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Orichalcum - brass or arsenic bronze ?

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Author Topic: Orichalcum - brass or arsenic bronze ?  (Read 2882 times)
Tina Walter
Superhero Member
Posts: 3619

« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2007, 09:02:23 pm »


Member # 1766

I found your reply most interesting and have a few questions for you. Have you read paper 79 yet?

and are you able yet to distinguish the various terminology urantia uses for these basic 9 races particularly the nodites and andites..... please use if need be as reference help, the five pages beginning at....

and is it possible to put together a coherent picture that can be intergrated with the information you supplied in your post regarding the superior metalworking capabilities of the various groups you referred to and perhaps others of that time period in that area.
Paper 67 might add additional information which could explain much in this regard and also answer many questions in this and other areas that we have all been discussing, particularly sections 4 and 5

and in relation to all of this the location of the "land of Nod" shown on one of the maps at the square circles link. Your apparent mastery of the area and groups involved as well as their history I'm sure will provide a depth and dimension I have not been able to clearly make sense of yet. and I'm inclined to believe it's there for the right eyes.

You've probably already surmised that urantia uses the basic genetic structure rather than residential status probably since it is a more accurate designation and especially during those far away times populations were constantly changing and being absorbed; completely decimated; or carried off and transplanted due to constant warfare; Frequently numerous times during a countries history as well as territorial borders undergoing constant shifting.

I also noticed that Dalamatia sank overnight in a tidal wave whereas Eden took more than a hundred years to completely submerge. I believe the stories might possibly have been mixed together since the Nodites occupied Eden-1 for a considerable time after it was vacated by the Adamites.


Member # 1452

The Urantia material was sent to earth at a specific time, to counteract the malarchy which Hitler was promoting in regard to a master race.
If you know Arabic word roots, you can recognize that the name Dalmatia has been derived from an Arabic root word: talmatha, which means "to have someone for a pupil, apprentice, or student". So Urantia adopted this root concept into their name for ancient Sumerian civiliztion.

Melchizedek is a reference to Ahura Mazda of the Zoroastrians. And Satan is a reference to the Yezidi people.

In that 1930's era, it had become obvious that potential behavioral problems can result from identifying any specific geographical region with a ancient master race. Therefore the Urantia revelator(s) decided that it was wize to diguise the true location of ancient "Asia", which was the location where human civization began.

It was purely for propaganda purposes that the celestials have named an underwater region, offshore from Cyprus, as the original homeland of the Master Race (Andites).


Member # 1766

My friend,
you are joking of course.
That wasn't exactly the line of thought I expected you to respond with.

Rather than being derived from arabic, it would naturally be just the opposite with the arabic root being derived from it if that idea is indeed true.
Dalamatia I believe was named in honor of Daligastia, the associate of Caligastia.
Melchizedek you of course know from the old testament as "being without father or mother" and He who brought forth bread and wine and a priest of the most highs and perhaps one of the most interesting beings to ever appear on earth. Every major religion on earth began from his teachings.
Your first insight though I believe to be very close to the truth and in regards to that, an interesting purported message aside from the revelation itself was received around 1945 I believe. It reads like this:



Full responsibility for peace rests upon the English-speaking nations. They had the

mastery after 1915, but didn't recognize and accept the call to duty. England and

the United States turned their backs on the high privilege of planetary service.

They wanted peace, prosperity and national security; they got depression,

unemployment, insecurity, and in twenty years another war. The United States

increased its trials and tribulations a million fold by trying to escape its


Between the two wars nothing was done to prepare the children and the youth of the

nation for their coming responsibility Ń their part to play in the world progress Ń

and many of them refused to grow up. Why did democracy decline so rapidly between

the two wars? The leaders in England, France and America were short-sighted. Many

couldn't see beyond their own personal interests. These men sometimes performed

against public sentiment; but even when replaced by others, the new ones behaved

likewise. There was paucity of leadership and indifference to liberty. They saw

Mussolini, Hitler and Tojo arming, but didn't take it seriously. Democracy was not

willing to fight. At various times an army of 5,000 to 25,000 men could have

prevented this war. The Democracies were unwilling and totally unorganized. They

hated war and longed for peace Ń but could you run a business or even manage a home

so shortsightedly? The cowardly leaders of Democracy have set the clock of

civilization back 2,000 years. But we have a chance to start afresh. Today there is

little Democracy to defend, and we can build a new world order from the ground up;

but we must reject the policy of nonresistance. You cant be as brotherly as you

would like to be with an unbrotherly brother.


The real problem is: Man wants liberty, and liberty with equality; but equality never

has existed. Freedom is an ideal. It doesn't exist.

Evolution can have freedom only with compulsion. We must restrain by compulsion.

This is true of the individual, community, state, nation and in family life. There

is no sense to the doctrine of freedom that gives citizens the right to combat and

destroy the freedoms that Democracy gives. There is no peace on earth with the

license to destroy the liberty and sovereignty of other peoples. No nations can

exist on a level above law. Freedom is fostered by human liberalism and

Christianity. What is liberalism in one generation is conservatism in the next.

Liberalism has become dogmatic and Democracy has ceased to grow. Democracy ceased to

keep pace with industrial progress. Self-government is slowly committing suicide.

Freedom must be ever militant and must unhesitatingly destroy whatever assails

freedom, and be intolerant concerning things undemocratic. There should be no

liberty of speech for those who would destroy liberty of speech. The tools of

freedom must not function in a suicidal capacity. There must be no liberty to vote

in the freedoms of Democracy to destroy the right to vote.


Democracy today is being destroyed by those who wish to use Democracy. Democracy is

not a club to join and forever enjoy its protection. As long as Democracy's basic

freedoms exist, it is a Democracy.

The right view of Democracy is a geographic group of people having a common ideal.

To allow Germans to live here and retain their German citizenship is like letting the

wolves live with the sheep. Offices must be held by citizens trained in schools of

statesmanship. These schools must be established.


The nations are suffering from intense industrialism and augmented nationalism. In

times past Nationalism was a good thing; it brought people together in a common

interest, within law and representative government. But when a social ideal becomes

a political dogma, it becomes an obstacle to world progress. Nationalism becomes a

relic of patriotism which no forward-looking prophet would dare touch.

Nationalism persists because it has not been attacked by modern and intelligent

citizens who do not seek to disrupt, but to save it by intelligent control. Present

day Nationalism is akin to polytheism. Nation and race became the pagan god of many

modern people. The time has come to give way before a monotheistic policy of

Internationalism. The churches must divorce themselves from Nationalism.


Internationalism will not be created by pacts, treaties, appeasements, etc. It will

be created by force of arms. It is the only way for the next 1000 years of

civilizations evolution. International Legislatures must make the international

laws; an International Court must interpret the laws; and International Police must

enforce the laws. Lesser nations must be forced into the international union.

Not in centuries has the Christian world had the opportunity to establish regional

internationalism. Now, following total war, is the time to establish international

government. Socialism, Communism and other world movements have lost their

influence. Now there must be coercive law with the sure penalties attached to its

violation. The god of Nationalism struck at the liberty of Democracy and at the

Christian religion.

Nationalism reached the beginning of the end when you could cross the ocean in six

hours and it took six weeks to get a visa. Recalcitrant and selfish Nationalism must

be made to accept Internationalism. It wont regret it 25 years from now.

There are only two realities in the world Ń the individual and the human race. The

cosmos does not recognize caste, tribe, race or nation. National war will end when

you recognize that nations are not the final goal of human evolution.


No single idea has wrought so much misery as that delusive concept of sovereignty.

Sovereignty passed from king to nation; a political dogma, for soon the people

wielded sovereignty much as kings did. Today millions are dying and millions more

will starve to the national idea of sovereignty. Sovereignty reached its height in

the French Revolution, and its deathbed is this war. Military victors have a chance

to resurrect it in a modified form. May it be a democratic modification.

Enormous vested interests are involved in the worship of the Golden Calf of

sovereignty which results in economic dislocation. What will be the effect upon our

returning soldiers? National matters should be handled by national sovereignty and

international affairs be handled by international sovereignty.


Peace will become the watch care of international government. When lawless

minorities learn that, then peace will prevail. Appeasement and moral-compromise are

the habits of peace-loving and self-loving Nationalists. The present conflict

resulted when nations wanted peace at any price. The theory of Democracy validates

the concept of equality Đ but the idea of equality produces conflicts which only

courts can settle, unless the victors establish international overcontrol for those

lesser people who are hungry for freedom and self-government.

The dream of equality is fiction. It is not nationally or individually true. Such a

dream can only be realized before God or before a court. Man acquires citizenship

equality before the law; before a supercourt all nations are equal. You cannot have

equality among trends or creations within law; and law without the coercive power of

enforcement is a tragic farce. Equality without law means war. Without super-law

you can only have peace when the weaker submit to the stronger.

Any hope for world peace without coercive international law is a furtive dream.

Mandatory law is law enforced by unquestioned force. Peace is the reign of law. Law

is the just use of force by unquestioned authority. There cant be lasting peace

without force. To make peace we must wage legal war. There is a difference between

the outlaw who kills a man and the sheriff who kills the outlaw for his crime. The

sheriff is not a murderer Ń he is a peace officer.

Non-intervention and appeasement are like the old monarchsŐ Ňgentlemen's

agreements.Ó Each agrees to let the other carry out his nefarious schemes.

War is the major factor in the non-spiritual history of the human race. At the

present time the most advanced peoples look upon it as an unnecessary evil. It is

the first time in history that world-wide peace had been talked of. Wars have become

increasingly more terrible in the last 150 years, and for the last 100 years no

government has been able to get the full support of its people in a war policy.

Leaders start wars on the theory that they are going to be, or have been, attacked.

If the majority want to abolish war, why don't they do it? If war is an expression

of human emotions like crime, it wont be abolished. But civilized people have

abolished individual crime. Another view: in the case of a criminal committing

murder you quickly distinguish between the criminal and the sheriff who shoots him.

Each from a biological viewpoint is guilty, but not from the social or moral

viewpoints. There are two kinds of war: (1) social criminal aggression, (2) legal

group military sanctions.

An International Government can (a) reduce war to a minimum just as courts function

to minimize crime, (b) render war a legal action on the part of authorized groups for

the peace, safety and security of all mankind. War can be and must be legalized,

minimized and humanized. The use of poison gas, submarines and aerial bombing of

civilian populations can be prevented. The International Police will be known as

Peace Armies. You cannot maintain rules of warfare when armies are conscripted and

nations are fighting for sovereignty. You cant have international law without

international power to enforce the law.

Disarmament on the part of the great nations such as the peace-loving people of the

United States is a direct contribution to war. If the English-speaking peoples

remain intelligent and fully armed, they will constitute the Peace Army until the

regional and international courts can be established. Equal quality of arms is a

delusion. What mayor of a great city would allow criminals to carry guns? Arm well

the police but prevent the criminal element from getting arms. Long have

well-meaning but short-sighted pacifists proclaimed, ŇYou cant have pace by waging

war.Ó That is exactly what you can do, and will have to do for the next millennium.

Legal war is the act of the legal authority of the International Government Đ action

is response to law. Legal war is designed to maintain peace, not to take loot or

seek revenge. It is waged by order of the legal authority of International

Government for safe-guarding the peace of nations. There are two kinds of fighting,

and any nation that fights an illegal war will fight a hopeless one. The time has

come for nations to be governed by law and not by political ambitions, personal whims

and directives, rampant nationalism, fanatical dictators, or the delusion of

sovereignty. Modern science has ended the day of the international frontiersman.

The forces of civilization have arrive on the international frontier.

The dogma of non-intervention is the most uncivilized and inconsistent ever held by

modern nations. What would you think of a policeman who would refuse to help a

fellow officer who was engaged in a struggle with a thug? And it is just such

strange and inhuman conduct on the part of America and other world powers which

enable unscrupulous dictators to become rulers in other parts of the world.

Non-intervention is the remnant of the ŇgentlemanŐs agreementÓ of the older rulers

which was just an agreement between monarchs not to interfere in each other's wars.

Today's advances in science, industry, commerce, communication, etc. render the dogma

of neutrality inconsistent. This neutrality makes possible (1) inconsistency of

policies, (2) corrupt press, (3) fomenting of strikes, disorganization, disunity,

divide and conquer.

Six or eight years ago the American nation began to watch a European nation stop

making automobiles and turn to making airplanes, conscript its citizens, make over

its schools, ration its food, tax and limit incomes. They were 2000 miles away so

American refused to be concerned; now we're doing those same things whether we like

it or not. The world cant go on half free and half slave; it must be either all free

or all slave. There are still thousands of Americans who don't see things as they

really are. They long for the day when it will be over and they can return to their

old ways. They are Isolationists at heart, ready to disarm and sink their navy

again. They learned very little from the last world war wherein the naval disaster

(disarming) was far more costly that the loss of Pearl Harbor.

If one great nation allow treaties to be counted as scraps of paper, then all great

nations are invalidated. Today if one goes off the gold standard, they all go off,

because each is so interdependent. The world is so economically interdependent that

the price of commodities must be determined by the producer operating under the least

favorable conditions. Which means, in competition, that the standard of living

starts on a downward spiral. Tariffs tend to make barriers, but you pay a price for

them. This downward spiral affects the standard of living, depth of culture, extent

of education, labor conditions, personal liberty, taxation, tariff, exports and

imports, defense policies and moral standards. The nation living under the least

favorable condition and lowest cultural standard will become the determining

influence over all other peoples.

The only hope of the survival of the American standards of living is to share them as

far as possible with other people. If one powerful nation is deficient in morality,

it costs us much more to keep ours up. The nation that would selfishly save its own

high standards is destined to lose them. In any circumscribed area of the world it

will be discovered, in the long run, that the existing government will be compelled

to gravitate gradually down to the level of the lowest and most primitive that is

allowed to exist. One criminal and inferior abroad in a community can corrupt a

score of well-meaning youths. In self-defense the Democracies must export life,

liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Whoever heard of neutrality between right and wrong? How can you be neutral in the

struggle between good and evil? In any ideological struggle neutrality is suicidal.

Neutrality means the enemy is free to pick you off one at a time. In local

government a sheriff, when hard-pressed by lawlessness, can deputize any number of

citizens, but such a plan wont work on a national scale. Such results can only be

gotten by internationalism.

Honest men cannot have confidential dealing with rascals. Honest nations keep their

word and live up to their treaties. The honest administration does not make treaties

with a dishonest neighbor. If war is to be outlawed, the farce of neutrality must

end. It is immoral and cowardly for a group of law-abiding citizens to stand idly by

and see a fellow citizen being held up, beaten and robbed; and such moral

indifference is suicidal to a nation. What can be said of Christian nations that

stand by complacently while the world gangsters strafe and plunder the civilized

world, murdering and starving little children? May it never happen again!

The French Revolution reached the highest point in the struggle for personal liberty,

the American Revolution in the struggle for national independence. A grave mistake

was made when the spirit of independence was concocted into a formula of

self-determination; and it was an American president who perpetrated this blunder

when only fifty years previously a Civil War was fought to prevent the right of

self-determination. Little nations can have no more self-determination than each

state of the Union can have complete sovereignty.

Each state is sovereign in all matters of state but in national affairs the Federal

Government is sovereign, and you can only have peace predicated on law. The idea of

every little nation having the right of self-determination only spells industrial

paralysis and social hell. Internationalism is detrimental to national intrigue.

You cant postulate independence without encountering interdependence, and nine out of

ten nations cant have economic independence without enormously lowering their

standard of living. The Untied States and Russia Đ the two most powerful nations in

the world Đ are economically independent. Humans are born wholly dependent. Each

child seeks independence but he learns, as he grows older, that he is

interdependent. The concept of complete independence is fallacious. In life there

is dependence, independence and the intelligent interdependence.

The complete independence of self-determination which was accorded the small nations

after the first world war did not afford them security. They were uneasy, suspicious

and tormented by feelings of insecurity. Both individuals and nations must learn the

lessons of interdependence. The attempt to complete economic independence leads to

over-production, disorderly distribution, unemployment, economic depression. Neither

a nation nor a small group of nations can hope to enjoy complete and independent

economic freedom.

In the spiritual world Ňno man liveth unto himself alone.Ó Neither can a nation

continue to live to itself. A state that strives for economic freedom will gravitate

certainly and swiftly to a totalitarian state. Fascism and Nazism is the result of

striving for economic freedom Đ freedom without restraint, liberty without

compulsion. Honesty in business and altruism in government pay high dividends.

We must relinquish national sovereignty and enter into international sovereignty.

Think how much states are free when they don't have to concern themselves with things

Federal. So would nations be more free with an International Government to attend to

global affairs. It will be too late to undertake it after the war is over. Says the

Declaration of Independence: ŇWhenever any form of government becomes so destructive

of these ends Đ life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness Đ it is the right of the

people to alter, abolish or institute new government, laying its foundations on such

principles, and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely

to effect their safety and happiness.Ó

Today the nations of the earth are most unsafe and most unhappy. Nationalism is on

its deathbed. Unlimited sovereignty is moribund. The time has come for the birth of

Internationalism. Let the sick nations follow the wise counsel of the fathers of

American independence. Will you humble your nationalism enough to adopt a sane


Dictators proclaim ŇMight makes Right.Ó Democracies believe Right is Might. The

world is suffering from these errors or relative truths. Spiritual causes cannot

employ physical force in their interests, but material causes depend on physical

force for their survival. It is perfectly proper to found a church on the ideas of

the League of Nations of World War I. When the League of Nations didn't apply force,

it committed suicide. War is a legal reality. When not used in the support of law,

it will be used in the contravention of law and against economic justice. How silly

to let international gangsters and criminals dominate the world!

Diverse forces form the service of aggression and attach it to the law of justice.

Our slogan should be ŇRight predicated on Might.Ó Educate zealous crusaders to toil

for the new order. Democracy has too many apostles and not enough crusaders. When

two nations are in trouble with each other, neither one can judge their aggressions.

That is the job of an International Court. Aggression is good when directed against

injustice. Hitler made his first aggression when he proclaimed, ŇRight is whatever

is in the interest of the German folk.Ó That's the time we should have struck.

Judgment is the function of a group.

Democracy cannot be static. Peace is dynamic. When the law-abiding citizen is

static, then the outlaw is dynamic. As we exist today we can only exist by waging

war Đ war that is waged in the interest of international law. War can only be

prevented by the action of International Police ready to act instantly. Failure to

provide for International Police provides for international banditry. When the first

international military force moves against the first one who dares to go against

international law, then we'll have peace.

Democracies were used to seeing local gangsters committing crime, but were shocked to

see them at the heads of governments. We dreaded law with force. Now we have a

world with force without law.

If this happened in 1945 then it took almost 60 years before this idea applied itself in Iraq.
What it has to do with Orichalcum I have no idea.

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Tina Walter
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Posts: 3619

« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2007, 09:04:48 pm »


Member # 1452

Smelting operations leave a large quantity of slag. Here is a link which says that slag can be cast into blocks and then used to build walls (such as the walls which Plato described encircling the metropolis of Atlantis).
quote from:
Slag heaps-- A necessary feature of smelting sites is the slag heap, where the slag from the smelting process was deposited. Smelters produced 5 to 10 times as much slag as they did copper, and slag is an extremely durable marker of a smelter site. Slag could be run into sand moulds, giving lozenge-shaped pillows of slag (common at early or under-resources isolated smelters), or it could be poured into conical iron wheeled-buckets, giving cones of slag if it set (seen at both reverberatory and water-jacket sites), or poured in its molten state into formwork squares or simply poured over the tip face as a flowing mass, or quenched in water to give a granulated slag (the last three methods being more commonly associated with water-jacket smelters). Slag squares were often used to pave over the uneven top of the slag heap to allow easy access by wheeled buckets to the tipping edge. At some sites slag was caste into blocks and used as a massive building material for walls.


Member # 1027

Respected Ulf:
Please refer to your post on the last page where you have suggested the following link from Respected Atalante:

QUOTE>> There are three explanations for the derivation of its name: firstly it took its name from the copper mines, secondly from Chalkida, the daughter of Asopos or thirdly from "Chalki" or "Kalki", the purple shellfish which the Phoenicians used for a dye in the town. <<UNQUOTE

“Shalk” translates as “Hard Scale” or “Shell” of the fish or other similar animals. So Phoenicians could have named some shellfish as “Shalki” or “Chalki”, but mostly not the “Kalki”. They could be using the shell of this fish for dying.

However in spite of feeling the connection, earlier I have never used this word for “Orichalcum”, because I felt that Plato was referring to some metal and not to some calcium laden fish Shalk (shell), especially if it was not dying “flaming red”.

With Regards…

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Tina Walter
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Posts: 3619

« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2007, 09:07:31 pm »


Member # 1452

In this post, I will comment on self fluxing copper ores, which are obviously a candidate for Plato's "mountain metal" (orichalc).
Nearly all copper ores (especially the ones used in the modern era) need to be combined with some material known as flux, to lower the melting point during the smelting process.

But metalurgists recognize that SOME copper ores are self-fluxing. Historically speaking, it is very likely that copper working originated in regions which had self-fluxing ore. Then at later dates, the smiths in various parts of the world could gradually learn the art of using fluxes.

Here is a link about one of those self-fluxing copper ores which was used in ancient times.

quote from:
During June of 2002 and June of 2003, we undertook preliminary analysis of the pottery as well as the copper ores and slags that we recovered from the furnace..... Our studies show that the copper ore is malachite and cuprite, associated with iron oxide in a quartz matrix. Experimental work shows that the ore is self fluxing, which lowers the melting point of the copper. Our work on this aspect of the smelting technology continues. We plan to source the obsidian (which includes green, grey, and black) and to submit a number of carbon samples for analysis (we collected approximately 100 samples). The results of these and other on-going laboratory studies, in conjunction with further excavations, will amplify our interpretation of this smelting technology and this site.

This post is about a a special rock material. It was originally distributed by a stone age trading network, which survived into the era of metal users. This trading network may have been known as the Age of Uranus, a primitive sky god in Greek mythology.
This ancient marketing network originated substantially earlier than 4000 BC, to distribute stones called Lapis Lazuli, which are found in Badakshan, but virtually nowhere else in Eurasia. The place of origin for these Lapis Lazuli deposits is near the Pamir Knot, where the Himalaya mountain chain reaches its geatest heights. That region is considered to be "the roof of the world".

Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia both obtained Lapis Lazuli from the Badakshan. Due to the rarity, this rock was typically priced about equal to gold. (But due to the high prices they found ways to create imitation, or synthetic, Lapis Lazuli.)

Since the locations of the primary deposits were in extremely highland locations, Lapis Lazuli became commonly associated with the sky, or the god of the sky. There are inclusions of white calcite, in Lapis Lazuli, which look like white clouds floating in a blue sky. The "clouds & sky" effect is easy to see in the following link, which shows wall tiles made from Lapis Lazuli. (Note that gem quality Lapis Lazuli is selected to omit these white inclusions.)

There are also many tiny inclusions of Iron Pyrite ("fools gold") in Lapis Lazuli. These gold flecks are consided to resemble stars in the sky.

quote from:


(lapis lazuli)
semiprecious stone valued for its deep blue colour. The source of the pigment ultramarine (q.v.), it is not a mineral but a rock coloured by lazurite (see sodalite). In addition to the sodalite minerals in lapis lazuli, small amounts of white calcite and of pyrite crystals are usually present. Diopside, amphibole, feldspar, mica, apatite, titanite (sphene), and zircon may also occur.

Because lapis is a rock of varying composition, its physical properties are variable. It usually occurs in crystalline limestones and is a product of contact metamorphism. The most important sources are the mines in Badakhshan, northeastern Afghanistan, and those near Ovalle, Chile, where it is usually pale rather than deep blue. Much of the material that is sold as lapis is an artificially coloured jasper from Germany that shows colourless specks of clear, crystallized quartz and never the goldlike flecks of pyrite that are characteristic of lapis lazuli and have been compared with stars in the sky.


The pigment which is made by grinding up Lapis Lazuli creates a color known as "ultramarine". Ancient artisans in both Mesopotamia and Egypt learned how to paint murals and other objects with ultramarine pigment, rather than using thick chunks of such an expensive material.

Marco Polo travelled through Badakshan when he traveled to India, and it is said that he introduced pigment made from Lapis Lazuli to the peoples of Europe.

In the 19th century, a European chemist found a way to make cheap cheap synthetic Lazulite pigment.

Here is a nice link which explains the backgound of Lapis Lazuli, and the process of making synthetic Lapis Lazuli.,1848,126079,00.html

And here is another link which gives some other worthwhile info. For example, the name Lazuli comes from Arabic lanuage, where the root azul means "blue". And Alexander the Great brought back the solid rock form of Lapis Lazuli during his conquest of the East (ca 330 BC). The name "ultramarine" refers to its source "beyond the (Black and Caspian) seas".

You proposed that orichalc might be a compound of copper.
My research is tending toward that approach. But also expecting it to be a gemstone form of flux for smelting copper.

Here is a material which I consider very interesting, a substance which is caused by hematite co-crystalizing on copper. This mineral is called sunstone.

Here is another link with a nice picture of an irridesencet red-orange sunstone.

quote from:
Sunstone has been a favorite of gemstone collectors for many years. It forms in the basalt magma fields of southern Oregon and reaches the surfaces in magma flows. It has a Mohs hardness rating of 6-6 ˝. It is a labradorite that co-crystallizes with copper as it grows. The unusual "schiller" is created from the mixing with these tiny platelets of copper. This effect is reddish-orange in color with a golden iridescence or "aventurescence" flashing out at some angles. Additionally, light interference on hematite or goethite plates can also result in green or blue colors for this aventurine feldspar (Schumann, 1997, p. 166). (P. Mura and S. Gering)

The word intrarsia, in the English language, carries many implications about the "celing" which Plato was claiming as a major use of orichalc in Critias 116D.
Crit. 116D: „As to the interior (of the temple), they made the roof all of ivory in appearance, variegated with gold and silver and ORICHALCUM, and all the rest of the walls and pillars and floors they covered with ORICHALCUM.“

Intarsia is an artform of inlaying natural materials to form a picture or a design.

For example, here are some intarsia boxes which use minerals for the inlays.

And here is a link which discusses woodworking intarsia for projects, some of which can be the size of wall murals. Each variety of color (for an intarsia design) should be generated from a species of wood in its natural state. I especially like the first example, which is a 28 inch by 36 inch mural with 189 interlocking pieces of wood.

Based on analogy to the artform of intarsia, the "varigated" appearance which Plato mentions in Critias 116D may have been contributed by inlaying natural materials (and not by "painting").

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2007, 09:09:20 pm »

Ulf Richter
Member # 1190

your idea of "orichalcum" being a red flashing mineral is worth to think about.

> Sunstone . . forms in the basalt magma fields of southern Oregon and reaches the surfaces in magma flows. . . .It is a labradorite that co-crystallizes with copper as it grows. The unusual "schiller" is created from the mixing with these tiny platelets of copper. This effect is reddish-orange in color with a golden iridescence or "aventurescence" flashing out at some angles. <

It could be used to cover walls, when it is possible to make plates or tiles from it. For this purpose it would be necessary to find it in greater pieces and not only in small crystals for gem collectors. Does anybody know more about this mineral?
And where is it found, only in Oregon or also in other volcanic regions, e.g. at the Azores, the place where Akata is convinced that "orichalcum" was coming from?

Spiritwalker, JohnE,
It is not necessary that the old Hebrews and the Atlanteans used the same coverings for their walls.
The use of electricity for illuminating city walls, temple floors and the incised pillar is a charming speculation, but I doubt it.
Orichalcum was sparkling in the sun and not in the dark, like St.Elmo´s fire.
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Tina Walter
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2007, 09:11:27 pm »


Member # 1452

In this post I will demonstrate the steps which occur during smelting to convert
black-fluid-copper into shiny red copper. It seems that the term "japanned" copper (or "laquered" copper) can be applied to this stage of production. I want to call attention to the fact that some material (lead and coal dust) is stirred into to black fluid because Georgeos's book lists
"stirred-in-copper" as one of the alternative meanings for (red) orichalc.
quote from:

Then one lets the fire die down a bit and pours the fluid black copper into iron boxes as before.

The metal is now in a state where it can be purified. This, however, does not take place in the same way as in our own copper works but rather in a way which distinguishes it, in that the copper at these works is made completely pure immediately so that it can be worked by coppersmiths without further refining.

To achieve this one places the cakes in the refining furnace, which is just like the previous furnace, and roasts it for 16 hours, gradually increasing the temperature so that the copper melts slowly. When this has happened, 25 to 30 pounds of lead is put onto the three tons of copper which one will refine all at the same time. Then one maintains a strong heat for several hours so that a proper slag can form and the impurities still found in the copper can dissolve out. The slag is removed from time to time so that the calcination of the metal pieces being scorified can proceed even better with the introduction of fresh air.

When the scorification is coming to an end, enough coal dust is thrown on to sufficiently coat the surface of the metal. Then the refiner shoves a tree in the furnace and presses it into the metal as strongly as he can. Because one uses elms or young oaks from four to six inches in diameter which have been freshly cut or left to lie in water to keep them damp, a violent bubbling occurs in the copper when one pushes the tree into it. This is allowed to continue for several minutes. Then one throws coal dust over the copper again and the bubbling recurs. This process continues until the copper has reached the requisite degree of purity. One ascertains this by removing a little copper with a small test spoon. As soon as the copper solidifies, it is quenched in water and breaks into bits. If the colour is a bright brick red, and the break shows that it is fine-fibred and as glassy as satin, then it is of the required purity. If, on the other hand, it is blistered inside and dark red, then one has to carry out the previous procedure, which one calls phlogistics for a longer period of time. One must even add some lead, if the metal is still not ready, whereby, however, the phlogistics must always be repeated.

When the copper has reached the desired purity, it is either poured out as cakes in the previously described manner, granulated or poured out in small bars, which are formed like bars of sealing wax and are usually called Japanese copper in Germany but should actually be called lacquered copper because the English word japanned copper signifies this. Also it is generally known in England that all the copper produced by this firm is produced in the country and is used in business with the East Indies.

The cakes, most of which are treated in the rolling mills of the company, are usually one and an half inches thick. In order to maintain this thickness, it is necessary that both of the workers who do the pouring shovel as quickly and at as regular intervals as possible so that when the first one has poured out his ladleful, the other one can follow on immediately so that the metal does not solidify before the next ladleful arrives.

The boxes are washed out with clay beforehand and the bottom cakes are only poured thinly because they have to be melted again. When the pouring is finished, the boxes are cooled in a tank with water. Then the cakes are taken out, trimmed at the edges, stamped and numbered and sent off from the works.

Granulation occurs in the following way. A cylindrical container of copper which can be brought up again afterwards with the help of a crane winch is let down into a round 12 foot deep tank, through which water continuously flows, A copperplate dome is place over the tank, with an opening on one side for the ladle carrying the metal. This hole must, for this occasion, be much smaller than the hole used in pouring of the plates because the metal can only be poured into the water in small portions, on account of the violent explosion, which would occur if too much metal hits the water at once, and because too much copper ladled out at once would also solidify in the ladle. For this reason this process is carried out by only one worker. He scoops up some copper, puts the spoon through the opening of the dome over the tank and gradually shakes the copper into the water where it sinks to the bottom producing crackling sounds and frequently, blue flames. The copper falls two to three feet through a column of air before it reaches the water and by doing this takes on a form which has a distant resemblance to the texture of a feather. One therefore calls these granules feather-shot to distinguish them from the rounder granules which one gets when the copper is poured directly into the water. Because the granulation takes a lot of time, one has to ensure that the metal in the furnace does not get too cold; to protect it against calcining, the surface is dusted with coal dust.

Granulation was used everywhere in England in the preparation of brass, for which it is also undoubtedly more suitable than refined copper because the granules consists of very thin plates which can mix with the calamine better and offer a larger surface area for the developing zinc vapour to penetrate. However, more of this when I discuss brass production.

The so-called lacquered copper is poured in the form of ingots. Several such forms are fastened to an iron wheel which is positioned over a tank filled with water, which is likewise positioned very close to the front of the furnace. When the metal reaches the necessary refined state, a young lad, using a paint brush, paints the form with oil, and the pouring master, using a spoon which holds just about what the form will hold, pours the metal in the forms.

In the meantime another worker holds ready a container with water which he pours on the copper in the form; As soon as the copper solidifies, he turns the wheel so that the bar cools itself completely in the water in the tank.

The copper is poured into the form next to the first form following the same procedure; however, before one paints the form with oil it is first carefully dried out with a cloth. Otherwise the water mixing with the molten copper could cause a dangerous explosion for one of the workers. One uses the forms in rotation so that there is enough time for them to cool again before introducing molten copper; otherwise the copper would stick to them.

This is the simple process which produces a quality of copper which one values so much abroad, which, however, the English smelters who produce it regard as less pure than cake copper. The oil with which the forms are painted before each casting serves to hinder the effect of oxygen from the air as well as the cooling water and keeps the outer surface completely metallic. The outer surface also becomes shiny through the sudden pulling together of the particles in the same way that any metal takes on a higher shine when its surface particles are brought closer together through pressure, under the coin press, for example.

The working up of the precipitated copper is less difficult than the procedure for the ore. At the first smelting one places eight hundredweight of precipitate with four hundredweight of slag and half a hundredweight of anthracite in the furnace, takes away the slag when everything is well melted and pours the metallic part, which is very impure black copper, in iron boxes to make cakes. These undergo a 24 hour roasting and are then slowly melted and poured out. The same operation is repeated again, after which the metal is sent for refining.

These then are the English smelting and refining processes, which I cannot leave without first explaining a few operations which are not common for us and without making a brief comparison between these and the normal smelting methods used in Germany....

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2007, 09:13:13 pm »


Respected Ulf:
Generally I was thinking that only Brass is the Orichalcum. But it was not getting any worth of progress.

Suddenly I am finding that the MYSTERY of ORICHALCUM stands as good as RESOLVED. It is a costly proposition to paint it on the walls of the palace and perhaps may be next costly only to the Gold during the Atlantean times. However in every Indian household, the married women daily apply it on their forehead in powder form as a mark of fashion and also as a sacred ritual of them being married.

This is the famous and highly sacred Powder of “SINDOOR” which is also applied to the statue of Warrior God Hanuman in all the temples. For this purpose, Sindoor is mixed with Oil or Ghee and the paste is coated on the Idol of the God. This paste is quite enduring and it shines exactly as Shining Red or Flaming Red as described by Plato. No other red color can match the beauty of the flashing Red color created by Sindoor.

Chemically it is certainly poisonous, if taken orally or internally. As I remember the old chemistry, it is basically the “Red Mercury Oxide”, however to reduce the price some traders may be mixing it with “Red Lead Oxide”. One website, I have just seen says that it is made of “Zink Oxide”. I leave it to you to study further.

So this ancient sacred powder must be getting mixed with pure aromatic Ghee and coated on the walls of sacred temple or palace of Poseidon.

Theological aspects of “Sindoor” the Mercury/Lead Oxide powder and paste are as following:

I was earlier thinking that Sindoor consists of basically Red Oxide of Mercury or Lead Oxide, but I am now finding that it may be even Zink Oxide. Please see:

However in any case, it is poisonous for any internal use.

It’s name Orichalcum may also clearly identify it as “The Coating of God” or “The Shalk of God”.

So instead of being the Shalk of Fish, it is better considered as the Shalk of God.

If this is correct, then I will be most astonished that why such a simple, plausible and most common item was so easily overlooked by me.

With Regards…

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2007, 09:14:21 pm »


Member # 2066

From a post by Absonite a few months ago:
"Bronze, an alloy of copper and tin, was used in enormous quantities during the Bronze Age. The sources of these metals and, particularly, tin, have never been adequately identified. The Koltepe mines in Anatolia (Turkey) were a puny affair, those of Tartessos (Spain) were purely legendary, and those of Cornwall (England) were discovered only after the Bronze Age had declined."

Cyprus has already been mentioned but I've yet seen any mention of ancient Magan. To quote from

"Was Oman the land of Magan, which appears in Sumerian cuneiform texts ca. 2300 B.C. as a source of copper and diorite for the flourishing city-states of Mesopotamia? These texts tell us that ships with a cargo capacity of 20 tons sailed up the Arabian Gulf, stopping at Dilmun to take on fresh water before continuing to Mesopotamia. They also say that Magan lay south of Sumer and Dilmun, was frequented by Indus Valley travelers, and had high mountains from which diorite or gabbro for black statues was quarried. Research since the 1970s has located significant copper deposits and more than 150 medieval Islamic smelting sites. Excavations by the German Mining Museum have identified numerous Magan-period (2500-2000 B.C.) slag heaps under tons of medieval slag and third millennium remains from mining and smelting at the oasis village of Maysar in central-eastern Oman. A hoard of bun-shaped copper ingots found in a small fireplace indicates the form in which copper was traded."

Thor Heyerdahl described and took photos of the ancient quarries in the Tigris expedition. The ancient miners levelled whole mountains.

The bronze age civilizations would not have had a steady stream of reed boat convoys making their way to the Great Lakes of America across the northern Atlantic, when the ores they needed were relatively close in proximity to the civilized centers of the time.

Just my opinion...

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2007, 09:15:43 pm »

Ulf Richter
Member # 1190

Respected Rajesh,
Your proposal orichalcum being a paint made from red mercury oxyde powder in oil, is interesting. Plato wrote in Crit.116B "and they covered with (brass), as though with a plaster, all the circumference of the wall which surrounded the outermost circle, and that of the inner one they coated with tin, and that which encompassed the acropolis itself with orichalcum .." (transl. Bury).
Can "plaster" mean a paint? In the German translations is written "oil" instead of "plaster", this sounds more like your red oil paint. But the "covering with the help of oil" is mentioned only for the outermost wall, not for the innermost, the "orichalcum covered" wall. If all three walls were covered in the same way, and the innermost with mercury oxyde paint, this must lead to the conclusion, that also the two outer walls were not covered with metal sheets as we always suppose, but also with paints containing tin or copper powder.

And what shall we think about the orichalcum pillar where Poseidon´s laws were engraved, and over whose top the bulls were killed? The blood of the bulls would wash the paint away soon. From which material was the pillar made when "orichalcum" was only the paint on it?
A new theory raises new questions.

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2007, 09:17:08 pm »


Member # 1027

Respected ULF:
The coating of Sindoor (Merc/Lead Oxide) mixed with viscous Ghee (Butter Oil) can resemble both with the plaster and the paint, depending upon the numbers of the coatings.

Also in the temples, this paint or plaster is rejuvenated by the devotees when some of their wishes are fulfilled. So regarding the stains of the sacrificed blood on the Atlantean pillar, they used to gather there only each 5 and 6 years and every time they purified the pillar after the ritual.

You have a valid point regarding “Pillar of Orichalcum”. However if you happen to show me any pillar covered with Sindoor, then I will immediately call it as a “Sinduri Pillar” or “Pillar of Sindoor”. The highest sacrosancy of Sindoor is most likely to override the concerns regarding the material or metal inside the pillar.

Even today wherever the bull (buffalo) is sacrificed legally and ritually, then the head of the bull is first purified with the coating of this Sindoor. So the purification ritual of Pillar may also mean to accommodate another new coating of the Sindoor paint on the Pillar..

Regarding engraved commandments on Orichalcum, I have seen numerous temples where sacred scriptures have been engraved on walls or stones or Brass and are painted by Sindoor. So they look like written or engraved on “Sindoor” the Orichalcum.

Still I have to be open and think that Orichalcum may be either Sindoor or Brass or any other suitable metal, alloy or compound. This so because this problem is highly complex and puzzling.

With Regards…

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2007, 09:20:21 pm »

Member # 2020

Dear Rajesh,
It seems that you have not read the important contributions and demonstrations of Georgeos Diaz on oreichalkós, I think that Georgeos Diaz has demonstrated of way more than sufficient that it could have been oreichalkós and as anyone of the possibilities is in Iberia.

I understand that by many proof that Georgeos Diaz can show you can not want to see them so that does not interest to see them to him, since you try to place Atlantis in the opposed end of which Plato says, that is, in Indonesia or in some place of the Indian Ocean, but, which I cannot understand of any way like is that you not even respect the ethymology of the name, because not exist the smallest doubt, that the Chalkós word, "copper", is present in the name of the orichalcum, what forces to discard any other type of metal or alloy that does not contain to copper like the most important or predominant component, always supposing that outside alloy of copper with another element, since alloy could even have been a type of native to copper not a metal.

Their commentaries on the Sindoor (Merc/Lead Oxide) are interesting, peculiar, but they do not have anything to do with oreichalkós of Plato.

Why it is tried always to distract to the readers and students of Atlantis of the evidences that are clear and that they are already demonstrated, towards that can not even be sustained with the own words of Plato?

Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain


Member # 1766

Respected Rajesh,
I find your original idea of "coating of Sindoor (Merc/Lead Oxide) mixed with viscous Ghee" in regards to the mystery of Plato's Orichalcum quite interesting and believe you may have discovered the answer to that mystery, or at least something quite close.
Nice work and research.

Member # 2020

Je, je, je 
Absonite already was convinced that Atlantis were not in Cyprus, URRAAA!!, so that if the respectable Rahesh (according to Absonite thinks now) has deciphered that the oreichalkos or "mountain-copper", was one alloy of Merc/Lead Oxide (that does not have anything to do with copper), then means that Absonite now thinks that Atlantis was in India and not in Cyprus, so that oreichalkós is the metal that it identifies to the Atlanteans, according to Plato.

That Great Surprise!! ... or at least, that only has said it to want to go against the theories of Georgeos Diaz ... who knows?

Je, je, je

Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2007, 09:22:17 pm »


Respected Elys:
Thanx for the kind comments. I always have high respect for the undaunted spirit and the inquisitive approach of Respected Georgeos towards the search of Atlantis.

I hold a different opinion, not merely as an expression of my free opinion, but more because I feel that there can be better propositions or better locations. These differences of opinions or their expression in any form or from any party and in any case is NOT going to reduce my respect towards YOU or to Respected Georgeos or to Spain. Whenever or wherever I will feel that all the findings of Respected Georgeos are absolutely correct, I will not hesitate a moment to express the same. Till then I think that we all are searching, searching and searching… and Orichalcum is only a small part of that search.

Respected Absonite: Thanx for the encouraging comments. Orichalcum is important, but we can understand that the matter of Orichalcum alone can not shift Atlantis from one place to any other place.

With Regards…

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Tina Walter
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« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2007, 09:23:02 pm »


Member # 1766

respected Rajesh,
I had no intention to shift my opinion that the discovered Sarmast location of Cyprus is actually Atlantis. I believe that time will tell that story more fully.

I admired your theory that the paste/plaster described and "painted" on fits more into the probable solution to the mystery of orichalcum. It makes a lot of sense whether it is correct or not, I believe it is close to the solution. I personally do not know all the chemical compositions and combinations possible but it is quite logical considering the methods described. The Atlanteans apparently knew much about the elements and how to manipulate the various compositions to create the desired effect they were trying to acheive. I supposed they could have also mixed in Mica or some other sort of mineral to create the glitter type of effects that Plato described.
Until an expedition actually brings up a piece of the wall covering the mystery will continue to be one theory after another.

There is only one other possible location (in my opinion) for Atlantis besides Cyprus and that is in the Persian Gulf near Kuwait and presently under water.

This circular area contained a 40 foot high wall and is the Prince's city of Dalamatia as described in the Urantia papers. Some references of the geographical features to this other city of "superhumans" or " Gods" are as follows:

"66:3.1 The headquarters of the Planetary Prince was situated in the Persian Gulf region of those days, in the district corresponding to later Mesopotamia."

"66:3.3 The headquarters of the Planetary Prince on Urantia was typical of such stations on a young and developing sphere. The nucleus of the Prince's settlement was a very simple but beautiful city, enclosed within a wall forty feet high. This world center of culture was named ĘDalamatiaĘ in honor of Daligastia.

66:3.4 The city was laid out in ten subdivisions with the headquarters mansions of the ten councils of the corporeal staff situated at the centers of these subdivisions. Centermost in the city was the temple of the unseen Father. The administrative headquarters of the Prince and his associates was arranged in twelve chambers immediately grouped about the temple itself.

66:3.5 The buildings of ĘDalamatiaĘ were all one story except the council headquarters, which were two stories, and the central temple of the Father of all, which was small but three stories in height.

66:3.6 The city represented the best practices of those early days in building material -- brick. Very little stone or wood was used. Home building and village architecture among the surrounding peoples were greatly improved by the Dalamatian example."

"66:7.1 The Prince's headquarters, though exquisitely beautiful and designed to awe the primitive men of that age, was altogether modest. The buildings were not especially large as it was the motive of these imported teachers to encourage the eventual development of agriculture through the introduction of animal husbandry. The land provision within the city walls was sufficient to provide for pasturage and gardening for the support of a population of about twenty thousand.

66:7.2 The interiors of the central temple of worship and the ten council mansions of the supervising groups of supermen were indeed beautiful works of art. And while the residential buildings were models of neatness and cleanliness, everything was very simple and altogether primitive in comparison with later-day developments. At this headquarters of culture no methods were employed which did not naturally belong on Urantia.

66:7.3 The Prince's corporeal staff presided over simple and exemplary abodes which they maintained as homes designed to inspire and favorably impress the student observers sojourning at the world's social center and educational headquarters."

"....They did not work in stone or marble, but their works of clay, hardened by baking, adorned the gardens of ĘDalamatiaĘ."

"66:5.9 4. The faculty on dissemination and conservation of knowledge. This group organized and directed the purely educational endeavors of those early ages. It was presided over by Fad. The educational methods of Fad consisted in supervision of employment accompanied by instruction in improved methods of labor. Fad formulated the first alphabet and introduced a writing system. This alphabet contained twenty-five characters. For writing material these early peoples utilized tree barks, clay tablets, stone slabs, a form of parchment made of hammered hides, and a crude form of paperlike material made from wasps' nests. The ĘDalamatiaĘ library, destroyed soon after the Caligastia disaffection, comprised more than two million separate records and was known as the "house of Fad." "

"77:2.3 The postrebellion era on Urantia witnessed many unusual happenings. A great civilization -- the culture of ĘDalamatiaĘ -- was going to pieces. "The Nephilim (Nodites) were on earth in those days, and when these sons of the gods went in to the daughters of men and they bore to them, their children were the `mighty men of old,' the `men of renown.'" While hardly "sons of the gods," the staff and their early descendants were so regarded by the evolutionary mortals of those distant days; even their stature came to be magnified by tradition. This, then, is the origin of the well-nigh universal folk tale of the gods who came down to earth and there with the daughters of men begot an ancient race of heroes. And all this legend became further confused with the race mixtures of the later appearing Adamites in the second garden."

"77:3.1 After the submergence of ĘDalamatiaĘ the Nodites moved north and east, presently founding the new city of Dilmun as their racial and cultural headquarters. And about fifty thousand years after the death of Nod, when the offspring of the Prince's staff had become too numerous to find subsistence in the lands immediately surrounding their new city of Dilmun, and after they had reached out to intermarry with the Andonite and Sangik tribes adjoining their borders, it occurred to their leaders that something should be done to preserve their racial unity. Accordingly a council of the tribes was called, and after much deliberation the plan of Bablot, a descendant of Nod, was indorsed.

77:3.2 Bablot proposed to erect a pretentious temple of racial glorification at the center of their then occupied territory. This temple was to have a tower the like of which the world had never seen. It was to be a monumental memorial to their passing greatness. There were many who wished to have this monument erected in Dilmun, but others contended that such a great structure should be placed a safe distance from the dangers of the sea, remembering the traditions of the engulfment of their first capital, ĘDalamatiaĘ."

"77:4.6 3. The central or pre-Sumerian Nodites. A small group at the mouth of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers maintained more of their racial integrity. They persisted for thousands of years and eventually furnished the Nodite ancestry which blended with the Adamites to found the Sumerian peoples of historic times.

77:4.7 And all this explains how the Sumerians appeared so suddenly and mysteriously on the stage of action in Mesopotamia. Investigators will never be able to trace out and follow these tribes back to the beginning of the Sumerians, who had their origin two hundred thousand years ago after the submergence of ĘDalamatiaĘ. Without a trace of origin elsewhere in the world, these ancient tribes suddenly loom upon the horizon of civilization with a full-grown and superior culture, embracing temples, metalwork, agriculture, animals, pottery, weaving, commercial law, civil codes, religious ceremonial, and an old system of writing. At the beginning of the historical era they had long since lost the alphabet of ĘDalamatiaĘ, having adopted the peculiar writing system originating in Dilmun. The Sumerian language, though virtually lost to the world, was not Semitic; it had much in common with the so-called Aryan tongues.

77:4.8 The elaborate records left by the Sumerians describe the site of a remarkable settlement which was located on the Persian Gulf near the earlier city of Dilmun. The Egyptians called this city of ancient glory Dilmat, while the later Adamized Sumerians confused both the first and second Nodite cities with ĘDalamatia and called all three Dilmun. And already have archaeologists found these ancient Sumerian clay tablets which tell of this earthly paradise "where the Gods first blessed mankind with the example of civilized and cultured life." And these tablets, descriptive of Dilmun, the paradise of men and God, are now silently resting on the dusty shelves of many museums.

77:4.9 The Sumerians well knew of the first and second Edens but, despite extensive intermarriage with the Adamites, continued to regard the garden dwellers to the north as an alien race. Sumerian pride in the more ancient Nodite culture led them to ignore these later vistas of glory in favor of the grandeur and paradisiacal traditions of the city of Dilmun.

77:4.10 4. The northern Nodites and Amadonites -- the Vanites. This group arose prior to the Bablot conflict. These northernmost Nodites were descendants of those who had forsaken the leadership of Nod and his successors for that of Van and Amadon.

77:4.11 Some of the early associates of Van subsequently settled about the shores of the lake which still bears his name, and their traditions grew up about this locality. Ararat became their sacred mountain, having much the same meaning to later-day Vanites that Sinai had to the Hebrews. Ten thousand years ago the Vanite ancestors of the Assyrians taught that their moral law of seven commandments had been given to Van by the Gods upon Mount Ararat. They firmly believed that Van and his associate Amadon were taken alive from the planet while they were up on the mountain engaged in worship.

77:4.12 Mount Ararat was the sacred mountain of northern Mesopotamia, and since much of your tradition of these ancient times was acquired in connection with the Babylonian story of the flood, it is not surprising that Mount Ararat and its region were woven into the later Jewish story of Noah and the universal flood.

77:4.13 About 35,000 B.C. Adamson visited one of the easternmost of the old Vanite settlements to found his center of civilization."

"67:4.2 The sixty members of the planetary staff who went into rebellion chose Nod as their leader. They worked wholeheartedly for the rebel Prince but soon discovered that they were deprived of the sustenance of the system life circuits. They awakened to the fact that they had been degraded to the status of mortal beings. They were indeed superhuman but, at the same time, material and mortal. In an effort to increase their numbers, Daligastia ordered immediate resort to sexual reproduction, knowing full well that the original sixty and their forty-four modified Andonite associates were doomed to suffer extinction by death, sooner or later. After the fall of ĘDalamatiaĘ the disloyal staff migrated to the north and the east. Their descendants were long known as the Nodites, and their dwelling place as "the land of Nod."

67:4.3 The presence of these extraordinary supermen and superwomen, stranded by rebellion and presently mating with the sons and daughters of earth, easily gave origin to those traditional stories of the gods coming down to mate with mortals. And thus originated the thousand and one legends of a mythical nature, but founded on the facts of the postrebellion days, which later found a place in the folk tales and traditions of the various peoples whose ancestors had participated in these contacts with the Nodites and their descendants.

67:4.4 The staff rebels, deprived of spiritual sustenance, eventually died a natural death. And much of the subsequent idolatry of the human races grew out of the desire to perpetuate the memory of these highly honored beings of the days of Caligastia."

"67:5.4 One hundred and sixty-two years after the rebellion a tidal wave swept up over ĘDalamatia, and the planetary headquarters sank beneath the waters of the sea, and this land did not again emerge until almost every vestige of the noble culture of those splendid ages had been obliterated."

"The chief center of Adamite culture was in the second garden, located in the triangle of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers; this was indeed the cradle of Occidental and Indian civilizations. The secondary or northern center of the violet race was the Adamsonite headquarters, situated east of the southern shore of the Caspian Sea near the Kopet mountains. From these two centers there went forth to the surrounding lands the culture and life plasm which so immediately quickened all the races.

78:1.4 2. Pre-Sumerians and other Nodites. There were also present in Mesopotamia, near the mouth of the rivers, remnants of the ancient culture of the days of DalamatiaĘ. With the passing millenniums, this group became thoroughly admixed with the Adamites to the north, but they never entirely lost their Nodite traditions."

"73:1.5 Shortly after the destruction of ĘDalamatia the followers of Nod became divided into three major groups. The central group remained in the immediate vicinity of their original home near the headwaters of the Persian Gulf. The eastern group migrated to the highland regions of Elam just east of the Euphrates valley. The western group was situated on the northeastern Syrian shores of the Mediterranean and in adjacent territory.

73:1.6 These Nodites had freely mated with the Sangik races and had left behind an able progeny. And some of the descendants of the rebellious Dalamatians subsequently joined Van and his loyal followers in the lands north of Mesopotamia. Here, in the vicinity of Lake Van and the southern Caspian Sea region, the Nodites mingled and mixed with the Amadonites, and they were numbered among the "mighty men of old."

73:1.7 Prior to the arrival of Adam and Eve these groups -- Nodites and Amadonites -- were the most advanced and cultured races on earth."

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