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Libya - a part of Atlantis? - Ulf Richter

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Aatlae
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« on: March 26, 2008, 10:58:05 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-30-2004 10:02 AM                   
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Plato wrote in his Timaeus and Critias, that the 10 kings of Atlantis ruled over Libya inside the Columns of Heracles as far as Egypt.
Egyptian inscriptions are frequently mentioning Libya, mostly under hostile circumstances.
Fights against the Libyans are mentioned from early times, long before the Sea Peoples´ war in the time of Rameses III, where the “Libu” were counted as one nation among the “Sea Peoples”

About 2900 BC : King Scorpion performed a victorious military campaign against the Libyans.

About 2600 BC : Another successful campaign against Libya took place under pharaoh Snofru

About 2470 BC : Pharaoh Sahure sent the Egyptian fleet against Libya and won the battle

About 1960 BC : Campaign of an Egyptian army against Libya under pharaoh Sesostris

About 1335 BC : An attack of Libyan warriors into the Nile delta region was beaten off by pharaoh Rameses II

About 1305 BC : Egyptian campaign against Libya

About 1230 BC : Egypteans drove out the Libyans from the Nile delta under pharaoh Merenptah

About 1228 BC : Libyans force their way into the Nile delta and are settling there

About 1193 BC : Rameses III defeats the Libyans in the Nile delta

About 1189 BC : Egyptian fleet under Rameses III defeats a fleet of the Sea Peoples

About 1187 BC : Egyptian army beats off an attack of the Libyans

1085 – 950 BC : Pharaohs are dependent from Libyan mercenaries

950 – 730 BC : Libyan kings rule in Egypt as the 22th dynasty

It seems that the Libyans played for more than 2000 years a very important role in the Mediterranean. The Egyptian inscriptions are naturally containing only their own victories and not the battles won by the Libyans.

What can we deduce from this for our Atlantis problem?



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Aatlae
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 11:01:58 pm »

atalante
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   posted 08-30-2004 11:02 AM                   
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Ulf,
Your list of Egyptian conflicts with the Libyans contains a very good starting point.
According to many modern scholars, the first naval BATTLE in history took place ca 1175 BC when Ramses III defeated the Pelestim.

However, your list describes an entirely different viewpoint for the first naval battle. You show a sea battle ca 2470 BC between the Libyans and Egyptians.

Herodotus agrees with this notion of an ancient naval power which had its homebase in Libya.

Here is what Herodotus tells us about the origin of the Greek pantheon, especially Poseidon/Neptune.

One and only one god came from the Libyans. That is Poseidon/Neptune. In fact, the ONLY country which worshipped Poseidon in ancient times was Libya (at least according to Herodotus).

A handful of female goddesses came from the Pelasgians: Juno, Hestia, Themis, the Graces and the Nereids.

The Dioscuri twins also came from the Pelasgians.

And all the other Greek Gods came from Egypt (at least that is what Herodotus claimed).

quote from: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1314/Lesson1.html
"Almost all the names of the gods came into Greece from Egypt. My inquiries prove that they were all derived from a foreign source, and my opinion is that Egypt furnished the greater number. For with the exception of Neptune and the Dioscuri, whom I mentioned above, and Juno, Vesta, Themis, the Graces, and the Nereids, the other gods have been known from time immemorial in Egypt. This I assert on the authority of the Egyptians themselves. The gods, with whose names they profess themselves unacquainted, the Greeks received, I believe, from the Pelasgi, except Neptune. Of him they got their knowledge from the Libyans, by whom he has been always honoured, and who were anciently the only people that had a god of the name. The Egyptians differ from the Greeks also in paying no divine honours to heroes.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 08-30-2004).]


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Aatlae
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 11:02:41 pm »

Ulf Richter

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   posted 08-30-2004 12:45 PM                   
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atalante,
Unfortunately I do not know more about the military naval expedition in 2470 BC. I found this point in the book "Peter´s Synchronoptical World History", edited 2001 in Munich/ Germany, where all known historical dates are collected in their chronological order of events, but without mentioning the respective source.

But it is certainly not true, that the Libyans were only uncultivated tribes of shepherds.


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Aatlae
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 11:03:09 pm »

Riven

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  posted 08-31-2004 04:39 AM                   
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The Vision is Yours.
What we have shown you all.

Atalante and myself that is.

Atlantis Continental Island
The Egyptian Secrets
Lake Tritonis
Atalantes/Aterians
Cyrene
Atranto
Araklum
Very early Sea battles.
Kings,Queens and in betweens.
Pharaohs,Sparrows and Falcons.

Think of the Egyptian Heiroglyph for Atlantis and you will see the balance of the scales.

2 Falcons facing west
1 lion facing west
2 half suns
1 water symbol
1 reed
1 Crook

It all adds upto Life.

Libya played a very important role with Atlantis where Thoth gathered wisdom and Atlas/Neptune established the last Atlantean stronghold.

If you would like to see the Glyph;
http://www.mts.net/~perasa/

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-31-2004).]


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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 11:03:48 pm »

Catastrophe
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Rate Member   posted 08-31-2004 05:07 AM                   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, ... and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia."

Out of the Atlantic Ocean going east and conquering parts of Libya and as far as Italy."
That puts Atlantis in the Atlantic.





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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 11:04:27 pm »

Absonite

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  posted 08-31-2004 06:55 AM                   
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1) Located in the Atlantic Ocean
Plato was very specific on the fact that Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean.


Indeed, this ocean took this name because it was deemed the "Ocean of the Atlanteans". Hence, Mediterranean locations such as Troy, Crete (Thera), Carthage, the Bosphorus, etc., automatically disqualify as the site of Atlantis.

However, one should carefully recall that what the ancients called by the name of Atlantic Ocean, or others such as Outer Ocean, Kronius Oceanus, Mare Magnum, Mare Oceanum, etc., was not the same one we now address by that name. As we discuss in detail elsewhere, the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean. This difference in nomenclature is essential, for it ties with the root of the problem of Atlantis, and explains why all researchers so far have failed to find the true site of Atlantis.

The ancients figured the world that is, the lands they knew of (Eurasia and Africa), the so-called Ancient World as a roughly circular plate surrounded all around by the Ocean ("Atlantic"). Outside this Circular Ocean, "containing" it, so to speak, was the true "Continent",..
.... As a matter of fact, the very word "Ocean" derives from the Sanskrit acayana meaning "encircling all around".


[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 08-31-2004).]


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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 11:04:56 pm »

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"Indeed, this ocean took this name because it was deemed the "Ocean of the Atlanteans". Hence, Mediterranean locations such as Troy, Crete (Thera), Carthage, the Bosphorus, etc., automatically disqualify as the site of Atlantis."
Agreed!



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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 11:06:27 pm »

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  posted 08-31-2004 09:48 AM                   
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However, one should carefully recall that what the ancients called by the name of Atlantic Ocean, or others such as Outer Ocean, Kronius Oceanus, Mare Magnum, Mare Oceanum, etc., was not the same one we now address by that name. As we discuss in detail elsewhere, the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean. This difference in nomenclature is essential, for it ties with the root of the problem of Atlantis, and explains why all researchers so far have failed to find the true site of Atlantis.
The ancients figured the world that is, the lands they knew of (Eurasia and Africa), the so-called Ancient World as a roughly circular plate surrounded all around by the Ocean ("Atlantic"). Outside this Circular Ocean, "containing" it, so to speak, was the true "Continent",..
.... As a matter of fact, the very word "Ocean" derives from the Sanskrit acayana meaning "encircling all around".

Agreed Cat,
While it is sometimes appropriate to take things out of context, it is not always appropriate.



[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 08-31-2004).]


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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 11:08:24 pm »

atalante
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   posted 09-01-2004 06:10 AM                   
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Pharaoh Sahure's raid on Libya was a topic of public interest AROUND THE TIME WHEN SOLON VISITED EGYPT
I did some checking about Sahure ca 2470 BC, and his navy etc.

The first recorded visit to the distant land of Punt took place under Sahure.

And Sahure had a fleet of ships going to asia (Byblos?), manned by both asiatics and Egyptians.

Sahure's report about his attack on Libya is considered semi-Legendary, because it was plagiarized by two later Pharoahs, including the 25th dynasty pharoah Taharqa (680-664 BC), who ruled Egypt at the same time when Phoenicia was conquored by the Assyrians. During Taharqa's reign, a large number of Phoenician colonists was migrating to the west end of the Mediterranean Sea.

The plagiarizing behavior of Taharka makes it clear that texts about Sahure's "Libyan raid" story could have been available to the priests who told Solon about Atlantis.

quote from: http://encyclozine.com/Sahure
Most foreign relations during the reign of Sahure were economic, rather then combative...

However, this same scene of the Libyan attack was used two thousand years later in the mortuary temple of Pepi II and in a Kawa temple of Taharqa. The same names are quoted for the local chieftain. Therefore, we become somewhat suspicious of the possibility that Sahure was also copying an even earlier representation of this scene.
endquote


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-01-2004).]


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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2008, 11:09:10 pm »

rockessence

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   posted 09-01-2004 10:30 AM                   
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Atalante!
As I mentioned in the other thread where you discussed this same subject:

A possibility that the even earlier reference relates the story of the Baltic Libya, pre-dating the migrations south of all the cultures/tribes maintaining their positions surrounding the Middle-Earth-Sea at the end of the climatic optimum.

See thread HOMER IN THE BALTIC



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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2008, 11:09:45 pm »

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  posted 09-01-2004 10:38 AM                   
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Yep, Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean. It was also called "open sea", while the Mediterranean was only called a "harbor".
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2008, 11:10:36 pm »

Absonite

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  posted 09-01-2004 04:00 PM                   
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Smiley,
What's your point? Are you just taking another meaningless poll? Choosing up sides?
You think the Mediterranean is just a harbor? Try swimming it sometime. How big is this "harbor" from length and width? Any idea? Any idea how many countries it spans? Any idea how many islands it had before the break at Gibraltar?
Any idea how many errors in Plato's he said she said Hearsay tale from Salon? Any idea how many people live around this harbor? Who called it a harbor? Plato? Obviously Plato is another one who doesn't know what he is talking about.
However, one should carefully recall that what the ancients called by the name of Atlantic Ocean, or others such as Outer Ocean, Kronius Oceanus, Mare Magnum, Mare Oceanum, etc., was not the same one we now address by that name. As we discuss in detail elsewhere, the Atlantic Ocean (or simply "Ocean") of the ancients of the times of Plato, Herodotus, Aristotle and others was the whole of the earth encircling ocean. This difference in nomenclature is essential, for it ties with the root of the problem of Atlantis, and explains why all researchers so far have failed to find the true site of Atlantis.


[This message has been edited by Absonite (edited 09-01-2004).]


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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2008, 11:11:19 pm »

atalante
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   posted 09-01-2004 07:54 PM                   
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Pseudo-Aristotle said that the Ocean passes eastward through the Straights of Gibralter, and then widens out into 6 different Gulfs.
It would be nice if we can reach a concensus that the ENTIRE mediterranean region is part of the encircling Ocean. In the quote below, Aristotle is saying that the Ocean flows around Greece (i.e. "around us").

The corresponding quote from pseudo-Aristotle is:
Cf. De mundo syr. 139.16-21, 139.23-140.1 [< gr. 393a 16-21, 23-28]: That sea which is outside the whole Habitable World is called the Atlantic and the Oceanus. It also flows around us here. Because on the west a narrow mouth (fumo aliso) is open to it from the inside – at what are called the Stelae (STLWS) of Hercules – its flow proceeds into this sea by us, as if into some harbour, and thus widens out little by little here, spreading out until it embraces (lobek < perilambánô) the large gulfs which adjoin each other. … It is said first to widen out to the right after proceeding from the Stelae (ST’LS) of Hercules and is divided into two gulfs and passes the islands called the Syrtes, one of which they call the Greater Syrtes and the other the Lesser Syrtes. On the other, northern, side it does not widen out immediately in the same way, but makes there too three gulfs (cubbin),18 that called the Sardinian (SWRDWNYQWN), that called the Galatian (G’LTYQWN) and the Great Adriatic (’DRY’S rabbo). After these is another slanting gulf which is called the Sicilian (SQYLYQWN).


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-01-2004).]


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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 11:11:44 pm »

 
Ulf Richter

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   posted 09-02-2004 02:16 PM                   
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atalante,
it is really interesting what you found out about Sahure and his navy.
And also the remarks in the "570 bC -Atlantis Risen" thread about a possible Libyan sea base in the lake Tritonis, which was in old times connected to the Mediterranean.

Archaeological findings of the Bell Beaker People (2500 - 2000 BC) are known from Morocco, but as far as I know not yet from Libya. This does not say that they could not be there. In this area only few excavations were made up to now.

You have also mentioned the Hyksos dynasty ruling in lower Egypt from about 1767 BC. It is said that the Hyksos (the first who used war chariots) came from Syria or further north. But could they also have had connections with the Libyans?


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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 11:12:31 pm »

atalante
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   posted 09-02-2004 09:49 PM                   
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Ulf,
1) In regard to the Bell Beaker people, I agree that they did not travel ON LAND into Libya.
(They did however, reach a few islands in the western Mediterranean, terminating at the Ascanian , =western, side of Sicily.)
But do you remember when Jonas Bergman first posted his website? Initially it included a link to a college masters thesis, which covered BOTH Morocco and Algeria, as far east as Cape Bon (=Carthage/Utica). Perhaps that link was titled Mzora, but I am not sure.

It turns out that there was a megalithic construction style along the SOUTHWEST coast of the Med, from Gibralter to Cape Bon. These people, or this culture, is in the right place to be using obsidian from a source a little way offshore from Cape Bon. That source of obsidian was the island of Pantelleria.

If this was a unified culture across northwest Africa, then the Bell Beaker people probably only delivered goods to the WESTERN end of that culture. So the Egyptians would only hear rumors about Bell Beaker People, instead of making direct contacts.

and now changing topics:
2) There were two different groups of Hyksos. Dynasty 14 called themselves the Khasus, and seized nome 6 of the Nile Delta, called Xois in Greek language (immediately south of Neith's two nomes, 4 and 5). Then the next dynasty of Hyksos called themselves "overlords of the Kasus", or Hyk Khasu, and ruled from their capital city at Avaris.

The ancient Egyptian story called The Contendings of Set and Horus is talking about the politics of that first Kasu dynasty 14 (becasue it claims the Ennead gods ruled from the the city of Xois, rather than the normal location at Heliopolis). Riven was amused when I pointed out to him that this Egyptian story, The Contendings of Set and Horus, can be regarded as THE LOST ENDING OF PLATO'S CRITIAS. (In that story, Neith is called Neith the Great, meanwhile Zeus is called the Universal Lord.)

I expect that the two dynasties of Hyksos were tied to the general region of Syria, and had very little to do with Libya.

3) Descendents of the Meshwesh were probably the dominant culture, or civilization, in northern Libya during 1200-700 BC.

But then around 700 BC, the 25th dynasty of Egypt conquored the Sais/Meshwesh people, and thus unified Egypt for about a century. In my opinion, this CONQUEST of the Libyan Meshwesh and of Sais is the reason why the 25th dynasty pharoah Taharqa (680-664 BC) plagiarized the old theme of (Sahure) defeating a powerful Libyan adversary.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-02-2004).]


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