Atlantis Online

the Dawn of Civilization => Africa, the Cradle of Life => Topic started by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 10:58:05 pm



Title: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 10:58:05 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-30-2004 10:02 AM                   
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Plato wrote in his Timaeus and Critias, that the 10 kings of Atlantis ruled over Libya inside the Columns of Heracles as far as Egypt.
Egyptian inscriptions are frequently mentioning Libya, mostly under hostile circumstances.
Fights against the Libyans are mentioned from early times, long before the Sea Peoples´ war in the time of Rameses III, where the “Libu” were counted as one nation among the “Sea Peoples”

About 2900 BC : King Scorpion performed a victorious military campaign against the Libyans.

About 2600 BC : Another successful campaign against Libya took place under pharaoh Snofru

About 2470 BC : Pharaoh Sahure sent the Egyptian fleet against Libya and won the battle

About 1960 BC : Campaign of an Egyptian army against Libya under pharaoh Sesostris

About 1335 BC : An attack of Libyan warriors into the Nile delta region was beaten off by pharaoh Rameses II

About 1305 BC : Egyptian campaign against Libya

About 1230 BC : Egypteans drove out the Libyans from the Nile delta under pharaoh Merenptah

About 1228 BC : Libyans force their way into the Nile delta and are settling there

About 1193 BC : Rameses III defeats the Libyans in the Nile delta

About 1189 BC : Egyptian fleet under Rameses III defeats a fleet of the Sea Peoples

About 1187 BC : Egyptian army beats off an attack of the Libyans

1085 – 950 BC : Pharaohs are dependent from Libyan mercenaries

950 – 730 BC : Libyan kings rule in Egypt as the 22th dynasty

It seems that the Libyans played for more than 2000 years a very important role in the Mediterranean. The Egyptian inscriptions are naturally containing only their own victories and not the battles won by the Libyans.

What can we deduce from this for our Atlantis problem?



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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:01:58 pm
atalante
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Ulf,
Your list of Egyptian conflicts with the Libyans contains a very good starting point.
According to many modern scholars, the first naval BATTLE in history took place ca 1175 BC when Ramses III defeated the Pelestim.

However, your list describes an entirely different viewpoint for the first naval battle. You show a sea battle ca 2470 BC between the Libyans and Egyptians.

Herodotus agrees with this notion of an ancient naval power which had its homebase in Libya.

Here is what Herodotus tells us about the origin of the Greek pantheon, especially Poseidon/Neptune.

One and only one god came from the Libyans. That is Poseidon/Neptune. In fact, the ONLY country which worshipped Poseidon in ancient times was Libya (at least according to Herodotus).

A handful of female goddesses came from the Pelasgians: Juno, Hestia, Themis, the Graces and the Nereids.

The Dioscuri twins also came from the Pelasgians.

And all the other Greek Gods came from Egypt (at least that is what Herodotus claimed).

quote from: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1314/Lesson1.html
"Almost all the names of the gods came into Greece from Egypt. My inquiries prove that they were all derived from a foreign source, and my opinion is that Egypt furnished the greater number. For with the exception of Neptune and the Dioscuri, whom I mentioned above, and Juno, Vesta, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids, the other gods have been known from time immemorial in Egypt. This I assert on the authority of the Egyptians themselves. The gods, with whose names they profess themselves unacquainted, the Greeks received, I believe, from the Pelasgi, except Neptune. Of him they got their knowledge from the Libyans, by whom he has been always honoured, and who were anciently the only people that had a god of the name. The Egyptians differ from the Greeks also in paying no divine honours to heroes.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 08-30-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:02:41 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-30-2004 12:45 PM                   
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atalante,
Unfortunately I do not know more about the military naval expedition in 2470 BC. I found this point in the book "Peter´s Synchronoptical World History", edited 2001 in Munich/ Germany, where all known historical dates are collected in their chronological order of events, but without mentioning the respective source.

But it is certainly not true, that the Libyans were only uncultivated tribes of shepherds.


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:03:09 pm
Riven

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  posted 08-31-2004 04:39 AM                   
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The Vision is Yours.
What we have shown you all.

Atalante and myself that is.

Atlantis Continental Island
The Egyptian Secrets
Lake Tritonis
Atalantes/Aterians
Cyrene
Atranto
Araklum
Very early Sea battles.
Kings,Queens and in betweens.
Pharaohs,Sparrows and Falcons.

Think of the Egyptian Heiroglyph for Atlantis and you will see the balance of the scales.

2 Falcons facing west
1 lion facing west
2 half suns
1 water symbol
1 reed
1 Crook

It all adds upto Life.

Libya played a very important role with Atlantis where Thoth gathered wisdom and Atlas/Neptune established the last Atlantean stronghold.

If you would like to see the Glyph;
http://www.mts.net/~perasa/

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-31-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:03:48 pm
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, ... and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia."

Out of the Atlantic Ocean going east and conquering parts of Libya and as far as Italy."
That puts Atlantis in the Atlantic.





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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:04:27 pm
Absonite

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  posted 08-31-2004 06:55 AM                   
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1) Located in the Atlantic Ocean
Plato was very specific on the fact that Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean.


Indeed, this ocean took this name because it was deemed the "Ocean of the Atlanteans". Hence, Mediterranean locations such as Troy, Crete (Thera), Carthage, the Bosphorus, etc., automatically disqualify as the site of Atlantis.

However, one should carefully recall that what the ancients called by the name of Atlantic Ocean, or others such as Outer Ocean, Kronius Oceanus, Mare Magnum, Mare Oceanum, etc., was not the same one we now address by that name. As we discuss in detail elsewhere, the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean. This difference in nomenclature is essential, for it ties with the root of the problem of Atlantis, and explains why all researchers so far have failed to find the true site of Atlantis.

The ancients figured the world that is, the lands they knew of (Eurasia and Africa), the so-called Ancient World as a roughly circular plate surrounded all around by the Ocean ("Atlantic"). Outside this Circular Ocean, "containing" it, so to speak, was the true "Continent",..
.... As a matter of fact, the very word "Ocean" derives from the Sanskrit acayana meaning "encircling all around".


[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 08-31-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:04:56 pm
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"Indeed, this ocean took this name because it was deemed the "Ocean of the Atlanteans". Hence, Mediterranean locations such as Troy, Crete (Thera), Carthage, the Bosphorus, etc., automatically disqualify as the site of Atlantis."
Agreed!



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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:06:27 pm
Absonite

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  posted 08-31-2004 09:48 AM                   
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However, one should carefully recall that what the ancients called by the name of Atlantic Ocean, or others such as Outer Ocean, Kronius Oceanus, Mare Magnum, Mare Oceanum, etc., was not the same one we now address by that name. As we discuss in detail elsewhere, the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean. This difference in nomenclature is essential, for it ties with the root of the problem of Atlantis, and explains why all researchers so far have failed to find the true site of Atlantis.
The ancients figured the world that is, the lands they knew of (Eurasia and Africa), the so-called Ancient World as a roughly circular plate surrounded all around by the Ocean ("Atlantic"). Outside this Circular Ocean, "containing" it, so to speak, was the true "Continent",..
.... As a matter of fact, the very word "Ocean" derives from the Sanskrit acayana meaning "encircling all around".

Agreed Cat,
While it is sometimes appropriate to take things out of context, it is not always appropriate.



[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 08-31-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:08:24 pm
atalante
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   posted 09-01-2004 06:10 AM                   
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Pharaoh Sahure's raid on Libya was a topic of public interest AROUND THE TIME WHEN SOLON VISITED EGYPT
I did some checking about Sahure ca 2470 BC, and his navy etc.

The first recorded visit to the distant land of Punt took place under Sahure.

And Sahure had a fleet of ships going to asia (Byblos?), manned by both asiatics and Egyptians.

Sahure's report about his attack on Libya is considered semi-Legendary, because it was plagiarized by two later Pharoahs, including the 25th dynasty pharoah Taharqa (680-664 BC), who ruled Egypt at the same time when Phoenicia was conquored by the Assyrians. During Taharqa's reign, a large number of Phoenician colonists was migrating to the west end of the Mediterranean Sea.

The plagiarizing behavior of Taharka makes it clear that texts about Sahure's "Libyan raid" story could have been available to the priests who told Solon about Atlantis.

quote from: http://encyclozine.com/Sahure
Most foreign relations during the reign of Sahure were economic, rather then combative...

However, this same scene of the Libyan attack was used two thousand years later in the mortuary temple of Pepi II and in a Kawa temple of Taharqa. The same names are quoted for the local chieftain. Therefore, we become somewhat suspicious of the possibility that Sahure was also copying an even earlier representation of this scene.
endquote


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-01-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:09:10 pm
rockessence

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   posted 09-01-2004 10:30 AM                   
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Atalante!
As I mentioned in the other thread where you discussed this same subject:

A possibility that the even earlier reference relates the story of the Baltic Libya, pre-dating the migrations south of all the cultures/tribes maintaining their positions surrounding the Middle-Earth-Sea at the end of the climatic optimum.

See thread HOMER IN THE BALTIC



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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:09:45 pm
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  posted 09-01-2004 10:38 AM                   
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Yep, Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean. It was also called "open sea", while the Mediterranean was only called a "harbor".
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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:10:36 pm
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  posted 09-01-2004 04:00 PM                   
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Smiley,
What's your point? Are you just taking another meaningless poll? Choosing up sides?
You think the Mediterranean is just a harbor? Try swimming it sometime. How big is this "harbor" from length and width? Any idea? Any idea how many countries it spans? Any idea how many islands it had before the break at Gibraltar?
Any idea how many errors in Plato's he said she said Hearsay tale from Salon? Any idea how many people live around this harbor? Who called it a harbor? Plato? Obviously Plato is another one who doesn't know what he is talking about.
However, one should carefully recall that what the ancients called by the name of Atlantic Ocean, or others such as Outer Ocean, Kronius Oceanus, Mare Magnum, Mare Oceanum, etc., was not the same one we now address by that name. As we discuss in detail elsewhere, the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean. This difference in nomenclature is essential, for it ties with the root of the problem of Atlantis, and explains why all researchers so far have failed to find the true site of Atlantis.


[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 09-01-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:11:19 pm
atalante
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   posted 09-01-2004 07:54 PM                   
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Pseudo-Aristotle said that the Ocean passes eastward through the Straights of Gibralter, and then widens out into 6 different Gulfs.
It would be nice if we can reach a concensus that the ENTIRE mediterranean region is part of the encircling Ocean. In the quote below, Aristotle is saying that the Ocean flows around Greece (i.e. "around us").

The corresponding quote from pseudo-Aristotle is:
Cf. De mundo syr. 139.16-21, 139.23-140.1 [< gr. 393a 16-21, 23-28]: That sea which is outside the whole Habitable World is called the Atlantic and the Oceanus. It also flows around us here. Because on the west a narrow mouth (fumo aliso) is open to it from the inside – at what are called the Stelae (STLWS) of Hercules – its flow proceeds into this sea by us, as if into some harbour, and thus widens out little by little here, spreading out until it embraces (lobek < perilambánô) the large gulfs which adjoin each other. … It is said first to widen out to the right after proceeding from the Stelae (ST’LS) of Hercules and is divided into two gulfs and passes the islands called the Syrtes, one of which they call the Greater Syrtes and the other the Lesser Syrtes. On the other, northern, side it does not widen out immediately in the same way, but makes there too three gulfs (cubbin),18 that called the Sardinian (SWRDWNYQWN), that called the Galatian (G’LTYQWN) and the Great Adriatic (’DRY’S rabbo). After these is another slanting gulf which is called the Sicilian (SQYLYQWN).


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-01-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:11:44 pm
 
Ulf Richter

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   posted 09-02-2004 02:16 PM                   
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atalante,
it is really interesting what you found out about Sahure and his navy.
And also the remarks in the "570 bC -Atlantis Risen" thread about a possible Libyan sea base in the lake Tritonis, which was in old times connected to the Mediterranean.

Archaeological findings of the Bell Beaker People (2500 - 2000 BC) are known from Morocco, but as far as I know not yet from Libya. This does not say that they could not be there. In this area only few excavations were made up to now.

You have also mentioned the Hyksos dynasty ruling in lower Egypt from about 1767 BC. It is said that the Hyksos (the first who used war chariots) came from Syria or further north. But could they also have had connections with the Libyans?


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:12:31 pm
atalante
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   posted 09-02-2004 09:49 PM                   
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Ulf,
1) In regard to the Bell Beaker people, I agree that they did not travel ON LAND into Libya.
(They did however, reach a few islands in the western Mediterranean, terminating at the Ascanian , =western, side of Sicily.)
But do you remember when Jonas Bergman first posted his website? Initially it included a link to a college masters thesis, which covered BOTH Morocco and Algeria, as far east as Cape Bon (=Carthage/Utica). Perhaps that link was titled Mzora, but I am not sure.

It turns out that there was a megalithic construction style along the SOUTHWEST coast of the Med, from Gibralter to Cape Bon. These people, or this culture, is in the right place to be using obsidian from a source a little way offshore from Cape Bon. That source of obsidian was the island of Pantelleria.

If this was a unified culture across northwest Africa, then the Bell Beaker people probably only delivered goods to the WESTERN end of that culture. So the Egyptians would only hear rumors about Bell Beaker People, instead of making direct contacts.

and now changing topics:
2) There were two different groups of Hyksos. Dynasty 14 called themselves the Khasus, and seized nome 6 of the Nile Delta, called Xois in Greek language (immediately south of Neith's two nomes, 4 and 5). Then the next dynasty of Hyksos called themselves "overlords of the Kasus", or Hyk Khasu, and ruled from their capital city at Avaris.

The ancient Egyptian story called The Contendings of Set and Horus is talking about the politics of that first Kasu dynasty 14 (becasue it claims the Ennead gods ruled from the the city of Xois, rather than the normal location at Heliopolis). Riven was amused when I pointed out to him that this Egyptian story, The Contendings of Set and Horus, can be regarded as THE LOST ENDING OF PLATO'S CRITIAS. (In that story, Neith is called Neith the Great, meanwhile Zeus is called the Universal Lord.)

I expect that the two dynasties of Hyksos were tied to the general region of Syria, and had very little to do with Libya.

3) Descendents of the Meshwesh were probably the dominant culture, or civilization, in northern Libya during 1200-700 BC.

But then around 700 BC, the 25th dynasty of Egypt conquored the Sais/Meshwesh people, and thus unified Egypt for about a century. In my opinion, this CONQUEST of the Libyan Meshwesh and of Sais is the reason why the 25th dynasty pharoah Taharqa (680-664 BC) plagiarized the old theme of (Sahure) defeating a powerful Libyan adversary.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-02-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:12:56 pm
 
atalante
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   posted 09-09-2004 07:03 AM                   
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Plato's choice of words makes it unlikely that Atlantis was located in what modern people call the Ocean.
Bodies of salt water are separated into 3 sizes:
gulf (small), sea (medium), and ocean (large).

Plato consistently stated that Atlantis was located in or on a SEA (pelagos).

And to be more precise, Plato never used the word "ocean" as a location for Atlantis.
(This is one of the most impressive items which I noticed in the research of Georgeos).


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-09-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:13:19 pm
Tom Hebert
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  posted 09-09-2004 07:20 AM                   
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quote:
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Yep, Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean. It was also called "open sea", while the Mediterranean was only called a "harbor".
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I agree with Smiley. If Plato can call the Mediterranean a harbor, then the Atlantic could easily be referred to as a sea. We have to consider that Plato is speaking relatively.

Also, it is important to look at his dialogues in context.

Tom



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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:13:40 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 09-10-2004 09:06 AM                   
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In Libya, in the region of "Tritonis Lake" (which was in this time still connected with the Mediterranean), according to Diodorus Siculus (ca.90-21BC) was the home of the tribe of the Amazons. They were a race of warlike women and fearsome warriors who conquered many nations, including their neighbours in the west, the Atlanteans, with their city of Cerne in north Africa. But they made peace with the Atlanteans and fought together against the Gorgons (another Libyan tribe), against Egypt under pharaoh Horus and at least, after a treaty with Horus, made a campaign against Anatolia.

Diodorus collected information about the Amazons for his book "Bibliotheca Historica" (Historical Library) from the book “Kyklos” of Dionysios of Mytilene (2th century BC), who got his information during his studies in the famous library of Alexandria from older books of Linos and Timoites (now lost).

According to the stories, the Atlanteans inhabited a rich country bordering the Atlantic ocean. The Atlanteans were notable for their hospitality to strangers and boasted that the gods were born among them. They claimed Uranus as their first King, and it was he who civilized the people "causing them to dwell in cities and till the soil". After his death, Uranus' 45 children divided the Kingdom when Atlas (one of the Titans) received the area of Atlantis and named it for himself. Atlas was a wise ruler and like his father was a great astrologer. Since he was the first one to discover the knowledge of the sphere, the people have created a legend saying that he bears the world upon his shoulders. His seven daughters, Atlantides, were adored as goddesses, and their offspring were the first ancestors of several nations, including Greek civilization.
http://www.auburn.edu/~downejm/sp/epsaas/epsaasDiod.html http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/amazons.html

This story does not meet exactly the narration of Plato, but it shows, that Atlantis and Libya were connected since old times.


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:14:01 pm
Absonite

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  posted 09-10-2004 10:31 AM                   
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Ulf,
You wrote:
"Atlas was a wise ruler and like his father was a great astrologer. "
******
There is no such thing as a "Great Astrologer". It is an oxymoron, with the emphasis on moron.

many thousands of supposedly intelligent people still believe that one may be born under the domination of a lucky or an unlucky star; that the juxtaposition of the heavenly bodies determines the outcome of various terrestrial adventures. Fortunetellers are still patronized by the credulous.

The courses of the stars in the heavens have nothing whatever to do with the events of human life on earth. Astronomy is a proper pursuit of science, but astrology is a mass of superstitious error.

This pseudo science of Babylon developed into a religion throughout the Greco-Roman Empire. Even in the twentieth century man has not been fully delivered from this superstitious belief.

Perhaps Atlas and his father were great astronomers and they simply did not have the proper word for it in those days; but they certainly were not great astrologers.



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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:14:26 pm
atalante
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   posted 09-15-2004 06:20 AM                   
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Ulf,
If Egypt had records about the Atlantean Invasion (or War), and espectially since Plato wrote that the Atlanteans controlled Libya as far east as the border of Egypt, then any meaningful explanation of Atlantis needs some connection to Libya.
In your last post, about Diodorus and his Amazon/Atlantean stories, I noticed an interesting issue.

If the mythical Amazons (i.e. Libya) made war againt the Egyptian god-king Horus, this could supply a crucial linkage.

Diodorus seems to be implying that the Egyptian god-king Set (who attacked Horus the Elder and poked out one eye of Horus) corresponds to Diodorus's Amazons.

Modern Berbers may be the cultural descendents of both the Amazons and Set.




[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-15-2004).]


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:14:57 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 09-15-2004 07:55 AM                   
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atalante,
Certainly it could be useful to look at any mention of the Libyans in Egyptian texts, if they could have to do with Atlantis. On the other hand, not necessarily must the Libyans always have been allied with the Atlanteans; from Plato´s text we know it only for the time of the war.

The Berbers are often described as descendants of the old Libyans, and the so called Tifinag alphabet of the Touaregs, a surviving Berber tribe, might well have had its roots in the alphabet of Atlantis.

Just two months ago a book was edited in Germany, which is locating Atlantis itself near the lake Tritonis in Algeria.

Ulrich Hofmann: Platons Insel Atlantis, 264 pages, edited by Books on Demand, 2004

In the book is no hint to an english website, but I remember that there existed a website with the same location.
I will read the book in the next weeks to find out if something interesting is to be found there for our topic.

Unfortunately I have no time now for further discussion, because I leave my home for about 4 weeks.

Greetings from Ulf


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:15:26 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 01-25-2005 07:38 AM                   
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In my last post I wrote about the book:
Ulrich Hofmann: Platons Insel Atlantis (Plato´s island Atlantis), 264 pages, edited by Books on Demand, 2004
Hofmann looks at the predynastic cultures in Egypt, especially the so called Naqada I (4000 – 3600 BC) , and found close relations between their customs of burying their dead and decorating their ceramics with those in north west Africa. Already Flinders Petrie, the first explorer of the “Naqada culture”, thought that these peoples would have had immigrated from the west, from Libya. They decorated their ceramic vessels with ship patterns, and also among the rock engravings from this time are many ships.
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/02_edpetros.html
> The earliest historic record of seafaring ships that can be found seem to be the Neolithic petroglyphs or rock art that are found in the Egyptian eastern desert.
Many of these patterns have been dated to the Naqada period of Egyptian history which covers approximately the period of 4500-3100 BCE <<

It seems that the ships with the high bows and sterns (as the boat on the Phaistos disk) were sea-going vessels and not only river boats, and that the immigrants (or traders) came from the Mediterranean and from the West. Remembering Plato´s statement that Libya was part of the empire of Atlantis, it is probable that we can see Atlantean ships in the ship petroglyphs of the Egyptian Eastern Desert .

Hofmann thinks that the first high culture in Egypt, long before the first dynasty, was coming from the west, from Atlantis-Libya, and that also among the first pharaohs and their wives were descendants of the “Tehenu” (Libyans).

Also the “Gebel el-Arak knife”, from prehistoric Egypt, Naqada II (3500 – 3100 BC) shows boats of the “Phaistos disk” type, as Riven has found out. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/gebelea.html
>The other interesting thing is that the foreigners being attacked with the long hair look like the Maxyans as described by Herodotus. Definitely Libyan ancestors I would say. < (Riven)

It seems worthwile to make further study on the relations between early Libyans (Atlanteans) and early Egypteans



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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:15:51 pm
atalante
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Ulf,
You provided an excellent link about ancient ships, which claims the oldest ship drawings are located in Egypt's Eastern Desert, between the Nile River and the Red Sea.
That region also contains ruins of the oldest known gold mines. Ancient ships may have been used to transport the ancient gold,
so I am re-posting here a message which I previously put in the Zep Tepi topic.

atalante
Member posted 01-22-2005 13:34
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Research during 2002-2005 has located what is believed to be the earliest goldsmiths in the world. Tentatively the culture is dated 5500-3100 BC. It was located in southeast Egypt, near the Red Sea, in the Valley of Daghbeg.
quote from the Discovery Channel in Feb 2002: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020204/egyptian.html

The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry.

While the exact dates of the mines have yet to be confirmed, researcher Ali Barakat of Egypt's Geological Survey Authority recently told the Egyptian State Information Service that the Egyptians who lived both near the Red Sea and in the Valley of Daghbeg were the world's first goldsmiths.

Barakat added that the ancient Egyptians were the first to map geological charts of gold mines. He also said that they developed an effective technique for extracting gold from quartz veins.
According to Barakat, remnants of tools and ditches suggest that workers would grind stone containing gold into a fine powder. Water would be added to help dissolve deposits. The mixture then was poured into square-shaped basins that would trap sediments and leave the gold for collecting.

...

Although the metal was plentiful, it was reserved for nobility.

"The Egyptians referred to it as the skin, or the flesh, of the gods," she said. "Because of its color, gold was also associated with the sun."

endquote

That article by Discovery Channel was based on a press release in January 2002 by the Egyptian State News Agency. http://www.sis.gov.eg/online/html4/o230821.htm

One very interesting element of this story is that large "channels" have now been discovered in association with perhaps the earliest gold mining culture in the world.

These archaeological finds help to explain the function (i.e. sedimentary ore processing) of some upstream "channels" in Plato's story of Atlantis.

And farthermore, the ancient Egyptians had told Solon/Plato that Atlantis had a massive amount of gold, as reported in Critias 120e-121a. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0180

Critias 120e
Consequently they thought scorn of everything save virtue and lightly esteemed their rich possessions, bearing with ease

[121a] the burden, as it were, of the vast volume of their gold and other goods; and thus their wealth did not make them drunk with pride so that they lost control of themselves


Mythically speaking, this 5500-3100 BC period for Egypt's Daghbeg gold mines can correlate to the "golden age" which was ruled by the Greek god Cronos.







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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:16:16 pm
Smiley4554

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  posted 01-25-2005 10:11 AM                   
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Thanks, Tom.
Absonite: You are the first to point out that the names of the oceans were not what we call them today, but say that the Mediterranean was no harbor based upon what it appears today.


quote:
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the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean.
Quote
This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;


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This description is distinctly separating 2 completely different bodies of water ... i.e. the Atlantic Ocean and the "true ocean" beyond which would be the ocean that you are speaking about.

But, it is quite clear that they are 2 distinctly different bodies of water, and the ancients knew the difference.

Also, in this passage, the location is clear. An island was

quote:
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an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles
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, and this distinctly locates Atlantis in front of the open mouth of the Mediterranean Sea.

quote:
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You think the Mediterranean is just a harbor? Try swimming it sometime.
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You are "assuming" that the Mediterranean has always been as it is now, but it hasn't. There was a time when a whole lot more land was above the Mediterranean Sea's level. So, if we put it into perspective, at one time, the Mediterranean could have been what they would have called a "harbor".

Why do you think that they find so many submerged cities?


quote:
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Who called it a harbor?
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quote:
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which you call the Columns of Heracles: the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from the islands you might pass through the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a continent.
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If you note, he said specifically

quote:
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for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance,
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So, yes, he did say that the Mediterranean Sea was a "harbour", but he also was comparing & distinguishing it from the Atlantic Ocean so that no one would get the 2 confused with each other. Whether or not he meant it as such is another matter.


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Posts: 5596 | From: Arkansas...USA | Registered: Jan 2001 


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:16:38 pm
Ulf Richter

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atalante,
You have pointed to a very important clue:

> The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry<

When this part of Egypt was a famous source of gold, it is obvious why the Atlanteans may have travelled there by ship - via Mediterranean and Nile river - to get this precious metal. It is also possible that they, having special experience in gold mining, were exploring new sources and during one of these expeditions came to this remote place, as our today oil explorers are searching everywhere on the globe.

Anyway, the leaders or kings ruling a place where this precious metal was mined and traded, got wealthy and migthy and it is not astonishing therefore, that the first dynasty of Egypt was developing in this area.


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:17:46 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 02-06-2005 12:08 PM                   
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The boat with high prow and stern of the Phaistod disk and the Gebel el Arak knife is also depicted on the Narmer pallet (above right), perhaps it has something to do with the dead enemies?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.toutankharton.com/images/prehistoire/nagadaii_petite.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.toutankharton.com/egyptologie/prehistoire.php&h=187&w=1 61&sz=9&tbnid=HHtKIo8PnBsJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=83&start=42&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNaqada%
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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:19:08 pm
 
Boreas
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   posted 02-06-2005 04:09 PM                   
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6.200 year old carving of ship.
From the famous mesolittic site at Alta, the western neighbour to The North Cape.
http://www.imv.uit.no/ommuseet/enheter/ark/forskning_Alta.htm
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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:19:36 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 02-10-2005 02:55 AM                   
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Boreas,
thank you for the interesting link. In the "Tribes of Atlantis II" thread you provided also a link which shows a lot of old pictures of the ships with high prow and stern, which probably the Libyans have used to sail to Egypt:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/15Sailors/05sailors1.htm


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:20:10 pm
Smiley4554

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  posted 02-14-2005 10:13 AM                   
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If the Egyptologists stop @ 3500 BC, and go no further back, and since we have evidence of older civilizations as far back as 6000 BC, then it would appear that they do really have their heads in the sand.
Why? Well it is possible that the reason they want to go no further back is simply because if they do (and they may already know this to be true) they will have to admit that their civilization which appeared almost overnite were not the only advanced civilization to have lived in Egypt.


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:20:41 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-18-2005 02:15 PM                   
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Smiley,
you are right that the archeologists don´t pay enough attention to the cultures, which were the forerunners of the first dynasty in Egypt. Flinders Petrie , who detected the Naquada culture 3500 - 3100 BC, was the great exception.


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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:21:12 pm
Smiley4554

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  posted 03-21-2005 09:00 AM                   
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Naquada? I'll admit that I hadn't heard about that one.
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/1912.htm

quote:
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...(Petrie) discovered many cemeteries on the western bank of the Nile, between the districts of Naquada and Ballas, the contents of which differed considerably from those of other graves in Egypt, and which he therefore regarded not as Egyptian but as belonging probably to a Lybian race." One of the remarkable differences was the posture of the buried dead. With few exceptions up to this time the dead were found lying on their backs or on their sides at full length, the bodies found by Dr. Petrie in the districts named were "doubled up, the knees drawn up, the hands before the face, and lying on the left side ... The funeral objects were peculiar." These considerations led Dr. Petrie to conclude that the race they represented was not Egyptian, A year later, however, the French Egyptologist Prof. E. Amelineau made discoveries of a similar character in the "rubbish mounds known as Umm el-Ga'ab, near the ancient, sacred city of Abydos." "The tombs of the kings of Abydos," remarks Prof. Steindorff, "being purely Egyptian (as the inscriptions found in them prove,) it naturally follows that the civilization brought to light through these tombs is also Egyptian, and does not belong to another people as Petrie at first assumed."
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http://artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/02_edpetros.html
Scroll about 1/2 way down to see some period pieces discovered.

So it really comes down to this. Was this culture not Egyptian?


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Posts: 5596 | From: Arkansas...USA | Registered: Jan 2001   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:21:37 pm
docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 03-21-2005 11:36 AM                   
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Smiley, heres a 5000 years old vase.
Decorated with an unusual burial scene, it had been considered a fake, as it was "too good to be true". The decoration on the vase shows a figure on a boat, lying on its back and curled in the foetal position. This is how some early Egyptians may have been buried before mummification was introduced.

Was the figure really a egyptain?
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=548420


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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:23:30 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-26-2005 04:47 PM                   
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The remnants of the so called Naquada culture show many pictures of ships, painted on pottery or carved into rock walls:
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/02_edpetros.html
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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:25:15 pm
José María de la Rosa

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Rate Member   posted 08-15-2005 12:10 AM                   
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Just bumping this thread up... This Topic is deserved to be in front page also. If Riven yet it can do it topics that like... and it is allowed... I also have right...

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:25:46 pm
José María de la Rosa

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Rate Member   posted 08-15-2005 09:03 AM                   
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Dear Ulf...

I believe that nobody could doubt that Libya has been part of Atlantis.

Is described in Plato of very clear way, and in addition, other authors like Siculus, also say it...  :)

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:26:12 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-15-2005 02:25 PM                   
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In the paper of Ulrich Hofmann for the Milos Conference he writes about rock carvings of chariots in western North Africa.
This shows that the Lybian tribes used chariots already in very early times.

--------------------
Ulf

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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:26:46 pm
José María de la Rosa

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Rate Member   posted 08-15-2005 03:37 PM                   
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Dear Ulf...

Georgeos Diaz spoke in the radio (segun memory the last summer) of petroglyps like those, but according to him nothing exists that demonstrates its true antiquity.

In Iberia also we have also several, but according to it seems oldest would be of the Chacolithic or the Neolithic

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:27:30 pm
J-LCunchillos

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   posted 08-16-2005 09:47 PM                   
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Hi friends,

I am an enthusiastic one of old history, in special of the Phoenician World. My greater interest has been the colonizations phoenician of the West (Morocco and Iberia) for two years I am working in a project on the first visits of phoenician them to the West, because the last studies demonstrate that the oldest sites are in the coasts of Andalusia, Spain (around century IX BC), although we did not discard the inscription phoenician that epigraphist in Vigo discovered spanish, Pontevedra, Galicia, that by its style only can be dated in the centuries XII-XI BC, that is, that would be proof of presence phoenician older of all West.

The mystery is that nobody can explain as they phoenician them could travel until the noroccidental height of Iberia, and that nevertheless we did not find still found establishments older than the century IX-VIII BC in any place of Iberia nor of Morocco.

In summary. I very am interested in learning and to interchange information on they phoenician in Iberia and Morocco, but in special in Iberia, perhaps so that I am of Seville.

Perhaps I want to finish my thesis stops before Christmas, can help me with more information.

And of course, subject of Atlantis fascinates me, mainly, since in Spain armed great commotion by theories of investigator of our country that defends (with enough reason and arguments) that Atlantis were the name which Solon translated of the name of the peninsula of Iberia, that was translated just as the Greek Atlas name, that is, "to support, endure, to to bear".

I believed before in theory that name Iberia phoenician of was Yspanya (in Latin Ispania/Hispania), that translated like "Island of North", but now I incline a little more to this new theory that it would be *Yspalya, "Island Elevated", or "Island of Spal "the (god or king) that to bear (or to support) upwards", that it would give origin to the Roman form Ispal/Ispali/Hispalis (name of my city, Seville), and later by change of L in N (a very common phenomenon between all the languages semitics as they phoenician or punic), would happen to the most delayed form of Yspan or Yspania, of the one that it derived Ispania and Hispania later.

In addition, also *Yberya could to be form phoenician of old name proto-indoeuropean or indoeuropean, *BHeR (IE)"to bear", since from this root they derive meaning such which later they appear in other words like the Greek Atlas (of tlaô), "to bear, to support" (among other similars).

Then, * Y-bêrya (in Greek Ibêria), could be an adaptation phoenician of a original name IE or proto-IE, and that could mean the same one that phoenician *Yspalya and that Greek Atlantis. You can imagine (with all logic) as they sevillan, I must be very glad with these news!

I know enough phoenician and egyptian, I am not a doctor, but I have quite advanced knowledge, for many years of study and dedication, and these hypotheses are very good, explain many misteries.

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Atlanticôs Salutatis
Iberia Phoenîca

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Posts: 28 | From: Sevilla | Registered: Aug 2005 


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:28:11 pm
Boreasi

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   posted 08-16-2005 10:09 PM                   
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From where - in your opinion - did the Phonicians originate?

Best regards
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Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:29:03 pm
J-LCunchillos

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   posted 08-16-2005 10:45 PM                   
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Dear friend Boreasi,

Exists several theories, but the most accepted (and than I also acceptance) it is that they arose in II millenium BC, the coasts of Syria and Palestine. This is from the point of view of the archaeology, but the historical point of view is not due either to forget, that is to say, what the texts of the old authors say, and from this point of view in fact, is not possible to be spoken of Phoenician until the sources do not speak for the first time of them, who were in Homero texts (century VIII BC) that used the name of Phoinikês, Greek word that is translated as "purple or red color as the wine", since they were very famous by their dyed dresses of this color, and that caused that the Greeks gave that name, but one really does not know as they were called to if same, probably the inhabitants of Tyr, would be called Tyrians and the inhabitants of Sydon, Sydonians, etc.

--------------------
Atlanticôs Salutatis
Iberia Phoenîca

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Posts: 28 | From: Sevilla | Registered: Aug 2005   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:29:51 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-24-2005 02:36 PM                   
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Dear José,

The problem of rock engravings is always, that you do not know the age, when you have no other finds associated with the pictures.

But it is interesting that especially in the north western part of Africa, the ancient "Libya", having been according to Plato under the rule of the kings of Atlantis, we find so many rock engravings of chariots with horses. Hofmann wrote in his paper for the Milos Conference, that more than 300 paintings and engravings of chariots have been discovered in this area. Till today no scholar has explained these numerous chariot paintings. The area where these paintings were found is 2000 km in the extension north-south and 2500 km in the extension east-west, all over the modern states Morocco, Algeria, Mauretania, Libya and the northern parts of Mali, Niger and Chad. He writes: "There must have been numerous chariots, and there also must have existed a high degree of organization to enable the use of an animal that cannot adapt to dryness."

--------------------
Ulf

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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:30:18 pm
Riven

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  posted 08-24-2005 04:13 PM                   
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Ulf:

I have an interesting article in TOA II, which discusses a good chronology of rock paintings.

About 10% of Rock Art comes from Europe.

The mesopotamian rock art came later.

Herodotus told us about the 4 horse Chariots of Tritonis.

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.111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.

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Posts: 4081 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:30:58 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-31-2005 08:03 AM                   
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After the Milos Conference where I got knowledge about Frank Joseph, I bought his book: "Survivors of Atlantis", edited in 2004.

From Tom´s link I know, that we must be cautious with Josph´s claims, and I myself found some obvious errors in his other book: "Destruction of Atlantis" which I read first. But I think that he was very hard working to collect all dates about Atlantis and many references he has found may be true.

About the topic of this thread he wrote in chapter 7 "Atlanteans across the Sahara":

"In 1926 a German announced the discovery of Atlantis. Paul Borchardt was a serious investigator dedicated to scientific methodology and the accumulation of hard data. No armchair archeologist, he sought tangible proof himself across the sands of North Africa. In Lybia´s Ahaggar Mountains he met Berbers who had preserved oral traditions of a lost City of Brass."

This might be the source of the legends of the "City of Brass" in "Al-Andalus", written down by Arab/Moorish authors still before the Arabs/Moors conquered Iberia in 711 AD, which José has mentioned in his thread "Old Roman Codex ..."

Further in Joseph´s book:
"Not only was the legend similar to many details found in Plato´s account, but the Berber´s tribal name, "Uneur", resembled the name of the first man of Atlantis mentioned in the "Critias": Euenor.
Another tribe at Shott el Hameina, in Tunisia, bore the even motre striking name of "Attala", which was translated as "Sons of the Source".
The Attala also knew tales of a drowned City of Brass, suggesting the metallic decorations for which the great walls of Atlantis were widely famed." . . .

Everybody who reads this must have the same impression, that the today Berber tribes in North Africa could be the heirs of the ancient Libyans who were according to Plato under the rule of the kings of Atlantis.

--------------------
Ulf

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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:31:22 pm
Brig

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Personally I think Atlantis was more than just a city state beyond the Pillars. I think at one time Atlantis conquered most of the areas on the western parts of the Mediterranean sea and northward probably including Ireland, England and southward into the Sahara. If they were stopped by the Greeks, I guess it all depended on how much territory the Greeks controlled at the time.
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Posts: 9912 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:32:02 pm
Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-31-2005 03:11 PM                   
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Brig,

I agree with you that Atlantis must have been by far greater as a city state. May be they controlled not only the western half of the Mediterranean, but also parts of the eastern half. There is no evidence that the Greeks could have controlled a much greater territory than today Greece, perhaps some coast areas of Anatolia.

A victory of the 20000 warriors of Early Athens could only have taken place against an expedition corps of the Atlanteans; the whole army of 1,2 millions of warriors was probably not involved. But due to the following catastrophe which destroyed Atlantis there was no opportunity for the Atlanteans to come back.

--------------------
Ulf

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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:33:12 pm
Akata

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   posted 09-01-2005 06:12 AM                   
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A soul on the path of light
only seeking the truth in
the world,may the light
protect me.

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Posts: 1151 | From: Maribor,Štajerska,Slovenian | Registered: May 2003


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:33:51 pm
Akata

Member
Member # 1492

Member Rated:
   posted 09-01-2005 06:13 AM                   
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http://www.mts.net/~perasa/Atlantis%20map%206500bc.GIF

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A soul on the path of light
only seeking the truth in
the world,may the light
protect me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1151 | From: Maribor,Štajerska,Slovenian | Registered: May 2003


http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000007;p=2


Title: Re: Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter
Post by: Aatlae on March 26, 2008, 11:34:26 pm
Akata

Member
Member # 1492

Member Rated:
   posted 09-01-2005 06:17 AM                   
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http://www.mts.net/~perasa/this_m31.jpg
http://www.mts.net/~perasa/Satelite_x4_Atlantis_Riven.JPG

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A soul on the path of light
only seeking the truth in
the world,may the light
protect me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 1151 | From: Maribor,Štajerska,Slovenian | Registered: May 2003