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News: Ruins of 7,000-year-old city found in Egypt oasis
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How to Build a Pyramid

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Author Topic: How to Build a Pyramid  (Read 6988 times)
Catastrophe
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« Reply #90 on: May 10, 2007, 03:29:31 am »

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that a crank idea was postulated a quarter of a century ago and now has cult adoration from people who seem incapable of answering real questions - just regurgitation of ancient cult nonsense.

For real answers see "An Encyclopaedia of Ancient Egyptian Architecture" by Dieter Arnold.

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iwannano
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« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2009, 02:59:19 pm »

I've posted the results of my unscientific foray into disolving limestone and hardening it again on other threads.

A challenge was issued in regards to having a build off to see which method would be superior. That might be reality TV I would want to watch.

 I have no doubt a team could carve and build a block pyramid , infact that already has been done with the stone cutter from This Old House on PBS. I also have no doubt that one could cast a pyramid. The contest would be who could do it fastest with the least amount of manpower. I would propose that both teams have to produce all tooling and/or chemicals from what would have been available way back when. Also the construction should take place in an area similar to the current pyramid location in relation to distances from resources. I think the size would have to be sufficeint as to not give an advatage to either side, i.e. if too small it would be easier to construct a ramp for moving the blocks and a taller pyramid would be advantageous to the casters as they only have to use a pulley system to haul up buckets of components to mix.

It could all be worked out and although it wouldn't end the debate I'd be entertained.
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Qoais
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« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2009, 09:57:29 pm »

Hi iwannano!!!!  How ARE you?  Welcome to the forum.  Do you realize you were the first ever poster I ever read at AR and I thought "iwannano" says it all in a nutshell.  That was me back then.  Wanting to know, and know NOW!!  I thought that was such an appropriate name. 

I'll lay odds with you.  I bet the team that pours and casts, will win!!
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
iwannano
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« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2009, 11:10:27 pm »

The more one knows the more one wants to know and if one is lucky you stay that way for as long as you are here.

Not that it matters to the debate but I believe the casters would win too as it is a more efficient method. After all when building things like the Hoover Dam we didn't cut big blocks and pile them up.

There are many problems with the cast method though and the first question that comes to mind is why didn't they cast the side blocks at an the angle of the pyramid? It would have made applying the facing alot easier.

I also personally believe the pyramids are far older than the Egyptians. I'm one of those "nuts" that thinks we aren't the first advanced society on Earth but merely the most recent.
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Qoais
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« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2009, 12:44:54 am »

There are more than a few who are here in the forum who would agree with you, including me.  Watch this video Wind linked us to.  I can't believe I knew all this stuff 30 some years ago.  It's not that I can't believe I knew it that long ago, it's that it seems to be coming across as new information, when in fact, another Dr. had a book out - can't remember the name now, about reincarnation and he had gone all over the place interviewing people who could remember their past lives.  Stevenson I think his name was.  Gave pretty much the same info as Dr. Wiese is talking about in the video.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 12:49:43 am by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
iwannano
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« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2009, 12:34:24 pm »

I am in Hawaii at the pacific missle range installing a fuel cell. This particular fuel cell has 2 components that weigh in at 37,000 and 32,000 pounds. We used a 100 ton crane to lift them. That seems like overkill but crane capacity de-rates the further the boom gets from vertical. It may have been possible to assemble enough men to pull on enough ropes to lift a 50 ton stone but to swing it into position would require a machine with the ability to lock the load, pivot and slowly lower the load. It would have to have a massive counterweight to balance as it did all the above.
Once my 32,000 pounds parts was on the slab and the crane was gone we realized it was 2" off the mark(rookie using the aligning tool). Smooth concrete, 3 fairly in shape old guys and 3 six foot long pry bars and nothing moved. We were only trying to scoot a single corner at a time and it didn't budge. I hooked up a length of chain to our truck and although it couldn't budge it it did provide tension that along with the pry bars we we able to scoot the machine about a 1/4" at a time.
I mention all of this because the logistics of trying to place a 50 ton stone using timber poles, rollers and rope blow my mind. How did they get the rollers out from under the stones? Where did all the guys stand to pry the stone into perfect alignment?
I did install a 40000 pound fuel cell in the basement of the post office in DC. Once lowered by crane we did use rollers to to move it about 100' to it's final resting place. Again this was smooth concrete, steel rollers and only 40000 pounds and we struggled when one roller got hung up on a dime that was dropped on the floor. Granted larger diameter rollers make it easier to overcome the unevenness of the ground but the timber rollers would have had to be pretty round and light enough for a couple of guys to move it from the back to the front.
I think part of our challenge should be having two additional crews using todays technology, one moving stones and one casting, using concrete. In fact if the challenge was just using todays technology it would shed some light on the extreme difficulty of using either of these techniques 4000 years ago.

Maybe CBS will put this on in place of "survivor".
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Qoais
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« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2009, 04:34:08 pm »

What a marvelous challenge that would be!!  I would watch it for sure.  I never watch survivor. 

I hope you don't mind, but I think I'm going to copy your post and paste it in another forum where we're arguing the same old stuff.  It's great when people like you who have to do this kind of thing in real life, tell us how difficult it is.  I hate it when someone says building the pyramids was easy.  All they needed was a little measuring tool, or of course they had ramps to move the blocks up, they poured oil on the ramps to make it easier.  How about the poor buggers coming back down?  Made a fun day of it did they and slid down on their backsides!? Yes, if I could go back in time to see one thing, it would be building the pyramids.
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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iwannano
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« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2009, 09:14:20 pm »

I never watch "suvivor" either that is why I suggested their time slot(I'm sure they won't mind).

Be my guest to copy and paste whatever you like, I'm just relating real world experiences and asking questions related to them. I don't pretend to know anything but would like to know everything.
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Qoais
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« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2009, 09:29:16 pm »

HOW PYRAMIDS WERE BUILT

Summery
Building started at the center by building a core or  mastaba (a square building  of one layer of stones) then completed the pyramid shape making a small pyramid in the center, then surrounded it from the four sides by a layer (5-10 m thick) made a new bigger pyramid, work continued increasing the base size and the height until the decision was made to stop or the king died . Working this way made always a pyramid ready to receive the king if he died any time (this agrees with ancient Egyptians believes and agrees also with their genius simplicity and we can see the evidence in the pyramids they left)
Ancient Egyptians in the old kingdom well knew wheels and may have used it in building pyramids and moving heavy stones.
Ancient Egyptians in the old kingdom well knew pulleys and used it in raising their boats’ sails and may have used it in lifting stones to higher levels.
 How pyramids were built?
It is generally accepted, and commonly thought  and written on books, references and on the internet; that building the pyramids in Egypt started by deciding the pyramid dimensions , corner stones were put first  ,then the first course was built, followed by the second ,third ….. Etc,    to the end, and the cap stone comes on th
Based on this imagination many theories were introduced suggesting building ramps either from one direction, four directions or helical ramps that rose around the pyramid , in spite of the fact that building and removing these ramps would have taken longer time and more effort than building the pyramid itself.
The important question here that no body before asked is
Did the king or project manager know exactly the required dimensions of the pyramid he is building?
This is actually contradicting to facts, logic and ancient Egyptian religion.
Contradicting to logic because for sure the kings would be ambitious if you ask them they would order the biggest pyramid, but on the other side who guarantee to be there to finish it. This is why I have big doubt they ever knew or ordered a specific dimensions of their pyramids.
IN CONTRADICTION WITH Ancient Egyptian religion .Because there must be always a ready tomb (pyramid) to receive the king’s mummy at any time. So it was not accepted to find only the first few courses of a big pyramid that would take ages to finish as a pyramid (a work that can not be guaranteed to be done after the king’s death.
Contradicting to fact because they left no truncated pyramids, the pyramids left by the Ancient Egyptians are all finished pyramids, having the pyramid shape either in a good condition or crumbling.

.......continued
http://www.hanyra.com/index_files/Buildingpyramidsfromthecenterout.htm
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Logic rules.

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Qoais
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« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2009, 09:31:28 pm »

.....continued

I wondered a lot, why nobody tried to think in a simple way that suites better with Ancient Egyptian simple life, and believe.
Why wouldn’t they start building from the center? Building a small pyramid
Then increase its base  size by building another layer  all around the core, , increase its height to have a bigger pyramid shape , gradually making it bigger and bigger until either the king orders stopping the  size increase and finishing it , or he died suddenly. A pyramid is always ready for the king to be buried in.
Based on this simple thought I started looking for evidence to support this completely new theory:
Surprisingly I found the following evidence
  1)Zoser stepped pyramid in Sakkara ( the oldest pyramid)was built  this way, any one can notice that it started as one Mastaba using small size stone, then the base  dimensions was increased (using bigger stone size)and two more steps were added, finally you can notice the third increase of base dimensions and the added three more steps.(
2) There is a pyramid in ZAWIET EL ERIAN south of Giza called the MULTI LAYER PYRAMID it dates back to the third dynasty, this was studied by a Harvard university Cooperating with Boston Fine Art Museum in 1910, they published there work in the Museum Annuals, was discussed later in “Riezner” book about the development of Egyptian tomb in 1938.
     It is clearly mentioned that it has a square core (11 m the side) added to it 14 side layers 3.6 m wide. (Was built from the center out)
3)El KAWLA PYRAMID in front of El KAP City near Aswan .(was built from the center out)   a Square Core and 3 side layers the first one is 12 courses of height 4.3 m the second 10 courses , the third  one collapsed.
4) MAYDOOM PYRAMID about 50 km south of Giza made of a square core and 8 side layers around it. . (Was built from the center out)
5) SAHURA PYRAMID in ABU SIR (5th Dynasty) a core and 6 side layers getting smaller towards the outside. (Was built from the center out).
6)All the pyramids we know about have different dimensions and different quality of building and this may reflect many things like the kings rule time, the centralized management power, the natural disasters,  and the population , so in my opinion , there was no way they decided beforehand what dimensions their pyramid would be.
7)It is noticed that  the location of  of pyramid’s entrances differ from a pyramid to another, and in some cases it is still outside the building (like khefren’s pyramid) which means that they never planned its location but it was to be where it was when the work stopped.
Cool Practically and from the constructional engineering point of view it is much easier to leave spaces for rooms and corridors while building from inside out, and it is more flexible allowing changes of design and addition of extra rooms.
 

......continued
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Qoais
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« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2009, 09:32:46 pm »

.......continued
The second surprise for the whole world is to announce that
Ancient Egyptians Knew and Used WHEELS, and pulleys as early as the old kingdom (2800 BC)
WHEELS where found depicted on one of the walls of a noble man of the
5 Th dynasty called “kha-em-heseit” in Sakkara it is clearly showing a huge ladder standing up right on 4 wheels with two persons holding long bars
(Handspike) in such a way to prevent it moving or sliding, the ladder is so big that it could carry five men to work on scaling the wall at the same time.
2) PULLEYS the concept of pulleys was well known to them in the old kingdom time as they showed pulleys made of ropes (a rope passes through a ring made of rope) used for raising boat sails. Can be observed in Merirouka tomb in Sakkara and where else a boat with sail was depicted.
    Another good evidence is what can be seen inside the king’s burial chamber in the north pyramid of Senefrue in Dahshur (the red pyramid) , there you can see a tree trunk fixed horizontally across the room with very clear marks of ropes that used it like a pulley.
 
CONCLUSION:
1) Work started by choosing the building site, and digging the underground burial chamber and the corridors leading to it up to the ground level.
2) The core mastaba was built first in a square shape the side length varies from 10 to 20 meters.
3) Stones were lifted up to the second course using movable wooden ramps made of cedar wood; they could use wheels and pulleys as well.
4) They finish building a small pyramid in the center (without the cap stone).
5) A layer was added around this small pyramid of thickness ranging from 4 to 10 meters and they work on finishing the bigger pyramid.
6) They continue in the same way until they meet the corridor leading to the burial chamber where they start leaving space for the corridor extension.
7) At any moment they could leave a space for a new room and leave space for the corridors leading to it in case of sudden change of plans.
8)work continue until they either receive orders to stop enlarging the pyramid or the king died, then they move on to casing the pyramid with white lime stone reaching the amazing precision in the joints between the blocks to prevent water leakage inside the pyramid ( see the broken Vase theory).
Cool They placed the CAP STONE on the top
9)they cut the casing stones to the required  angle , using wooden scaffolds tied with ropes they could reach any heights the needed, also they used fine ropes to adjust and level their cutting and smoothening then polishing .
 I hope this Theory would enlighten people’s minds to start looking at pyramid building from a new prospective.

http://www.hanyra.com/index_files/Buildingpyramidsfromthecenterout.htm
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Qoais
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« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2009, 09:38:27 pm »

Some time ago, when I was studying about the pyramids, I came to the conclusion, that they did have to build from the center out.  Otherwise, they would not have been able to build the chambers - King and Queen's.  I suspect they would build to a certain level where the chameber was going to be - build the chamber  - like a house sort of thing - and then continue building up around it.  I suspect also, that the gallery was built up as well as it was used to bring the blocks up to the King's chamber.  Then I think the levels were built up again, until they reached the ceiling height of the King's chamber and they could just slide the blocks across to make the relieving chambers without having to lift the block into place.
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
iwannano
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« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2010, 06:20:12 pm »

Qoasis, If you haven't seen this I think you will appreciate it.

http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/egypt/articles/stonetech.php

As an old machinist I can say from experimental experience turning stone on a lathe is insane (yes I have tried a number of times only to have the piece explode/shatter just when it was starting to look like something). I can also testify that attempting to machine stone on a machine that isn't completely ridgid will have disasterous results. I cannot imagine how they were able to accomplish these items without cast iron or steel machine much less power to turn them. Again the turning must be steady, not some cow turning a  wheel.

http://members.tripod.com/~kon_artz/cultures/stonetec.htm

check out the spools on the above link

I made some napkin holders by using two different size diamond holes saws and a chunk of blue granite mounted in my 22" lathe. I drilled the bigger hole first and then in the cylinder that made I drilled the smaller hole. Then using a diamond cutoff wheel I cut through everything until I was able to free up the ring. It was a lot of work using diamond tools in a heavy iron lathe turned by electricity and I ended up with some rough 1.5" od by 1.125" id rings. The spools on the above link are thin and have raised lips that are also thin. Ask some stone cutters how they did that.

My point with all this is that no one knows how the pyramids were built but I think it is safe to say that the conventional wisdom is wrong. The technology they used is gone, steel rusts, aliens go home and when looking for answers sometimes thinking out of the box is the right path.

I enjoy reading your posts.
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Qoais
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« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2010, 01:06:14 am »

Well hello iwannano!  How you been?  How come you go away for such a long time at a stretch?  I'm glad you enjoy reading my posts Smiley

I too believe the conventional wisdom is wrong when it comes to how they built the pyramids, but I've been bashed about enough in other forums by the orthodox skeptics, to stop arguing about it.  I just noticed your post, so will go check the links you've given.
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

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Qoais
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« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2010, 01:14:40 am »

Yes, I've seen those sites before.  In fact, I have contacted Prof. Davidovits quite a few times regarding his geopolymer theory, and Prof. Barsoum also. 

There is no doubt in MY mind that something was used to build these incredible structures, other than stone and copper tools.  Nevermind the fact that they fit with such precision.  THAT'S really the baffling part.  Especially some of those stones that go around corners!! 
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An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
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