Chalcidio's Timaeus (in Latin)

[Goliath]

Socrates in exostacinibus suis virtutem laudans cu omiu bonors tociq; pspita tis osistere causam penes eam dice ret. Addidit. solam eam. Ee. que res inpossibiles rediget ad possibi lem facilitate. Pclare. Quid eni genosa magnanimitate. ut agre di pigeat. t ceptu fatiget. utta q uicta difficultatib se teperet a laborea. Eadem est ut opinor uif amicitie. Parq; inpossibilui pene reru extratio. Cu alter ex amicis uibendi religione. alter parendi uoto. coplaciti opis aminiculetur effectui. Concepas animo florente omnib studiis humanitatis excellen tiq; ingenio tuo digna spem puenti opis. Inteptati adhoc tep. Eiq; ufu a grecis latio statueras mutuandu. Et quaq ipse hoc tu facili.tu imo di face posses: credo ppt admirabi lem verecundia. Tu ei poci maluis inuingere. Que te. Ee. alteru iudica res. Possem ne oro te quauis res eet ardua tanto honore habitu de quo ita senseras iniunctu excusare mu nus. Et qnuq ne insolennib quide et usitatis voluntatib ullu offitium recusasse. huic tanto taq; honesto desiderio contradicem. in q. declina tio spetiosi munis. excusatioe ignora tionis.callida.eet.scientie futa simu latio. Itaq; parui. cert sine diuino instuictu. id m a te mun inuingi ppterea alacore mente. Speq; ifirma ciore. pmas partes thimei platonis aggressiis n solii instuli. S; etia eide partis imtariu feci. putans recondi te rei simulacru. sine intpretaciois explanatioe aliquanto obscuri ipso exeplo futuru. Causa uero in parte diuidendi laber fuit opis plixitas. si mul q; cauci videbat. Ee.si taq li bamen aliqd addegustandu aurib atq; aio tuo mittem. Quod cu non displicuisse rescberet. facet auden di maiora fi du ti a os;
Vnys.ii.vi.quarcu enumero uto thimee requiro. qhestni qde epuli quiue fueritis. hodierni pbi tores. invitatores q; ex idicto residea tis. T. languor eu repente ut fit. ore morat. netiise sponte tali cetu. tan teq; rei tractatu.& imunicatione fraudaret. S.b tiu ite hors erit officii. iplere id qd de est. participis absencia. T. Eqiui postulas. Deniq; enitem os p uirib. neq it est fas laute acceptos heri. munoris apparat repsen tare iviviu. S. Tenetis certe memo ria psepta uob ame tctaci normula. T. partun tenem. Inqb posro nuta bit memorta.psens ipse intepe sug geres. immo n eric molestu breuiter ab exordio dicta. demu retexe q di gest ordo solidet. S. ita fiet. Cardo ni fallor disputatiois hefterne. res erat. P. Quat m qb q; institutes.& morib civiu videt optima. T. Hob certe q audiebam o Socrates ad arbi trui p bata est. S. Quid illud. Hon ne int initia. cultores agrores ceterar q; arcui psessores. adestinata bellicis negotus ivuentute secreuim. T. Sic factu.S.Tributo nepe ceteris. qd cuiq eximiu anata datu. solis his q psa lute oiu tctarent. unu hoc mun iniu xim ptegende civitatis. t ad ufu ext nos. t adufu inteftinos. ac domesticos hostes. mitib qde iudicus erga obedi entes. ut pote ifanguineus. nata q; a micos. Aspis aute; itra armatas acies. inigressionib martus. biformi fiqde nata pditos. intutela pate. Civiu q; fe roces. posro in pacis offitus. religione sapientes. ppterea q; mites suis. adu sum alienigenas feroces. T. Memini. S. Qda. hui ancipitis nate magiste ruio.& quasi quanda nutcatione n ne inexercitio corpors gignafiores q; luctamine. aiores icem istituebamus placiditate indelinimtis & in affa bilitate musice. ceteraru q; arcium & institutionu. A qs adolescentes inge nuos scire par est. T. Ita. S atuero hac educatione altis auri argenti suppellectilis cete possessione. Cuiq; ppam nulla. Ee. aut existumari lice pdi xim. F; fola mercede itentos. exibentib quores salute tuerent. uti imunit tan ta. Q satis sit occupatis erga custodia imunis salutis. acetera opis functione cessantib. T.Dicta hec omia in hunc mo dum funt. S. de feminis q; opinor ha bitam mentione. qd similes eide q; na ture marib iveniat effingi. sine ulla mores differentia. Q utq; sex hisde qimi rub institutis regat. Quid de pcreandis & suscipiendis liberis. an u hoc ita ut cetera q pter opinione hominu. qsue tudineq; uite dice viderent memorabile vivatioris q; tenacitatis. de existiman dis imunib nupciis imuni q; ple. sisuos qsq; minime intrioscat affect. ppterea q; oms omib religione isanguinitatis exhibeant; du eaqles qde frm forores caritate. benivolencia q; ducantur maiorib uero parentu religio. eoies q antiqorib reverentia auores exhibeat. Atq; atauori. Intraq; filus nepotibu debita caritas. diligencia ivalescat. T. hec q. facilia memoratu a nob re tinent optime. S. Quid illud. qd si tie odio. emulatione nubenciu. me tiorib pcis meli morate ugines fortito obveniant. inferiores porro inferiori bus. Hon ne tenetis salubertimam fortif fraude. curantib inutq: sexu pfec tis nupciaru q, sue quisq; fortuna fortis inpspam culpet. nec platione doleat alteri. T. hoc q; memoria tenem. S.U lud pmulgatu puto lectores fet paten cum fuma cura. ut pote natalis bo nitatis puilegiu pserentes: alendos. Ceteros. T. id ipsum. S. alendos alu cuida ufui patepfutos. pcessu q; etatis eores nichio remissiore cura notanda pu eritie.& ite adolescencie merita. q ta ex fodi ordinis popto puebant. ad pmu ordine ppugnatores. q mereburit. q ex hif q parentu, utute degenerent ad fode dignitatis ordine relegant. Et qd ergo thimee: satisuidi factu recepto cuncti. Partib oratiois hefterne licet Actimi pendio q; decursis. An aliqd vultis addio.T.Hichil sane.S. fcis ne g quid ego de ista re.p. fencia.Quid ue qua tum animi desiderui fera.T.Quid il lud.S.Yt fiquis visis eximie pulctu dinis. Ac venuftatis animalib pictis. T- viventib qde.f; inmobilit qescenti bus;mot.actq;-certam aliqd eores spectare defidet.fic ego nc informate urbis adubrateq;sermon poptm.agente aliqd.c finitimis civitatib in pace.aut bello.dignii tanta fama.-educatioe magna a qda expectatioe vide deposco.Quippe fateor critia-hermocrates.n eum.ee.me.q tanta indole digne laudare possim.Hec miru non posse me;qm nec vetes qde auctoees. T psentis sdi poetas;posse ifida.n q itepna poeticam nacionem.f;qd evidens pspicuimiq;fit; imitandi pericos.ea demum e mulari posse perfecte.quors abieunte etate hant ufu.expientia q;-inqb ppemodu fine educati.At vero incogniti moris.pegneq; institutiois imitatio ne efficta pserti oratione.seu usib pclaris.licet.pstantib q;ingen iis.ee.difficelem. Sophistas q; uboru agmine atq;inundatioe sermonis beatos vidico.Vereor tam.ne ut st vagi.palantes q;nec certis ppis;sedib morantes.ac domiciles.pbilosophors moref.-instituta avit prudencie
Nec ilectura qde affeq valeant.nec de monstrare ceceris cui mi.ee.debeant official paccata.-icem inbellis fides puecti adfapientia popli. Sup-g solii ure eruditionis ingenui nuttu cura.p.philosophie q;natali stdio flagrans Si qde thime iste exlocris.q urbs italie flos.nobilitate. divitiis. Reru geftarii gta facile pnceps.idem q; ad hoc tepu axce optinebat amoris sapiencie.Critia u ut pote cuie scim instudiis humanitatis omib aopme vigere.de hermocratis porro nata educatioe facita.-accomodata rebs his de qb agim explicandis dubitare nullu puto.Ideo q;vibentib vob eftno die facile parui. Que q; m visa si de publicis differenda.ee.in pigre sum executi.illd cogitans. Reliqar partes instituti opis a nullo posse imodii explicari. Veniq; inpleto ipetent officiio. Finito sermone. Itendi avob q; mutivi fieri. Vosim patu suscepistis.-adsum ut videtis parati ad desponsa dapem. Hermocrates. Nos q; ons ut pollicit;modo thime. Invinctu nob ate mun. puirib exeqema.pserti cu nulla excusandi ratio ipetat/ Haq;-pto die moxiventu soluto. C ad hospitiu rediremi. Q suscepti acritia sumi.-pea ibidem de re ipsa habiumi ictatu. N occiosii. Hic gi nob exhistoria veteri narratione retensuit.q veli o critia repeats. Ut ccognovit Socrates;existimet. Sic ne fuata ucit ad inpate remunationis effectii.C,Sic fieri quenit.si icio isorti munis thimeo n alit videt. Audi o Socrate mira qde s;plena sidei re-ve ritatis. Ut envo. Vii. Sapientii pmari Solon recensebat. Qem avi mer-isortis innoie.ccie Suisse avint. Admodii familiare.Quo referente.ego puer accipi res gestas hui urbis memorabiles. Divatnitate.intituq; hominii; enullata evanuisse. Int qas una pcetis illustre dicebat. Cuii fiet imemoratio. Q tam penes te gra collocet; q debita dee cui hodierna pompa-instauret venacio. (F010ar)
Harrabat.g. grandis natu.ut q adnona gesimii ia ppinaqret annu. Me tc agente annos.x.publicis sceremonis.celebri die orta causa imemoratiois;exsolonis versivi cantilena. Erat ii sollenne familie nre festis dieb nos pueros ad certam memorie ppositis invitare pmiis puerilib. Multis q carminib ta veterum q novori memorit pivintiatis. Int que Solonis aliqanto pluribi.ut que novitas imendaret ad gram;memini quenda.sive qd ita rudicaret.seu qd bellet cciam pmereri; dixisse.plane Solone s vidi. n solii prudential ceteris laude dignis. S;etia carminibus pstitisse. O senex valde.ii. memini.
(F010av) Letati eximie; qid; sin mqd p functorie s; dedita opa poetica executus suiss; Solon omiaminander. T sermone qm ab Egipto reusus instituerat.impless; aquo qde seditionib cetaq;intepie civilis di sensionis inpediente;descivit.hon opinos minore hesiodo
t homo futam Suisse. & ille. Quis na iste fuit ovvia sermo. T a q de re instituti. Cricia.de maximo inqd.eximie ututis.-famosi simo titulo.qem fessit h civitas;cuii extincta memoria-ta morte eori qui gessert.q inpendio tepis. Senex.dic qso inqd occia qd op illd.-qteni actu-a qb iptu. Solon tivis recensebat. C.Est inqd regio in egipto delta. Cuii evtice civitas magna. Q regit mos veti. Lexsai tica nucupat. Ex hac urbe amasis impator suit.iditor vero.theos. O U jt. Urbis. In egiptica linguq censet nehut.gca dr Athena. Ipsi orro hominess amatores athanensui.isti q;urb cognatione se nobilitari psert.q Solon psectu se satis hospitalit honoratu referebat; exptu q; liqdo. Qd de vetustatis memoria. Nullus nre nationis vir;nec tenuem qde habet scientia. Deniq;c iniventu facerdotu.penes qs pcipua sit memoria vetustatis; eliciendi studio qe sciret. Uba facet. De antiqssimis histories athenaru. Phoroneo-nioba; pq; inundationem mundi de pyrra.-deucalione studiose q;pseq psapia renovete gentis.humane. usq; ad memoria parentu. Annori q; num recenseret; irrisu se.ee.a qda de sacerdotib q didet.O Solon gci. Pueri sep estis.nec qsq egcia senex. Cur ita dicet pcunctato Solone. Q rudi novella q; estis memoria sep;nec-inqd ulla penes vos memoria t cana sciencia. Hec inmerito. Multe qppe neces hominu. Partim iflagratioe. Partum inundatioi vastantib accidert. Veniq; illa -fama e quob q; ipta- phetonte qnda solissiliv affectante ofitiu patris; cinri as cendisle luciferos;nec servatis solennib avrigatiois orbitis exussisse trena.ip sum q; flames celestib iflagrasse. Fabula qde putat. S;-vera. Fit ii longo intuallo mundi ccuationis exorbita cio queda.q. inflamationis vastital I feqc necesse est. T c g hi q insiccis.et editis locis habitant. Magis pereunt. Q vicini littorib aut fluvus. Hob porro nilus ic inplerisq; rebi salutaris.tu adusum huimi pieta; meatu irriguo phenni q;gurgite obiecti. Arcet exitium. Item c tra erit humore abluenda. Pastores qde uri montiu edita ca pessantes; pido nitingunti. A t vero civitates inplanitie site. C poptis suis rapiunti admaria. Qb pidis regio ista minime itingeti. Hon eni ut incetis regionib humor inplanicie supne manat; S;eximo .& peande platutiem ingllo reditu stagnis detume centib remeat. Que causa-monimtorum publicoru. Puatores q; pseverantia nutt;studiose q; ta nte nationis reru geftaru memoria q cetaru gentium.a qs t fama nob p cognitione tdidit. Descipta; teplores custodus itinet. A pud uos.-cetos.nc plane.-nup refecte monimentoru edes; icte demu celesti liqre; pcumbut. Involuteq;littis publicis.c antiquioris historie memoria dissipantur. Ut necesse sit novo initio utte. Novo q; poplo.nova idi memoria litterarum. (F012av)

[Danaus]

Please cite source.  I know it's calcidius.  There are several different manuscripts though.  I have a translation of the latin calcidius, however, different manuscripts have different "additional phrases".  Is this the digby manuscript?  Additionally, are you transcribing this yourself, or are you copy-and-pasting this text?  If you are transcribing yourself, then I can assist you a bit, and help with the short-hand of the text.  I will delete this post depending on your response, to preserve the rest of the thread.  I've been too lazy myself to transcribe the digby text even though I know about additional phrases not preserved in the greek text/english translation or the traditional calcidius text.  Additionally, there is a book in latin where some schollar has looked at various manuscripts, however, I can't read latin.

Additionally, if you're willing to type, I'm willing to compare your transcription to the traditional transcription.

[Goliath]

Please cite source.  I know it's calcidius.  There are several different manuscripts though.  I have a translation of the latin calcidius, however, different manuscripts have different "additional phrases".  Is this the digby manuscript?  Additionally, are you transcribing this yourself, or are you copy-and-pasting this text?  If you are transcribing yourself, then I can assist you a bit, and help with the short-hand of the text.  I will delete this post depending on your response, to preserve the rest of the thread.  I've been too lazy myself to transcribe the digby text even though I know about additional phrases not preserved in the greek text/english translation or the traditional calcidius text.  Additionally, there is a book in latin where some schollar has looked at various manuscripts, however, I can't read latin.

Additionally, if you're willing to type, I'm willing to compare your transcription to the traditional transcription.

I wish that I could take credit for finding this, Danaus, but it actually came from one of Riven's old posts, transferred over to here.  I thought it a good find, so I made a separate topic on it.  Yes, I believe it is the digby manuscript. If you would like to try your hand in translating it, by all means, please do.

[Danaus]

Bury(Greek) vs. Calcidius(Latin):
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,599.0.html

Calcidius - Latin Transcript (Not Digby):
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,209.0.html

**********
Digby Codex:
http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/msdigby23/
f003ar.jpg to f055av.jpg

Another website:
http://timaeus.baylor.edu/

Calcidius writes notes above the lines of text... I am not aware of any transcription of these, either.
******
Transcribing Latin:
an overline is usually an N or M... following a finishing t... it is an -ur.

an "ij" = "iu"... and sometimes "ii".

A funny-looking p="pro".

A funny looking q="que".

A period sometimes follows a "b.". This signifies "bus".

[Goliath]

Thanks for those resources, Danaus.  I have yet to see anything in Chalcidio that contradicts the major points as to the time frame and location that Atlantis had existed in, though.  Have you?  I will admit to having only a rudimentary understanding of ancient Latin.

[Danaus]

Hmm... my Bury vs Calcidius comparison was incomplete.  It is now finished.

As for temporal differences... they are basically in agreement... here is one difference, though:
"[25b] of the lands here within the Straits they ruled over Libya as far as Egypt" -- Bury
vs. :"[25b] accordingly the third of the borne universe, which Libya is said, all the way towards Egypt they have commanded" -- Calcidius

[atalante]

Danaus,

Your observation is useful.  Bury is not accurate in using the word straits ("within the straits").  The Greek text of 25b does not mention straits, pillars, or Heracles.

[Qoais]

What does that mean - third of the borne universe?

Does it mean that Libya is considered 1/3 of the known world?  If so, why the word universe?

[Danaus]

What does that mean - third of the borne universe?

Does it mean that Libya is considered 1/3 of the known world?  If so, why the word universe?

The language is garbled and up to interpretation.  The term used for universe is "mundo", which is world in spanish... so world is absolutely a legitimate alternative.
*********
It could mean "third age", as in "Bronze Age".  It could be a division of the continents, Libya, Asia, Europe.

An alternative possibility is that the person Libya was the wife of Poseidon... and both lived two generations after IO, or the 3rd generation.  I kind of like this version myself, even if it's not textually supported.

[Nerc]

Panchea - holy mountain of Triphylios divided land "equally" for the 3 tribes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triskelion??

[atalante]

The 3 concepts of a continent which appear in 25a-25b are applying normal terminology for Plato's era.   Two of the references are names of subcontinents (Libya, Europe).  And the other usage involves the "epeirou" (universal continent).
 
 
 
[25a]  "Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings...
[ruling, in-one-sense (kratousa men =  a present participle; feminine nominative singular)] over all the island, and over many other islands also...
 
[25a] ...kai merôn tês êpeirou pros de toutis
eti tôn entos têide
[25b] Libuês men êrchon mechri pros Aigupton,  tês de Eurôpês mechri Turrênias
 
 
 
Let's analyze the second half of the above passage, word by word, because it discusses regions which Atlantis influenced, without directly ruling.  The two different categories of "ruling and influencing" are presented in Plato's Greek by using a "men...men" sentence structure ("on-the-one-hand... on-the-other-hand").
 
 
[25a] ...kai merôn [neut gen pl]  tês êpeirou [fem gen sing]   ---  and from parts of the known-continent
pros de                                                       ---  near
     [here the preposition "pros" is used "B. WITH DAT., it expresses proximity, hard by, near, at"]
toutis [masc-neut, dat pl]                             ---  these; 
 
 
 
eti [conjunction]  tôn [fem-masc-neut, gen pl- genitive partitive] --- But yet, some-of-the-ones
                                                                      [i.e. some parts of the known-continent, near Atlantis]
entos [preposition] têide [fem dat sing]          --- inside this (sub-continent)
[25b] Libuês  [fem gen sing]                         --- of Libya,
men      [indeclinable]                                  --- in-another-sense,
êrchon   [3rd person,plural, indicative]           --- supervised
mechri pros [a Greek compound phrase]         --- as far as 
  [here the preposition "pros" is used:  "C. WITH ACCUS., it expresses motion or direction towards an object"]
Aigupton  [fem acc sing]                             --- Egypt,
 
tês [fem gen sing] de [conjunc]  Eurôpês [fem gen sing]--- and (inside) the European (sub-continent)     
mechri [prep with genitive] Turrênias [fem gen sing]       --- even to Tyrrhenia
 
 
 
Summary of the latter half of 25a-25b:
[25a]... and also (ruling = "kratousa")  from some parts of the known-continent near these.
But yet, in-another-sense, some of the ones inside this (subcontinent)
[25b] of Libya supervised as far as Egypt, and (inside) the European (subcontinent) even to Tyrrhenia. 
 
 
Plato constructed this passage elliptically.  So all readers of the Greek sentence structure must fill in some blanks when reading the passage.
 
The passage 25a-25b is saying that the main bulk of places which Atlanteans directly ruled were outside the "epirou" (geographically-known-continent).  But some outposts of Atlantis were located at the most distant geographical places known to Egypt.  Some of the Atlantean outposts in Libya supervised (or influenced) territory of Libya up to the edge of Egypt, and also supervised territory of Europe up to Tyrrhenia. 

[Nerc]

i am a little confused. are you suggesting that egypt was free of atlantean domination?

is your epeirou the entire balkans south of the danube/sava? or just dodona southward? or do you have another location/description/source?

[atalante]

Anaximander (born ca 610 BC) was the first Greek to draw a world map.  He divided the universal continent into 3 sub-continents.  He chose to use 2 rivers as the dividing markers which separated the subcontinents Europe, Asia, and Libya.   At the time when Solon visited Egypt, Anaximander's world map contained the best available information.

The epeiros (= mainland continent) was a Greek word used before Anaximander, and contained all three subcontinents:   Europe, Asia, and Libya.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaximander

[Nerc]

can you please point me to the use of "The epeiros" as meaning all three continents combined as a whole [ocumene oikumene?] rather than western epeiros, eastern epeiros and southern epeiros. are you literally saying "the continents" and not saying that the oikumenen was also called The epeiros?

The passage 25a-25b is saying that the main bulk of places which Atlanteans directly ruled were outside the "epirou" (geographically-known-continent).  But some outposts of Atlantis were located at the most distant geographical places known to Egypt.  Some of the Atlantean outposts in Libya supervised (or influenced) territory of Libya up to the edge of Egypt, and also supervised territory of Europe up to Tyrrhenia.

what you are trying to imply i think is that atlantis was outside these three continents and only dabbled in libya and europe?

i would certainly agree however that atlantis did not hold sway below dodona but did east to ugarit and west to algiers including egypt

[atalante]

Egyptian hieroglyphic language had a geographical word for "beyond everything which is known", HAw-nbw.  Most likely, this is the word which the Egyptian priests were using when they originally talked to Solon about the homeland of the Atlanteans. 

Critias 25a-25b is saying that the Atlantean homebase was somewhere within the HAw-nbw region; but some outskirts of Atlantis also extended into territory for which Egypt had geographical names. 

When Solon visited Egypt, neither the Greeks nor the Egyptians had mapped the outside edges of Europe, Asia, and Libya-Africa.  So it seems unrealistic to think that our modern concepts for the whole regions of Europe, Asia, and Africa were bring discussed. 



The Greek word epeiros meant the opposite of an island, sea, delta, or swamp.  It was commonly used to mean either mainland portions of Greece, or mainland Asia.    Here is what the best Greek lexicon says about epeiros:
 
quote from:  http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2347463
 
êpeir-os , Dor. ap- [a_], hê,
A. terra firma, land, opp. the sea, Od.3.90, 10.56, Il.1.485, Hes.Op.624, etc.; kat' êpeiron by land, Hdt.4.97, 8.66; mêt' en thalattêi mêt' en êpeirôi Ar.Ach.534 , cf. Timocr.8: hence, even of an island, êpeironde Od.5.56 ; but,
II. esp. the mainland of Western Greece, opp. the neighbouring islands, Od.14.97, al.; êpeironde 18.84 , cf. Th.3.114 (so as pr. n., Pi.N.4.51, X.HG6.1.7, etc.): generally, mainland, opp. islands, Hdt.1.148,171, al., Th.1.5, Philostr. VA1.20, etc.
III. later, a continent, esp. of Asia. Hdt.1.96, 4.91, A.Pers.718 (troch.), X.HG3.1.5, D.60.11, etc.; rheithron êpeiroin (-ôn codd.) horon, of the Tanais or Phasis, A.Pr.790; so dissai apeiroi, i.e. Europe and Asia, S.Tr.101 (lyr.); tô du' êpeirô Id.Fr.881 ; eph' hekateras tês ê. Isoc.4.35; ê. doiai, didumai, amphoterai, Mosch. 2.8, AP7.18 (Antip. Thess.), 240 (Adaeus), Lib.Ep.783.3; rhizan apeiron tritan, of Libya, Pi.P.9.8.
IV. plain, opp. mountain, êpeironde A.R.2.734 ,976.
V. in Egypt, land above inundationlevel, PGiss.48.8 (iii A.D.); more freq., gê ê. PLond.3.1201.2 (ii B.C.), etc. (Fr. a_per-yos, cf. Germ. Ufer.)