the TITANS & early Greek Mythology

[Crystal Thielkien]

Rich

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   posted 06-29-2005 07:39 AM                       
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I'm kind of leaning towards Gaea as this snake goddess.

http://witcombe.sbc.edu/snakegoddess/
Minoan Snake Goddess from Knossos, Crete c. 1600 BCE

"It will be seen that the Minoan "Snake Goddess" may be indirectly linked through the Egyptian goddess Wadjyt with the Greek Aphrodite"

"Having identified the "Snake Goddess" as a "fertility deity"."

"when the "Snake Goddess" came to light in 1903, he not only identified her as a "goddess" but also claimed that she was worshipped by the Minoans as an aspect of the Mother Goddess. Evans thereby provided the basis for the argument that Minoans lived in a matrilineal, or even a matriarchal, society."

"Egyptian uraeus (rearing cobra snake) on the head of Hathor and other Egyptian goddesses. In particular, Evans tentatively links the "Snake Goddess" with the Egyptian Goddess Wazet (i.e. Wadjyt), the snake goddess of the Nile Delta, but does not pursue the connection. "

[ 06-29-2005, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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[Crystal Thielkien]

Rich

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   posted 06-29-2005 09:09 AM                       
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http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Perseus1.html
Perseus 1 met the GRAEAE, who were sisters of the GORGONS and old women from birth.

[ 06-29-2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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[Crystal Thielkien]

Chronos

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   posted 06-30-2005 12:20 PM                       
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Rich, your linking Gaea with the Snake Goddess maks a lot of sense. As the Olympians chased the Titans out of the world, so did the Mycenaens war with the Minoans. The earlier age where the Titans ruled in an era of peace and prosperity before Zeus and his brethren came might refer to the period of the Minoans.

I wonder if maybe we're taking too literal an interpretation of the gods?

Many times in the forum, we rose the idea that the gods may have been based on real people. When Linear A is deciphred might we find a whole new history where people like Cronus, Hyperion, Prometheus might have actually existed in real life, as flesh and blood leaders of the Minoans?

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[Crystal Thielkien]

eren

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   posted 07-01-2005 12:10 PM                       
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Chronos;

Quote
Scholars speculate that the forebears of the Minoans arrived in Crete sometime between 4000 and 3000 B.C.E., having come from the Black Sea region.

That's my hypotesis too. Like most of Anatolian, some of E. European and Asian civilisations I believe.

If you take a look at Gobustan Rock engravings in Azerbaijan-Gobustan you will notice that the boats show great similarities with the boats in the wall painting showing the Sea Peoples attack found in Thera-Minoan palace.

http://donsmaps.com/gobustan.html
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[Crystal Thielkien]

eren

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   posted 07-01-2005 12:15 PM                       
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Atalante;

Quote
The Perseus Tufts lookup tool reports that the name Geryon is NOT an accurate transliteration of any greek words.

If Geryon has a chance to be transformed from Gerion, "ion" is known as a Phyrigian suffix.
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[Crystal Thielkien]

Rich

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   posted 07-01-2005 01:17 PM                       
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[ 07-01-2005, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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[Crystal Thielkien]

rockessence

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   posted 07-01-2005 08:07 PM                       
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Eren,

RE: "Gobustan Rock engravings in Azerbaijan-Gobustan you will notice that the boats show great similarities with the boats in the wall painting showing the Sea Peoples attack found in Thera-Minoan palace."

Notice the reference to the ASER, still named so in Azerbaijan.

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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3129 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

[Crystal Thielkien]

 
Gwen Parker

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   posted 07-01-2005 10:24 PM                       
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quote:
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The Argosy: A Map of History

'The Argosy', the myth of Jason and the Golden Fleece, is an ancient saga of a maritime raid from Greece into the Euxine (Black) Sea. This raid occurred a generation before the Trojan War, yet the barest of mentions are in the works of Homer or Hesiod. Portions of 'The Argosy' survive in the incomplete Naupaktia, however, in one of Pindar's odes the tale exists completely. Victor J. Matthews proposes in his "Naupaktia and Argonautika," a date for the Naupaktia near c.750 BC, writing: "The nature of the poem suggests a date close to that of the Hesiodic corpus." [6] We are sure of the date of composition for Pindar, as Emmet Robbins has pointed out in his "Jason and Cherion: The Myth of Pindar's Fourth Pythian." [7] It seems certain Pindar's 'Pythian Odes' Four and Five were written to commemorate the victory of King Arkesilas of Cyrene in the chariot race at Delphi in 462 BC.

The development of 'The Argosy' is complex and, as was quite common for many Greek myths, layered with additions, interpretations, and much else from later Greek and Roman authors. One such interpretation merits our attention -- the Katasterismoi by the unknown author known as Psuedo-Eratosthenes, who aligned the major characters and events of 'The Argosy' with the twelve zodiacal constellations. The Katasterismoi is a generally overlooked work, though studied at length in Theony Condos' Ph.D. thesis, from 1970, at the University of Southern California. [8]

The esoteric nature of many myths has challenged both ancient and modern students. During the latter portion of the nineteenth century, groundbreaking scholarship explained how the Book of Genesis is an edited combination of several different sources and traditions, now believed to have been compiled in its present form no earlier than 500-300 BC. Unfortunately, no such "higher criticism" is possible with the extant Greek myths, because at no time did the Greeks pause to agree on which traditions they should collectively follow. Even with the works of Homer, surely the most respected and often quoted of the Greek authors, we are confused.

Martin Nilsson, with his classic Sather Lectures from 1930 and 1931, put forth the model that Helen of Troy was originally a vegetation-goddess "akin to Kore-Persephone [whose] . . . cult legend replaced Kore, who always retained her
dignified position, not being drawn, as was Helen, into the heroic mythology." [9] If Helen is removed from the realm of Homeric "history," we are left with the wonderful
account of the siege of Troy as little more than an early Greek "docu-drama." But, that is incomplete and unfair--many myths and histories require understanding from various perspectives and should be accorded the deepest respect and consideration. Easy answers to the hard questions are rare. I would venture to suggest they simply do not exist for many, if any.

The historian H. D. F. Kitto distinguished two main types of Greek religions: " . ..a religion that had to do with the social group, and a religion that had to do with nature-worship." [10] Clearly, as shown above, there was no consensus among the
Greeks concerning their traditions. It is extremely unfortunate no one has compiled the various Greek myths, legends, and stories, and attached dates of composition to them. I believe this would help the student separate true "myth" from later allegory and sociopolitical commentary, which seems the impetus of so many Greek writers after Hesiod.

Yet, the Greeks themselves were acutely aware of this plastic approach to their
"mythological" heritage. Indeed, the healthy skepticism of the Greeks greatly contributed to the scientific method of theory and proof. Xenophanes, c.570-475 BC, is justly famous for commenting, "But if oxen (and horses) and lions had hands or could draw with hands and create works of art like those made by men, horses would draw pictures of gods like horses, and oxen of gods like oxen, and they would make the bodies (of the gods) in accordance with the form that each species itself possesses." [11]

A remarkable, explicit breakthrough occurred with the Metamorphoses, later known as "The Golden Ass," written by the Latin novelist Lucius Apuleius, fl. 2nd cent. CE. [12] This oldest, extant novel reveals esoteric secrets concerning certain Greco-Egyptian rites involving the use of drugs, probably a solanaceae-paste. The flagrant description of a "mystery" by Apuleius seems to reflect a general decline toward certain time-honored rites and perhaps first "revealed" during the scandal of Alcibiades in 415 BC, when the Athenian noble was fined for celebrating the Eleusinian mysteries in his home to entertain friends.

Due to the symbolic and, therefore, easily misunderstood nature of 'The Argosy' some have suggested Jason sailed in ancient times to the New World. It is interesting that Eratosthenes postulated a major land-mass somewhere in the Atlantic after he very near correctly calculated the circumference of the Earth and later, either in a condensed version of a lost work by Eratosthenes, or as most hold, in his name, Psuedo-Eratosthenes made the alignment between 'The Argosy' and the zodiac. The vague geographical references contained in later versions of 'The Argosy' have invited many guesses, some suggesting the New World as the source of desired gold or the 'golden fleece', perhaps because of the basic east to west "path" of the sun, which the zodiacal constellations "follow." However, it is doubtful the historical Jason ever left the confines of the Mediterranean and Black seas; it must be stressed the alignment between the zodiac and 'The Argosy' occurred over a thousand years after the accepted date for the voyage of the Argo. The period between initial event and its first extant description was overlooked by Sir Isaac Newton, who also aligned "The Argosy' and the zodiac (apparently without reading Psuedo-Eratosthenes), and with an unfortunate dilettantism, used the voyage of the Argo as a fixed date in various versions of his "Chronology." This fascinating revisionist approach of Newton's is detailed in Frank Manuel's Isaac Newton Historian. [13]

Modern commentators, such as Dr. Edwin C. Krupp of Los Angeles' Griffith Observatory, acknowledge motifs which incorporate the sun, moon, planets, and the
zodiacal constellations in such myths as Heracles, Gilgimish, Tammuz, Mithra, and many others. [14] It would be folly to claim these myths were conceived solely to represent celestial phenomena, but they did, at one time or another, become adapted and restructured to reflect such phenomena. This process is apparent with 'The Argosy' and its subsequent alignment with the zodiacal constellations. The technology of the zodiac must have been very much revered by the ancients to have so shaped their folk-stories, legends, and in the case of the Jesus Narrative, perhaps even a religion.
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http://www.flavinscorner.com/maps.htm
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[Crystal Thielkien]

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   posted 07-01-2005 10:31 PM                       
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Yes Rockessence, you told it to me first, I still keep in mind 
Almost the same isn't it.

I believe Assyrians were neither Mesopotamian in original.

Have you aver notice the similarity between Hattis-Aeetes? (both plural)
It makes Circe directly the sister of a Hattian King, maybe you remember that I mentionned about it.
I hope you remember The golden pitcher ( actually it hasn't a direct word for this in english, it is translated as: the long-spouted ewer) that one of Circe's fairies pour water appear in Asia and Anatolia. Weaving looms too.
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[Crystal Thielkien]

 
rockessence

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   posted 07-02-2005 02:02 AM                       
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Interesting...No I don't recall hearing that, but tell more please.

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All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3129 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   
 

[Crystal Thielkien]

eren

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   posted 07-03-2005 12:09 PM                      
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Rockessence,

How sad that the science and art people of this country are not aware enough of the treasury here to put some articles on internet, and I don't expect others to do it for here, as they mostly like to do the opposite.
Most of the times it causes me feel like Cassandra when posting here.
But yet, I think I still have a little to put down below:

For the pitcher, all I can give as the closest example is a golden one from Hattis dated to the second half of 3000BC
The 6th picture:

http://www.discoverturkey.com/bakanlik/b-a-corumoren.html

Later we see the long spouted ewens in Ottoman and Islamic art.I couldn't find any antic one but just as a sample for the form:

http://www.muzayedeisletmeleri.org/muzayede/db_sonuclar_texant.asp?mnuta=2004%2FA3&Submit=%3A%3A++ARA++%3A%3A&offset=75

Interesting, ewens are often used also as a figure in rugs and carpets of Asia and Anatolia.

The Prehistoric Origins of Weaving

With modern sophisticated methods of radiocarbon testing and DNA testing, today's scientists are much better able to assign accurate dates to archeological findings than they were even a decade ago. The exact date of the first handwoven works, however, continues to remain a mystery. Nevertheless, there is evidence of cloth being made in Mesopotamia and in Turkey as far back as 7000 to 8000 BC.
http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~dvess/ids/fap/weav.html


Two basic knots are used in most Persian and Oriental rugs: the symmetrical Turkish or Ghiordes knot (used in Turkey, the Caucasus, East Turkmenistan, and some Turkish and Kurdish areas of Iran), and the asymmetrical Persian or Senneh knot (Iran, India, Turkey, Pakistan, China, and Egypt).
http://www.rugman.com/Library/RT_Techniques.aspx

We also know that fabrics were found in Ikiztepe-Black Sea coast dated to 4500 BC.

Some excellent links that you can catch many many relations on Hatti-Aeetes, Circe, Helios and so much more all together :

http://www.mythinglinks.org/NearEast~Anatolia.html
http://www.tribwatch.com/manes.htm
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[Crystal Thielkien]

rockessence

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   posted 07-04-2005 10:30 AM                       
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Eren,

A facinating read....

One comment, there was the statement that the oldest representations were of female figures...I wonder at this, as much older are the stone pillars or stelae or upright dolmens or etc. which to me are a representative of "i", the **** and the seed, the All-father, not as a "god" but as a force of nature. These probably pre-date the idea of god/goddess.

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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3129 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

[Crystal Thielkien]

eren

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   posted 07-04-2005 03:25 PM                       
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Yes Rockessence, very good site isn't it?

I agree with you in your comment.
But,if we look further for archeols of Neolithic age of Asia minor, we can see there are also some samples of pottery like bowls symbolising the women-uterus and **** together in one.
I give you the same link I gave for the mother godess, if you scroll down you will see one of these bowls I mention about. Third illustration, the one at left:

http://www.ancientanatolia.com/historical/neolithic.htm

[ 07-04-2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: eren ]
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[Crystal Thielkien]

rockessence

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   posted 07-05-2005 01:18 AM                       
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Yes, that ****-topped pot is great...if you find other depictions and descriptions of them I would like to see more.

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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3129 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

[Crystal Thielkien]

Riven

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  posted 07-06-2005 03:35 PM                       
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Is there any hooter topped pots?   
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