INTERNATIONAL MILOS CONFERENCE 2005 :ATLANTIS (Ulf Richter)

[Tina Walter]

Ian Nottingham

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Member # 2232

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   posted 08-06-2005 09:55 PM                   
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If I may interrupt here, we don't know exactly which year that the Temple of Neith was destroyed. I have brought my Temple of Neith thread close so that you can both see the best information I have been able to find on it. My own work on it has come to a dead end since very little excavation seems to have been done there.

Concerning the fact of the Pillars of Hercules possibly being somewhere else, we are forgetting that Plato doesn't relegate the location of Atlantis simply to where the pillars may or may not have been, he also places it clearly in the Atlantic Ocean:

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Clearly the Atlantic as the geographic position, and clearly a descritpion of the relationship of the Mediterranean to the Atlantic if you read it closely.
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Posts: 240 | From: the void | Registered: Nov 2004   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 12:08 AM                   
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Peter:

The Chalcidius is the only surviving fragment of Plato's Timaeus. The slides can be seen at Oxfords MS.Digby 23 volumes.

My research indicates that Chalcidius was working from Plato's originals as he himself indicates that they were from his notebook.

Chalcidius most likely wrote this manuscript in Sicily, where Plato also wrote and tried to revive the government of Dionysus of Syracuse and Sicily which also they seeked advise from Plato's military expertise concerning Carthage, whom they feared.

This would be around 360.bC which as you already know, around 350.aD,Chalcidius penned the manuscript in Latin.

Being Portuguese helps me understand some of Latin but not all, never mind learning Heiroglyphs and ancient Greece.

So, I had to learn Latin, and what you see of my research into Latin and our members, is a well documented project. The indications are all the same unless people change and conform the scripts for another 2575 years.

But Chalcidius, being in Sicily and under Roman rule, made a crucial mistake in his work.

He penned Augostos rather than Angostos.

A slight fate of hand and memory.

Angostos means narrow straite.
Augostos means the Greatest Roman Emperor around 30.bC which also the Augustus Mare became the name for the waters west of Italy.

This is the Harbour inside the straites that Critias speaks of in Timaeus.

Ironicaly, Timaeus was intended to be an Astrological genesis format which for some strange reason, the legend of Atlantis and a Great War was cleverly concealed in.

What Chalcidius really intended is unclear for the consideration if he may also have been "Suppressed" by Augustus somehow.

Was he copying from another Latin Scribe who served Augustus?

Was the Augustus manuscript the only available script to copy from, and was it purposefuly altered?

Hard to say without Plato's original but leaving a very curious thought as to the only explanation that Atlantis could not be in the Atlantic.

However, even the etymological roots also are indicative of the Western Atlantic as are Atlas and the Hesperides and Blessed Isles.

Then Herodotus in 460.bC, ahead of Plato, tells us about the Atalantes cultures in Algeria and the legendary Lake Tritonis, which also was very real long ago.

To put the icing on the cake, your archaeo pals confirm the Aterian cultures predominant in both Africa and Iberia who became the Aquitanni's there.

To close this topic let me address that we are talking of highly skilled men in and around 360.bC to 600.bC. A time of great intelligence that still rivals those of today.

People get lost in this 10000 years ago, and bronze age, etc,etc, but tend to forget that the story comes to life in a very advanced age of 570.bC.

In other words, those men had their facts and priorities in order. They knew their Geographies in those times.

They had different names for the Oceans, Euxine,Ethiopean,Nile,Red Sea,Caspian,Erythraenaen, and Atlantic in the time they revealed Atlantis,2575 years ago, or 570.bC.

So in the span of 600.bC from Solon to 360.bC of Plato, there would have been no real difference in Geographies as they knew it which we see from their maps or of their knowledge.

They may have spoke of 9000 years gone by,but they knew what they were talking about when they said the Pillars of Hercules, not of Melkart or Sesostris II for the matter.

Herodotus knew of the gold and emerald pillars of Phoenicia, but Plato knew of the Orichalcum pillars of Atlantis.

Plato was an honorary man. Simple.

You are correct in relating the Maadi cultures as the first recognized settlements in Lower Egypt which most likely was the result of the Thebes/Thinis advent of Aha or MEnes who UNITED the Goddesses of the Two Lands in around 3100.bC and Memphis.

So we ask, what did MEnes unite?
Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt.

Then the other peoples must have been different than Maadi?

6000-3000.bC
Pelasgians,Etruscans,Tarxiens,Creteans,Libyans,20,000.bCCapsians,Qaadans from Atalantes ca 12000.bC

90,000.bC Aterians who superceded the Mousetarians.

Now we ask, why was Lower Egypt so different than Egypt itself? The beliefs,the Gods,the cultural advancement as compared to Upper Egypt.

Answer.

Ta-Tenen.

Ian;
So far I've traced Sais to the times of the Persian King Darius which also revealed who the real Egyptian Priest was, Wedjahor-Resne, who also was a navy admiral and physician besides a priest. His statue and story of how Darius allowed him to preserve the temple of Neith at Zaa, can still be seen in the Vatican Museum.

After that it was Alexander the Great around 335.bC who logicaly to me is indicative of the Romans using the stones for other buildings.

I also posted an article from one of your threads concerning Cayce and Calais in TOAII.

Thanks to all as Atlantis also thanks you.
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

 
Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 12:47 AM                   
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Peter;

I wish you well in your studies and hope you'll reveal the true Lower Egypt before 3000.bC. The Palermo stone itself has about 16 other Kings ahead of Menes and should go back to 5000.bC.

The Gebel-el-arak Knife allowed me to discover the Tarxien Dragon Claw Orb ships of 3500.bC (also see tomb 100 map),from Malta which this Ship links the Phaistos Disk to that time period also and not 1650.bC.

This Ship also appeared on the Stonehenge pillars.

I place the Atlantean battle around 3450.bC.

Narmer Palette. 

Archaeo-gogo.

P.S. Listen to Thoth and don't become a Dark Brother in your Egyptian Studies.

Like Jesus, the Egyptians also forgot the words of Thoth, the Atlantean from Nu.

[ 08-07-2005, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Riven ]
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   
 

[Tina Walter]

 
Peter V

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Member # 71

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   posted 08-07-2005 01:48 AM                   
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"P.S. Listen to Thoth and don't become a Dark Brother in your Egyptian Studies"

Yes, master, I shall resist the lure of the dark side.

Forgive me for responding to your post piecemeal..

"My research indicates that Chalcidius was working from Plato's originals as he himself indicates that they were from his notebook."

If Aristotle didn't have it, he didn't.

"Chalcidius most likely wrote this manuscript in Sicily, where Plato also wrote and tried to revive the government of Dionysus of Syracuse and Sicily"

Most likely? Why? Share your evidence, please.

"This would be around 360.bC which as you already know, around 350.aD,Chalcidius penned the manuscript in Latin."

Thats 600 years...keep that in mind. America is 200 years old, and look at the mythologies surrounding Washington.

"Being Portuguese helps me understand some of Latin but not all, never mind learning Heiroglyphs and ancient Greece."

Consider yourself lucky. I went through 3 years of hell in Latin class. You have the advantage of speaking a romance language.

"So, I had to learn Latin, and what you see of my research into Latin and our members, is a well documented project. The indications are all the same unless people change and conform the scripts for another 2575 years."

Prove it.

"But Chalcidius, being in Sicily and under Roman rule, made a crucial mistake in his work.

He penned Augostos rather than Angostos."

Typos suck, eh? Especially when the text has been edited, and edited, and edited, and edited. Trust me, if we're reading an original work such as this, there aren't typos. It was written a million times over.

"Angostos means narrow straite.
Augostos means the Greatest Roman Emperor around 30.bC which also the Augustus Mare became the name for the waters west of Italy."

From Greek to Latin, eh? Your made up word doesn't mean anything in either language. You're inventing now...and it doesn't mean a thing.

"Ironicaly, Timaeus was intended to be an Astrological genesis format which for some strange reason, the legend of Atlantis and a Great War was cleverly concealed in."

Evidence?

"What Chalcidius really intended is unclear for the consideration if he may also have been "Suppressed" by Augustus somehow."

Yes, Livy, one of the most impressive thinkers in human history, who was absolutely blunt in his descriptions regarding the poverty of Rome, was blunted by Caesar.

"Was the Augustus manuscript the only available script to copy from, and was it purposefuly altered?"

yay!! Conspiracy!! Even better, ANCIENT CONSPIRACY. (sorry, I know Italics would make it look more convincing)

"Hard to say without Plato's original but leaving a very curious thought as to the only explanation that Atlantis could not be in the Atlantic."

Aristotle had the original. What did he say?

"Then Herodotus in 460.bC, ahead of Plato, tells us about the Atalantes cultures in Algeria and the legendary Lake Tritonis, which also was very real long ago."

Sounds like you got that from a book having never read herodotus yourself. Its in book four. Please read it and consume the context.

"To close this topic let me address that we are talking of highly skilled men in and around 360.bC to 600.bC. A time of great intelligence that still rivals those of today."

Intellectually rivalling us today? Yes. Technologically, absolutely not.

"So we ask, what did MEnes unite?
Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt."

Egyptologists aren't sure that a Menes existed at all. So be careful in your acceptance of popular history.

"Then the other peoples must have been different than Maadi?

6000-3000.bC
Pelasgians,Etruscans,Tarxiens,Creteans,Libyans,20,000.bCCapsians,Qaadans from Atalantes ca 12000.bC"

ROFL, no. Evidence?

"90,000.bC Aterians who superceded the Mousetarians.

Now we ask, why was Lower Egypt so different than Egypt itself? The beliefs,the Gods,the cultural advancement as compared to Upper Egypt."

It was SLOWER! It was BEHIND Upper Egypt at this time!!
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Posts: 4445 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 1999 
 

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 02:23 AM                   
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Now I can see why you relate yourself as an amateur Peter.

Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.)

Though a brilliant pupil, Aristotle opposed some of Plato's teachings, and when Plato died, Aristotle was not appointed head of the Academy. After leaving Athens, Aristotle spent some time traveling, and possibly studying biology, in Asia Minor (now Turkey) and its islands. He returned to Macedonia in 338 to tutor Alexander the Great; after Alexander conquered Athens, Aristotle returned to Athens and set up a school of his own, known as the Lyceum. After Alexander's death, Athens rebelled against Macedonian rule, and Aristotle's political situation became precarious. To avoid being put to death, he fled to the island of Euboea, where he died soon after.

Have you read and studied Timaeus or just the Westcar Papyrus?

Are you just here to advertise your Egyptian Itinerary Tours or do you share a genuine interest for Atlantis?

Prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid.

Prove that the glory of Egypt is hers and hers alone?

I beg to differ.

So you think Lower Egypt was slower?

I know that palaeolithic cultures formed in Upper Egypt 700,000 years ago with their Nubian Intelligence that took them until 3000.bC to become known in Lower Egypt, a land originaly of different people.

The real intelligence came not from Egypt but the lands from Western Ta-Tenen and the Tarxiens.

Something you'll have to wait for your masters to comprehend.

It's not only Egyptologists that are unsure of anything such as the name of Menes, but also the teachers and scriptors who write our conformed history books.

As Plato's Alcibiades told us, how can a teacher profess to teach when they all still argue over who is right?

People are either too lazy to find the truth or too hyper to follow the lead-Riven

[ 08-07-2005, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Riven ]
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

Ian Nottingham

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Member # 2232

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   posted 08-07-2005 02:46 AM                   
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Judging by Peter's past writings, I would say he is not a believer in Atlantis, Riven, and follows the standard Egyptology line.

I, too, think that Aristotle felt some jealousy for Plato, and that might have colored his comments.

There is also this quote from Plutarch's Lives, concering Solon:


quote:
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The priests of Egypt told Solon the ancient story of the lost continent of Atlantis. 5 Solon translated the story of Atlantis into Greek verse, thinking that it would be a very good thing for the Greeks to know.
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http://www.e-classics.com/

Meaning, of course, that the journey happened as occurred (even though Plutarch wrote years afterward), and was not fabricated as the bland academics are so fond of suggesting.

Testimony of Ancient Writers
It only remains now to summarize some of the evidence obtainable from ancient writers, from early race traditions, and from archaic flood-legends.

Aelian in his Varia Historia,[1] states that Theopompus (400 B.C.) recorded an interview between the King of Phrygia and Silenus, in which the latter referred to the existence of a great continent beyond the Atlantic, larger than Asia, Europe and Libya together.

Proclus quotes an extract from an ancient writer who refers to the islands in the sea beyond the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibraltar), and says that the inhabitants of one of these islands had a tradition from their ancestors of an extremely large island called Atlantis, which for a long time ruled over all the islands of the Atlantic Ocean.

Marcellus speaks of seven islands in the Atlantic, and states that their inhabitants preserve the memory of a much greater island, Atlantis, "which had for a long time exercised dominion over the smaller ones."

Diodorus Siculus relates that the Phoenicians discovered "a large island in the Atlantic Ocean beyond the Pillars of Hercules several days' sail from the coast of Africa."

http://www.tphta.ws/SE_ATLAN.HTM

Thank you for your kind words, by the way, and I would also like to thank you for all the work you have done here.

Pinpointing the exact date that the Temple of Neith was destroyed is hard because there isn't an exact record of it, that I have found anyway.

I am hopeful that something will be found there in the future, however. This quote comes from the Egypt Exploration Society currently doing the work:


quote:
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The survey work has shown that, contrary to appearances, there is still much archaeology at Sais. Working on the material is not straightforward, however, because most of it is buried below several metres of alluvial mud and the groundwater level. Traditional techniques of archaeological excavation will be difficult and expensive. However, by using a combination of geophysical survey to locate underground material with drill augurs to ascertain the depth and nature of the material, some progress can be made.
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http://www.dur.ac.uk/penelope.wilson/overview.html
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Posts: 240 | From: the void | Registered: Nov 2004 

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 02:52 AM                   
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8000-7000.bC first evidence of Palaeolithic cultures in far Western lower Egypt.
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk//paleo/mappal4.html
6500-5000.bC first cultures form around lake moeris.(Fayum)
probably Qarunian (late Capsian) Gerzeh, Abusir el-Meleq, Harageh.
5000-4000.bC first cultures form at Delta and Westside.
(Merimde Beni-salame from Maadi, Wadi Digla,el-Omari.
Buto forms further North West Delta.(4400-3000.bC)
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk//naqadan/map1.html

http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk//maps/index.html

Tatenen districts lower Egypt

Taposiris Megale (Magna)
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/taposiris.htm
Alexandria
Abu Qir (Kanopus)
Schedia
Kafr Ad-Dawwar
Idku
Rashid (Rosetta)
Tell el-Ahmar (Metelis?)
Damanhur (Hermouplis Parva)
Phragonis
Buto
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/buto.htm
Kopret
Naukratis
Kom el-Hisn
Andron
Kabasa
Kafr El-Sheikh
Sakha (Xois)
Sais
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sais.htm
Basyun
Kafr Az-Zayyt
Taubah
Tanta
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 03:04 AM                   
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Thanks Ian;

"Great are the works of Atlantis that people will come to realize that Atlanteans still walk upon the face of the Earth today.

Bring forth the Critics so Atlantis may grow in strength as they have for almost 3 millenia and will continue thanks to our research and those who know Atlantis.

The Spirit of Atlantis bows to no man, as the Basques also sustained in the same belief, preserving their cultures from 40,000.bC."-Riven
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

Peter V

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Member # 71

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   posted 08-07-2005 11:14 AM                   
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Have I said something to offend you Riven?

What did I say that was wrong about Aristotle?

"Are you just here to advertise your Egyptian Itinerary Tours or do you share a genuine interest for Atlantis?"

Have I said a single thing about my tours? I'm here because I first registered in 1998, that's 7 YEARS ago, when I believed Atlantis might have been a historical entity. Since then my opinions have changed as I became aware of more and more evidence, and I've stuck around for the conversation. Don't judge my intentions here, your're a newbie.

"Have you read and studied Timaeus or just the Westcar Papyrus"

Both. Can you name another Egyptian papyrus?

"Prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid."

Easy. Quarry marks.

"Prove that the glory of Egypt is hers and hers alone?"

Again, easy. Read a book. Explore the evidence. Stop dreaming.

I beg to differ.

"I know that palaeolithic cultures formed in Upper Egypt 700,000 years ago with their Nubian Intelligence that took them until 3000.bC to become known in Lower Egypt, a land originaly of different people."

Thats a belief, not a theory. You're ignoring known evidence to make yourself feel better. That's fine, but don't try to pass it off as history.
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Posts: 4445 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 1999   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 12:44 PM                   
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7 years of intellectual "Crap".

Inside your head Peter, you believe that Atlantis was a figment of Plato's imagination.

You have yet to contribute a positive reference for Atlantis and seem to only interject little inuendos to downplay others, judging from 7 years of your posts here in AR.

In short, you only see what you want to see that satisifies your known intelligence, which at best, is Egypt and what all the other sycophants teach you.

Quarry marks as proof for the Great Pyramid?

You'll have to do better than that.

Maybe your next move will be to tell me that Khufu left his name inside the pyramid?

Try again.

Can you carbon date those quarry marks?
They could have been put there at any time.

Ah, yes, but what about the piece of wood stuck in a corner that Zawi Hawass refused to have carbon dated?

Ah, yes, the Dark Brothers who also dismiss the emerald tablets of Thoth as you do.

Your only responses are where's the proof.

What kind of person who claims to be an uprising archaeologist would dismiss cultures that I have mentioned, such as Capsians, Aterians, Tarxiens and demand "Proof".

Egypt, like Mesopotamia, is a great lie.

The proof will come young apprentice.

2575 years may have passed for inane sycophants such as yourself, but now,today

Riven is here.
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003

[Tina Walter]

 
Ulf Richter

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Member # 1190

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   posted 08-07-2005 02:56 PM                   
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Peter V,

Welcome on this thread! I still remember your posts from earlier times.

It will be very useful for our discussions if we have somebody here who knows more about archeology in Egypt as we can know, only from books and websites.

Plato´s Atlantis is linked with Egypt, because there was the source for Solon´s narration. Solon translated all Egyptian names he heard into Greek; so also the name "Atlantis" is a Greek one and this country/empire might have been named in Egypt quite different.
Do you know any inscription from Old Egypt which possibly could refer to a foreign country or people of any name, which showed some similarity with the description in Plato´s dialogues ?

--------------------
Ulf

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Posts: 782 | From: Schwabenheim, Germany | Registered: Sep 2002   
 

[Tina Walter]

docyabut
Member
Member # 117

Rate Member   posted 08-07-2005 05:34 PM                   
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Khufu built the Great Pyramid.

The emerald tablets of Thoth only came to light in this century?

Poor Socrates was condemed to death for denying the existence of the Greeks gods.

Plato most likey wrote the story to save himself. He claims the story is true. However to as what parts are true is another story. The only real clue is he states that Atlantis faced the country what was now called Gade or Gadir in his time.   
http://www.ancientroute.com/pictures/01520.jpg
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Posts: 7896 | From: toledo .ohio | Registered: Mar 2000   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 05:44 PM                   
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Ulf:

It would be nice to have an Egyptologist that could concure some information relative TO and FOR Atlantis.

It would be nice if people stopped BLAMING PLATO for a legend that was not his in the first place.

But Solon's from Sais,Egypt.

Plato can not make up what is not his to make up.

Plato, simply wrote what his family left for him.

Chalcidius cleverly hid his legend in Timaeus.

No one else. no aristotle, no Zeno, no Herodotus.

Chalcidius.

Regardless if the legend was re written..
The Song Remains the Same - Led Zeppelin.

To say it was something else, then you would have to call it something else for you can not and are not entitled to use "ATLANTIS".

Such as Robert Sarmast should realize.
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003

[Tina Walter]

Riven

Member
Member # 1495

  posted 08-07-2005 06:01 PM                   
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docyabut;

If Snofru, Khufu's father, could build a better Pyramid than Khufu, how is it that Khufu could build a Great Pyramid?

The Sons of Snofru, or the Trismegistus of Pharaohs,as I like to think of, were destined for 200 years of darkness upon Egypt which they also knew of. There was no great works destined to them as the Oracles revealed other than the Sun Temples and the reversion to Seth.

The Good Shepherd,Philitis was upon Egypt, the prodigal child was to be born, 3rd in line of the sons of Khufu, but.....

...not of the royal blood of their line (Westcar Papyrus-Tale of the Magician/Book of Thoth)

Finally, Menkaure let the light shine forth. But he was not the prodigal Royal Child to rule Egypt.

Like The Bible, The Emerald Tablets of Thoth had a different,but true meaning. They both were the hidden mysteries of knowledge. The Tablets came about from the Books of Thoth, mysterious to some,but not all.


Plato did no such thing. His main purpose in Sicily was to re-organize the government in anticipation of war which Plato was hoping for a way to avoid the war, which failed after his 2nd attempt and return to Sicily.

Dionysus 2's, father, Dionysus 1 did resort to a means of "force", but only for Plato to teach him knowledge so he could be a greater King. There is no evidence that Plato was forced to write Atlantis, which he did at his leisure in his work to preserve history and his family.

[ 08-07-2005, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Riven ]
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Posts: 4050 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

Absonite

Member
Member # 1766

  posted 08-07-2005 06:06 PM                   
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silly man.
when will you realize that it was the mediterranean. nothing else makes sense. there was nothing in the atlantic but water.
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Posts: 2197 | Registered: Dec 2003