Athanasius Kircher

[Mark of Australia]

....Ok ,  so I got the book 'Forbidden History'

Anyway. In the part where Frank Joseph claims Kircher got his map out of the Vatican Library and that it was drawn on treated leather etc. he gives a detailed description and it seems to me to be too detailed to have been simply made up by Joseph.

'Luckily' ,in the bibliography at the back of the book , in the list of books cited as sources of information for the chapter in question is a title by a 'Paul Petraitis' called 'Athanasius Kircher ,German Genius' -  .London International House Publishers.

 I have tried to find this book on the net but so far absolutely nothing.

It was published in 1989

If anyone knows where to find this book I'd appreciate hearing about it... or better yet  ,if anyone  here HAS the book ..!

I guess I just can't lets this go, or atleast I'm trying to exhaust all the leads

[Bianca]

Mark,

There is actually a simpler way to find out the truth:

Locate a copy (good luck) of Mundus Subterraneus and read what Kircher HIMSELF states
as to the provenance of this map.   

Amazon does not have it.  A library maybe?

Best of Luck.....

b

[Rebecca]

Are you sure that this 'Paul Petraitis' person wrote an actual book?  You mentioned Frank Joseph, who publishes the Ancient American.  I did a search for Petraitis and found nothing either, but he did apparently write for the Ancient American as well:

http://www.flavinscorner.com/falling.htm

[Rebecca]

From: Engravings of Prehistoric Specimens from Michigan
(Etzenhouser 1910).
     I benefitted from my conversations with Lois Benedict and Bill McGlone during those months.  Lois is a retired nurse and school teacher, as well as a tireless researcher into the so-called “Michigan Relics,” often referred to as the Soper-Savage frauds.  These thousands of artifacts (estimates range from 20,000 to 40,000 items), were “discovered” between 1890 and 1912 in Michigan, with a few “finds” said to have originated in other Midwestern states.  Though the “Michigan Relics” had their supporters (and still do), they were judged early on to be fraudulent and that position hasn’t changed (Williams 1991, pp. 176-186).  The mystery, of course, remains who made them and why.  Because of the sheer number of manufactured items, I argued to Lois that a group was likely responsible, probably a cult, and the only candidate which came to mind was James J. Strang (1817-1856).  It was my suggestion the principals in the “Michigan Relics” hoax came upon extensive caches of Strang cultist items and attempted to pass them off as genuine archaeological finds.  On the surface, there seemed to be many similarities between the “Michigan Relics” and the Burrows Cave inscribed stones–both groups were modern, a large number of items were involved, previously unknown alphabets were used in conjunction with apparent religious imagery, etc.  Oh, and Lois was investigating Burrows as well.  She even achieved “enemy” status before me.

     Lois was in contact with Mildred Ward, the widow of Jack Ward, an associate of Burrows, who helped sell the inscribed artifacts at weekend arrowhead conventions between c. 1984 and 1990 (Allison 1994). [Note: Lois said Mildred told her Burrows first met Jack Ward in 1979, earlier than the claimed dates of 1983 and 1984.]  From what she learned from Mildred, Lois passed on a few names, a lawyer, a couple of friends, and these in turn supplied more names of people to talk to.  I must stress, at this time, that these were extremely sad telephone conversations.  The senior citizens who had purchased the inscribed stones from Burrows and/or Ward were very embarrassed.  They wanted to believe in something fantastic, but knew they’d wasted their money.  Lois also suggested Burrows may have been involved with other incidents before the "cave," and often mentioned the tragedy of the Native American site of Slack Farm in Kentucky, and the wholesale looting that occurred.  She maintained Burrows was one of those who had escaped arrest (Hayden 1993).

     When confronted with the above, Burrows called Mildred a “gold-digger,” who married Jack Ward for his money, referred to Lois Benedict in a term often used in animal husbandry when a female is mentioned, and ...sputtered and stuttered regarding allegations he was involved in the Slack Farm crimes.  It was the only time I’ve ever known Burrows to be so mad as to be at a loss for words.  In one of our next telephone conversations, he quickly recovered and attacked his past associate, Jack Ward, in a cruel and vile fashion.  He claimed Ward was selling the inscribed stones without his knowledge, implied it was to support Ward’s secret homosexual lifestyle, and told me a disgusting story of going to Ward’s home after the funeral, meeting with the family, discovering a hidden cigar-box near the living-room, and finding a “s***-encrusted dildo” inside of it.  Ouch!  I knew then that any man who could spew such vicious lies about a one-time associate, was capable of much evil and deception.  And, as these things go, it got worse. 

     My conversations and correspondence with Bill McGlone, a retired engineer and devout diffusionist, helped me immensely.  He was critical of the amateur archaeology (and epigraphy) community and his challenging insights continue to inspire me.  He’d previously put his time and talent where another’s deceit reigned by testifying in a New Mexico courtroom regarding fraudulent antiquities (McGlone, et al 1993, pp. 46-49).  Bill took me to task for every wasted phone-call I made, scribbled notes that I couldn’t read the next day, and sharing of information with Burrows that wasn’t necessary.  Unfortunately, my seeking Bill’s help was not without cost.

     The amateur archaeology and diffusionist community had been split concerning Burrows Cave from its public beginnings with the talks by Jack Ward in 1984 at ISAC (The Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures) in Columbus, Georgia, and by Ward and Burrows in 1988.  For various reasons, some believed the claims of Burrows were true and the many inscribed stones were genuine, most did not.  McGlone began his interest in diffusion allied with Barry Fell, but later became highly critical of his methodology (McGlone, et al 1993, pp. 27-40), a re-evaluation he also applied to Gloria Farley (best known for her investigation of the so-called "Heavener Runestone").  It became petty with Fell and Farley supporters rallied on one side, McGlone continuing his work with a small, but growing group on another side, and there were believers and nonbelievers in Burrows Cave sprinkled about in both camps.  When Fell passed away in early 1994, the amateur archaeology and diffusionist community split further.  I spoke with many at this time who seemed more concerned with my dealings with McGlone, than with Collin and Burrows. [Note: The Ancient American was continuing to publish articles in support of Burrows Cave (May and Burrows 1994, Scherz 1994, White and Mosley 1993, 1994), as well as a few letters indifferent (Coppens 1994; Godlewski 1993; Hart 1993; Petraitis 1994), and against (Lurio 1994).]
http://www.flavinscorner.com/falling.htm

[Bianca]

Rebecca

I have had no luck either and I have looked for a good amount of time,
today, and I am still looking.  Maybe it was an article this Petreitis person
wrote.  I have the book 'Forbidden History', but it does not say.




Mark here's what I found, though:



A classical portrayal of the island of Atlantis,
BASED UPON PLATO'S DIALOGUES.


From Mundus Subterraneus by Athanasius Kircher. (1665)


http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Journal/2002/Spring/Atlantis/



It seems to me that only Joseph and Flem-Ath are the ones with this '......from Egypt....' myth.

[Bianca]

Mmmmm......

Has anybody noticed that when the map is turned, the two islands are
near the Americas and not near the African coast?

Surely, Kircher would have known about the Canaries and the Azores, in
the middle of the sixteenth century!!!

[Rebecca]

Bianca,

I think it was an article.  If it was a book, chances are, it would be listed at Amazon.com.  The fact that it was most likely an article in Frank Joseph's magazine makes me even more suspect of it. Most here probably already know - the man used to be a Neo-Nazi!

On the other hand, don't you hate searching for something that can't be found?  Someday, hopefully every book ever created will be capable of being found on the internet, verbatim.  

[Mark of Australia]

Wow ,

Thanks Rebecca ,,that's a pretty thorough search you must have done ...I couldn't find anything.  That would seem to be the correct Paul Petraitis...

But just skimming through that article ...ughhh  ,it's a pretty sickly and disturbing read...

Well in the bibliography of Forbidden History it that Athanasius book of Petraitis and it 'seems' to be a book,  but since that chapter is by Frank Joseph most likely it can't be trusted ,just like him.

[Mark of Australia]

 Someday, hopefully every book ever created will be capable of being found on the internet, verbatim.  

Amen to that, sister ! 

it's so frustrating not being able to find that 'book'.

Now that I think about it ,,it probably was just an article ,hence not being able to find it anywhere... but it was from 1989 ...oh s*** ,it just dawned on me !!!  , since it was from 1989 it was before Atlantis Rising or Ancient American existed...and since the title of it was -'A.K. ,German Genius'  , it was probably some Neo Nazi nonsense .. ughhhhh 

[Bianca]

Right, Mark!  I added to my post ABOVE, by the way.....

We seem to have come to the same conclusion.

[Mark of Australia]

Thanks for searching ,Rebecca and Bianca ,

but frankly I find this nazi freak show involvlement really distasteful ...And I'm prepared to just not seriously pursue it, if only coz I don't even wanna be associated with those creeps ,it's just not fun....

If the 'article' becomes available I'll check it out. But it's just depressing going on a wild goose-chase that probably originated as neo nazi fantasy... it's really insulting if they have wasted our time with there evil delusions...
 

[Bianca]

Mark,

I still would REALLY like to know what Kircher himself says in his book.

I have never had any personal dealings with Georgeous and I find his statement
very convincing.  I don't think he would make it up, as someone will run into
Kircher's book, sooner or later.......

[Rebecca]

That's a good conclusion.  There is a lot of German idealization of the Atlantis story where they identify it with Thule and other elements of racial superiority.  Not only is it highly offensive, it is also highly inaccurate, too.

I skipped the racial/Frank Joseph stuff in the article and just looked at the parts dealing with the artifacts.  I thought that part was interesting, but again, since it is associated with Frank Joseph it probably can't be taken seriously either.

[Mark of Australia]

Bianca ,

from what I can gather , very little of Kircher's works have been translated into English.That's why they are so elusive.

This Kircher map saga is really getting at me...  I would so much like the claims to be authentic ,,maybe we are jumping to conlcusions about this Petraitis ,he is not necessarily Neo Nazi aswell .... but if someone can be stupid enough to be a Neo nazi as Frank Joseph was or is ,Then they can be deluded enough to make lies about Atlantis....

*look of derision*  

[Mark of Australia]

Rebecca ,,  I haven't read that article yet ,and don't know if Petraitis is mentioned other than the reference to him...

....I just want closure on this damned line of inquiry...