           
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doctor heh mnoble,i dont nead it
my mind is clear in balance
soul also in balance with nature
i am not crazy,i only revalving
my own past to the human race
IP: 213.161.5.68
 
MNoble
Member   posted 11-07-2003 02:49           
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No, you're probably not crazy, but i think you're abit desperate for attention or you need to fell like you belong somewhere.
What exactly made you think that you're, what was it, the only surviving soul of atlantis who's returned to some person's body and then proceded to take over from this persons present soul?

You have direct access to the atlantien crystal network? Really? Where is it?

And like i said before, what you posted earlier is exactly the way that the game 'Indian Jones and the Fate of Atlantis' plays out.

I think you've just read to many things on atlantis and have developed this need for belonging or purpose that you put it in your mind that you're from atlantis, and whats more, you were a prince.

So, tell us all, where is atlantis located? What is its size? is it the same dimensions mentioned by Plato? What was the population size of atlantis? How many colonies did atlantis have and where exactly are they located today? Was atlantis an advanced civilisation such as our own, or was it merly just a huge bronze age civilisation? Surely a prince of atlantis who has returned from the spirit realm can tell us all of this, i mean, you already told us how the Orichalcum works, and that it, just by coincidence, works exactly like an early 90's game.

So, once again, answer the questions, and tell us exactly what lead you to believe that you are from atlantis.

Oh, and about your posts, do you press enter like every 5 words? And obviously, you're not from an english speaking country, but just curious whoch country are you from?

IP: 203.51.28.83
 
Akata
Member   posted 11-07-2003 04:24           
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Mnoble the trace is long gone of any evidence of atlantis,the crstal network
covers whole earth,how atlantien civ was
advanced more that human civ,many thinks
were forgoten,atlantis city is lost forever
but is a bad state of walling apart only
5 % of 100% is intact,there were 3 atlantien
citis that were the capital of atlantien civ
but that was in diferent time periods
thew first is totaly destroyed only the
damage fire crstals remian,bot is not good
to explore the site of first one,that
crstal seperate the atoms in gens,this
means bad think,is forbiden to get near
the area nows as bermuda trigle is the
first site of atlantis,the second was
where diaz found it but,almost todaly
destroyed my the masive dister that coused
half of life species to die over 95%
the rest 5 are small groups of atlantiens
and rama empire,we fighed to survivel
a giant comet fallen to in the area of
today nows as the piramids complex,on that
site atlantien survivor builed the under ground maze of rooms and coridors,and
hidden in side the nolage of atlantis,later
the egiptiens build a that site the piramids
one more clue the entraces vere seled off
only one i now about the sphinx haves a
secret door to the chambers,that is in
the center of her lions body,i mean
were her paws are and betwven the paws lies
the door,last now atlantis was in azores
once this a buitiful island,but in the
time of centuries that surival turned
in to a world war,almost killed al the
atlantiens and rama empire,but not all
atlantiens,they create hidden colonys
around the world ,underground,many
human today are direct discentence of
that group of surivors,if a calcolate
the time difenrical i think,that half
of the human race have half human gens
and atlantien,and that who have a get
a baby is a small change that newborn
will be 100% atlantien in gens,so
50 % of human have atlantien ensters
but they dont now it of the whole human
race
------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantien Race---


IP: 213.161.5.68
 
MNoble
Member   posted 11-08-2003 03:31           
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Well, very interesting, but again, what exactly makes you think this is true? And don't just say you're an atlantien spirit, what happened to actually make you think this?
Oh, and why don't you go on an expedition to eygpt and show the world the location of the entrance.
lmfao.

IP: 203.51.25.43
 
Akata
Member   posted 11-10-2003 15:49           
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GUITLY FOR 250 I YEARS!!!
GONE TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND BEYOND THAT LEVEL 12
DIMENSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
IP: 213.161.5.68
 
Akata
Member   posted 11-13-2003 12:41           
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MA... IS GONE FORVER!!
MAY ATLANTIS RISE POSEIDON MASTER OF ATLANTIS!
DONE
THX CRONOS

IP: 213.161.5.68
 
MNoble
Member   posted 11-13-2003 12:53           
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honestly man, are you doing drugs or something?
IP: 203.51.32.172
 
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nikas
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2007, 06:41:54 am »

Quote
Orichalcum?
 

What are you talking about, that's a metal used in greece today.......

plato wrote: ορειΧαλκόu/ορειΧαλκό = oreihalkou = it's fine-bronze Roll Eyes ahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

Χαλκό = bronze

check these website selling the metal in greece.....piplines for plumbing......

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%A7%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BA%CF%8C&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%A7%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BA%CF%8C

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Titiea
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2007, 02:15:22 pm »

Jacques Hebert in his book "Atlantis rediscovered" has proposed that orichalkos could be oxidated iron...

For Egyptians "herishet" was a semi-precious stone we name chalcedoine which colour is red-orange. Because of the colour of oxidated iron, the egyptian translater of Solon has tought that it was chalcedoine, he said "herischet" that the Greek wrote orichalkos.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2007, 02:20:52 pm by Titiea » Report Spam   Logged

In archeology, ancient traditions must be considered, unless new findings will prove the contrary.
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