900 or 9000 Years BC?

[Helios]

Riven

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  posted 07-17-2004 03:06 AM                       
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Looking at these two links makes it virtually impossible that Solon made a mistake between thousand and hundreds of years around 570 bC.
So I doubt Herodotus made a mistake as the legend was still fresh in mind around 4-300 bC, so how could Socrates, Critias and Plato make that mistake?

The Priest also took Solon to see the written records. Judging from the great difference in the Egyptian symbol for 100 and 1000, it is highly unlikely they made a mistake.

Egyptian numbers; http://www.jimloy.com/egypt/numbers.htm

Egyptian calendar: http://www.jimloy.com/egypt/time0.htm


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Posts: 4113 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Helios]

dhill757

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   posted 07-18-2004 09:23 PM                       
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Great links as usual, Riven. There's no question that the Egyptian symbol for one hundred cannot be mistaken for the Egyptian symbol for one thousand, so if the story happened as true, it was probably 9000 years on the Egyptian end.
However, there are a couple of variables. First, the Egyptians may have not used the exact date, 9000, but rather something along the lines of "a long time ago." 9000, being the biggest number in the Greek numerical system at the time, may have been the only way that Solon could address the issue of time.

Second, if by some chance the Egyptians weren't involved, then the Egyptian numerical system wouldn't even come into play. If that were the case, it also wouldn't matter because then the whole story would have either been a composite of sorts, or made up entirely (something I don't believe, of course).

I take much of this at it's face value, always have, probably always will.

Did Herodotus make any mention of Atlantis? I brought this possibility up to Jonas one time and he flatly said he didn't.


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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004   

[Helios]

 
Riven

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  posted 07-18-2004 10:30 PM                       
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Thank you dhill757.
Herodotus,as far as we know made no mention of Atlantis other than the Atalantes region and the trip of Solon to Egypt. If I recall he did make mention of an island past the pillars where the Carthagenians were wanting to visit. They would leave their trade items on the island and the natives would replace what they wanted with Gold and jewellery. Neither side taking what they wanted without agreement.

It is peculiar that Herodotus made no direct mention of Atlantis unless that work hasn't been found yet or he was unaware of it since he preceded Plato, especially considering he recounts Solon's visit to Egypt. Maybe Plato stole the story from Herodotus?

Herodotus wrote the Histories around 440-430 bC.

Book I

"On this account, as well as to see the world, Solon set out upon his travels, in the course of which he went to Egypt to the court of Amasis, and also came on a visit to Croesus at Sardis."
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html

Herodotus on Mauretania

"The Carthaginians also relate the following: There is a country in Libya, and a nation, beyond the Pillars of Hercules, which they are wont to visit, where they no sooner arrive but forthwith they unlade their wares, and, having disposed them after an orderly fashion along the beach, leave them, and, returning aboard their ships, raise a great smoke. The natives, when they see the smoke, come down to the shore, and, laying out to view so much gold as they think the worth of the wares, withdraw to a distance. The Carthaginians upon this come ashore and look. If they think the gold enough, they take it and go their way; but if it does not seem to them sufficient, they go aboard ship once more, and wait patiently. Then the others approach and add to their gold, till the Carthaginians are content. Neither party deals unfairly by the other: for they themselves never touch the gold till it comes up to the worth of their goods, nor do the natives ever carry off the goods till the gold is taken away."


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Posts: 4113 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   
 

[Helios]

Riven

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  posted 07-18-2004 11:52 PM                       
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Herodotus histories
Book 8.25
four thousand = tesseres chiliades
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0125:book=8:chapter=25:section=1

The Athenians, while the Pelasgians ruled what is now called Hellas, were Pelasgians, bearing the name of Cranai. When Cecrops was their king they were called Cecropidae, and when Erechtheus succeeded to the rule, they changed their name and became Athenians. When, however, Ion son of Xuthus was commander of the Athenian army, they were called after him Ionians.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=8:chapter=44:section=1

hexakosioi= six hundred

enakischilia=nine thousand
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0179:div1=Criti.:section=108e

Even though muriades means a great many in Greek, it is not a specific number as we find in Critias and other scripts where they were indeed meant to be specific.

LXXXII. As for marvels, there are none in the land, except that it has by far the greatest and the most numerous rivers in the world; and over and above the rivers and the great extent of the plains there is one most marvellous thing for me to mention: they show a footprint of Heracles by the Tyras river stamped on rock, like the mark of a man's foot, but forty inches in length.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&query=chapter%3D%23646&loc=4.81.1


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Posts: 4113 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

[Helios]

rockessence

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   posted 07-19-2004 03:26 AM                       
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Riven,
The links seem to be inoperable at the moment, I was hoping to check out the last one...
"except that it has by far the greatest and the most numerous rivers in the world; "

I was wondering which country is meant here?



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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

[Helios]

 
Riven

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  posted 07-19-2004 03:42 AM                       
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rockessence;
Hyperborea, Europe, Scythia
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Posts: 4113 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   
 

[Helios]

Smiley4554

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  posted 07-19-2004 10:53 AM                       
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dhill, I have been saying the same thing about the Mid-Atlantic Ridge for I don't know how long. Unfortunately, since the AR "purge" we cannot go back to retrieve it, so I'll get the links again.
There are actually 10 plains within the Atlantic Ocean stretching from top to bottom.

On the link below, you can access the map(s). I particularly like these maps since it lists almost every place within the oceans.

You will need the North & South Atlantic maps as well as the Antarctic and Arctic maps.
http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=natlantc

Biscay
Sohm
Hatteras
Cape Verde
Demeraro

If you will notice, the Atlantic Floor is has a clear shape. It follows exactly the shapes of both the American continents & Europe & African continents.

The Mid-Atlantic Ridge ripped the 2 apart - right down the center - while ALSO following the shape of these continents. It continues all the way up & down the Atlantic ocean into the Antarctic & Arctic Oceans.

Quite clearly, the entire area looks as if it sunk altogether.
http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=satlantc

Pernambuco
Angola
Cape
Argentine

http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=antarcoc

Weddell
http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=arcticoc

I have listed all of the 10 plains in the Atlantic Ocean. Since it is written that there were 10 kings of Atlantis, this is not really a stretch of an imagination to figure this one out.

The easiest way is to print out all 4 maps, and splice them together for a whole picture.

There is ample evidence to support EVERYONE'S theory (except those outside the Atlantic Ocean) that all of the areas mentioned were Atlantis.

In order to get 10 Kingdoms, one has to realize that those 10 Kingdoms were not on top of each other. Atlantis was either the name of the combined islands' country, or it was the name of the "capital" city. Frankly, I believe it was the former. Well, I guess it could have been like "New York, New York". It would have been "Atlantis, Atlantis".

Regardless, with 10 kids, there had to be a large area.

Now, Atlantis had conquered almost every interior Mediterranean country EXCEPT Athens (Greece), or they had a colony (city). Again, not a stretch of the imagination. The areas of the known world which Atlantis had conquered were probably also split up & ruled by each of the 10 kings from their kingdom. Each was charged with certain areas to keep them "in line".

But, they were not satisfied. They wanted ALL the countries, so they attacked Athens, and lost. Why? Interesting question. Perhaps it was the topography & fighting in an unknown area. There were 20,000 warriors in Athens which included both male & female. But, whatever the reason, Atlantis was defeated.

Soon after, the destruction came, and it also included the Mediterranean countries for even Athens army sank in the mud, and the acropolis topsoil was completely washed away leaving only the rock on which it now stands. This indicates that a great flood washed over the area (not as much as in the Atlantic, but one large enough to do this type of damage.

Therefore, I submit...Atlantis stretched from the North to the South, from the East of the Americas to the West of Africa & Europe, and their kingdon encompassed most of the then-known world.

------------------
"Love your enemies ! It drives 'em nuts !!" Anonymus

If you have any questions or complaints or even just want to chat, e-mail me @ the following: (Just make sure you put "AR" in the subject line) as well as your user name on AR. Otherwise, it will be deleted. Thank you. Kim

Smiley4554@hotmail.com





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Posts: 5641 | From: Arkansas...USA | Registered: Jan 2001   

[Helios]

Spiritwalker
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Rate Member   posted 07-19-2004 02:40 PM                       
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In order to get 10 Kingdoms, one has to realize that those 10 Kingdoms were not on top of each other. Atlantis was either the name of the combined islands' country, or it was the name of the "capital" city. Frankly, I believe it was the former. Well, I guess it could have been like "New York, New York". It would have been "Atlantis, Atlantis".
Regardless, with 10 kids, there had to be a large area.

That's a great point Smiley,

I found this old book called Gods graves and Scholars,
on page 318 he talks about the Greeks and how they still thought the number 10,000 as a "large uncountable aggregation. Not until the nineteenth century did the concept million become common in the West.
BY contrast cuneiform texts records mathematical number system expressed as 195,955,200,000,000 this means the realms of calculation did not again enter the realm of calculation until the days of Descartes and Leibniz.


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Posts: 1616 | From: qwnfd | Registered: Dec 2003   

[Helios]

dhill757

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   posted 07-19-2004 11:34 PM                       
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Smiley, great work on figuring the topography of what would be the Atlantean empire! Most likely, Atlantis was the name for the whole empire, while Poseidonis was the name of the island.
Why did Atlantis lose the war to Athens..? You asked, so I'll tell you, my theory anyway. First, the elements and the topography would have had to play some role in it. As they fought, whatever catastrophe that absorbed Atlantis would have already been into effect. My guess is it moved east, not west. I'm guessing, if all this is true, an asteroid hit the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the place was torn apart and sunk by the earthquakes that Plato mentions, not to mention tsunamis. Catastrophe mentioned they can get up to 6,000 feet high. Water that powerful obliterates all it touches. Atlantis would be gone quickly.

As for the ships and army fighting throughout the Mediterranean. There was probably also a massive deluge also taking place. It would take about twenty hours for the catastrophe to reach Europe and absorb those doing the fighting. The Athenians would be more familiar with the topography, but even that would not give them the edge they needed, being so outnumbered.

There is one place in Greece that is famous for a small army holding back thousands, Thermapolyae. There, three hundred Spartans held back a Persian force numbering one hundred thousand for three days. It would be an eerie echo if something similar happened there years before.

So, on a stormy day eleven thousand years ago, the Athens and Atlantis battled under a gray rain until a massive tsunami, straight from the Atlantic, came in and destroyed both armies, the ships, too.

And that was how the Atlantean army was destroyed! It's so real to me that sometimes I see it in my dreams.


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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004 

[Helios]

Smiley4554

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  posted 07-20-2004 09:53 AM                       
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Thanks, Spirit & dhill. This topography was brought up by me quite a long time ago, but the topic no longer exists.
Anyway, this was debated quite a bit, but for some reason, no one could negate it. Oh, some tried, but they were not very convincing.

Think I'll post an all-new topic on this as well.


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Posts: 5641 | From: Arkansas...USA | Registered: Jan 2001   

[Helios]

Helios

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   posted 07-27-2004 01:30 AM                       
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10th millennium BC
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

(Pleistocene, Paleolithic – 10th millennium BC – 9th millennium BC – other millennia)

Beginning of the Mesolithic, or Epipaleolithic time period, which is the first part of the Holocene epoch.

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[edit]


Events

* circa 10,000 BC – Beginning of Jomon era in Japan
* circa 9600 BC – End of the Younger Dryas cold period -- boundary between Pleistocene and Holocene and traditionally the boundary between the Paleolithic and Mesolithic
* Before 9000 BC – First stone structures at Jericho

[edit]


Discoveries

* circa 10,000 BC – ceramic of the Jomon culture in Japan
* circa 10,000 BC – the dog is domesticated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_millennium_BC



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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   

[Helios]

Helios

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   posted 07-27-2004 01:44 AM                       
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Deities of Greek Mythology
* Primordial
deities
* Titans
* Olympians
* Sea gods

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Aquatic deities:

* Poseidon
* Oceanus
* Ceto
* Nereus
* Glaucus
* Thetis
* Amphitrite
* Tethys


* Triton
* Proteus
* Phorcys
* Pontus
* Oceanids
* Nereids
* Naiads


The ancient Greeks had a large number of sea gods.

The philosopher Plato once remarked that the Greeks were like frogs sitting around a pond - their many cities hugging close to the Mediterranean coastline from the Hellenic homeland to Asia Minor, Libya, Sicily and Sourthern Italy. It was natural, therefore, to develop a rich variety of aquatic divinities. The Greek sea gods include everything from primordial powers and an Olympian to chthonic nymphs, trickster figures, and monsters.

Perhaps borrowing from Near Eastern mythology, where water-deities like Tiamat and Apsu are the first gods, some early Greek thinkers made the sea-divinities into primordial powers. Oceanus and Tethys are the mother and father of the gods in the Iliad, while the Spartan poet Alcman made the nymph Thetis a demiurge-figure.

Poseidon, who once outshone Zeus in the Mycenean pantheon, was an important Olympian power; he was the chief patron of Corinth, many cities of Magna Graecia, and also Plato's legendary Atlantis.

Several sea gods conform to a single type: that of the halios geron or Old Man of the Sea. These are Nereus, Proteus, Glaucus and Phorkys. Each one is a shape-shifter, a prophet, and the father of either radiantly beautiful nymphs and hideous monsters. Each one emphasizes different aspects of the archetype: Proteus was known primarily as a shape-shifter and trickster, Phorcys as a father of monsters, Nereus for truth-telling and the beauty of his daughters, and Glaucus as a prophet.

Each one of these Old Men is the father or grandfather of many nymphs and/or monsters, who often bear names that are either allegorical (Thetis, "establishment"; Telesto, "success") or geographical (Rhode from "Rhodes"; Nilos, "Nile"). Each cluster of Old Man and daughters is therefore a kind of pantheon in miniature, each one a different possible configuration of the spiritual, moral and physical world writ small - and writ around the sea.

Homer's Odyssey contains a haunting description of a cave of the Nereids on Ithaca, close by a harbor sacred to Phorcys. The Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry read this passage as an allegory of the whole universe - and he may not have far off the mark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_sea_gods


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004

[Helios]

rockessence

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   posted 07-27-2004 01:50 AM                       
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Dhill,
Regarding :

"There is one place in Greece that is famous for a small army holding back thousands, "

In Crete is the famous Samaria Gorge which runs from the high mountains in the middle of Crete to the south coast. There is a location where the sheer cliff walls narrow to around 10 feet! There are lots of stories of holding off attackers over the centuries, right up to the early part of last century (Turks).

The Greeks have always been masters at attack. When Mussolini sent his troups around the Adriatic to "sweep" into western Greece, the mountain villagers threw rocks from behind boulders at the soldiers and took all their guns! Which led to the German Storm-troopers being sent to take Greece, which took all of 6 weeks. Then when they tried to take Crete, it took them 6 months!


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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 20

[Helios]

Brig

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Rate Member   posted 07-27-2004 06:19 PM                       
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Helios: A recent report shows that dogs were buried with or close to people over 40,000 years ago. I guess it depends on how you define, "Domesticated". There is circumstantial evidence that indicate people had dogs a lot longer, yet, than that.
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Posts: 10082 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002

[Helios]

dhill757

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   posted 07-31-2004 03:07 AM                       
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http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1598
The Date of 11,600 Before Present

* Plato affirms that the demise of Atlantis took place "9,000 years before the times of Solon". Now, Solon visited Egypt at about 600 BC, which adds to a total of about 11,600 BP (Before Present). Now, this is precisely the date of the cataclysmic ending of the Pleistocene Ice Age, as given by the geologic record. So, we are led to conclude that Plato's date is correct, and that the Greek philosopher indeed knew what he was talking about.

* Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian, tells us that 2,600 years before his time, certain navigants crossed beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and dealt with the Tartessians. Now, these Tartessians — who are often identified with the Atlanteans — had, he affirms, written records of their history that amounted to 7,000 years before their own time. Again, this adds to a date of about 11,600 BP, precisely as preconized by Plato for the Atlantean cataclysm, for Strabo flourished in the times of Christ.

* Arnobius, a Christian bishop of the fourth century AD, told in one of his sermons concerning the catastrophes that have previously destroyed human civilization, that "ten thousand years ago, a vast number of men burst forth from the island which is called Atlantis of Neptune, as Plato tells us, and utterly ruined and blotted out countless nations." Again, the date given by Arnobius turns out to be precisely the one of 11,600 BC. Though Arnobius' relation seems to be based on that of Plato, he had access to sources now lost that apparently confirmed Plato's disclosure in an independent way.

* Manetho, the Egyptian historian, places the start of the dynasty of the "Spirits of the Dead" 5,813 years before Menes, the first king of unified Egypt. Now, Menes flourished between 3,100 and 3,800 BC or perhaps, even earlier, as some specialists claim. Again, this gives a date between 11,000 and 11,600 BC, in close agreement with the one given by Plato. It is quite probable that the "Spirits of the Dead" of Manetho were indeed the survivors of the Atlantean cataclysm, the same dead ancestors that the Romans called Lemures or Lares.

* The Hindu traditions on the Yugas, as well as the similar ones of the Persians, hold that the eras of mankind last about 12,000 years each. On the other hand, these and other traditions maintain that we now enter, in the year 2,000, the final millennium of the present era, which started just after the demise of Atlantis. So, once again, we are led to the conclusion that the Atlantean cataclysm took place between 11,000 and 12,000 years ago.

* The Codex Troano of the Mayas, translated by Augustus le Plongeon, the celebrated Mayanist, recounts the tragedy of Lemurian Atlantis, which sunk away in a terrible cataclysm. It tells that millions of people died in the cataclysm, and that the event took place "8,060 years before the writing of this book." Supposing that the codex was written at about 1,500 BC, the start of the pre-classic Era, when the Mayan (Olmec) civilization sprung, we get a date for the cataclysm of about 11,600 BP. This is in perfect agreement with the date given by Plato. As is known, the Mayas originally came to America from an overseas paradise called Aztlan which sunk away underseas. Aztlan in visibly no other thing than Plato's Atlantis. Except that Aztlan was located beyond the Pacific, rather than the Atlantic Ocean.

* The Ramayana — the book that tells the destruction of Lanka by Rama and Hanumant — affirms that this war took place some 10,000 years before its own times. Now, the experts agree that the Ramayana was written at about 300 BC by Valmiki. Thus, the destruction of Lanka — which is no other thing than the one of Atlantis — took place at about 12,000 BP or so, in fair agreement with the date given by Plato.

* Hindu traditions affirm that the first sangham (poetic academy) lasted for 4,400 years. The second one for 3,700 years. And the third and last one, which ended at about the start of the Christian era, lasted for 1,850 years. This yields at total of 11,900 BP for the start of the sanghams which, tradition holds, began shortly after the Flood. Considering that the Flood corresponds to the cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis, this Hindu tradition on the poetic academics confirms the date of Plato with excellent accuracy.

* The end of the Pleistocene Ice Age — the date of whose closely coincides with the one of 11,600 BP given by Plato for Atlantis' demise — also marks the rise of agriculture, of city-building and of the Neolithic both in the Old and the New Worlds. According to a universal tradition, civilization was brought just about everywhere by white, blond, blue-eyed, titanic giants. These giants are no other than the Atlanteans fleeing their destroyed Paradise and moving into their new homelands in order to make a fresh start. As if to confirm this worldwide tradition, it is at this date that we start to find fossil skeletons of Cro-Magnoid men, so often equated with the Atlanteans. And these are found precisely the sites connected with the rise of the Neolithic and of Civilization

* Arthur Posnansky — the German-Bolivian archaeologist who long studied Tiahuanaco, the site of origin of the Incan civilization of Peru and Bolivia — concluded that this region of the Andes was formerly a seaport which suffered an uplift of about 3,000 meters. This cataclysm happened at about 11 or 12 thousand years ago, precisely the epoch of the Atlantean demise.

* Bruce Heezen, the famous oceanographer of the Lamont Geological Observatory, showed that sea-level underwent a rise of about 100 to 150 meters worldwide at about 11,600 BP. This rise resulted from the meltwaters of the Ice Age glaciers that covered a substantial portion of the continents in the temperate regions of the world and which were up to a few kilometers in thickness. Heezen also pointed out that this rise of sea-level was sufficient to drown most low-lying coastal regions of the planet. In particular, the region that now forms the South China Sea averages under 60 meters or so in depth. Thus, this region — precisely the one which we preconize to have been the site of Atlantis — got submerged by the rising waters, just as affirmed by Plato.

* Turning to Egyptian traditions, the source on which Plato bases his legend of Atlantis. The famous zodiac of Dendera — which was copied from far older versions whose origins are lost in the night of times — indicates that the constellation Leo lay at the vernal point in the epoch of its start. Now, the era of Leo centers at about 11,720 BC, in close agreement with the date given by Plato for the end of Atlantis and the start of the present era. What event but the cataclysmic end of the Pleistocene Ice Age and the consequent demise of Atlantis could better serve for the new start of times marked in that famous zodiac?

* Makrisi, a famous Arab historian of Egypt, affirms that "fire issued from the sign of Leo to destroy the world." This conflagration apparently confirms the above connection between the star of Dendera's zodiac and the Atlantean cataclysm disclosed by Plato. The Arabs conquered Egypt, and inherited its magnificent culture and traditions, and it is quite likely that Makrisi was basing himself on them.

* A Coptic papyrus indicates the same date for the Atlantean cataclysm. According to it: "the Flood will take place when the heart of the Lion (Aldebaran) enters the start of the head of Cancer". In other words, the papyrus affirms that when the vernal point coincided with the center of Leo — an event that took place some 11,600 years ago — the Flood took place, destroying Atlantis and ending the Pleistocene Ice Age, which had lasted for some 2.5 millions of years. In the terrible event, a great many species of mammals and other creatures became extinct all over the world. This fact attests the universal character of the tragedy.


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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004