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Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter

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Aatlae
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2008, 11:12:56 pm »

 
atalante
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   posted 09-09-2004 07:03 AM                   
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Plato's choice of words makes it unlikely that Atlantis was located in what modern people call the Ocean.
Bodies of salt water are separated into 3 sizes:
gulf (small), sea (medium), and ocean (large).

Plato consistently stated that Atlantis was located in or on a SEA (pelagos).

And to be more precise, Plato never used the word "ocean" as a location for Atlantis.
(This is one of the most impressive items which I noticed in the research of Georgeos).


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-09-2004).]


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Aatlae
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2008, 11:13:19 pm »

Tom Hebert
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  posted 09-09-2004 07:20 AM                   
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Yep, Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean. It was also called "open sea", while the Mediterranean was only called a "harbor".
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I agree with Smiley. If Plato can call the Mediterranean a harbor, then the Atlantic could easily be referred to as a sea. We have to consider that Plato is speaking relatively.

Also, it is important to look at his dialogues in context.

Tom



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Aatlae
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2008, 11:13:40 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 09-10-2004 09:06 AM                   
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In Libya, in the region of "Tritonis Lake" (which was in this time still connected with the Mediterranean), according to Diodorus Siculus (ca.90-21BC) was the home of the tribe of the Amazons. They were a race of warlike women and fearsome warriors who conquered many nations, including their neighbours in the west, the Atlanteans, with their city of Cerne in north Africa. But they made peace with the Atlanteans and fought together against the Gorgons (another Libyan tribe), against Egypt under pharaoh Horus and at least, after a treaty with Horus, made a campaign against Anatolia.

Diodorus collected information about the Amazons for his book "Bibliotheca Historica" (Historical Library) from the book “Kyklos” of Dionysios of Mytilene (2th century BC), who got his information during his studies in the famous library of Alexandria from older books of Linos and Timoites (now lost).

According to the stories, the Atlanteans inhabited a rich country bordering the Atlantic ocean. The Atlanteans were notable for their hospitality to strangers and boasted that the gods were born among them. They claimed Uranus as their first King, and it was he who civilized the people "causing them to dwell in cities and till the soil". After his death, Uranus' 45 children divided the Kingdom when Atlas (one of the Titans) received the area of Atlantis and named it for himself. Atlas was a wise ruler and like his father was a great astrologer. Since he was the first one to discover the knowledge of the sphere, the people have created a legend saying that he bears the world upon his shoulders. His seven daughters, Atlantides, were adored as goddesses, and their offspring were the first ancestors of several nations, including Greek civilization.
http://www.auburn.edu/~downejm/sp/epsaas/epsaasDiod.html http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/amazons.html

This story does not meet exactly the narration of Plato, but it shows, that Atlantis and Libya were connected since old times.


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Aatlae
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2008, 11:14:01 pm »

Absonite

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  posted 09-10-2004 10:31 AM                   
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Ulf,
You wrote:
"Atlas was a wise ruler and like his father was a great astrologer. "
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There is no such thing as a "Great Astrologer". It is an oxymoron, with the emphasis on moron.

many thousands of supposedly intelligent people still believe that one may be born under the domination of a lucky or an unlucky star; that the juxtaposition of the heavenly bodies determines the outcome of various terrestrial adventures. Fortunetellers are still patronized by the credulous.

The courses of the stars in the heavens have nothing whatever to do with the events of human life on earth. Astronomy is a proper pursuit of science, but astrology is a mass of superstitious error.

This pseudo science of Babylon developed into a religion throughout the Greco-Roman Empire. Even in the twentieth century man has not been fully delivered from this superstitious belief.

Perhaps Atlas and his father were great astronomers and they simply did not have the proper word for it in those days; but they certainly were not great astrologers.



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Aatlae
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2008, 11:14:26 pm »

atalante
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   posted 09-15-2004 06:20 AM                   
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Ulf,
If Egypt had records about the Atlantean Invasion (or War), and espectially since Plato wrote that the Atlanteans controlled Libya as far east as the border of Egypt, then any meaningful explanation of Atlantis needs some connection to Libya.
In your last post, about Diodorus and his Amazon/Atlantean stories, I noticed an interesting issue.

If the mythical Amazons (i.e. Libya) made war againt the Egyptian god-king Horus, this could supply a crucial linkage.

Diodorus seems to be implying that the Egyptian god-king Set (who attacked Horus the Elder and poked out one eye of Horus) corresponds to Diodorus's Amazons.

Modern Berbers may be the cultural descendents of both the Amazons and Set.




[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-15-2004).]


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Aatlae
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2008, 11:14:57 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 09-15-2004 07:55 AM                   
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atalante,
Certainly it could be useful to look at any mention of the Libyans in Egyptian texts, if they could have to do with Atlantis. On the other hand, not necessarily must the Libyans always have been allied with the Atlanteans; from Plato´s text we know it only for the time of the war.

The Berbers are often described as descendants of the old Libyans, and the so called Tifinag alphabet of the Touaregs, a surviving Berber tribe, might well have had its roots in the alphabet of Atlantis.

Just two months ago a book was edited in Germany, which is locating Atlantis itself near the lake Tritonis in Algeria.

Ulrich Hofmann: Platons Insel Atlantis, 264 pages, edited by Books on Demand, 2004

In the book is no hint to an english website, but I remember that there existed a website with the same location.
I will read the book in the next weeks to find out if something interesting is to be found there for our topic.

Unfortunately I have no time now for further discussion, because I leave my home for about 4 weeks.

Greetings from Ulf


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Aatlae
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2008, 11:15:26 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 01-25-2005 07:38 AM                   
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In my last post I wrote about the book:
Ulrich Hofmann: Platons Insel Atlantis (Plato´s island Atlantis), 264 pages, edited by Books on Demand, 2004
Hofmann looks at the predynastic cultures in Egypt, especially the so called Naqada I (4000 – 3600 BC) , and found close relations between their customs of burying their dead and decorating their ceramics with those in north west Africa. Already Flinders Petrie, the first explorer of the “Naqada culture”, thought that these peoples would have had immigrated from the west, from Libya. They decorated their ceramic vessels with ship patterns, and also among the rock engravings from this time are many ships.
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/02_edpetros.html
> The earliest historic record of seafaring ships that can be found seem to be the Neolithic petroglyphs or rock art that are found in the Egyptian eastern desert.
Many of these patterns have been dated to the Naqada period of Egyptian history which covers approximately the period of 4500-3100 BCE <<

It seems that the ships with the high bows and sterns (as the boat on the Phaistos disk) were sea-going vessels and not only river boats, and that the immigrants (or traders) came from the Mediterranean and from the West. Remembering Plato´s statement that Libya was part of the empire of Atlantis, it is probable that we can see Atlantean ships in the ship petroglyphs of the Egyptian Eastern Desert .

Hofmann thinks that the first high culture in Egypt, long before the first dynasty, was coming from the west, from Atlantis-Libya, and that also among the first pharaohs and their wives were descendants of the “Tehenu” (Libyans).

Also the “Gebel el-Arak knife”, from prehistoric Egypt, Naqada II (3500 – 3100 BC) shows boats of the “Phaistos disk” type, as Riven has found out. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/gebelea.html
>The other interesting thing is that the foreigners being attacked with the long hair look like the Maxyans as described by Herodotus. Definitely Libyan ancestors I would say. < (Riven)

It seems worthwile to make further study on the relations between early Libyans (Atlanteans) and early Egypteans



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Aatlae
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2008, 11:15:51 pm »

atalante
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   posted 01-25-2005 09:21 AM                   
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Ulf,
You provided an excellent link about ancient ships, which claims the oldest ship drawings are located in Egypt's Eastern Desert, between the Nile River and the Red Sea.
That region also contains ruins of the oldest known gold mines. Ancient ships may have been used to transport the ancient gold,
so I am re-posting here a message which I previously put in the Zep Tepi topic.

atalante
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Research during 2002-2005 has located what is believed to be the earliest goldsmiths in the world. Tentatively the culture is dated 5500-3100 BC. It was located in southeast Egypt, near the Red Sea, in the Valley of Daghbeg.
quote from the Discovery Channel in Feb 2002: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020204/egyptian.html

The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry.

While the exact dates of the mines have yet to be confirmed, researcher Ali Barakat of Egypt's Geological Survey Authority recently told the Egyptian State Information Service that the Egyptians who lived both near the Red Sea and in the Valley of Daghbeg were the world's first goldsmiths.

Barakat added that the ancient Egyptians were the first to map geological charts of gold mines. He also said that they developed an effective technique for extracting gold from quartz veins.
According to Barakat, remnants of tools and ditches suggest that workers would grind stone containing gold into a fine powder. Water would be added to help dissolve deposits. The mixture then was poured into square-shaped basins that would trap sediments and leave the gold for collecting.

...

Although the metal was plentiful, it was reserved for nobility.

"The Egyptians referred to it as the skin, or the flesh, of the gods," she said. "Because of its color, gold was also associated with the sun."

endquote

That article by Discovery Channel was based on a press release in January 2002 by the Egyptian State News Agency. http://www.sis.gov.eg/online/html4/o230821.htm

One very interesting element of this story is that large "channels" have now been discovered in association with perhaps the earliest gold mining culture in the world.

These archaeological finds help to explain the function (i.e. sedimentary ore processing) of some upstream "channels" in Plato's story of Atlantis.

And farthermore, the ancient Egyptians had told Solon/Plato that Atlantis had a massive amount of gold, as reported in Critias 120e-121a. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0180

Critias 120e
Consequently they thought scorn of everything save virtue and lightly esteemed their rich possessions, bearing with ease

[121a] the burden, as it were, of the vast volume of their gold and other goods; and thus their wealth did not make them drunk with pride so that they lost control of themselves


Mythically speaking, this 5500-3100 BC period for Egypt's Daghbeg gold mines can correlate to the "golden age" which was ruled by the Greek god Cronos.







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Aatlae
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2008, 11:16:16 pm »

Smiley4554

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  posted 01-25-2005 10:11 AM                   
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Thanks, Tom.
Absonite: You are the first to point out that the names of the oceans were not what we call them today, but say that the Mediterranean was no harbor based upon what it appears today.


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the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean.
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;


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This description is distinctly separating 2 completely different bodies of water ... i.e. the Atlantic Ocean and the "true ocean" beyond which would be the ocean that you are speaking about.

But, it is quite clear that they are 2 distinctly different bodies of water, and the ancients knew the difference.

Also, in this passage, the location is clear. An island was

quote:
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an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles
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, and this distinctly locates Atlantis in front of the open mouth of the Mediterranean Sea.

quote:
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You think the Mediterranean is just a harbor? Try swimming it sometime.
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You are "assuming" that the Mediterranean has always been as it is now, but it hasn't. There was a time when a whole lot more land was above the Mediterranean Sea's level. So, if we put it into perspective, at one time, the Mediterranean could have been what they would have called a "harbor".

Why do you think that they find so many submerged cities?


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Who called it a harbor?
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This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which you call the Columns of Heracles: the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from the islands you might pass through the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a continent.
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If you note, he said specifically

quote:
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for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance,
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So, yes, he did say that the Mediterranean Sea was a "harbour", but he also was comparing & distinguishing it from the Atlantic Ocean so that no one would get the 2 confused with each other. Whether or not he meant it as such is another matter.


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Aatlae
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2008, 11:16:38 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 01-25-2005 12:32 PM                   
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atalante,
You have pointed to a very important clue:

> The discovery of several mines that date to 5,500-3,100 B.C. in southern Egypt leads researchers there to believe the ancient Egyptians were the first to extract gold and to use the precious metal for making jewelry<

When this part of Egypt was a famous source of gold, it is obvious why the Atlanteans may have travelled there by ship - via Mediterranean and Nile river - to get this precious metal. It is also possible that they, having special experience in gold mining, were exploring new sources and during one of these expeditions came to this remote place, as our today oil explorers are searching everywhere on the globe.

Anyway, the leaders or kings ruling a place where this precious metal was mined and traded, got wealthy and migthy and it is not astonishing therefore, that the first dynasty of Egypt was developing in this area.


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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2008, 11:17:46 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 02-06-2005 12:08 PM                   
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The boat with high prow and stern of the Phaistod disk and the Gebel el Arak knife is also depicted on the Narmer pallet (above right), perhaps it has something to do with the dead enemies?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.toutankharton.com/images/prehistoire/nagadaii_petite.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.toutankharton.com/egyptologie/prehistoire.php&h=187&w=1 61&sz=9&tbnid=HHtKIo8PnBsJ:&tbnh=96&tbnw=83&start=42&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNaqada%
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2008, 11:19:08 pm »

 
Boreas
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   posted 02-06-2005 04:09 PM                   
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6.200 year old carving of ship.
From the famous mesolittic site at Alta, the western neighbour to The North Cape.
http://www.imv.uit.no/ommuseet/enheter/ark/forskning_Alta.htm
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2008, 11:19:36 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 02-10-2005 02:55 AM                   
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Boreas,
thank you for the interesting link. In the "Tribes of Atlantis II" thread you provided also a link which shows a lot of old pictures of the ships with high prow and stern, which probably the Libyans have used to sail to Egypt:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/15Sailors/05sailors1.htm


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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2008, 11:20:10 pm »

Smiley4554

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  posted 02-14-2005 10:13 AM                   
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If the Egyptologists stop @ 3500 BC, and go no further back, and since we have evidence of older civilizations as far back as 6000 BC, then it would appear that they do really have their heads in the sand.
Why? Well it is possible that the reason they want to go no further back is simply because if they do (and they may already know this to be true) they will have to admit that their civilization which appeared almost overnite were not the only advanced civilization to have lived in Egypt.


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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2008, 11:20:41 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 03-18-2005 02:15 PM                   
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Smiley,
you are right that the archeologists don´t pay enough attention to the cultures, which were the forerunners of the first dynasty in Egypt. Flinders Petrie , who detected the Naquada culture 3500 - 3100 BC, was the great exception.


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