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900 or 9000 Years BC?

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Helios
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« Reply #180 on: March 20, 2008, 09:00:40 pm »

atalante
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   posted 07-01-2004 10:37 AM                       
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Helios,
quote:
"...but I have always been of the opinion that one truly has to twist his [Plato's] words in order to make of them something more than what they are. "

I took your statement to mean that all commentators "twist", or spin, Plato, anytime they make a commentary. Perhaps that is why you have developed your skill at citing specific passages from Plato. But somebody has to do the job of being a commentator.

regarding "brass" (which Plato had never seen):
In the era of Solon and Plato, the Greeks had no true brass, because they did not have any zinc. (Brass is an alloy of zinc and copper.) For some strange reason, the Greek language uses the same word to mean both Bronze and Brass.

Perhaps the people who translated Plato's writings may not have been metalurgists.
http://www.initiative-zink.de/309.htm

regarding the islands in the Ocean:
Where did Plato and Solon get this information? Most likely it originated when the Assyrians conquored Tyre, around 700 BC. The Assyrians claimed they inherited Phoenician islands in the Ocean. (I assume it was the Assyrians who exagerrated the size of those islands.)

Perhaps Plato did not say very much about the early era of Atlantis, other than building statues, etc. I merely brought up obsidian because it is something that merchants traded around 5000-3000BC in the western Med.

Do you (or did Plato) have any suggestions about what the People of Atlantis were doing in the era of 5000-3000 BC.




[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-01-2004).]


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Posts: 2432 | From: Tucson AZ USA | Registered: Apr 2003   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #181 on: March 20, 2008, 09:01:02 pm »

Helios

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   posted 07-01-2004 12:25 PM                       
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Atalante,
If I am "reading" you correctly, you seem to imply that, since the Greeks had no actual experience with bronze, it could have therefore been a "mystery metal" to them, and therefore, orichalcum. Actually, the Greeks did have a knowledge of it, they knew brass as ‘oreichalcos', a brilliant and white copper, which, I grant you, sounds a great deal like "orichalcum" but fails to take into account this passage from Critias:

"In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold."

Brass, pleasant as it might be to behold, never took on such a lofty value as gold to my knowledge. Indeed, the Romans used to make helmets out of it. Both brass and orichalcum are mentioned almost equally in the dialogue, leading one to believe they are two distinctly different metals. Orichalcum has vanished from history, brass never has.

Here is another quote from Critias that I believe better proves my point:

"The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum."

In this, both brass and orichalcum are mentioned at the same time, and orichalcum is given a distinct red color. You can say that the color isn't important, that perhaps the translators weren't "metalurgists." On this, again, I'm afraid we must differ. In my opinion, great attention is given to all the metals, as it is to all the other details in Critias.

Where did the Greeks get knowledge of the islands in the Atlantic..? Of course you already know that the knowledge of Atlantis itself came not from the Assyrians, but the Egyptians. By the time that the Phoenicians were sailing the seas, the islands in the Atlantic would have looked as they do now. I doubt that any island they would have found there, be they the Canaries or somehow, even the Azores, could have been mistaken for a landmass "larger than Libya and Asia combined, even through exaggeration." The closest islands, the Canaries, in fact, look nothing like Plato's description of Atlantis. For the most part, they appear to be barren rocks in the middle of the sea. I don't doubt that perhaps they had come connection in the past to Atlantis, what I do doubt is that they could have been mistaken for Atlantis. Madeiras is prettier, but equally as small.

Regarding the commentary, it has been my experience that people seem more interested in "explaining away" Plato as opposed to taking taking Timaeus and Critas more literally.

Some of this seems to be an attempt to ascribe easy answers when perhaps there are none.


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #182 on: March 20, 2008, 09:01:21 pm »

Helios

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   posted 07-01-2004 02:03 PM                       
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In answer to that last part of your question, "what were the people of Atlantis were doing in the era of 5000-3000 BC." I think I might be the wrong person to ask about that. I have my ideas, but since I have no scientific proof to back them up, I think I'll keep them to myself.
For me that is an era that would be post-Atlantis, whilst for you it seems to be more contemporary. Had we the last of what would appear to be three dialogues, probably entitled "Hermocrates," we would more than likely have a more detailed account of the rebirth of the world after the calamity, not to mention a clearer picture of just what era all of it was set in.


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 20
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #183 on: March 20, 2008, 09:01:43 pm »

atalante
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   posted 07-01-2004 02:49 PM                       
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Helios,
Your last post gives me a better understanding of "where you stand" in regard to Atlantis.
You mentioned that 5000BC was probably after-Atlantis.

So that pretty much puts you in the camp of people who accept "9000 Before Solon" as the date of Atlantis.

My concern with that stance is that it eliminates most connections with reality. But I do understand that many people accept the date 9000 BC.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-01-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #184 on: March 20, 2008, 09:02:21 pm »

Riven

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  posted 07-01-2004 02:59 PM                       
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Helios;
www.mts.net/~perasa


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Posts: 4113 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #185 on: March 20, 2008, 09:02:56 pm »

Anteros

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   posted 07-01-2004 08:11 PM                       
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quote:
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My concern with that stance is that it eliminates most connections with reality. But I do understand that many people accept the date 9000 BC.
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What?!?

Reality? Do you mean that because we can't find physical proof to back up Plato's dating that it's unrealistic to keep looking for it? How can you justify this quote? Or did I misunderstand you?

Every time an architects' tools digs up new evidence about lost civilizations our "reality" is re-written. That is the whole point!


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Heavier than air flying machines are impossible.” – Lord Kelvin, President, Royal Society, 1895
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That above quote is what your statement reminded me of, Atalante.

Educate me if I am mistaken.



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Posts: 479 | From: New England | Registered: May 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #186 on: March 20, 2008, 09:03:17 pm »

atalante
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   posted 07-02-2004 12:52 AM                       
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Hello Anteros,
I didn't mean to offend anyone. Perhaps you also want to date Atlantis at 9000 BC. And I don't mind if you do.
But from what we already do know, 9600 BC was pretty much still in the Ice Age. That would make the Straits of Gibralter much colder than the region is today.

How much colder? Its hard to be precise. But I suspect Gibralter, at 9600 BC, would have had a climate similar to modern England.

Plato's subtropical description of Atlantis, does not seem to belong in either a) an Ice Age, or b) a climate similar to modern England.


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #187 on: March 20, 2008, 09:03:37 pm »

docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 07-02-2004 05:16 AM                       
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Atalante, its so nice to hear some comman sense.You have brought such inlightment to this forum.  If it were not for Gerogous ,you and a few others, I still be back around that 9000 year mark to.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #188 on: March 20, 2008, 09:04:03 pm »

Helios

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   posted 07-02-2004 08:49 AM                       
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Atalante,
The dialogues do distinctly mention the date of 9000 years before the time of Solon.

To be perfectly honest, though, I am not certain exactly where I fix the date. That is the once allowance I give myself when I study Plato, mainly because:

(1) I am not certain the exact date was as important to him as it seems to be to you and perhaps the rest of us.

(2) By my logic, at least, The Greeks would have had to have a system in place for measuring time at the time of the destruction of Atlantis. As we know, at the time of 9000 b.c. or the like, they did not.

Let us just say that it was a period of great antiquity, but we cannot be certain exactly what the date is. I suppose that is what attracted me to this topic in the first place. I see the destruction of Atlantis anywhere between the given date of 9650 b.c. or the like to the era of 4000 b.c. I have no scientific basis for this, which is why I was loathe to bring it up. I suppose I still have an open mind about the exact date. Nothing I have heard about Carthage, the Sea Peoples or the Phoenicians has ever managed to convince me that Atlantis is simply a case of "mistaken identity."

Geologically speaking, the far end of that spectrum would be more likely only in that we would still see more evidence of it, and because the Ice Age ended at that time, it was not in full force as you seem to suggest to others. Whether that end was gradual or abrupt, that still seems to be a matter of some debate.

Despite your brief mention of the 5000 b.c. date, I am of the opinion that you still favor the recent time. And you also don't believe that there ever was a large island in the Atlantic. To this I can only say what I have before, that the 2000 b.c. time period is quite well charted in terms of history and that none of the islands present in the Atlantic now could possibly be mistaken, no matter the extent of the exaggeration to "larger than Libya and Asia combined."

You seem to have taken a more minimalist view of Atlantis: the Sea Peoples or perhaps the Phoenicians were the basis for Atlantis, the Canaries or Madeiras were elongated to immense proportions, orichalcum becomes simple brass, and the Atlanteans, rather than having a military were perhaps mere merchants. It's such a stark, down to earth version of the legend I wonder that you are still even interested in the legend at all (!) Just an observation, I hope that I didn't offend you.

Getting back to the Ice Age, since that seems to be your issue of contention today. I think when you bring that up others here seem to be imagining the entire world blanketed in ice and snow. That is not the case. As you no doubt know, but others here might have some questions about, the world has gone through several different cooling and warming phases, usually during the same Ice Age. Some scientists suggest we're still in an Ice Age, are only experiencing a brief warming period.

Here is a chart detailing the scientific evidence concerning the last Ice Age, borrowed from this gentleman's website:
http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nerc130k.html http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nerc.html
150,000 y.a. - cold, dry full glacial world

around 130,000 y.a. - rapid warming initiates the Eemian interglacial (Stage 5e)

130,000-110,000 y.a. - global climates generally warmer and moister than present, but with progressive cooling to temperatures more similar to present.

(except for possible global cold, dry event at 121,000 y.a.)

?110,000 y.a. - a strong cooling marks the end of the Eemian interglacial (Stage 5e).

105,000-95,000 y.a. - climate warms slightly but still cooler and drier than present; strong fluctuations.

95,000 - 93,000 y.a. - another cooler phase similar to that at 110,000 y.a.

93,000 - 75,000 y.a. - a milder phase, resembling that at 105,000-95,000 y.a.

75,000 - 60,000 y.a. - full glacial world, cold and dry (the 'Lower Pleniglacial' or Stage 4)

60,000 - 25,000 y.a. - 'middling phase' of highly unstable but generally cooler and drier-than-present conditions (Stage 3)

25,000 - 15,000 y.a. - full glacial world, cold and dry; Stage 2 (includes the 'Last Glacial Maximum')

(This period includes two 'coldest phases' - Heinrich Events - at around 23,000-21,000 y.a. and at 17,000-14,500 y.a.)

14,500 y.a. - rapid warming and moistening of climates in some areas. Rapid deglaciation begins.

13,500 y.a. - nearly all areas with climates at least as warm and moist as today's

12,800 y.a. (+/- 200 years)- rapid onset of cool, dry Younger Dryas in many areas

11,500 y.a. (+/- 200 years) - Younger Dryas ends suddenly, back to warmth and moist climates (Holocene, or Stage 1)

9,000 y.a. - 8,200 y.a. - climates warmer and often moister than today's

about 8,200 y.a. - sudden cool and dry phase in many areas

8,000-4,500 y.a. - climates somewhat warmer and moister than today's

Since 4,500 y.a. - climates fairly similar to the present

(except; about 2600 y.a. - relatively wet/cold event (of unknown duration) in many areas)

As to how the ice Age affected Atlantis, well, I suppose that would depend on where it was. But if we place Atlantis at the date that Plato suggest, 9650 b.c, and if according to the chart conditions were "warmer and moister than today", it doesn't take much imagination to assume that the warmup would have already started some six hundred years earlier.

Changes in an ice age can not only happen in hundreds of years, but mere decades. Indeed, the current warming trend of the Ice Age had already begun to end at 11,500 b.c. So, your point; about "9600 BC was pretty much still in the Ice Age" and that the Straits of Gibralter "would have a climate much like England's" is, perhaps in error.

Indeed, if at 9000 b.c., conditions were warmer and moister than today, and Atlantis were located anywhere near the equator, they might well have had the two growing seasons suggested by Plato.

Understand, I am not championing the time period suggested by Plato, I'm simply saying that it is still possible and that your reasons for disqualifying it might be a bit premature.

(Interesting debate, by the way, I am enjoying it.)


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #189 on: March 20, 2008, 09:04:29 pm »

atalante
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   posted 07-02-2004 11:23 AM                       
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Helios,
This is likely to be a better source for info about (climate or) sea level variations. http://www.usask.ca/geology/classes/geol206/iceoceans.html
This reference says that sea level has been constant since 4000 BC, at roughly the highest levels ever attained. That corresponds to a warm climatatic period.

Before that, sea level was lower and variable. (Probably corresponding to colder climatic conditions.)

If you think about this reference data, it seems that before 4000 BC, it would be hard for any coastal peoples to establish a long term civilization. They would be wiped occasionally, when sea level shifted.





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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #190 on: March 20, 2008, 09:04:55 pm »

Helios

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   posted 07-02-2004 12:19 PM                       
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Which is, the way that Atlantis was supposed to have disappered, correct..? Vanished beneath the waves..?
Of course the sea levels would have been moreorless constant after 4000 b.c., after the Ice Age well concluded. As for the rising waters wiping out these coastal civilizations, you have to remember that most ancient people built by the sea. People still often do. Not being priviliged to the same scientific data that we are, they wouldn't realize the danger of it either.

I think your point in the previous post was that it was too cold to support a civilization of the type that Plato spoke of. To which I can only add what I have said in my previous post that the Ice Age was hardly a uniform sheet of ice and snow that covered all the whole world at the same time and that the areas that Atlantis was purported to be in had probably been all melted, perhaps even tropical, for at least the last two thousand years before it's destruction.

I suppose you could find more experts to support your theory, and I could find more to support mine, but in my opinion all that would show is that the debate over the Ice Age is a continuing one and that there is no clear consensus on it, or, at the least, isn't as clear as you would suggest it to be.


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #191 on: March 20, 2008, 09:05:18 pm »

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   posted 07-02-2004 12:47 PM                       
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DHill, the maximum would be something similar to the depth of the Cuban city, around 2000 ft.
As the RTPW, disguished as the "last glacial maximum" that Helios described, the whole tropical part of the mid atlantic rose up initially, the strongest at the European side. His happened from 28,000 to about 16,000 years ago. The question is how much isostatic readjustment neutralised that movement. My guess is not totally. Then the movement reversed just about and the area sank back. Again the movent was mitigated by isostatic adjustments.

It's not a coincidence that exactly this area seems to fit very nicely into the ice age - sea level yoyo with sea levels more than 100 meters lower during the Last True Power Wander, incorrectly known as the Last Glacial Maximum. The same happened on the opposite (antipode) site of the World, Indonesia and Australia. Anywhere else the world has little of that sea level changes. On the contrary, there are some definite places with opposite sea level behavior, consisten with the RTPW, like China, Siberia and West Antarctica.

Anyway island groups like the Bermudas and the Canaries may have been substantial bigger due to low sea levels. Beijing was most likely sea at that time.

I'm afraid the Cuban City is desolated, waiting for some more adventurers. This the last I know:
http://www.cuba.cu/ciencia/citma/ama/museo/exmari.htm





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Posts: 758 | From: Zoetermeer, the Netherlands | Registered: Dec 2001   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #192 on: March 20, 2008, 09:05:33 pm »

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   posted 07-02-2004 07:51 PM                       
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Andre,
Quote:
"Anyway island groups like the Bermudas and the Canaries may have been substantial bigger due to low sea levels."
Not only that, but the entire present Gulf of Mexico may have been dry, as the present island ridge may have kept Atlantic water out during the span of the Ice ages.


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« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 09:06:20 pm by Helios » Report Spam   Logged

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #193 on: March 20, 2008, 09:06:44 pm »

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Andre,
What is the reason that most scientists don't place more of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge above sea level before the end of the Ice Age..? It would seem logical since sea levels were lower, or maybe I'm just simplifying things. Do you have any reasonably accurate bathymetric maps of that area to support your theories..?

Great discussion on the Ice Age, I was hoping we would get around to that. Actually, the fact that the Ice Age ended around this time is the main reason I think the 9000 b.c. date gets it's credibility.





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Posts: 544 | From: Madison | Registered: Mar 2004
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #194 on: March 20, 2008, 09:07:16 pm »

Andre
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quote:
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What is the reason that most scientists don't place more of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge above sea level before the end of the Ice Age..? It would seem logical since sea levels were lower, or maybe I'm just simplifying things.
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Well again I have not placed special interest in this area up till now. And I was only speculating. Most of the mid Atlantic ridge is too deep anyway.


quote:
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Great discussion on the Ice Age, I was hoping we would get around to that. Actually, the fact that the Ice Age ended around this time is the main reason I think the 9000 b.c. date gets it's credibility.
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Right. As I stated before, the average end of the ice age is 11,549 years BP when checking all sources, where 9000 years BS (Before Solon) would convert to 11,540 years BP. However, I firmly believe in coincidence.



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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