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Jim Allen's Debate with Georgeos Diax-Montexano

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Desiree
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« on: June 10, 2008, 03:12:55 pm »

I thought this was interesting when I first read it.  It reall reflects the depths of Jim's understanding of Atlantis, and, of course, Georgeos' shameless & ceaseless attempts to promote his new translation!  Cheesy
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

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Desiree
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 03:13:48 pm »

Jim Allen
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Rate Member   posted 06-07-2008 01:01 AM                       
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Greetings to followers of the Atlantis Rising discussions forum, and in particular to those who follow any discussions pertaining to the location and nature of Atlantis itself.

I recently responded to a call from Smiley for anyone doing active (field) research into the Atlantis location to come forward, which is why I submitted my webpage
http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart1.htm so that readers could avail themselves of the latest findings pertaining to the site in Bolivia.

Of course it should have been expected that Georgeos Díaz-Montexano would weigh in with his usual vitriolic condemnation of any theory, discovery or proposal which does not agree with his own re-intrepretations.

We have to say re-interpretations because in any rational discussion of Plato’s texts, there must be a standard translation to which everyone can refer.

We already have translations by some of the world’s finest classical scholars, but Georgeos Díaz-Montexano finds it necessary to reject these and substitute his own translation in order to support his quote: “The Plato's Atlantis was a Ibero-Mauretanean empire” theory.

Personally, I prefer the translation by R.G. Bury published by L.O.E.B. Classical Library and sometimes refer also to the later translation by Sir Desmond Lee published by Penguin.

It follows that it is impossible for anyone to enter into any argument or discussion of Atlantis with Georgeos Díaz-Montexano for the simple reason as above stated, that he does not recognise the existing translations of Plato and is only willing to use his own translation and interpretations.

For the benefit of the readers I will attempt to correct some of the dis-information Georgeos Díaz-Montexano has already posted on this page regarding my theory.

First of all, Georgeos tells you “Allen of that his theory is completely unlikely, especially because virtually no respects in nothing the Plato's descriptions,”

On the contrary, all of Plato’s geographic description of Atlantis can be proven to correspond to the level plain called the Altiplano in Bolivia.

Unlike Georgeos speculations which can not be proven one way or another by the ordinary reader, all of the points put forward in favour of the Altiplano can be proven as published, verifiable facts, or the reader can always go there and see for themselves.

Georgeos continues, “We all know perfectly well that Plato never placed Atlantis in a place so distant, so many thousands of kms from the Pillars of Hercules and Gadeira”. Well, just how do we know this?

Next Georgeos says, “And we all know that Atlantis was not on top of a mountain plateau so high above sea level like is the Andes, but in a plain almost at sea level, why was covered by the floods and was submerged under the sea or under coastal marsh.”

How do you know it was “not on top of a mountain plateau so high above sea level as is the Andes”, after all, the translation by R.G Bury tells us “the whole region rose sheer out of the sea TO A GREAT HEIGHT while the translation by Sir Desmond Lee tells us, “To begin with the region as a whole was said to be high above the level of the sea, from which it rose precipitiously;”. I will even throw in for good measure the translation by Jowett “The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea”.

That seems clear enough for anyone who is prepared to accept what Plato actually wrote, that is, if we accept the academically published translations……

So, to continue from Georgeos “The theory of Mr. Allen, is undoubtedly one of the theories that more deviate from Plato's texts and from all the ancient texts that speak of Atlantis.” Wrong again, because all of Plato’s geographic points fit the Altiplano and nowhere else, for example, continuing with the same paragraph from Georgeos, Atlantis was “in a plain almost at sea level, which was covered by the floods and was submerged under the sea or under coastal marsh.” Correct, the Altiplano is a plain at the same level as the very large inland sea called Lake Poopo and is frequently even to this day covered by floods, and the volcanic island at Pampa Aullagas has been submerged by the sea meaning the inland sea of Lake Poopo and additionally in the wet season it is not possible to travel on the Altiplano because it turns into a boggy marsh.

So Georgeos “will not allow any lies, forgery or manipulation of the ancient texts, and what really is written in Greek in the Timaeus and Critias. It's the only thing I can not tolerate.” That’s a laugh, considering he is the one doing all the manipulation of the actual texts…….

So here are what Georgeos considers the “fundamental Pillars of the Mr. Allen's theory:

1. "Critias described a atlantisisland large continent... FALSE!”
So Atlantis according to Georgeos was not a large continent. And R.G. Bury was presumably wrong when he said Atlantis was “larger than Libya and Asia put together”. So here we have Georgeos rejecting the established translations of R.G. Bury, Sir Desmond Lee and Benjamin Jowett and substituting his own meaning or distortion.

There again we are told R.G. Bury got it wrong when he said
2. "he (Critias) said (Atlantis) existed at one time at "a distant point in the Atlantic Ocean" opposite the Strait of Gibraltar"... FALSE! In the Critias nor in Timaeus existed Greek words with the sense of 'distant point' nor 'opposite' in aplication to localization of Atlantis from 'Strait of Gibraltar', and of course, the word Ôkeanós (Ocean) is never mentioned.
and similarly Sir Desmond Lee was presumably wrong for saying Atlantis was “opposite” the Pillars of Hercules…….

So Georgeos rejects the fundamental part of Plato’s description that Atlantis was a huge land mass
3. "Plato is describing both a large continent and a small volcanic island of the same name"... FALSE! Plato never described 'a large continet', nor even a small continent; Plato only described a NHSOS, this is, an 'island/peninsula/delta/ or Insular Land'. Of course, that Plato never described to "a small volcanic island" with the name of Atlantis.
And the actual city metropolis which Plato described Poseidon as “having carved concentric rings of land and sea out of the centre of the island and having hot and cold springs with red, black and white stones”, all characteristics of volcanic islands, are not to Georgeos volcanic.

Then 4 is a repeat of 3….
4. "in the centre of the plain was the small volcanic island which later became the city of Atlantis".... FALSE! In Critias (nor in Timaeus) is not existed mention to "a small volcanic island".
As the city metropolis was surrounded by a concentric wall 50 stades from the sea, obviously the wall was to protect the city (which was built on a low mountain which Plato says had a central island 5 stades in diameter,) from the sea in times of flooding.


5. "Plato's description exactly fits South America because that is the continent which is opposite the Pillars of Hercules"... FALSE! because Plato never said that Atlantis was a Continent, and because Plato never said that Atlantis was opposite to Pillars of Hercules but προ (PRO) that in Old Greek is an Adv., prefix and prep. (w. gen.), meaning: `forth, forward, before, for' [A GREEK ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY, Robert S.P. BEEKES, 2003], always with sense of near, close, next...
5 again a repetition, because Georgeos dismisses “continent” and dismisses Lee’s translation of “opposite”

and 6, perhaps the best of all, beginning again with a repetition……
6. "Atlantis according to Plato was on a level plain which was "high above the level of the sea and surrounded by mountains"... FALSE! Mr. Allen here it uses the Mr. Lee's translation: "in the centre of the island near the sea was a plain which was enclosed by mountains, and the region as a whole was high above the level of the sea"... but in Bury's translation (more scientific and correct): "In the first place, then, according to the account, the whole region rose sheer out of the sea to a great height, BUT THE PART ABOUT THE CITY WAS ALL A SMOOTH PLAIN, enclosing it round about, and being itself encircled by mountains which stretched as far as to the sea"... Mr. Lee erase all this part, where said, in clear manner, that THE PART ABOUT THE CITY WAS ALL A SMOOTH PLAIN, ie, that THE PART ABOUT THE CITY was not above of the height Mountains.

Using quote “Mr Bury’s more scientific and correct translation” exactly correct, it describes the Altiplano perfectly, “all a smooth plain enclosing the city round about and being itself encircled by mountains which stretched as far as the sea” and it would be difficult to improve on Bury’s further description that the plain was “originally a quadrangle, rectilinear for the most part and elongated”, or as Lee put it more simply, “a long regular rectangle” or as Jowett says, “rectangular and oblong”.

Now, using the very latest satellite technology, it is possible to prove that a rectangular plain exists where Plato said it should “in the centre of the island” of South America and next to the sea, and it is possible to prove that a ruined volcanic island with concentric rings of land exists in the centre of this plain 50 stades from the inland sea just where Plato said it should.

But what exactly is Georgeos Díaz-Montexano proposing? That quote: “The Plato's Atlantis was a Ibero-Mauretanean empire.”

“In the Plato's Timaeus and Critias we can read that Atlantis were an Insular Land [Nhsos] that was located, exactly, “before the mouth” [pro tou stomatos] of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar Strait), in the Atlantic Pelagus [Atlantikous Pelagous] and that in addition had a province or region denominated Gadeira (Gades, Cadiz, Spain).”

“Iberia is the only Insular Land that has existed next to a Pillars of Hercules, and next to an Atlantic Pelagus, and that always has had a region with same name of Gadeira.”

Ok, what does he mean by “insular land”? Let’s look up “insular”. The Oxford ENGLISH dictionary says “insular” means “Of the nature of an island”.

So, are we to believe that Spain, Iberia was thought by Plato to be an island?

Or that Atlantis was a triangular area between Spain, the Azores and Morocco as shown on Georgeos’ website? If so, then where is the rectangular plain, and where is the island ringed with concentric water channels carved out of the rock? And where is the whole host of other features that Plato talked about instead of a continuous play and replay on words and interpretations of meanings of words to try and make it fit Spain and Morocco.

It is “South America” which is “insular i.e. of the nature of an island”, not an imaginary triangle between Spain, the Azores and Morocco and since modern geology tell us there is no sunken landmass around the Azores or in “the middle” of the Atlantic Ocean, we must look for another rational explanation such as the landmass “as large as Libya and Asia put together” is still there, namely South America, but the sunken part is the small, ringed island which sank into an inland sea in the location described by Plato, a rectangular smooth level plain in the centre of “the whole island”.

To answer a couple of other comments “No submerged island that even remotely suffices the Atlantis description has been found outside the Straits of Gibraltar anyway.” posted by Epsi, fact, the island volcano at Pampa Aullagas on the Bolivian Altiplano has been submerged and as it has concentric ringed channels it does match Plato’s description better than any other proposed site so far.

And for Sevens, quote ” Seems like a long way for the ancient Greeks to fight a war. They would not have the ability to sail into the lake in Bolivia and would have to go around South America to get there. Seems like a long way to go for a naval battle.”

Plato never said the ancient Greeks sailed to Atlantis but that the Atlanteans invaded the eastern Mediterranean. He claimed the story came from Egypt so was probably totally unaware as to the nature of South America and interpreted the story as he understood it, possibly adding on bits from other legends, like the war of the Sea Peoples which would account for the description of horses and chariots since the Sea Peoples also had a land army, although, incidentally, both elephants and horses existed in south America at the date Plato gave, see photo of skeleton of elephant (mastodon) on page four of my website and here is a link to evidence of horses in South America… http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s791004.htm

As to the bulls, like the “triremes” and measurement units given in Greek stades, Plato tells us himself he gave Greek names to make the story agreeable to his readers, and the description of how the animal had it’s throat cut in a ritual sacrifice is typical of the sacrifice of llamas which continues on the Altiplano to this day, even complete with throwing parts and libations onto the fire. Maybe Georgeos has a translation into ancient Greek for the word “llama”? If so, it shows the ancient Greeks had a knowledge of the “Americas” and if not, then neither had Plato……..

Other curious facts are that the first inhabitants were born as twins and even in the time of the later Aymara empire, some of the kingdoms on the Altiplano existed as twin kingdoms, Poseidon had five pairs of twin sons and Viracocha, the Andean god of the sea also had five pairs of twin sons, and perhaps most interesting of all, the “difficult to identify” metal – translated by Bury as a metal, the second most valuable then known - still exists there and is a natural alloy of gold and copper and just as Plato said, there were mines of it throughout the island……. And the region was also called by the Inca “Antisuyo” meaning “kingdom of the Antis” and Antis is an Inca word meaning copper……

As to whether or not it was a long way to go, it did not deter the Spanish once they learned of the wealth of gold and silver which awaited them in the Andes and remember, in Atlantis “the wealth they possessed was so great the like will never readily be seen again” and all the required metals, gold, silver, tin copper and orichalcum exist right there in mines all around the edge of the sea called lake Poopo, and are still mined to this very day. And it’s not necessary to sail around South America to get there. Any boat that sets sail from the Pillars of Hercules will be taken by the ocean currents south to the Canary Islands, then west as Columbus found to the island or if you prefer, continent, of Atlantis today known as South America……. For the return trip, the ocean currents continue in a clockwise circle and take the ships back to the Pillars of Hercules…

All the best,

Jim Allen
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
Desiree
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 03:15:19 pm »

 
docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 06-07-2008 08:37 AM                       
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Mr Allen, I do find in hard to believe that ten thousand chariots , with two horses on twelve hundred ships would have made it across the Atlantic, especially in Reed boats, you know the frist boat Ra never made in our century.

[ 06-07-2008, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: docyabut ]
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
Desiree
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 03:17:58 pm »

 
Jim Allen
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Rate Member   posted 06-07-2008 08:59 AM                       
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Dear Docyabut,

Perhaps you can't read, I never said that "ten thousand chariots , with two horses on twelve hundred ships would have made it across the Atlantic", I said that the geographic description fitted the Altiplano and that the description of the horses, chariots and ships probably applied to the war of the "Sea Peoples" who attacked Egypt in around 1200 BC...
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
Desiree
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 03:19:05 pm »

 
Georgeos Díaz-Montexano

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Rate Member   posted 06-07-2008 10:36 PM                       
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Mr Allen:

As I said, I do not think devote my time (which is increasingly rare) to try to convince to you, Mr. Allen, that your theory is completely absurd and unlikely! ...

Mr. Allen, you use the same absurd and false argument against my translations of the Greek Classic, the argument that you use against me, is an old fallacy, because I do not use any translation staff fabricated or falsified, according to my interests, and I just use the correct definitions that appear recorded in the most authoritative and scientific Lexicons and specialized Dictionaries on Old Classic Greek, and when I complained of translation errors, or interpretation erros, made by old translators as Jowett, Taylor and Bury, and others, I have always proved scientifically these errors, simply showing the palaeographical evidences, and I have done these demonstrations also in scientific circles, namely to experts, through conferences and scientific discussions, in several Universities from here, as well as the facts are very simple :

1. How can you, Mr Allen, show the Greek word êpeiros, which is translates as a continent, used in the text of the Timaeus and Critias for to describe to Atlantis? Of course you can not, simply because there does not exist!.

2. How can you, Mr Allen, show when or how in the Timaeus or Critias, Plato argues that Atlantis was a continent? Of course you can not show anything either, because Atlantis is always described only as a NHSOS, ie, an island or a peninsula.

3. I have discovered scientific evidence, ie, palaeographical proofs showing that the word used by Plato, MEIZÔN, which has been translated like 'bigger than' or 'greater than' Libya and Asia together, or assembled, also was used often to indicate, 'more powerful', 'stronger', 'more important or more grandiose', 'more relevant', even to indicate 'oldest and most ancient that' therefore, we can not know with total accuracy, which of these senses was used by Plato, or by Solon, but the context analysis shows that the meaning logical, coherent and correct, is the use of comparative MEIZÔN as, 'more powerful', 'more strong', 'more important, or more grandiose that', just as in the only two moments shown in this sequence, 25 in Timaeus and Critias in the 108, appears associated with the description of Atlantis as power, ie As a very powerful civilization, which invades and conquers all the peoples of Libya, Europe and Asia, through the interior of the Mediterranean.

In the only two times that appears MEIZÖN, is not associated with any description of the geographical size of Atlantis, which as I have demonstrated many times, always described as a NHSOS, ie, an island or a peninsula, and the Greeks did not know to any island or peninsula, which was higher than that of Pelops-nêsos peninsula, which is also called NHSOS, or that it was bigger than Anatolian or Italy or even than Iberia which also is called NHSOS by the Greeks, 'Y, 'island', by the Phoenicians, INSULA by the Romans, and Jazeera, 'island', by the Arabs, ie, which Iberia always was a Island for the ancients.

None of the Greek Solon's times, nor of Plato's times, could never call a continent (and less a continent as vast as it should be one greater than Libya and Asia all together or assembled), with a word like NHSOS. If Solon, Plato or, if used, and only the word to denote NHSOS Atlantis, then it is clear that Atlantis was a NHSOS, ie, an island or a peninsula, but in no case could be a continent of any size, nor even a small and tiny micro-continent. In addition, the Greek text of the Timaeus and Critias there is no word that can be translated as "together, or assembled, or both" as has been added in all the old familiar English translations, and also in some French and German. Is simply an invention!, a translation invented or false!, that does not correspond with the Greek texts. The text in Greek only to justify that Atlantis was 'bigger' or 'most powerful' that Asia, or that Libya, but it was not 'bigger' or 'most powerful' that both, or that the two continents together or collected. Simply there is nothing in the Greek text to justify this interpretation.

In any event, the biggest proof that I have found, a comment is precisely the greatest exegete and commentator Plato that has existed, Proclus, where he claims that Plato, in this same sentence in Timaeus 25, used to refer to MEIZÔN Atlantis in its meaning as grandiosity, as power, grandeur, as a force for progress and expansion or conquest, and not as big in size, from a geographical point of view of the country, or the NHSOS. Therefore, this recent discovery proves that my old thesis (which I have advocated for years, always being criticized by many other amateurs, not knowledgeable in the Old Classic, as you) about the translators who committed the mistake of translating MEIZÔN, as 'mayor, or larger than', in its sense of size, rather than translate the other way known and used this same Greek word, and that is 'more powerful', 'stronger', 'more important, or more grandiose', 'more relevant'. Therefore, since this is not a possibility more, or simply a likely hypothesis, but a fact, a hypothesis which is now confirmed through the oldest and most important expert in Plato's texts which has existed, Proclus himself. So it is no longer a mere hypothesis for now become a thesis or theory highly probable, and very convincingly; without doubt, the most likely and most convincing.

4. Plato used to locate Atlantis PRO regard to the Pillars of Hercules, and this Greek Word has always been used to indicate something that is precisely before, but very close, 'at the gates', 'to the sight'. None Greek never used PRO for to put something that was far, out of the sight, and if you believe otherwise, then simply you must explain, albeit with an example, as the Greeks used PRO for to describe something that was far, or remotely, outside from any vision possible, from the geographical point of reference used.

If Plato, or Solon, writes that Atlantis was just, "in/before of the mouth" (PRO TOU STOMATOS) of the Pillars of Hercules, even though PRO could translate, in this case, as 'in front', Atlantis then it could not be too far from Gibraltar. In fact, it could only be 'to the sight', because, I repeat, PRO has always been used to indicate something which is very close, 'to the doors', 'to the sight', from a geographical point. If Atlantis was far from Gibraltar, so far that was even beyond any possible vision from the center of the Gibraltar Strait, none Greek would have never used the word PRO, they had other words to describe anything that was far beyond any vision possible from Gibraltar, but Plato, or Solon, not even once used none of those other words to locate the ATLANTIS NHSOS... well you forget (conveniently), the specific reference to the region of Gadeira, which is fairly described as one of the ten parties, or provinces, which was divided into the ATLANTIS NHSOS, and that is precisely located very near to the Pillars of Hercules, and along the same Atlantic Pelagus. Clearly, the only place known throughout human history where there has been a region called Gadeira, along with some Pillars of Hercules, and along a Pelagus Atlantic, is the same place we know today as a province of Cadiz, in the Iberia NHSOS, and that in antiquity was precisely known by the ancient Greeks with the same name that uses Plato, ie, Gadeira, and by the Romans as Gadira, and then Gades.

Only with these 4 points we have discussed in this message, your theory is refuted as false, ie, it's easy to prove that your theory is false and absurd, only showing this evidences, nor that you nor anyone can refute or deny, because nor there is only one recognized expert in Old Greek Classic which is capable of saying the opposite of this that I am showing.

Nor even the authors that you use, as Joweet, Bury, or Mr Lêe, never dared to believe that PRO, could be interpreted as something that is far from Gibraltar, as far as South America, or even North America. North America or South America might only be the continent which is described after passing Atlantis, and after the 'other islands' (ALLAS NHSOUS), in front (katantikrous) of those other islands, and surrounding to whole sea (would be the Atlantic), but there is no doubt that Atlantis is located "in/before of the mouth (PRO TOU STOMATOS) of the Pillars of Hercules", there are even those who believe (as Mr Mike and Mr Nika) that would be within the Pillars Hercules, on the Mediterranean, just by reading PRO, which also can refer to something that is close to Gibraltar, a part of the Mediterranean, or for that portion of Atlantic, although certainly is cleared by Plato himself, to say that Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Pelagus.

Moreover, it is absolutely false that Oreikhalkós, or orichalcus, is an alloy of gold and copper. The only word in Greek means "copper of mountain" Orei, 'mountain', and Khalkós, 'copper', and the few that there are testimonies of Classical Antiquity, say it was a sort of brass or an alloy of copper and zinc, or copper and silver, or copper and lead, but what really matters is that the only name means "copper of mountain", and Plato himself (or Solon), says that was mined naturally, confirming that no was an alloy artificial, but a kind of copper metal, a variety of copper, abundant in Atlantis, and that is precisely the most abundant mineral in the mountains of Andalusia or kingdom of Tartessos, which were already the most famous copper mines, gold, silver and lead mines throughout the West, in Classical Antiquity. Saying that the oreikhalkós Atlantis was an alloy of gold and copper is a mere speculation without any foundation, in any case, if we have to assume that was an alloy, then it is preferable to accept the testimony of other ancient authors who claimed it was a alloy of copper and lead (pseudoargüros) or zinc, ie, a type of brass. But as I am always very faithful to the texts, because I prefer the one that says dialogue Critias, ie, that it was simply a kind of natural or native copper, ie, a "copper of mountain".

About their disqualifications toward me or toward my knowledges, I do not think respond ... You have the right to think of myself what you would seem more appropriate for you... It is a habit well known that all supporters of other theories, always disqualify to me (or insult to me), or try to discredit to me and my knowledges… If you can not destroy the arguments and evidences, then trying to destroy to the person, ie, to the author... However, we will see who will tell you later, when you see the largest and most prestigious scholars and experts at Old Classic Greek confirming my translations and revisions of the old errors of translation and interpretation, which just you, and all others defenders from the other theories used...

For the next year will be released - first in USA -, a documentary about my theories and researchs, which leave the biggest experts of the largest universities in the world, confirming in more than 90%, my palaeographical, lexicographical and philological discoveries and revisions of the old errors of translation and interpretation of the Plato's texts like Timaeus and Critias, which unfortunately still prevailed among the amateurs, and researchers do not know enough Old Classic Greek, and that like you, still confident his entire theory, and conclusions, to old translations, which currently are already largely overcome.

[ 06-07-2008, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Georgeos Díaz-Montexano ]

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Kind Regards,
Georgeos Díaz-Montexano
Scientific Atlantology International Society (SAIS)
http://www.GeorgeosDiazMontexano.com/

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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
Desiree
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 03:19:53 pm »

Georgeos Díaz-Montexano

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Rate Member   posted 06-07-2008 11:55 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by docyabut:
If ever this story of Plato`s was true, that was recorded in 600bc, one has to looked for great empire that excisted in the west next to Gaderia, not way out in the Atlantic or anywhere else.
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Dear Docyabut: Is correct! can not go out and look for an Atlantis beyond of the Pillars of Hercules and Gadeira, let alone in places so distant from Gibraltar as North America or South America...

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Kind Regards,
Georgeos Díaz-Montexano
Scientific Atlantology International Society (SAIS)
http://www.GeorgeosDiazMontexano.com/

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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2008, 03:20:59 pm »

 
Jim Allen
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Rate Member   posted 06-08-2008 03:50 AM                       
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Hello Georgeos,

I thank you for your detailed explanations, I see that as usual you have a lot of words, but little evidence.

I don’t think anyone needs to prove that Plato said or did not say “continent”. In any case of translation, modern or ancient, the translator very rarely translates word for word the original text, because it becomes unreadable in the language into which it is being translated, instead the translator usually attempts to give in the new language, the sense of what was originally intended.

If NHSOS means island or peninsula, then that’s fine regarding South America because I suppose that with it’s little attachment of land joining it to North America, that makes it more of a peninsula than an island, which is what peninsula means – “almost an island”.

In fact, I did look forward to some of your alternative translations, because anything that sheds new light on this old subject, or even provokes new thoughts on this old subject, is welcome.

Since the story came from Egypt and thence to Athens, we would have to hope that the Egyptians also got their translations from the original Atlantean language correct, before it was also translated into Greek…..

In the end, if you wish to use alternative translations to the already published ones, then the logical and fair thing to do would be to get the experts at the Athens conference to provide a translation acceptable to them, a new translation, perhaps in consultation with yourself or other experts they consider appropriate. Nothing could be fairer than that, could it?

Once their independent translation is published, we can all use that one….

Orichalcum, well all the metals you quote are abundant in the area I mentioned of Bolivia, and it occurs as a natural metal in the ground, Plato said it was the second most valuable metal then known after gold. Many of the Spanish conquistados were disappointed to find that when they melted down their ”golden” objects, they turned out to be the Andean metal called “tumbaga” – the alloy of gold and copper and much more likely to be orichalcum than copper and lead, or brass….. So yes, it is speculation but a better speculation than the alternatives….

Anyway, not to bore the readers further, if Atlantis were Spain, then show the level rectangular shaped plain enclosed by mountains and the remains of the concentric ring channels which Plato mentioned, I note you quote two sites in Spain as having concentric ringed water features, in Marinaleda and Jaen, but as usual, nothing can be seen on the satellite images which I have checked http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/jaenmarinaleda.htm

Plato himself may have believed that Atlantis was sunk immediately in front of the Pillars of Hecules since he says the barrier of mud prevented ships from sailing westwards, but he had no first hand knowledge of Atlantis and passed on the story the way he believed or wanted it to be, a huge power capable of providing an appropriate enemy for ancient Athens. That was his stated purpose in the Atlantis tale. So after the geographic detail, we have all the description of the army etc and the navy, which is the same size as the Greek navy sent against Troy, suggesting this part of the story was borrowed from somewhere else.

In the end we have to find a solution, and a location, that makes sense and corresponds to the things he actually said, particularly a geographic location and Spain certainly is not that……

All the best ,

Jim Allen
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2008, 03:24:05 pm »

docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 06-08-2008 09:15 AM                       
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Jim in your pictures I don`t really see a canel that ran into a sea from the mountains, the city must have laid in a river delta to be such a great harbor.
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2008, 03:24:35 pm »

Jim Allen
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Rate Member   posted 06-08-2008 10:14 AM                       
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Dear Georgeos,

Your statements are so absurd; anyone can pick up a relief atlas and see for themselves that the region you describe around the Guadalquivir river is just a small TRIANGULAR river delta measuring some 90kms by 70kms.

3000 stades on the other hand would be roughly the distance between cabo st Vincent in Portugal to the west, and the sierra Nevada east of Granada in the east and from Gibraltar in the south to Caceres in Extremadura, in other words about one third to one quarter of the size of the entire Iberian Peninsula and given the numerous mountains that exist throughout the entire region could not in any way be described as a rectangular plain, smooth and level.

And although R.G. Bury thought of Orichalcum as perhaps “mountain copper – a hard metal to identify” copper itself is hardly going to be the second most valuable metal then known and as to the famous gold, silver and lead mines you claim for the mountains of Andalusia, I never previously heard that the deposits of silver or gold in Andalucia were so vast that they used them to plate the city walls, nor that the ancient Iberians made statues of gold of all their ancestors, in fact, if they had so much gold and silver in Andalucia, why was it necessary for the Spaniards to sail over to the Andes (a country where they did plate the walls in gold and silver and did have statues in gold of all their ancestors) and steal all their gold and silver?

All the best, Jim Allen
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2008, 03:25:12 pm »

Jim Allen
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Dear Docyabut,

On the following page you can see a channel which runs past the site at Pampa Aullagas and discharges into the sea, five miles away. The photo is titled Oblique satellite image showing the volcanic island at Pampa Aullagas in the dry season.

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart2.htm

Further up the page you can also see a satellite photo of the remains of a canal about 200 feet wide which used to discharge into the sea called lago UruUru which is the northern end of Lake Poopo.

All the best,
Jim Allen
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2008, 03:26:06 pm »

Jim Allen
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Dear Docyabut,

I have just sent up some additional satellite images of a section of 200ft wide canal which discharged into lake UruUru which is part of lake Poopo, i.e., the sea, on this page

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/canaltosea.htm

All the best,

Jim Allen
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2008, 05:13:33 pm »

I thought Jim gave a very good explanation of his theory and also brought up some good points about Plato and Atlantology in general.  I still believe that Atlantis was in the Atlantic, but I find it constuctive to listen to alternative viewpoints.
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2008, 12:19:00 am »

It's nice to know that Jim Allen has done his homework.  Too often an Atlantis researcher comes up with a pet theory that doesn't bear any resemblance to Plato's work - Georgeos, for instance.  He seems to be making it all up to suit his interests.
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The Lamb of God, or Lion of Judah, opens the first four of the seven seals, which summons forth four beings that ride out on white, red, black, and pale horses:  Conquest, War, Famine, and Death.
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2008, 04:57:26 am »

The only place in the English-speaking world where Georgeos is not considered a joke is at Atlantis Rising, where he still has a couple of die-hard followers.
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2008, 01:12:52 pm »

You hear that?

YOU SUCK, GEORGEOS!!!  Get a life, preferably one that does not involve pitching your lame ass theories all over the internet.  Smiley
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