Where was Gades/Gadeira?

[Tom Hebert]

He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin
male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he
gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the
surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king
over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many
men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the
first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean
were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and
obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the pillars of
Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in
that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is
Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.
--Jowett

And he begat five pairs of twin sons and reared them up; and when he had divided all the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he assigned to the first-born of the eldest sons [114a] his mother's dwelling and the allotment surrounding it, which was the largest and best; and him he appointed to be king over the rest, and the others to be rulers, granting to each the rule over many men and a large tract of country. And to all of them he gave names, giving to him that was eldest and king the name after which the whole island was called and the sea spoken of as the Atlantic, because the first king who then reigned had the name of Atlas. And the name of his younger twin-brother, [114b] who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Heracles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelus in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeirus,--which fact may have given its title to the country.
--R.G. Bury

Gades is often associated with the Spanish city of Cadiz.  I have no major problem with this, since Cadiz is located near the traditional Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar).  But I was wondering if this is considered to be a fact or merely an assumption.

Why would Plato say that the meaning of Gades is Eumelus in Greek.  Doesn't Gades really come from the Phoenician word for fortress?  Could Cadiz have been named after a now-sunken island?

Any thoughts?

[Gwen Parker]

Hi Tom, I never really gave much thought to it before, but you are right, it really doesn't make any difference what Gades stood for in Greek, since the Phoenicians named it:

Etymology of the city's name

Gadir (in Phoenician: גדר), the original name given to the outpost established here by the Phoenicians, means "castle", "fortress", or, more generally, "walled stronghold" or simply "wall". The name is equivalent to the place-name, Agadir, which is common in north Africa. To this day, "agadir" means "wall" in the Berber language. Gadir became the most important Phoenician enclave on the Iberian Peninsula.


 
1813 Map of CádizLater, the city became known by a similar Attic Greek name, Gadeira, τΓάδειρα. In Ionic Greek, the name is spelled slightly differently: Γήδειρα. This spelling appears in the histories written by Herodotus. Rarely, the name is spelled  Γαδείρα, as, for example, in the writings of Erastosthenes (as attested by Stephanus of Byzantium).

In the Latín language, the city was known as Gades; in modern Arabic, it is called قادس, Qādis.

[Tom Hebert]

Okay, so Cadiz does seem to have some continuous etymology back to Gadeira.  I also found out that Cadiz is considered a region as well as a city.  This would agree with Plato's description.

So does this mean that Plato regarded the Phoenecians as descendants of the original Atlanteans?  And why does he translate the word as meaning Eumelus when it actually means fortress or enclosed wall?

All I can find about Eumelus is that is was the name of several men in Greek mythology.  Would the ancient Greeks have known exactly what Plato was talking about?

I am of a mind to believe that this may be a good example of where Plato "filled in the blanks."

[Ian Nottingham]

Good questions, Tom, and yet, I can't actually see where you are going with it.

Of course, in the story, Plato is giving the Atlanteans dominion over lands he knew the Phoenicians controlled at the time, and yet he makes no mention that the Phoenicians are descendents from them (though they probably were).  He mentions them, in this case to simply establish geographic relationships.

[Tom Hebert]

Hi Ian,

I'm not going anywhere with this.  I'm just trying to understand the mind of Plato.  I enjoy a challenge.

[Danaus]

Pliny the elder says: "Gadir is punic for hedge".

Dictionary.com says hedge means boundary.
************
In my theory, I have proposed the Egyptian city "Gauti"(Canopus) = Gadir.  It is located on the western boundary of Egypt.

[Morrison]

Hi Ian,

I'm not going anywhere with this.  I'm just trying to understand the mind of Plato.  I enjoy a challenge.

Tom, in terms of Gades, it's not difficult to understand. My interepretation simply sets Atlantis somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean and "facing" or "before" Gades simply is another way of locating it there. Georgeos places too much emphasis on it, or course, in order to fit his theory, but (as has been established many, many times over) "nesos" usually means island, which makes him wrong.

[Tom Hebert]

Hi Morrison,

I pretty much agree with what you've said.  I'm not sure why Georgeos would emphasize Gades because if anything it disproves his theory.  If Atlantis was located opposite or facing Gades (Cadiz), then it couldn't possibly be the Iberian peninsula.

What I meant about trying to understand Plato was the question about why Plato said Gades means Eumelus in Greek.  I can't see any connection.  Good storytellers normally don't include extraneous material, so I was just wondering.  I suppose it will forever remain a mystery.

[Danaus]

Nothing stands out to me.  We can make wild guesses.  Georgeos had a wild guess.

Eumelus means rich in sheep.  Gadir means hedge or wall.  Sheep would be kept together in close proximity via a hedge or wall.

I don't really like this explanation, but a bad explanation is better than no explanation.

[atalante]

ancient Greek writers used the phrase "straits of Gadeira" as a name for the place we modern people call the Straits of Gibralter.  Obviously the ancient Greeks did not know the Moslem named Tariq and his Gebel Tariq, which has morphed into the modern word Gibralter. 

The main geographical location beyond Gibralter was called Gaeira by the early Greek writers.  That is why Greeks adopted the phrase Straits of Gadeira.

[Gwen Parker]

Nothing stands out to me.  We can make wild guesses.  Georgeos had a wild guess.

Eumelus means rich in sheep.  Gadir means hedge or wall.  Sheep would be kept together in close proximity via a hedge or wall.

I don't really like this explanation, but a bad explanation is better than no explanation.

Hi Rich, whether you meant it or not, that explanation made me laugh.  Is that really the explanation that he gave for Eumelus/Gadir??

I'm sorry, but I think we can sometimes be in too big of a rush to explain things!  Sometimes, we are just better off admitting that doesn't quite fit and move on.

[julia]

There is a Gediz river near Smyrna(Turkey) also..And in hellenicus` explanation Atlantis was there..But The geography is not suitable for Atlantis..who knows??  :DAnd There is a Gades In the syria If dont remember wrong(Kadesh war)And There is one Tartus In syrian shore  another one in Turkey(Tarsus)

[Tina Walter]

Hi Julia,

hellenicus` explanation Atlantis was there

If you don't mind my asking, where is the passage of Hellenicus that places Gades in Turkey or Asia Minor?

[julia]

Hellanicus doesnt say about Cadiz or Gediz..he only talked about the Tantalus story.According to Platos Critias Cadiz Gadeira)is in Spain..I believe the peninsula of Atlantis was in Spain also..

[atalante]

Its citizens welcomed the victorious Romans, and assisted them in turn to fit out an expedition against Carthage. Thenceforward, its rapidly-growing trade in dried fish and meat, and in all the produce of the fertile Baetis (Guadalquivir) valley, attracted many Greek settlers; while men of learning, such as Pytheas in the 4th century B.C., Polybius and Artemidorus of Ephesus in the 2nd, and Posidonius in the 1st, came to study the ebb and flow of its tides, unparalleled in the Mediterranean. C. Julius Caesar conferred the civitas of Rome on all its citizens in 49 B.C.; and, not long after L. Cornelius Balbus Minor built what was called the "New City," constructed the harbour which is now known as Puerto Real, and spanned the strait of Santi Petri with the bridge which unites the Isla de Leon with the mainland, and is now known as the Puente de Zuazo, after Juan Sanchez de Zuazo, who restored it in the 15th century. Under Augustus, when it was the residence of no fewer than 500 equites, a total only surpassed in Rome and Padua, Gades was made a municipium with the name of Augusta Urbs Gaditana, and its citizens ranked next to those of Rome. In the 1st century A.D. it was the birthplace or home of several famous authors, including Lucius Columella, poet and writer on husbandry; but it was more renowned for gaiety and luxury than for learning. Juvenal and Martial write of Jocosae Gades, " Cadiz the Joyous," as naturally as the modern Andalusian speaks of Cadiz la Joyosa; and throughout the Roman world its cookery and its dancing-girls were famous. In the 5th century, however, the overthrow of Roman dominion in Spain by the Visigoths involved Cadiz in destruction. A few fragments of masonry, submerged under the sea, are almost all that remains of the original city. Moorish rule over the port, which was renamed Jezirat-Kadis, lasted from 711 until 1262, when Cadiz was captured, rebuilt and repeopled by Alphonso X. of Castile. Its renewed prosperity dates from the discovery of America in 1492. As the headquarters of the Spanish treasure fleets, it soon recovered its position as the wealthiest port of western Europe, and consequently it was a favourite point of attack for the enemies of Spain.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Cadiz,_Spain_(Capital)