INTERNATIONAL MILOS CONFERENCE 2005 :ATLANTIS (Ulf Richter)

[Tina Walter]

docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 08-21-2005 08:38 PM                   
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I` m with Peter on this one, anyone knows the Egyptains built the pyramids.The Atlantians did not build the pyramids.
Time was counted different in ancient times, just as in the Bible. I mean who really lives to be 900 hundred years old. 

The Atlantains had the wheel, but ancient Egyptains did not?
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Posts: 7892 | From: toledo .ohio | Registered: Mar 2000   

[Tina Walter]

docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 08-21-2005 08:53 PM                   
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Archaeologists also believe that around 7000-6000.bC, their was a vast and sudden disappearance of cultures in Lower Egypt. A climate change is what cause most civilizations to leave their settlements and start over.
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Posts: 7892 | From: toledo .ohio | Registered: Mar 2000   

[Tina Walter]

Ian Nottingham

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   posted 08-21-2005 11:11 PM                   
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Thank you for that list, Riven, and yet, you'll notice it doesn't include the time that the Egyptian gods themselves were said to rule. Didn't I see that listed in one of your other threads?


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I` m with Peter on this one, anyone knows the Egyptains built the pyramids.The Atlantians did not build the pyramids.
Time was counted different in ancient times, just as in the Bible. I mean who really lives to be 900 hundred years old.

The Atlantains had the wheel, but ancient Egyptains did not?
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And yet, to accept Tartessos as the basis for Atlantis would be to go against all that Plato says in his dialogues, Docyabut.

Plato says that both the ancient Athenians and the Atlanteans pre-date Egyptian civilization, whil Tartessos came two millenia after Egypt was even founded. Of course, one of the other posters will now come along and say that Plato was translated wrong, somewhere down the line, but the time period is repeated several times, there can be no mistake.

The Egyptian priest says both ancient Athens and Atlantis came first.

So the question actually is whether you believe in this ancient Atlantis or whether you don't believe in it.
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Posts: 240 | From: the void | Registered: Nov 2004

[Tina Walter]

Erick Wright

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   posted 08-21-2005 11:22 PM                   
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Ian,

Being that this thread is about the conference, I can tell you that one of the most commonly agreed upon points at the conference was that Plato described a Late Bronze Age society, and that there are definite problems associated with Plato's time frame of 9,500 BC.

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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com

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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   

[Tina Walter]

Ian Nottingham

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   posted 08-21-2005 11:53 PM                   
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Erick,

Is a late Bronze Age society so hard to replicate in an earlier time? We aren't talking about the ability to make cars or airplanes or performing trips to the moon, but rather the ability to smelt metals.

Also, it could just be possible that Atlantis wasn't a late Bronze Age society, but rather that was a detail embellished by Plato, who would have added details that he was most familiar with (having been living in one himself).
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Posts: 240 | From: the void | Registered: Nov 2004

[Tina Walter]

Erick Wright

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   posted 08-22-2005 12:11 AM                   
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Riven,


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I often wonder Erick, how your Homonyms would translate if you never knew about the Sea Peoples?

To myself it seems that this was the subconscious guiding force behind your work.
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A very good point, Riven, and one that I have given (and continue to give) serious consideration to. Thankfully, the whole of my research would not become jeopardized if this turned out to be the case. For instance, the meanings of the Greek names alone tell their own message without having to translate them back into the Egyptian language and examine their homonyms.

“lord shining”
“renowned”
“glorious”
“white horse”
“enduring”
“hilly, craggy land" (i.e., hill-country)
“rich in sheep”
“on both sides”
“well-skilled”
“to remind”
“natives”
“horse-driving” or “horse-riding”
“advisor, counselor”
“dry, parched” (i.e., drought)
“distinguished” (i.e., over all others)

But again, in regards to the hieroglyphic homonyms, in my paper I am careful to point out the hurtles yet to clear.


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The questions, difficulties, and problems arising from this study of the character names seem almost countless. First, there are the problems associated with the archaism and fallibilty of Budge’s Dictionary. Furthermore, his dictionary spans the Egyptian language over its entire history, with little or no distinction made as to which period of Egyptian history (i.e., Early, Middle, and Late) each word belongs to. The problematic nature of his hieroglyphic dictionary will require that a new and separate study be undertaken, in which each word listed in this paper is examined and a determination made as to which period of Egyptian history it is associated with. In order to prove that the results of this study are not erroneous or coincidental, it will be necessary for me to demonstrate that all of the words listed in this paper are associated with the Late Egyptian Period (i.e., Eighteenth Dynasty onward to the Twenty-fifth Dynasty), specifically, the period surrounding the battles between the Egyptians and so-called ‘Sea Peoples’ during the reign of Rameses III (ca. 1200 BC). This process has already begun, however, it, too, is fraught with difficulty, as the lexicons do not appear to be exhaustive. For instance, the name or title of ‘Ss’ is known to be a name or title of Rameses III, a name by which his daughters addressed him, and it is inscribed upon the walls of his mortuary temple. Budge provides a reference source for this listing in his dictionary but I can find no listing for this word in a modern dictionary of Late Egyptian (Lesko, 2004). This is probably because they did not include any name listings in their dictionary. This means that additional lexicons will need to be consulted. Attempts at cross-referencing the word ‘horse’ (ss) have even proven to be difficult thus far. The word ss is known to be Semitic in origin, and the appearance of the word for horse does not occur in the ancient Egyptian language prior to the Eighteenth Dynasty, when horses were introduced into Egypt. Budge’s dictionary clearly shows a hieroglyphic inscription consisting of two ‘s’ phonemes and the horse determinative. Unfortunately, he does not cite any reference source for this word in his dictionary and I can find no listing in a dictionary of either Middle Egyptian (Faulkner, 2002) or Late Egyptian.
One question associated with this study is whether the synonymous Greek and Egyptian words and the homonymous ancient Egyptian words cited in this paper, regardless of whether they can all be demonstrated to belong to the Late Egyptian period, can also be demonstrated to conform to the ancient Greek definition of synonyms and homonyms. In modern English, homonymy and synonymy define relationships between words. For instance, words that are spelled the same and pronounced the same, but possess different meanings are considered to be homonymous. Two words that are spelled differently and pronounced differently, but possess similar meanings are considered to be synonymous. For the ancient Greeks, homonymy and synonymy defined the relationship of things, not of words. Aristotle believed that things are homonymous if the same word applies to two things, but not in regards to the same definition (ex. zôion). He believed that things are synonymous if the same word applies to them both in regards to a single definition. For the purposes of this study, it will be important for me to first determine whether Plato shared those beliefs, or whether he had his own definitions, separate and distinct from Aristotle’s. A comparison of the relationship between the words and their meanings in the Greek and Egyptian languages to Aristotle’s distinctions regarding homonymous and synonymous things has not yet been conducted, and I am hopeful that this paper will serve to aid me in procuring assistance for this particular portion of my research. Additionally, any study of the homonymous nature of things between different languages must then also be accompanied by an examination and determination regarding the coincidental or non-coincidental nature of the homonymy.
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Incidentally, Riven, if you paid close attention to what was written in my paper, you'll notice I said that the Egyptian hieroglyphic word for "horse" doesn't exist in Egypt prior to the 18th Dynasty. Therefore, if you wish to stick to the letter of the law in regards to where Plato's text says the story came from, then you are left no choice but to conclude that Solon could not have been told a story that occurred prior to the 18th Dynasty. If he did actually translate the meanings of the names from the Egyptian hieroglyphic language into the Greek language, and one of the names means "white horse", and the word horse did not exist in the Egyptian language prior to the 18th Dynasty, then the story had to have occurred sometime during or after the 18th Dynasty. It is a clear marker for an "upper limit" of the story's age. Just thought you'd like to know.

Regards,

Erick

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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com

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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

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  posted 08-22-2005 01:11 AM                   
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Erick:

With or without Atlantis,your research would not be jeopardized, but perhaps a milestone for scholars and literaturists to view two old nations in a new understanding of each other in relation to glyphs to attica and attica to glyphs.

Manetho,was one of the few, which because of him we see the resemblence of 10 Kings with those of Atlantis.

Then,as you say, to prevent jury prudencis, we have to feel comfortable with our facts and translations, which is very difficult in a distorted world of knowledge.

For all we know we could be entirely wrong, but unlikely for the Rosetta Stone. But did we interpret the right meaning from the proper names?

How can we arrive at this meaning between nations and languages?

There can only be one answer, unity or a unitotalatarian theory such as Linear A or B deriving from Glyphs or pictograms.

True,as you say Erick, and any honest researcher would admit, such as Atlantis influences my work,that we would be prone to such conclusions.

This is something that I meant in my opening statement of Atlantika Deukalogiea when I mentioned for one to sail the Seas of Ulysses,and the straight path.

Like relationships, we have to put our blinders on and let the truth flow within, without prejudices,or biases, or hallowed eyes of lust.

So,as you see, I also do not "dominate my theory" and also discuss with others and their theories, which I also provide clues and help for them as well. Keeping an open mind.

If I should be misguided or led astray, then I shall be reminded by our other valiant researchers and admit the versatility of adaption.

It's bad enough now having to contemplate Critias and the buffered account.

However,key notes remain factual,such as the rule of Atlantis in the Mediterranean.

So my theories, like yours Erick, are also infalliable because,through the mind of Critias, even if he did "buffer the legend for the sake of reality", We can still see through his eyes when he was standing on Delos and envisioning the Atlantean control around the mediterranean and how pieces of his story came together.

Exactly as Plato "copied".

To be honest, the end result of that Atlantic Map my research led me to, has to be the best vision of the Atlantean city we've seen in along time, even if the bough breaks.

http://www.mts.net/~perasa/Satelite_x4_Atlantis_Riven.JPG

Other than fantasy artwork and concentric circles or countless of Atlantis books.

This is something we can actually compare and see for ourselves with the real Earth.

When I discover the Truth behind Cybele........The Pillars of Hercules will glow.

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.111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.

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Posts: 4048 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003 

[Tina Walter]

José María de la Rosa

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Member # 2614

Rate Member   posted 08-22-2005 01:23 AM                   
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quote:
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Originally posted by Erick Wright:
Ian,

Being that this thread is about the conference, I can tell you that one of the most commonly agreed upon points at the conference was that Plato described a Late Bronze Age society, and that there are definite problems associated with Plato's time frame of 9,500 BC.
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Dear Erick... Would like to be able to say I to some interesting things in relation to tsunamis, to Island Spartel and the chronology of Atlantis, but since I have given my word of not publishing messages in this Topics his, I very would be thanked for if you mine goes to a Topic where there will be a message for you.

Please, he follows east Link:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001274&p=2

[ 08-22-2005, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: José María de la Rosa ]

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Posts: 372 | Registered: Jul 2005 

[Tina Walter]

Peter V

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   posted 08-22-2005 08:45 AM                   
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I'm not wedded to any particular belief system when it comes to Egypt, Erick & Peter. My only belief (if it is a belief) is that people who think they know all about what happened in the past are mistaken. Egyptology has yet to produce evidence to back up half of it's claims, especially where the Pyramids of Giza are concerned. I'm open to new interpretations, and willing to change my mind if the evidence presents itself.
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Evidence has already been presented. You seem to ignore it. You also will not find one Egyptologist who believes they know everything about Egypt's past.


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C-14 isn't perfect, and, while Peter says that the C-14 shows the exact same date throughout the dating of the mortar throughout the pyramid, I've heard that the top has measured older than the rest, which seems odd.
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I never would have said that C-14 shows an absolute date. It doesn't. While it is true that dates from the top of the pyramid were older, this what we would expect if the Egyptians were using a stockpile of material to produce the mortar. The higher the pyramid rises, the deeper they dig into their stockpile of supplies, with the oldest material at the bottom.

Also, while the average dates of these samples were a little older than the reign of Khufu, the samples indicate that the chronology of the Giza Plateau assigned to it by Egyptologists is correct (i.e. Khufu, Khafre, Sphinx, Menkaure).


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Peter also said there is mounting evidence that Khufre built the Great Pyramid, but the only evidence I have seen is the inscriptions, which (sorry Peter), a lot of people still say are misspelled.
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There is more than one set of inscriptions and they are not incorrectly spelled. Read them yourself. KH(sieved sundisk) - u(snail) - f (bird) - u(snail).


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What dates were the other inscriptions discovered, anybody know?
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Other quarry marks were found at the same time. Recently discovered pieces of the causeway also bear Khufu's name.


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You are right that each of us should be citing our sources when we'e quoting our information, and wish that Peter and Riven would both do that.
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Asking for sources is never unreasonable and in the future I will to my best to provide them. The problem is that I've digested this material some time ago from so many different sources I don't know if I could specifically guide you to the right one.
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Posts: 4445 | From: Canada | Registered: Dec 1999   

[Tina Walter]

José María de la Rosa

Member
Member # 2614

Rate Member   posted 08-22-2005 10:44 AM                   
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Dear Peter...

Georgeos Diaz-Montexano maintained a long debate with many students of Egypt who continued believing the false hypothesis of Sitchin that the graffittis of the GP of Khufu or Kheops were a falsification made by Wyse; but Diaz-Montexano was able to convince until the most faithful followers of Zekarias & company, of which the error was of these and not a fraud of Wyse.

The Webiste with all evidences contributed by Diaz-Montexano takes a pair of years in Internet, but it is in Spanish. Of all ways, I offer the Link, because for somebody like you that you must know enough good the Egyptian hieroglyphics, will be able to understand most of the articles ,that in addition have many graphical evidences reunited by Diaz-Montexano in their trips to Egypt.

Please, he follows east Link:
http://www.flashbuilder.net/users/georgeoskheops/

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Posts: 372 | Registered: Jul 2005   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

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Member # 1495

  posted 08-22-2005 01:02 PM                   
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Jose:


I find it very interesting when I looked at the first picture of Khufu in the link you provided it mentioned the Spanish word for "Statue" as
"estatuilla".

Recently, if you may know, I showed the people the "Great Plain of "Tutuilla" where Fiji and Samoa lie east of Australia on the Queen Mothers veil of her dress (natural land formation).

ESTATUILLA

TUTUILLA.

Seems like there is a connection between Spain and the far East!

Strange.
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Posts: 4048 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

Riven

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  posted 08-22-2005 01:14 PM                   
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Erick;

I find it very strange that the Egyptians didn't have a heiroglyph for "horse" before the 18th Dynasty as you say.

Especially when we know in the 15th-16th Intermediate Dynasties, the Hyksos introduced the Chariot to Egypt.

I'll have to research this.

Do you know why that is? It seems almost improbable to believe.

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.111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.

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Posts: 4048 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Tina Walter]

José María de la Rosa

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Rate Member   posted 08-22-2005 01:23 PM                   
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Dear Riven...

The Spanish word "estatuîlla" (tiny statue), is a diminutive of the Spanish word "estatûa" (statue).

Therefore I do not believe that it has no relation like which you propose...¡?

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Greetings, José M. de la Rosa."had for his portion the extremity (ακρας) of the island nearer (προς) of the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), in (on, upon) the part of the country now called Gadeira(Cadiz)"

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Posts: 372 | Registered: Jul 2005

[Tina Walter]

Erick Wright

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   posted 08-22-2005 07:00 PM                   
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Riven,

The Hyksos did rule Northern (Lower) Egypt during the Middle Kingdom Period, but it was during the so-called "Thebean Offensive" of Ahmose (ca. 1539 B.C.), in the Second Intermediate Period, that we find the first appearance of a hieroglyph for a horse and chariot.


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Horses

Introduced by the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period on a large scale (along with the chariot), the horse did not become common until the New Kingdom. Donkeys were used for transportation and as pack animals, rather than the horses - they were used for ceremonial processions, hunting and war where they were harnessed to the chariot. The only evidence of horses being ridden were where individual soldiers were shown mounted on them during some battle scenes of the New Kingdom.
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Source: http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/egypt_animals.html


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Egyptian

The chariot, together with the horse itself, was introduced to Egypt during the reign of the Hyksos dynasty in the 16th century BC. In the remains of Egyptian and Assyrian art there are numerous representations of chariots, from which it may be seen with what richness they were sometimes ornamented. The chariots of the Egyptians and Assyrians, with whom the bow was the principle arm of attack, were richly mounted with quivers full of arrows. The Egyptians invented the yoke saddle for their chariot horses in ca. 1500 BC. The best preserved examples of Egyptian chariots are the six specimens from the tomb of Tutankhamun.
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Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_chariot#Egyptian


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Under Ahmose

Ahmose, the first king of the Eighteenth Dynasty, may have been on the Theban throne for some time before he resumed the war against the Hyksos.

The details of his military campaigns are taken from the account on the walls of the tomb of another Ahmose, a soldier from El-Kab, a town in southern Upper Egypt, whose father had served under Seqenenra Tao II, and whose family had long been nomarchs of the district. It seems that several campaigns against the stronghold at Avaris were needed before the Hyksos were finally dislodged and driven from Lower Egypt. When this occurred is not known with certainty. Some authorities place the expulsion as early as Ahmose's fourth year, while Donald Redford, whose chronological structure has been adopted here, places it as late as the king's fifteenth year. The soldier Ahmose specifically states that he followed on foot as King Ahmose rode to war in his chariot. This is the first mention of the use of the horse and chariot by the Egyptians.
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Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

If the first mention of the chariot was in the 16th century during the reign of Ahmose, and this is the first time the horse is pictured in hieroglyphs, then that would make the earliest appearance of the horse hieroglyph sometime around 1539 BC. This would therefore be the earliest time period from which the Atlantis story could have come in order for Solon to have translated the meaning of "white horse" into the Greek name "Leukippe". 1539 B.C. therefore stands as our "upper limit" for the appearance of any Egyptian Atlantis story. Prior to this they would not have possessed the word for "horse" in their language.

Sorry, Riven. I know that probably hurts a little.

Warm Regards,

Erick

P.S. - Did you get my pictures?

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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com

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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   

[Tina Walter]

Erick Wright

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Member # 1145

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   posted 08-22-2005 08:51 PM                   
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Ian,


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Is a late Bronze Age society so hard to replicate in an earlier time? We aren't talking about the ability to make cars or airplanes or performing trips to the moon, but rather the ability to smelt metals.
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First, how can you replicate something in an earlier time? A replica is a copy of something. Your question suggests that all of the Bronze Age peoples copied what they knew from an earlier civilization that had the technology prior to them. This would mean that the "earlier" civilization possessed Bronze Age technology in the middle of the Stone Age. That would have them existing inside a vacuum in space and time. The development of mankind has repeatedly been shown to be generally linear in progression - with only a few minor lateral exceptions. Your suggestion would have them moving forward, then backward, then forward again. It just makes no sense.

Second, I think that you're understating the achievements of the ancient metal workers. The development of bronze was a huge technological achievement for the ancients. Just because the achievements in their time may pale in comparison to the achievements in our own time, that doesn't make their achievements any less important. Remember, our achievements were built upon the achievements of those who came before us. We were able to make cars and planes and fly to the moon because of the development of metallurgy.


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Also, it could just be possible that Atlantis wasn't a late Bronze Age society, but rather that was a detail embellished by Plato, who would have added details that he was most familiar with (having been living in one himself).
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First, Plato actually lived in the Iron Age. Second, the Greeks of Plato's time were fairly ignorant in regards to their Bronze Age ancestors. Third, if we begin assigning embellishments to Plato's story, then where does it end? And who decides what is embellishment and what is not? The true solution for Plato's Atlantis should be able to account for all the elements in the story without having to resort to eliminating anything. It should explain everything and exempt nothing.

Regards,

Erick

[ 08-22-2005, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Erick Wright ]

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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com

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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002