Orichalcum - brass or arsenic bronze ?

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
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Member # 1190}



Riven,
Your idea on orichalcum being a covering is very interesting, because all orichalcum objects which Plato describes - city walls, temple roofs, walls, pillars, floors - were perhaps covered with a thin layer of this valuable material, perhaps with exception of the orichalcum pillar on which were engraved the first laws given by Poseidon. I think it should be of massive material to be able to engrave it.

But in the row of order from the covering of the outer wall - copper - and that of the second wall - tin- it would not fit in, if the third covering would not be a still more precious metal than tin, but a resin layer.

A covering of amber laqueur, for instance, on a stone wall would not sparkle in a reddish colour ! Since the layer is thin, it would only make the grey colour of the stone a little more shiny. When the inner wall was made only from red stones, it is possible that it could sparkle in the sun due to a resin covering. But again we must ask: how long would it sparkle in the sun? The sun would very soon disintegtrate the resin surface and leave a weather-beaten layer which makes the stone wall more unsigthly than without any covering. In this way, a covering from brass would be still better, when it was thoroughly polished every three months.

You asked if it wouldn´t be foolish to cover a floor with a cold metal. This floor was not in a dwelling house where they perhaps were sitting on the floor, but in a temple. May be they worshipped their god Poseidon standing and not laying or kneeling.

I have seen myself a floor from metal in a famous old church in Wladimir/Russia. The whole floor was covered with ornamented plates of cast iron. Perhaps this floor was more wear resistant than a floor of stone plates, say from relatively soft marble.

Gold leaf could have been fixed on stone surfaces by an oil glue, as it is done today.
But since no other metal is as ductile as gold, it is not possible to hammer other metals to likewise thin leaves as gold. However it is possible to make from copper, tin and arsenic bronze relatively thin sheets of say 0,1 mm thickness or less. And how to fix those thin sheets on walls or pillars? By nailing or by rabbetting, as it is done still today with metal sheets covering buildings or roofs.

You mentioned an Etruscan script from 900 BC with the word "orichalcum" included. I should like to hear more about this.

[Tina Walter]

atalante

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Elys and Georgeos,
At the beginning of this thread, you gave us a nice extract from Georgeos's book. Your post discussed, among many other things, the fact that Pliny wrote about orichalcum being an ore rather than an alloy.

In this post I want to comment farther on those observations of Pliny.

There is an intriguing passage from the Roman author Pliny (23AD-79AD) which contains several clues about the primary understanding of "orichalc" among classical Greek and Roman peoples.

"Aes" is the Latin word which is equivalent to the Greek word "chalkos". In both cases, the word designates a variety of alloys in which the dominant metal is copper. Ancient Greeks used the phrase "chalkos Kuprios" to designate "copper from Cyprus".

Later in this post I will give a link, citing Pliny, which states that Romans believed there were 3 basic ores for all the copper-alloys (=aes=chalkos) in the classical world.

One of Pliny's "3 ores" was "chacitis"; most analysts equate this to the modern mineral named chalcosite, a black-colored sulfide of copper, Moreover the experts consider this as a reference the ore material which has been mined and smelted on Cyprus beginning around 1700 BC, and which became the dominant sorce of copper for both classical Greece and Rome.

The second of Pliny's ores was named "cadmia". This describes the zinc-rich "calamine" soil (from the Cadmean region of Greece) which Roman Empire had learned to roast alongside copper, thus producing "brass". http://chemistry.allinfoabout.com/periodic/cd.html

This leaves the 3rd (and final) ore of copper, which Pliny called "aurichalcum or orichalcum". It seems rather clear that Pliny wanted "orichalcum" to describe all the other forms of copper ores, EXCEPT THE SULFIDE ORES OF CYPRUS.

Here is an excellent link which explains Pliny's 3 ores of copper (and various other shades of meaning for chalcos, =aes, in antiquity). http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Aes.html


I also want to point out an slightly earlier, and presumably less perfect, Roman view of the relationship between calamine ore and orichalcum. This view is found in the writings of the Roman author Strabo (63BC-24AD), who pointed out that calamine ores exist both at Troas near ancient Troy (and near Tmolus, which was a mountain and a river in the kingdom of legendary King Midas). This probably supports Georgeos's comment that brass objects were found in the tomb of King Midas of Asia Minor (800 BC). But I urge readers to understand that Strabo is NOT PROVING that orichalcum is brass. The relevant passage in Strabo reads like
a confused alchemistry, and merely implies that SOME people think of calamine ore as an example of orichalcum/aurichalcum.

quote from: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Metallum.html
One point not yet noticed is the question, whether the ancients possessed a knowledge of zinc. That they rarely if ever used it as an alloy of copper is proved by the analysis of existing specimens of their bronze [Aes]; but that they were absolutely ignorant of it can easily be disproved. One of the most important passages on the subject is in Strabo (xiii. p610), who says that "in the neighbourhood of Andeira (in the Troas) there is a certain stone which, on being burnt, becomes iron; then, on being smelted with a certain earth, it distils yeuda/rguroj, and with the addition of copper it becomes what is called kra=ma (which may mean either an alloy in general, or a particular kind of alloy), which some call o)rei/xalkoj; and yeuda/rguroj is also found about Tmolus." In all probability the stone here mentioned is the common zinc ore called calamine, which Pliny and other writers call cadmium. If so, yeuda/rguroj must be metallic zinc, and o)rei/xalkoj brass. For a further discussion of this subject, into which we have not space to enter, the reader is referred to Beckmann, vol. ii pp32, &c.
endquote

[Tina Walter]

Akata



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Member # 1492}

Orichalcum is very rare ore,and is only found on azores,acient capital of atlantean
empire,is very rare of terra/earth
salamos where are you eric wright
atlantean brother we nead you hear
the survivors of avilion still live
so i live,the son of akarius
the prince of atlantean empire
to your service friends
dont much remians of my memories of
past cyle of above and belove if you
ask somethink it will be hard to answer
only time will tell when time comes
that the atlantis will rise

this is a waring,draco beware of
the atlantean nations survivors of
atlantean empire,ashtar commander
is my friend and teacher in this
world,the world will be enlighted
and you the dark brotherhood cant
stop the white brotherhood never
i am there champion of light...

------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantien Race---
---And For our Noble--
-----Ensters-----------
-AkatariusTheWiseOne--

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
_{Member
Member # 1190}



atalante,
The name "copper" must not derive from the name of the island Cyprus, but most probably it was the other way round: Cyprus was known as the copper island, when in the 18th century BC, after people were able to work also the sulfidic copper ores, it became a rich source of this important metal (as you
have already mentioned in a previous post).

The Roman writers you have cited must not necessarily have known all about the past, two millenia earlier. For them the most copper came from Cyprus, and therefore they may have thought that the name of this metal could have derived from the name of this island. As it is written in one of your last links, the Greeks named the copper "chalkos" after the town of Chalcis in Euboea, where a copper mine existed.

The use of copper is more than 5000 years older than the copper mining in Cyprus! Also in the time before, there must have existed a name for this important metal.
Some time ago I have read, that the Latin word "cuprum" derived from the Indoeuropean word "cop" (cup). The pure copper nuggets, found in rivers, were malleable. By hammering with a round stone (chasing) they could be formed to a bowl or cup, and so the metal got the name from the first objects which could be made from it.

In the second post of this thread, made by Elys, was pointed to the link of the British Museum: http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/science/whatsnew/sr-earliest%20brass.htm
It is written there, that brass was made in old times, up to 150 years ago, by melting copper in a crucible, adding some roasted zinc ore and charcoal and covering the crucible with a lid (otherwise the volatile zinc would escape). The charcoal reduced the ore to metallic zinc, which was then dissolving in the liquid copper. "This process seems to have begun in the first half of the first millenium BC somewhere in the Near or Middle East, and over the next few centuries there are occasional references to OREICHALKOS, >mountain copper< or latterly >golden copper<, in the Greek literature of those times".

The scientists of the British Museum believe that the process of making brass was detected between 1000 and 500 BC. According to Georgeos the first brass samples were found in the Gordian Tomb in Phrygia/Anatolia and in the Joya Tomb in Huelva, Spain, from the 8th and 7th century BC. Up to now we have no proof that brass was known in earlier times, but we cannot exclude it.

However, the aforementioned process is a complicated one. Plato told, that orichalcum was dug out of the earth in many places, and not that it was produced by mixing copper with something else.

There exists a certain mineral called "Aurichalcite" containing both zinc and copper (the name was given in our days, remembering the Roman "aurichalcum").
http://www.mindat.org/min-422.html
But the zinc to copper ratio in this mineral is 5:2, whereas in brass the ratio is about 1:3 . The link says that Aurichalcite is found in Siberia and Arizona. I do not know if this mineral can also be found in regions, where we seek Atlantis, and if it actually can be used to make brass from it.

There are still many open questions, and before they are answered we cannot decide, if brass (named "aurichalcum" in Roman times, must frequently be polished to sparkle) or the surface treated arsenic bronze with golden tarnish (complicated unknown process to produce it) would be the better candidate for Plato´s ORICHALCUM.

[Tina Walter]

atalante

_{Member
Member # 1452}

Ulf,
You are correct in pointing out that the Greek myths claimed copper had been discovered and mined first in northern Greece, at a location called Chalcis (Euboea).

But the Greek myths are notorious for claiming that everything in prehistory was done by Greeks. My impression is that the myths are using the city name Chalcis in a symbolic way -- letting the northeast corner of Greece symbolize the places, (actually beyond the borders of Greece) where the first copper had been picked out of streambeds, and/or mined, since 7000 BC: both north of Greece (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania) and east of Greece (Turkey, Catal Huyuk etc.).

My research indicates that there is no physical evidence of ancient mines around Chalcis, however its citizens fabricated a wide variety of copper items which were sold by ships of Corinth and Samos. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcis


Many people derive the Chalcis city name from a Phoenician word for shellfish (khalkis), from which purple dye was being obtained at the city of Chalcis. http://www.gtp.gr/LocPage.asp?id=61412

When the Sea Peoples grabbed control of BOTH Cyprus and Crete (ca 1220-1175 BC), they choked off the flow of copper to most regions in the eastern Mediterranean Sea.

During 1700-1550 BC, the Hyksos seized the Nile delta region, thereby blockading the flow of copper from Cyprus into Egypt. To overcome that blocade, the 18th Dynasty of Egypt had to reopen ancient malachite copper mines in the Sinai. But after the Hyksos had been driven out of Egypt, the pharoahs gave only moderate priority to maintaining their Sinai copper mines, because Egypt once again imported copper from Cyprus. Egypt gave its Sinai mines to a desert people called Midianites before the era of the Sea Peoples.

Based on both of these circumstances (1700-1550 BC, and 1220-1175 BC), it is logical to assume that Cyprus normally sold copper at prices which made nearly all "mainland" copper mines uneconomical. If the mainland copper mines had closed, that could explain why Homer and Plato considered orichalcum to be "now only a name, but previously more than a name".

By the way, Ulf, if you like comparative analysis, I think you may like this link. Here is a word study about the names of metals in many langages. This link proposes that the syllable "per" (in copper) was the orignal name for any metal, and might have referred to a smelting process (cf. The Latvian word VAR means to smelt.) http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi139.htm

[Tina Walter]

rockessence



_{Member
Member # 1839}

Atalante,Ulf,
A couple of points that might prove useful:

"the Greek myths claimed copper been discovered and mined first in northern Greece, at a location called Chalcis (Euboea)"

Much of what is in the Greek myths now was also in the myths at the time you refer to. I suggest that the location of Chalcis is actually in the Baltic/Scandinavian area as proposed by Felice Vinci in his book HOMER IN THE BALTIC, and that the memory of the old original northern location of Chalcis was transferred south after migration, but the memory of migration was lost.

Next: "When the Sea Peoples grabbed control of BOTH Cyprus and Crete (ca 1220-1175 BC), they choked off the flow of copper to most regions in the eastern Mediterranean Sea."

From Ancient American Sept/Oct 1993 WHO MINED AMERICAN COPPER 5,OOO YEARS AGO? by Betty Sodders, I quote and paraphrase:

"The Copper Culture people of Michigan's Isle Royale and mainland Keweenaw Peninsula present an enigma of the first order....Over 5,000 mined prehistoric copper pits on Isle Royale alone, not including thousands more on the mainland...Dating techniques have established that it beagan around 3000BC, suddenly abandoning the pits 1,800 years later.....They appeared to have laid down their tools and simply vanished from the face of the earth.
Even before the turn of the 20th century the Copper Culture story had appeared in some 300 published stories with the miners variously identified as Egyprians, Phoenicians, Aztecs, Toltecs, Brazialians, Eskimos, Mongolians, Russians or Norse. More recent speculation...In view of the phenomenal sailing prowess of 10th century Vikings, a Norse presence is by no means unlikely, particularly given the Scandinavian interest in metallurgy....
At Peterborough, Ontario, etched in stone are pictographs which depict Norse ships and copper ingots called oxhydes. Professor Fell describes oxhydes in "America BC":"American mound sites have yeilded numbers of copper tablets shaped like the hide of an animal...However in 1896, in Cyprus and subsequently in many Mediterranean excavations, corresponding Bronze Age copper objects, recognized now as ingots used in international currency, have been found. The American examples found at the Peterborough petroglyph site indicate an international trading system extended to the Atlantic States."
Copper oxhydes have been found in shipwrecks dating back to Bronze Age sailing vessels from the 13th Cen. BC. Yet we know that the upper peninsula mines HAD ALREADY BEEN IN OPERATION FOR 1,800 YEARS. Interestingly, the Egyptians massively used copper 9,000 years ago, but their sources were never actually confirmed. A wall-painting in the Egyptian tomb of Rekmira depicts red-skinned men carrying oxhydes on on their shoulders to the tax collector. The copper ingots are exact duplicates of a specimen excavated near Lake Gogebic in Michigan."

I only want to add that I will search for another issue of Ancient American which also had an article on this subject which stated information about the unbelievably massive tonnage removed from these mines.
www.ancientamerican.com

Lochmodor

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Reading that Nickel ores usually have copper deposits too, wouldnt it be expected that a few ores containing mostly Copper could have a high content of Nickel?
Since i do not know much about metallurgy i want too ask.
how would a Copper alloy with a high Nickel content withstand corrosion? and would it have have a sligthly red colour?

 

 

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
_{Member
Member # 1190}



Lochmodor,
copper-nickel alloys have a red brown colour up to about 15% nickel content. With more nickel the colour becomes more and more silvery. In some countries copper-nickel alloys are used for "silver" coins.
These alloys are corrosion resistant. Copper-nickel with 10% nickel is frequently used in shipbuilding as resistant against sea water, and "fouling resistant", that means it prevents the deposition of sea plants and animals at the ships hull and in this way makes the ship faster.
However, these alloys will not sparkle like fire.

rockessence, Brig,

In this link I also found the theory about copper from the Upper Peninsula in Michigan being shipped to ancient Europe in the Bronze Age. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3457/diffcopper.htm
I think that there were contacts between America and Europe in this time. Especially when it is true that in America have been found copper ingots in the "oxhide" shape. This special shape cannot be accidently invented in two different places.
I know, Brig, that mainstream archeologists do not accept this theory today. But perhaps they have to accept it tomorrow.

atalante,

you provided a very interesting link about comparative studies of the names of the first metals in different languages. It would be necessary to study still more languages, especially the old ones. Perhaps respected rajesh as a language specialist can help us.

[Tina Walter]

rockessence



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Member # 1839}

Ulf,and others,
And we can accept it today! Our understanding these proposals as "fact" allow us to rethink much of what passes for "fact" on these pages. The same goes for understanding the Hyper-borean background to the mythology of the Mediterranean area....

Akata



_{Member
Member # 1492}

Orichalcum is not even bronze,is a rare metal found only on azores islands...

Lochmodor

_{New Member
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After my last post i found an article claiming that Atlantis was a island in a inland sea in Bolivia.
This article does also mention that Orichalcum was a Gold/Copper Alloy wich was naturally aviable in the mountains around this inland sea.
http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis/


Akata



_{Member
Member # 1492}

wrong


atalante

_{Member
Member # 1452}

Fayalite is the mineral which is named after the Azores. It has the same chemical components as the slag which rises to the top when copper is smelted.

http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/fayalite/fayalite.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Tina Walter]

atalante

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Member # 1452}

Plato has sketched out some Atlantean uses for metals. Most of those uses were for coverings.
Plato does not state that Atlanteans made any tools or weapons from metal. This is very preculiar. The impression I get from Plato is that this Atlantean place was a mining colony for generating metals, which the Atlanteans exported, thus acquiring "a large supply of imports" which were presumably the tools, etc.

In Critias 114E Plato states that "the land itself furnished the [necessities] of daily life. The grammar which Plato uses here implies that "metals/minerals" were the necessities of daily life. And these items included both the nugget ("solid") and the smeltable ("fusible") forms of minerals.

The upstream forests and villages which Plato mentions were supplying trees and charcoal for metal smelting operations. Wood products were floated downriver to the central community.

Crit. 114E „For because of their headship they had a large supply of imports from abroad, and the island itself furnished most of the requirements of daily life – metals, to begin with, both the hard kind and the fusible kind, which are extracted by mining, and also that kind which is now known only by name but was more than a name then, there being mines of it in many places of the island – I mean ORICHALCUM, which was the most precious of the metals then known, except gold.“
Crit.116B: „And they covered with brass, as though with a plaster, all the circumference of the wall which surrounded the outermost circle; and that of the inner one they coated with tin; and that which encompassed the acropolis itself with ORICHALCUM which sparkled like fire.“

Crit. 116D: „As to the interior (of the temple), they made the roof all of ivory in appearance, variegated with gold and silver and ORICHALCUM, and all the rest of the walls and pillars and floors they covered with ORICHALCUM.“

Crit. 119C: „But their authority over one another and their (the 10 kings) mutual relations were governed by the precepts of Poseidon, as handed down by them by the law and by the records inscribed by the first princes on a pillar of ORICHALCUM, which was placed within the temple of Poseidon in the centre of the island.“ , and after hunting a bull, „they led it up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of the pillar, raining down blood on the inscription.“

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
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Member # 1190}



atalante,
When the Atlanteans were mining ores and melting metals, it is self-evident that they were also making tools and weapons from it.
The first metal objects were made from nuggets of copper and gold, found by chance in the rivers. Later it was found that by heating some blue coloured stones with a charcoal fire it was possible to get the valuable copper nuggets intentionally. Mining and ore melting was done to cast the produced liquid metal into moulds for making daggers, arrow heads, axes and the like from it.
Mining cannot be separated from tool making.

When reading the "Critias" again I discovered, that the Atlanteans obviously loved the polishing of metal surfaces. Otherwise they would not have covered all the outside of Poseidon´s temple with silver. Without frequent polishing, silver looses its shiny look very soon and becomes grey and at least black. (another tarnish!).
When they were polishing fans, they could use brass as covering for their walls as well. A chance for oreichalcum being brass ?

Elys
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Member # 2020}


Deciphered the Mistery of the Oreichalcum and Metals of Atlantis!!
Dear Atlantologists Friends.

It is an honor us to be able to share with all you, the investigations and profits of scientific atlantologist Spanish Georgeos Diaz-Montexano.

As all know we published a part of the Georgeos Diaz's Book that spoke on the Oreichalcum.

Or we are finishing translating the other part of the extensive chapter on the Oreichalcum and the Metals of Atlantis and soon we will publish it in this Forum of AR.

Meanwhile we advanced that the discoveries that Georgeos Díaz has made and the conclusions who has arrived on the matter, are truely surprising! and once again allow to confirm that the Island or peninsula (Nêsos) of Atlantis was the same Peninsula of Iberia and perhaps part of Morocco Noroccidental.

The arguments that Georgeos Diaz presents are absolutely solid, scientific and very logical.

It will be much more difficult to deny his discoveries that to accept them.

It will be in our next message.

Warm greetings of Ely, Sâlvador Morales and Antonio Beltrán.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
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Spiritwalker,
Your quotes are showing that Anatolia seems to be the oldest minig area we are knowing today. But may be that tomorrow could be found another, far older mining spot in another part of the world. The archaelogy of old mines is just in the very beginning, for in the past people were mainly interested in treasures.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ely, Salvador and Antonio,
I am grateful that you will translate the report of Georgeos about his newest discoveries on the "orichalcum" problem. We are looking forward to your next post.

atalante

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Member # 1452}

Spiritwalker, Ulf,
I expect that the earliest metalworking region on earth, based on information collected up to 2004, was in a roughly triangular region bounded by Southern Sinai at the South corner, Catal Huyuk at the north-east, and Stara Zagora (Bulgaria) at the northwest.

Here is a link from the Institute of Archaeo-Metalurgy (Headquartered in London). The link points out that the oldest known copper smelting equipment has been found in the Sinai region, as reported around 1995. This announcement pushed back the oldest known date for copper smelting by roughly 1000 years.


quote from: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/iams/projects.htm
With the leading participation of Professor H. G. Bachmann (Institute of Archaeology, UCL and University of Frankfurt am Main) detailed metallurgical studies have been carried out on the Sinai finds by Israeli and IAMS scientists. This project has produced the first evidence of Late Pottery Neolithic copper smelting (6th millennium BC) near the mines of Southern Sinai, as well as of sophisticated copper production by the Pharaohs of the Old Kingdom (3rd millennium BC).

Following the First International Conference on Archaeo-Metallurgy in Cairo in 1995, initiated and sponsored by IAMS, the Egyptian Authorities decided to set up an Egyptian Centre of Archaeo-Metallurgical Research. As its core programme and starting project, systematic field research will be undertaken in the mining region of the Eastern Desert of Egypt, with members of IAMS as senior participants. Professors C. Tim Shaw and Beno Rothenberg took part on behalf of IAMS in a recent field survey of ancient gold, tin, copper and emerald mining sites in the region of Mersa Alam in order to select suitable sites for major systematic field research (cf. iams journal No. 20, 1998). Since very little of such excavations have previously been undertaken in Egypt, this research project is expected to provide vital information on the development in ancient Egypt of the sophisticated Egyptian metallurgy used by the Egyptian mining expeditions to Sinai and the Arabah (Timna) since Early Dynastic times. Systematic archaeo-metallurgical research in the field and in the museums of Egypt will add significally to a better understanding of Egypt's widespread and sophisticated use of metal for chariots, arms and jewelry, and contribute essential knowledge to the preservation of Egypt's cultural heritage.

South-western Britain, including Cornwall

Archaeo-metallurgical investigations in south-western Britain are on the agenda for a future major project with the emphasis on Bronze Age tin and copper mining. Surprisingly little archaeo-metallurgical work has been done in this region in spite of the fact that history books often speak about intensive ancient mining activities and Phoenician connection with the tin trade. There are, in fact, major mining sites worked until quite recent days - but they have never been investigated for early remains.

A fascinating aspect is the probable connection of the numerous megalithic burials, the dolmens, with the earliest mining of Western Europe. It is planned to follow the spread of megalithic burials and settlement sites and related trails of metallurgy along the Atlantic coast, from the Huelva Province to Britain. It is expected that these investigations will contribute essential new metallurgical and culture-historical information on the early phases of European history.

The Prehistory of Copper: Culture-historical and Process-technological Studies of the Earliest Steps in Metallurgy

Further excavations at Timna took place in the 1980s and early 1990s in order to complete and conclude the investigation of the mines and smelters of the south-western Arabah. Due to IAMS' insistence on detailed field evidence and sophisticated archaeo-metallurgical studies of the finds, it has recently been established that copper smelting in Timna had already started in the 6th millennium BC, in the Late Pottery Neolithic period, and not, as previously assumed, in the 5th millennium BC, the Chalcolithic period. This exciting discovery, extending the history of metallurgy by more than a thousand years, has triggered off a new IAMS research programme into the first, prehistoric steps towards fully-developed copper metallurgy (cf. iams journal No. 19, 1995).

Based on our excavation of four prehistoric key sites in the Arabah, it has been possible to identify an indigenous population in the arid desert region of the southern Levant, with their own kind and speed of metallurgical development from the 6th to the 3rd millennium BC. Very detailed scientific investigations of the smelting debris identified the decisive changes of process parameters and furnace technology through three thousand years of gradual metallurgical progress. These investigations created a new prehistory of copper, shown against the background of the excavated archaeological evidence of correlated culture changes and divisions. The results of these investigations provide a unique model applicable to metallurgical developments in many other parts of the ancient world.
endquote

Akata



_{Member
Member # 1492}

grrr i hate to be ignored as son of akarius
i will tell only one,orcicalcum is not bronze,is very rare on planet earth,only one era has it is azores my acient homeland
sunken under the atlantean sea...........
only the peaks of moutains are over the water today nown as azores islands......
NO BODY WILL IGnORE ME...........
the iam the chosen one born under
the star of hope.................

------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantean Race---
---And For our Noble--
-----Ensters-----------
-AkatariusTheWiseOne--


Elys
_{Member
Member # 2020}


Dear Atalante:
In your message you mention to Huelva, that is in Andalusia, Spain. But you do not clarify the situation, so that any reader who reads his message on megalithic burials and the metal mines of copper of the antiquity would not know where it is Huelva or some less still informed, could think that it is an archaeological deposit of Britain.

Huelva is in the same heart of the old kingdom of Tartessós or Atlantis, according to defends Georgeos Diaz-Montexano.

Warm greetings of Ely and Salvador Morales.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
_{Member
Member # 1190}



Spiritwalker,
you provided us with a lot of valuable links, thank you very much!
The remnants from the Nemrut Mountain are from a relatively late time, from 80 BC onwards. But it would be interesting to study the metal working of Troy and its area more in detail.

In the timetable you gave us, the first experiments with copper ores are mentioned about 7000 BC in Central Anatolia. (The first copper beads were certainly not made from ores, but from nuggets found in the nature).

2000 years later, about 5000 BC, copper ores were melted and copper was casted in several places of the old world: Palestine, Mesapotamia, the Balkans. From about 4500 BC is written: large amounts of copper ores mined in S-Bulgaria (Thracia). Use of copper in Italy and South Spain.

Were there already connections in this time between the eastern and the western parts of the Mediterranean, or did the art of copper mining develop independently at different places?

I have found the old "Orichalcum" thread still being in the net, except page 1 :
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000454-2.html
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[Tina Walter]

atalante

_{Member
Member # 1452}

That is a great discovery Ulf. I am glad that most of the old Orichalcum threads still exist.

Here is a nice summary of the earliest known progress in (copper) metalworking.
quote from: http://www.ancientsites.com/aw/Post/23262

Because of the unusual character and initial rarity of metals, they were first used for decoration, rather than utility, for ornaments rather than for knives.
The earliest known copper object is an oval-shapped malachite pendant from the Shanidar cave in Northeastern Iraq from the ninth millennium B.C.
From Cayonu there are hammered copper pins (8th millennium). From Ali Kosh there are beads of native copper (7th millenium).
From Catal Huyuk there are copper beads strung on garment finges carbon dated to the 6th millennium. These were hammered, which was the technique prior to pyrotechnology. The earliest piece of smelting slag comes from 5800 BC at Catal Huyuk. The earliest use of tin bronze was from the 4th millennium, as seen from finds at Tell Yehudiyah and Tepe Yahya, as shown by my old Prof. Lamberg-Karlovsky at Harvard.

Kathleen Kenyon in Archaeology in the Holy Land,(1979:61) writes of a troglodyte community at Tell Abu Matar who left behind abundant underground silos for grain storeage and were copperworkers. The preliminary reduction was carried out in open fireplaces, then the ore was smelted in specially constructed ovens, which were circular basins about 18 inches in diameter. The interior of these chambers was glazed from a mixture of melted metals, silica and residual matter. The ore was then refined in stone crucibles. This is the earliest evidence in the area of metal working. Since the nearest source of raw materials was 60 miles away, a regular trade must have existed. The tools and implements of the inhabitants of Tell Abu Matar are still of flint.
The copper objects, such as pins, rings, ornamental cyclinders, mace heads and handles had a cermonial rather than a warlike significance. The metal items were still regarded as far too precious for rough use.

A hoard of copper objects from Nahal Mishmar in Israel dates from 3430 BC (by carbon dating from associated hoard material. This is from the Chalcolithic Period.
There were 429 objects found in this hoard, mostly round objects, mace-heads, chisels, and crown-like cylinders with elaborately moulded birds on them.
It has been suggested that these were cult objects from a nearby shrine that were hidden when that shrine was attacked as noted by the destruction level from the same period.

Hauptmann and Weisgerberger wrote about ancient copper production in the area of Feinan, Khirbet en-Nahas, and Wadi-el-Jariye,in the Wadi Arabah, Jordan.

Elizabeth Friedman writes in Technological Style in Early Bronze Age Anatolia that Anatolian metallic ware is found in the Taurus mountains, an area rich in metal resources: silver, gold, copper, tin and iron. Moreover, a study of the central Taurus region revealed tunnel and pit mines, which on the evidence of pottery and radiocarbon dates, have been dated to the Early Bronze Age. Ore processing tools, crucible fragments and slag have found on various sites throughout the region. Furthermore, the tin mines at Kestel near Göltepe show clear evidence of being worked during the Early Bronze Age (Yener et al. 1991; Yener and Vandiver 1993).
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Here is a thoroughly different approach to ancient metals. The following link begins with a discussion the an early lead industry in Turkey (Catal Huyuk) and Iraq (Yarim Tepe ca 6500 BC. Note: there is no native lead; so metallurgy began by smelting galena (a lead ore), which glitters like white fire. First it was discovered that lead can be "melted" at 327 degrees C. A second step in metalurgy was probably to smelt azurite and malachite thus producing copper (at perhaps 750-800 degrees C). The next step in metalurgy seems to have been to extract silver from various lead-silver ores, by converting the lead to lead oxide at roughly 1100 degrees C. (Nearly all ancient silver artifacts from 3600 BC contain traces of lead.) Subsequently, and with a little higher temperature, smiths would have been able to melt copper (1083 degrees C); but to pour and and cast copper items requires heating the fluid to 1200 degrees C, so a copper metallurgy would have developed quickly after silver could be extracted from lead-silver ores.)

quote from: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-63448/mespre.htm

Metal ore is simply attractive and has aesthetic properties: they are rare and beautiful. Like other precious stones, metal ore has been found in the Neolithic far outside the sites where they naturally occur, also as burial gifts. They were desirable objects, who give the owner a higher status or who emphasize the current status of the owner. Particularly aesthetic are silver and gold.

Some ore contains unadulterated metals. The pure, native metal is in the form of little pieces or runs in veins through the stone. They are sometimes found on the earth surface and may be isolated by hammering.

Mining industry is known from the end of the Paleolithic and is a well developed industry in Neolithic times. Digging for minerals is a side activity in the flint stone industry.

Copper is soft and can be rolled and flattened. It is easier to shape than stone. Hammering can make copper harder than mild steel, but pushed to far it becomes brittle and it will eventually crack. If heated the original properties are restored and hammering may be continued.

Simple copper artifacts (pins) have been found in a Neolithic village in Turkey and dated shortly before 7000 BCE. The object is shaped by hammering. It is the earliest siting of this metal. There is yet no question of metallurgy: the treatment of metals by melting, smelting, casting or alloying. The earliest findings of molted copper dates back to the beginning of the 4th millennium and become more numerous to the end of the 4th millennium.


Metallurgy:

The melting point of pure copper is 1083 degree C, but to remove stone and slag a temperature of 1200 is needed. Chemically bound copper is also found in ores. It is green or black and doesn't look like a metal. To make copper it should me heated to a temperature of 700-800 C mixed with wood or charcoal. The chemical process is called reduction and the production method smelting. The temperature in wood fire does not exceed 600-700 C. In special campfires the maximum attainable temperature is 800 C. Copper melting cannot have been discovered by accident in a campfire (`campfire hypothesis'). Larger temperatures require kilns and still larger temperatures (in the Iron age) can be made with a forced air stream (bellows). How was copper melting discovered? Many hypothesis exist. It is possible that the discovery of changing properties of copper with heating, higher and higher temperatures are tried. An other plausible theory starts with lead as the first metal to be melted and with silver as next intermediate step.

Lead: Lead has a melting point of only 327 degree Celsius. Lead ore (called galena) glitters metal like, but has to be roasted with wood or charcoal (reduced to lead) to get the metal. Native lead is not found in nature. All findings of pure lead thus indicate the process of melting. Lead beads have been found in Catal Hüyük in Turkey and dated to 6500 BCE. Other findings of lead in the 6th millennium are in Yarim Tepe (Irak). The findings of lead are thus almost three millennia earlier than that of copper. Ones confronted with the possibility of melted metals, the next steps are now at least intuitively better understood.

Silver: The next step must have been silver. Pure silver does occur in nature, but is rare. Most silver is obtained as byproducts, in particularly from lead ore. Silver comes with the melting of lead, while other products (like iron) remain in the slag. Silver may be extracted by oxidizing the lead with a hot air stream (at temperatures of 1100 degree). The lead compound becomes solid. Silver doesn't oxidize and is fluid. The process can be recognized by the remaining percentage of lead in silver. It is indeed attested in silver artifacts dated about 3600 BCE. One could even identify the lead-silver mines from the ratio of lead-isotopes, that are characteristic for each mine.

Bronze: Physical properties of metals change dramatically when mixed with even small amounts of other metals. Mixtures (alloys) of copper with other metals are called bronze. Several types exists, called Arsenic-bronze, tin-bronze etc. The melting point of the alloy is considerably lower than native copper and even more important: it may be cast from molds. The invention and spread of tin-bronze took place in historical times. The Archeological period is called the Bronze.
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rockessence



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Great stuff Atalante! I love this material...Somewhere in another thread Boreas wrote about the high temperatures achieved by the Aser in Ice-time. Wish I knew where it is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Tina Walter]

Ulf Richter
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Member # 1190}



atalante,
This is the first time that I heard that lead mining and melting is much older than copper mining. (6500 BC in Catal Hujuk /Anatolia and Yarim Tepe /Iraq). But it makes sense because the melting point of lead is so much lower than that of copper.

The found copper pins from Anatolia were certainly hammered from natural copper nuggets.

> The earliest use of tin bronze was from the 4th millennium, as seen from finds at Tell Yehudiyah and Tepe Yahya, <

Also this is a time much earlier than written in the most books.
Every day can a new find correct our theories.

[Tina Walter]

Absonite



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Member # 1766}

Ulf, Atalante,
remember this from the Urantia papers?

"81:3.4 The widespread use of metals was a feature of this era of the early industrial and trading cities. You have already found a bronze culture in Turkestan dating before 9000 B.C., and the Andites early learned to work in iron, gold, and copper, as well. But conditions were very different away from the more advanced centers of civilization. There were no distinct periods, such as the Stone, Bronze, and Iron Ages; all three existed at the same time in different localities."

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p081.htm


atalante

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Absonite,
Yes, I remember that commentary from the Urantia paper 81. It probably has some strengths and some weaknesses.
Here is a map of Turkestan, to help visualize what is being discussed.
http://www.hunmagyar.org/turk.html

Urantia seems to be postulating future discoveries that will bridge three streams of thought which, in the past, have revolved around ancient Turkestan.
1) Zoroaster and Zoroastrianism originated somewhere nearby at a very early date. (Rajesh calls Zoroastrianism an anti-God religon.)
2) A migration is known to have moved the Vedic peoples toward the southeast, and into northern India around 3000 BC.
3) Helena Blavatsky proposed that the Great White Brotherhood of (Indo-European) modern Tadjik and ancient Tocharian peoples had been very advanced during ancient times.

Obviously the Urantia explanation is much more coherent and rational than the ideas of Blatvatsky.

There is a metalurgical weakness in what Urantia is expecting. By this I mean that underground tin mines are rare, as contrasted to finding alluvial nuggets of tin ore (cassiterite) in stream beds. If there was a large ancient mine, then ruins of the smelting equipment and slag should still be visible.

On the whole, I agree with Urantia that some of the earliest metalworking is likely to have occurred in one (or more) places where several minerals occur close together.

But the prospects look bleak for the Urantian suggestion that archaelogists' so-called "copper age, or chalcolithic age" will soon become an obsolete way to characterize ancient societies.

Recent analysis of the Indo European languages suggests that the Tadzics, Baluchis, and Afghans all moved north and/or west, around 2500 BC, after splitting off from the older group of Indo-Europeans who had entered Kashmir India around 2900 BC.

Based on current research, there is only one Indo-European language group which might have existed around Turkestan at 9000 BC. A highly respected linguistic research paper by Gray and Atkinson, which was published in the magazine Nature during 2003 indicates that the Tocharian language group split off from the main body of Indo-European peoples around 7900 BC (followed by the Greco-Armenian group, who split off from the main body around 7300 BC).

An example of a culture which worked with many metals around 5000 BC is Metsamor, in Armenia. Metsamor was not as ancient as what is proposed in Urantia paper 81. And to me at least, it seems that Metsamoor is in a location which is substantially more likely (as contrasted to Turkestan) to have been near the world's original metallurgy superpower.

quote from: http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Azgaser/Metsamor.html
The earliest civilization that has been found in Armenia, and is believed to be the first in the world is the Metsamor Civilization, which is dating back to around 5,000 BCE. The ancient capital of the Metsamor kingdom is located on the area of 26 acres, which consists of a cyclopic stonewalls, citadel within them and a vast cosmic observatory. The fortress of Metsamor is further enhanced by a large series of oval shaped dwellings along with adjacent buildings and an underground tunnels.
The "heavenly" knowledge of metal processing thought to be received from the pre-deluvial "gods" of the ancients was the most sophisticated of its kind ever found to be of that time period. Metsamor was known to have processed a high-grade gold, copper, and various types of bronze, strychnine, manganese, zinc, mercury and iron. Metal goods made in the Metsamor were highly valued and widely known by its surrounding cultures, stretching out as far as Central Asia, Chine, India and Egypt.

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