900 or 9000 Years BC?

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Essan

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   posted 07-10-2004 09:10 AM                       
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Hi Dhill  Yes, sadly there's just not enough hours in the day, or I'd post here more often.
I dismiss the idea that the missing piece of the continental jigsaw is Atlantis, simply because continental landmases don't 'disappear'. They may be covered by shallow, continenatl seas, but not deep ocean. And there's no geological process (that I'm aware of) that fits in with a Continental mid Atlantic landmass. Remember - the mid Atlantic ridge is where the 2 continents are moving apart.

The best chance, then, for a mid Atlantic Atlantis is - IMO - a higher mid atlantic ridge coupled with lower sea levels. This is certainly possible. And I have considered the possiblity that lifestock, crops, tress etc could all have been brought there by the Atlanteans. But why? There were lots of other places they could have gone to live that would have been much easier to get to and where food and other materials were more plentiful.

That's basically the crux of my (current) argument against a mid Atlantic (and against an Antarctic) Atlantis: why would anyone have gone there in the first place? What could it have offered that Europe, Africa and the Americas didn't?



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Posts: 394 | From: Evesham, Worcs, England | Registered: Oct 2
 

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Andre
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   posted 07-10-2004 01:04 PM                       
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Absonite, interesting stuff but I wonder who build that world vision and what was his substantiation.
Essan, No problem, you're welcome. Let me destroy the Atlantis theories even a bit more. I have glanced at Erick Wrights discovery of the homographs of the names of the kings of Atlantis and this reveals that the whole story is a very clever construction of Plato (or Solon) up to the finest details, to make a philosophical point about the difference between belief and truth. Something still extremely actual today. But the consequence is also that Atlantis is a mere tool of Plato to make that point. Consequently, IMO the quest was not about Atlantis, but about experiencing the difference between truth and belief. That quest has ended.

Dhill, interesting material and the references are retrievable. However that quote on that page was not complete: This loox like a copy of the original article:
http://horn.alein.de/flat-topped.jpg

And of course uplift and subsidence is quite normal for active volcanic regions. But a few hundred meters RTPW, some more ice still on the Laurentide ice sheet and some tectonic uplift could certainly have done the trick. I wonder why there are no more recent reports. The Ocean Drilling Program (ODP) has plowged about every square mile of the ocean bottom.

Edit:
Addition: that 12,000 carbon years of that limestone is of course measured with still the old problems of carbon dating actual. Nowadays it would require 2500 years correction after the calibration with dendrochronology and varves. So it's probably 14,500 years in reality.


[This message has been edited by Andre (edited 07-10-2004).]


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Posts: 758 | From: Zoetermeer, the Netherlands | Registered: Dec 2001   

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dhill757

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   posted 07-11-2004 12:47 AM                       
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Essan,
Continental land masses don't disappear, what if Atlantis were something a little smaller..? The Atlantic does have a habit of spitting out and devouring islands all the time, witness, "Surtsey" back in 1963, created by volcanic eruptions, off the coast of Iceland. As for what a continental land mass might look like at the bottom of the sea, how would we know what it looked like? To my knowledge, none have ever been discovered before. Depending on how long ago it sunk, it might no longer resemble a continent at all.

As for why would they stay there when they had Europe to also go to..? Well,both Indonesia and Australia were settled as early as 40,000 years ago, which not only proves that there may well have been sea-faring travel at such an early time, but also that they might well have been to the islands of the Atlantic as well. Why would they stay..? of course they would have been born there and it would have become their home.

Andre,

Re: Erick's new theory,well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

A lot of the evidence, both pro and con, seems to be in the eye of the beholder, and that is certainly true also about the recent theory. My own personal opinion is that belief in Atlantis is a lot like belief in God, either you believe in it or not. If you didn't really believe in it in the first place, it's probably not going to take a lot to convince you otherwise. Since that's already being covered in another thread, though, I'd appreciate it if we didn't also begin talking about it here.

Here is another article from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 03/15/04 you might be interested in, unedited. It isn't "proof" of Atlantis, but it does have some pretty vital facts in it about what we know about the oceans and makes me eager to hear of what becomes of their expedition:

Scientists to drill beneath oceans


By Robert S. Boyd

Inquirer Washington Bureau


WASHINGTON - In a research program getting under way
this summer, shipboard scientists will punch thousands of
holes in the ocean bottom and take samples from greater
depths than ever before. They will be investigating the
biology, chemistry and physics of "inner space," the vast
world hidden beneath the seas.

The Integrated Ocean Drilling Program, led by American and
Japanese scientists, begins in June with a 10-month
expedition to plumb the crust beneath the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.

The layers of rock below the seafloor are an archive of global change, tens of millions of years old, that scientists say can
help them understand what's happening to our world today.

Researchers are especially interested in hordes of microbes thriving in a complex "plumbing system" of life-supporting fluids
coursing through cracks in the rocks thousands of feet below the ocean bottom. Some organisms may have medical or
commercial value.

"There's a whole ecology living down there," said Theodore Moore Jr., an oceanographer at the University of Michigan. "It's
very likely some species will be of direct benefit to humans."

Some scientists believe life on Earth may have begun in these gloomy caverns far from sun and air about four billion years
ago. If life exists on other planets or moons, they say it may be found in similar dark environments, sheltered from lethal
cosmic rays and meteor bombardments.

The new international drilling project, involving researchers from 20 countries, is a stepped-up successor to a smaller,
American-led Ocean Drilling Program that ended last fall. Over 18 years, from 1985 to 2003, the U.S. research ship JOIDES
Resolution bored about 2,000 holes at 650 different sites around the world, making many significant scientific observations.

For instance, an expedition a year ago in the tropical Atlantic turned up evidence, buried in seafloor sediment, of repeated
episodes of rapid global warming that led to massive plant and animal extinction in the distant past.

"Without exploring the basics of how these systems work, we can't have confidence in our ability to predict their behavior
on shorter time scales, like human lifespans," said Margaret Delaney, an ocean scientist at the University of California,
Santa Cruz.

As part of the new program, researchers also will investigate how events at the ocean bottom can touch off dangerous
earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.

"The dynamics of the Earth's interior processes... have a major financial and safety impact," Delaney said in an e-mail.

On its latest voyage, scientists aboard the Resolution successfully matched the chemistry and geology of portions of the
seafloor off Newfoundland to similar formations off the coasts of Spain and Portugal. The match confirmed that North
America and Europe once belonged to a single continent that split apart about 145 million years ago, opening the way for the
formation of the Atlantic Ocean.

Previous drilling operations have:

Confirmed the theory of plate tectonics, which describes the breakup and movement of the continents.

Discovered the mid-ocean ridge, a 40,000-mile underwater mountain chain encircling the globe like the laces on a baseball.

Studied the great ocean currents that control temperatures on land.

Located traces of enormous sheets of ancient lava as much as 20 miles thick that spewed from undersea volcanoes. One such
deposit covered almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and
Africa's Ivory Coast.

Despite these achievements, most of the ocean floor and interior remain virtually unknown, project scientists acknowledge.

The new program will have two research vessels at its disposal.

A Japanese drill ship, the Chikyu, now under construction, will begin operations in 2006. The U.S. National Science
Foundation is seeking $100 million for a more capable vessel to replace the 26-year-old Resolution, which will be retired in
Galveston, Texas, next year.

Before it puts away its drill bits, the Resolution will make one more cruise under the auspices of the international program.
The voyage will start June 24 in the Northeast Pacific, studying the biology and geology of the seafloor off the coast of
Oregon, Washington and British Columbia.

Next fall and winter, the Resolution will move to the North Atlantic near the Azores, Greenland and Iceland. It will also try
to drill a hole in the seafloor of the Arctic Ocean.

"This will be the first time we've ever done that," Moore said. "We don't have any idea what we're going to find."

The U.S. National Science Foundation, the Japanese Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, and the
European Consortium for Ocean Research Drilling are sponsoring the research. Countries in Europe and Asia are expected to
share operating costs of $160 million a year when both ships are at work.



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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004 

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atlantisturk
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Rate Member   posted 07-11-2004 12:52 AM                       
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The answer can be found in phaistos disc found in Crete, in 1908. According to Nurihan Fattah, a Kazan University professor, reading this disc in Tatarian Turkish, in Atlantis the written and spoken language was Turkish.
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Posts: 1 | From: Ýstanbul Turkey | Registered: Jul 2004

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Brig

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Rate Member   posted 07-11-2004 04:54 PM                       
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Essan, speaking of landmasses not sinking deeply in the ocean. If that large apparent area off the coast of Cuba actually turns out to be the ruins of a vast city complex, as it very much appears it could be, then forces of sinking land may be much more acute than is the popular opinion. Never be too certain, in science, of anything. Too many unknowns tend to topple theories. Keep an open mind. There are simply things under the sun that do not attend to our best theories and tend to ocassionaly rear up and bite us in the butt.
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Posts: 10082 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002   

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rockessence

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   posted 07-11-2004 07:20 PM                       
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Brig,
That area off of Cuba didn't necessasarily sink, but may have been dry during the Ice-time if the sea level of the Atlantic was low enough. The Caribbean island chain forms a mountain chain all the way to So. America. This may have held back the ocean water for a long, long time.


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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

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Essan

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   posted 07-12-2004 04:06 AM                       
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The possible city Brig trefers to is under 2,000ft of water, so would never have been on dry land during the ice age, unless the land it's on has sunk an awful lot since then.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1697038.stm
You're right Brig, there's always the possibility of something new coming up and overturning our paradigms, but for the most part they're variations on an old theme rather than something entirely new.

So, for the time being, I prefer to stick with conventional geology which leaves us with just a small possibility a part of the Mid Atlantic Ridge to have been dry for a few thousand years during the ice age. But only a few scatrece plants and insects would have inhabited it - hardly a place for humans to make home. The difference with Indonesia and Australia is that they've always been above sea level and have always had a huge variety of flora and fauna.

Small islands do appear - and sometimes disappear again - around Iceland as a consequence of volcanoc activity. But for an island the size Atalntic is supposed to have been, we're gonna need more than the odd volcano and some evidence would still exist after such a short space of (geological) time.

Getting back to the Cuban 'city'. The geology of the area is different to the Mid Atlantic ridge and massive subsidence of land into a subduction zone is a possibility. Of course, it's all speculation until we know if it is a city and/or how long it's been down there.

Maybe it's the remains of Dinopolis, destroyed by the Chixculub impact 65mya



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Posts: 394 | From: Evesham, Worcs, England | Registered: Oct 2002   

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rockessence

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   posted 07-12-2004 09:20 AM                       
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Essan,
I know that the "city", or remains, are at that depth. No one argues that the Mediterranean has not been dry a few times. I merely state that given that the chain of islands running from Florida to Venezuela are set in the form af a mountain chain, There is the possibility that the receding water levels in the oceans could have rendered the area dry during the long span of Ice-time.
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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004 

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dhill757

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   posted 07-13-2004 02:06 AM                       
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Essan,
I'm a little disappointed to see you don't attach much credence to the Laurasia theory, I still think it sounds pretty sound.

There are several ways that Atlantis might have existed:

1. The raised Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Depending on how many years it was above the surface, it needn't have been a barren rock. The Azores certainly aren't barren rocks, they have a lot of flora and fauna on them. Any Mid-Atlantic Ridge as Atlantis theory presumes that it was much like this. The temperatures there are almost a constant 70 degrees year round and the area gets a lot of rainfall.

2. Atlantis, like Surtsey, could have been one of the many volcanic islands "spit out" by the volatile Atlantic, then taken back at a later date. Iceland is such an island. One of the most telling parts of the article I posted is that there is a lava sheet that stretches 20 miles thick:

quotes from the Philadelphia Inquirer:

"Located traces of enormous sheets of ancient lava as much as 20 miles thick that spewed from undersea volcanoes. One such deposit covered almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and Africa's Ivory Coast."

"For instance, an expedition a year ago in the tropical Atlantic turned up evidence, buried in seafloor sediment, of repeated episodes of rapid global warming that led to massive plant and animal extinction in the distant past."

Both these could have something to do with Atlantis. Depending on how long it took for the lava to accumulate, Atlantis could be beneath the lava. "Repeated episodes of global warming that led to mass plant and animal extinction" also implies times where the Ice age could have come to an end quickly, bringing about massive tsunamis and flooding. Whatever we think we know, it is plain from the article that we still need to learn a lot more about the oceans.

3. Laurasia, this would imply a much older Atlantis, perhaps. I can certainly see that there is a "piece" missing from the continental plates between North America and Europe. Even if we take cotinental drift as a complete fact, the continents have been drifting apart for millions of years, we can only assume we know exactly what the map of the world looked like during all those earth changes.

4. The water levels being lower during the Ice Age, Atlantis could have been simply a larger version of one of the island chains we still have in the Atlantic now - the Azores, Madeiras, Canaries, etc. Yes, this would mean that Atlantis was smaller than Plato mentioned it being, but if you look at the description - one large central city surrounded by mountains and a large, flat rectangular plain, he does seem to be describing something along the lines of a large island rather than something of continental size.

5. Atlantis, according to the Oera Linde book, was also presumed to be a sunken area off Holland. I know very little about that, but I have heard that the sea is at it's shallowest in the area where this "other Atlantis" (circa 2193 for it's destruction), was supposed to have occurred.

6. Riven has also mapped out a bathymetric map of a area of the Atlantic that could have been Atlantis. I don't know where he got the information, but it takes in an area just east f the west of the Azores that includes both that island chain, Madeiras and the Canaries. Where is the proof that it exists? Well, there were underwater ruins found by the Russians found by the Ampere Seamounts, steps and walls, back in 1978, investigated all the more in subsequent expeditions.

your quote:

You're right Brig, there's always the possibility of something new coming up and overturning our paradigms, but for the most part they're variations on an old theme rather than something entirely new."

The reason for that is simple, science is simply very slow to accept any new ideas, it takes not only decades, but centuries. Geology itself is still a comparatively new science, created back in the 1800's. Underwater geology is even newer. The plain truth is that the oceans haven't been investigated as much as others would have us believe. Though the Mid-Atlantic Ridge was discovered back in the 1800's,and first investigated in the late 1940's, Robert Ballard was the one to do the first comprehensive study on it, which wasn't until 1973. Actually, scientists are still confirming the idea of plate tectonics, which, at times, is even at odds with continental drift.

If all this sounds like I'm very much "pro-Atlantis", well, it'e because I am! I'm actually a little disappointed you're not. I suppose you have to go where the textbooks take you, but the simple truth about science is the more we know, the more we find out we don't know. I try to look at all the scientific evidence people present trying to prove it aswell as disprove it. The sad truth of it all is that, no matter how people try and position themselves on experts on the topic, they really don't know. It all comes down to educated guesswork based on the only available data. The picure is far from complete, and we've only seen part of it.


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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004 

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Essan

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   posted 07-13-2004 05:46 AM                       
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Dhill:

quote:
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There are several ways that Atlantis might have existed:
1. The raised Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Depending on how many years it was above the surface, it needn't have been a barren rock. The Azores certainly aren't barren rocks, they have a lot of flora and fauna on them. Any Mid-Atlantic Ridge as Atlantis theory presumes that it was much like this. The temperatures there are almost a constant 70 degrees year round and the area gets a lot of rainfall.


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The Azores aren't barren rocks now, but, according to Andrew Collins (Gateway to Atlantis): "when the first Portuguese navigators reached the Azorean islands in 1427, they found them devoid not only of human life but also of any fauna" http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/interactive/midatlan.htm


quote:
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2. Atlantis, like Surtsey, could have been one of the many volcanic islands "spit out" by the volatile Atlantic, then taken back at a later date. Iceland is such an island. One of the most telling parts of the article I posted is that there is a lava sheet that stretches 20 miles thick
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Actually Iceland is a bit more complicated than that, it may lie atop a mantle plume and has in any case been arround for millions of years without showing any sign of dispappearing under the sea. Theoretically it could. But it'd take millions of years of erosion.... Islands like Surtsey are just cinder mounds - not exactly Plato's Atlantis.


quote:
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quotes from the Philadelphia Inquirer:
"Located traces of enormous sheets of ancient lava as much as 20 miles thick that spewed from undersea volcanoes. One such deposit covered almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and Africa's Ivory Coast."

"For instance, an expedition a year ago in the tropical Atlantic turned up evidence, buried in seafloor sediment, of repeated episodes of rapid global warming that led to massive plant and animal extinction in the distant past."


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Not sure where they get this 'massive plant and animal extinction' bit from, but then this is just a newspaper story. But deep sea sediment cores do reveal rapid fluctuations in climate during the last ice age (Dansgaard-Oeschger events http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/abrupt/data_glacial2.html ) As for the lava sheets - well that's what you get if you have a tectonicc convergence zone - ie mid Atlantic ridge.


quote:
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3. Laurasia, this would imply a much older Atlantis, perhaps. I can certainly see that there is a "piece" missing from the continental plates between North America and Europe. Even if we take cotinental drift as a complete fact, the continents have been drifting apart for millions of years, we can only assume we know exactly what the map of the world looked like during all those earth changes.
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The problem is, if you split up Laurasia, N America goes one way, Europe goes the other. If Atlantis were the 'missing piece' it would have to be on a seperate tectonic plate. So where is it now? And the one place it couldn't be is the mid Atlantic ridge - because that's where the N American and European plates are seperating. You can't have a piece of continent on a tectonic convergence zone.


quote:
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4. The water levels being lower during the Ice Age, Atlantis could have been simply a larger version of one of the island chains we still have in the Atlantic now - the Azores, Madeiras, Canaries, etc. Yes, this would mean that Atlantis was smaller than Plato mentioned it being, but if you look at the description - one large central city surrounded by mountains and a large, flat rectangular plain, he does seem to be describing something along the lines of a large island rather than something of continental size.
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There is a remote possibility of this, but the problem, as already mentioned, is that it would still be a barren island.


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5. Atlantis, according to the Oera Linde book, was also presumed to be a sunken area off Holland. I know very little about that, but I have heard that the sea is at it's shallowest in the area where this "other Atlantis" (circa 2193 for it's destruction), was supposed to have occurred.
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Yes, the N Sea was dry land during the last glacial maximum. People may even have been on Dogger Bank when it became an island, and later submerged. But that wasn't the Atlantis of Plato.


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6. Riven has also mapped out a bathymetric map of a area of the Atlantic that could have been Atlantis. I don't know where he got the information, but it takes in an area just east f the west of the Azores that includes both that island chain, Madeiras and the Canaries. Where is the proof that it exists? Well, there were underwater ruins found by the Russians found by the Ampere Seamounts, steps and walls, back in 1978, investigated all the more in subsequent expeditions.
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There's actually no evidence that this story of ruins is true.


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If all this sounds like I'm very much "pro-Atlantis", well, it'e because I am! I'm actually a little disappointed you're not.
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I don't believe in 'Atlantis', but I do believe that Plato may have based his story in part on legends of 'sunken lands' - possibly derived from Phoenician or Carthaginian tales. I certainly believe in the possibility of a 'lost' ice age (low technology) civilisation.


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I suppose you have to go where the textbooks take you, but the simple truth about science is the more we know, the more we find out we don't know. I try to look at all the scientific evidence people present trying to prove it aswell as disprove it. The sad truth of it all is that, no matter how people try and position themselves on experts on the topic, they really don't know. It all comes down to educated guesswork based on the only available data. The picure is far from complete, and we've only seen part of it.
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I agree! However I prefer to take orthodox science as a starting point, rather than ignoring it and making up my own science as I go along - as some people (not you Dhill) seem to do sometimes. If a theory means overturning orthodox scientific views then it needs some pretty conclusive evidence. I'd sooner listen to a thousand experienced geologists than one amateur 

And of course the other question still remains unanswered: how and why did the ancestors of the Atlanteans go to Atlantis in the first place. What drove them there? And when? Huge sea faring empires don't suddenly materialise out of nowhere. Maybe that's the cue for a new thread? Where did the Atlanteans come from?



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Posts: 394 | From: Evesham, Worcs, England | Registered: Oct 2002   

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rockessence

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   posted 07-13-2004 11:01 AM                       
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From PA RA DIS ET.
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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

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dhill757

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   posted 07-13-2004 03:19 PM                       
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Essan,
quote:

"If a theory means overturning orthodox scientific views then it needs some pretty conclusive evidence. I'd sooner listen to a thousand experienced geologists than one amateur."

I suppose I'm a little different than you in that I believe that all scientists are amateurs. For everything that science presume to know, there are a million things that they do not, and nature provides many exceptions. Good to have people like you on the forum, though, because it keeps the people who get too carried away with "pseudo-science" honest, though! You'll notice I didn't mention Hapgood's earth-shifting crust theory. That is one that needs much more investigation.

quote:

"The Azores aren't barren rocks now, but, according to Andrew Collins (Gateway to Atlantis): "when the first Portuguese navigators reached the Azorean islands in 1427, they found them devoid not only of human life but also of any fauna"

I'm surprised to hear you quote Andrew Collins, since no one involved with this quote is a scientist, and, incidentally, the same visit also implied that the Phoenicians had also made their way there two thousand years before (evidenced in other accounts of Carthaginian coins supposedly found there).

The rest of the quote goes on like this:

"With a knowledge of ancient river systems, the O'Briens were able to reconstruct a land profile which revealed an Azorean landmass 'about the size and shape of Spain', with high mountain ranges rising over 3655 metres above sea-level, as well as impressive rivers that run 'in curving valley systems'. Furthermore, they have pointed out that:
In the southeast, a feature which we have called 'The Great Plain' covered an area in excess of 3500 square miles [9065 square kilometres], and was watered by a river comparable in size to the River Thames in England. It has, as we shall see, points in common with a great plain described by Plato in his Critias, as being a feature of the island of Atlantis.

The conclusion drawn from these findings is that the Azores once formed part of a much greater landmass which sank beneath the waves and is now situated 'many thousands of feet' below the current sea-level. To obtain a more substantial insight into this fascinating subject, the O'Briens propose that a scientific team take a series of core samples from the proposed sites of their river channels. They confidently predict that these will show not only evidence of ancient river beds, but also of the freshwater flora and fauna which once thrived on the former Azorean landmass."

I've been looking for the book "the Shining Ones" for some time. Again, it's not clear evidence of Atlantis, there are no cities beneath the ocean, but it certainly proves Atlantis once could have been there once.

quote:

"Actually Iceland is a bit more complicated than that, it may lie atop a mantle plume and has in any case been arround for millions of years without showing any sign of dispappearing under the sea. Theoretically it could. But it'd take millions of years of erosion.... Islands like Surtsey are just cinder mounds - not exactly Plato's Atlantis."

Agreed! I guess my point in bring up Surtsey is that in the volatile Atlantic is that anything is possible. Maybe a better example would have been in the Pacific, with Krakatoa, a bigger landmass, where 38,000 people met their end once it blew it's top back in the 1800's. Again, this could have happened, depending on how big Atlantis was.

quote:

"Not sure where they get this 'massive plant and animal extinction' bit from, but then this is just a newspaper story. But deep sea sediment cores do reveal rapid fluctuations in climate during the last ice age

As for the lava sheets - well that's what you get if you have a tectonicc convergence zone - ie mid Atlantic ridge."

The massive plant and animal extinctions probably refer to events millions of years ago. My point is that there is a lava sheet two miles thick beneath the ocean. What is beneath the lava? Who knows. Like the ice of Antarctica, it isn't telling.

quote:

"The problem is, if you split up Laurasia, N America goes one way, Europe goes the other. If Atlantis were the 'missing piece' it would have to be on a seperate tectonic plate. So where is it now? And the one place it couldn't be is the mid Atlantic ridge - because that's where the N American and European plates are seperating. You can't have a piece of continent on a tectonic convergence zone."

Agreed, it isn't anywhere near the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, but the land may never have gone anywhere at all, could well have also simply been at a lower elevation than the two continents and been sinking all this time, sort of like Holland is sinking.

About the Azores & Atlantic islands being Atlantis:

"There is a remote possibility of this, but the problem, as already mentioned, is that it would still be a barren island."

The barren land theory is really a sticking point for you. Again, the Canaries fit that description, despite what you have said about the Azores, they have always been lush as far as I know. The only opinion I hear to the contrary is the quote from Andrew Collins, who is, again, relying only on a single account.

You mentioned Dogger bank:

"Yes, the N Sea was dry land during the last glacial maximum. People may even have been on Dogger Bank when it became an island, and later submerged. But that wasn't the Atlantis of Plato."

I don't think this is the same Atlantis either, but Oera Linde does have a long tradition of this area once being inhabited and the land it bore at the time was "Atland."

quote:

"Well, there were underwater ruins found by the Russians found by the Ampere Seamounts, steps and walls, back in 1978, investigated all the more in subsequent expeditions.
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"There's actually no evidence that this story of ruins is true."

It was printed in the New York Times in an edition back in 1978. Pictures were in the Charles Berlitz book Atlantis, the Eighth Continent also has pictures, but they are hazy and dark. I don't think they prove anything one way or another because they are so covered in lava. Riven has been looking for the original pictures, we'll see if they ever turn up.

quote:

I don't believe in 'Atlantis', but I do believe that Plato may have based his story in part on legends of 'sunken lands' - possibly derived from Phoenician or Carthaginian tales. I certainly believe in the possibility of a 'lost' ice age (low technology) civilisation."

I do, too, I don't see Atlantis as ever having been a "super-civilization" of the type described by Edgar Cayce. On the other hand, if people were already travelling by boats at 40,000 b.c., it doesn't take much more imagination to think that they could have evolved into the seemingly Bronze Age civilizaion that Plato speaks of.

As for some other civilization inspiring the tale of Atlantis - Carthage, the Sea People, Phoenicians, etc., that assumes that only the Greeks were involved, not the Egyptians, for they kept pretty tidy records. They had dealings with all these people, in fact, they made the Phoenicians sail around Africa, so they would have known who they were.

In short, as long as humans are involved in anything, there is the potential for overlooking key evidence and consigning vital facts to the dust bin. We aren't as learned yet about the world that we live in, let alone the oceanse beneath us. As much as we might think we know, the truth is we just don't know.

Here's a bathymetric map posted in another thread today you might haven't seen yet:
http://ibis.grdl.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/bathy/bathD.pl


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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004   

[Helios]

rockessence

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   posted 07-13-2004 10:26 PM                       
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dhill,Essan,
I just had to chime in here...
quote:
I don't believe in 'Atlantis', but I do believe that Plato may have based his story in part on legends of 'sunken lands' - possibly derived from Phoenician or Carthaginian tales. I certainly believe in the possibility of a 'lost' ice age (low technology) civilisation."


Plato may well have, but it is likely that he is reporting exactly what was told him. It also makes sense to me that because there were many, many islands and coastlands that were swamped forever from rising waters after the end of Ice-time, that many stories were mixed and/or accumulated into common lore.

I must add that the level of technology of the (so-called) "lost" Arctical civilization is something we can muse on and speculate on till the cows come home, but that is all it can be until the Lemminkainen temple complex is opened or until the excavation of the courtyard of the Kajaani castle takes place. According to Ior Bock, the temple has "millions" of rooms cut out of the solid granite containing the treasures of each years best production in each room. The purest gold on the planet is found in Finland and it was shared by all, as was every good thing. Buried in an ancient well in the courtyard of Kajaani castle is a large metal box containing the royal regalia and a golden bock.

These people had the technology to move massive stones anywhere they wanted to put them. They took that to Britain, the middle sea, and the Americas.

They were people of such powerful spirit and connection to natural perfection that we remember them 10,000 years later in thousands of ways. They made a language and a religion that covered the planet before it (they)became changed when the ice-time came and cut off the branches from the center.

The glaciers scraped the land clean and destroyed much, but the culture rebuilt at it's core.

The Popes scraped the land clean, and destroyed almost all, but much was hidden, and remains hidden until we open the repository of the relics of the most ancient people on the planet.



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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

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Andre
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   posted 07-15-2004 08:25 AM                       
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rockessence

quote:
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That area off of Cuba didn't necessasarily sink, but may have been dry during the Ice-time if the sea level of the Atlantic was low enough. The Caribbean island chain forms a mountain chain all the way to So. America. This may have held back the ocean water for a long, long time.
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Nice try, but there is a deep oceanic trough that starts close to the the possible sunken megalithic site, all the way to the Atlantic, this would have precluded any land formations that hold back the water. That feature itself may have more to say about the fate of that site itself. Earth has done strange thing and I concur completely with Brig on this one.



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Posts: 758 | From: Zoetermeer, the Netherlands | Registered: Dec 2001   

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rockessence

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   posted 07-15-2004 09:30 AM                       
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Drat! Foiled again!
Then why the perfect "chain" between Florida and Venezuela? Is it possible the trough is a later development? When did the meteor hit Yucatan?

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-17-2004).]


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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004