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Worst theories & books on Atlantis

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Author Topic: Worst theories & books on Atlantis  (Read 2156 times)
Helios
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« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2008, 10:08:21 pm »

 
Helios

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   posted 06-28-2004 07:44 AM                       
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The link proves the danger of trying to read more into things than might be there nicely, Docyabut. If there was evidence of Plato playing these kind of sophisticated word play in his other writings, I would say perhaps. There is none, so I fail to see why he would start so close to the end of his life, which is the time period that frequently when Timaeus and Critias are assigned to.
I disagree that word evidence has limited value, however, simply that one can't base an entire theory on it. Then, too, it could be when Plato's characters say many times that the story is "true", he means it is "true."


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2008, 10:08:44 pm »

Smiley4554

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  posted 06-28-2004 10:45 AM                       
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Come on, now, guys. No one knows whether it existed or it did not. Let's get a grip.
As for all the theories listed, they're all pretty bad. The closest one I agree with is #10, and that's pushing it.

Unless, and until, someone or group comes up with a definitive proof, this debate will continue just as it has for thousands of years.


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2008, 10:09:16 pm »

 
Absonite

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  posted 06-28-2004 11:33 AM                       
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Smiley girl,
quote "Come on, now, guys. No one knows whether it existed or it did not. Let's get a grip."
All you can really say is I don't know.
or you can say some people don't know.
You cannot say "No One Knows"
there is a lot that you don't know about what other people do know.
You need to get a grip with your outrageous generalized statements.


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2008, 10:09:34 pm »

 
docyabut
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Thats what I am saying Helios. Scholars can`t even analyis writings in strange languages from a few hundred years ago, Let alone the whole works of Plato and Solon in Latin and half missing. Although I think Gerogous is doing a pretty good job of it.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2008, 10:10:02 pm »

Ideopraxist
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  posted 06-28-2004 03:20 PM                       
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Jiri, yes I see what you see but I'd like to see it uncolored also for my own insight.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2008, 10:10:36 pm »

 
Erick Wright

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   posted 06-28-2004 06:46 PM                       
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Helios,
Who said that Plato even knew about it? It is entirely possible that he just wrote down the story as it was told to him and didn't have a clue as to how they related to homographs in the Egyptian language.


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Then, too, it could be when Plato's characters say many times that the story is "true", he means it is "true."
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As far as I know, there is only two references to the story being true, and that is in Timaeus 20d-e, where Plato (through the voice and character of the Younger Critias) states that Solon said that the story was true, and in Timaeus 26e where Socrates, who has just been told that Solon said that the story was true, refers to the story as "no invented fable, but genuine history...". Other than those two references, I know of no other point in the entire narrative in which Plato has his characters attesting to the truth of the story. And since Socrates is only repeating what he has just been told (like a parrot - Polly want a cracker?) then, in reality, it has only been stated once. In addition, both times it is mentioned (i.e., Critias stating that Solon said it was true and Socrates repeating it like a parrot) it is in the Timaeus; not once does the Younger Critias mention anything about it being a true story in the entire narrative of the Critias.

Not a real big ringing endorsement of its historical truth!

Warm Regards,

Erick


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2008, 10:11:16 pm »

 
Helios

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   posted 06-29-2004 08:19 AM                       
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I find it hard to believe that so learned a man as Plato would not have recognized the use of such homographs. If they appear in the dialogues at all, he must have been the one to have invented them.
Actually, Erick, there are several references in both dialogues to the story being true.

From Critias:

Timaeus: "And I pray the being who always was of old, and has now been by me revealed, to grant that my words may endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him; but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right..."

About ancient Athens:

"Concerning the country the Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true..."

About the Atlantean engineering works:

"The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless I must say what I was told."

From Timaeus:

Critias: "Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages..."

Concerning the war between Athens & Atlantis:

Socrates: "And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?"

Again concerning the war:

Socrates (later in the dialogue): "And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction?"

Parrot-speak aside, Plato makes a point to say that the story is true. It is only those that wish to claim it as an allegory of some type that wish to insist it's a fiction.


[This message has been edited by Helios (edited 06-29-2004).]


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   
 
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2008, 10:12:09 pm »

Jiri Mruzek
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Nice work, Helios!
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2008, 10:12:31 pm »

Brig

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  posted 06-29-2004 06:01 PM                       
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I still think the absolutely worst theory on Atlantis has got to be Eric Wrights, hands down, unquestionably without merit.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2008, 10:13:40 pm »

dhill757

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   posted 06-29-2004 09:50 PM                       
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You already know what I think about it, at least it's under the right topic...
[This message has been edited by dhill757 (edited 06-29-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2008, 10:14:06 pm »

Helios

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   posted 06-30-2004 08:52 AM                       
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Thank you, Jiri, might I add, your research into Atlantis has been interesting as well.
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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2008, 10:14:34 pm »

rockessence

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   posted 06-30-2004 10:25 AM                       
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Don't forget that Solon and the Egyptian priests were telling a story that by that time had already lapsed into myth or at least extremely ancient history, perhaps not being carried forward by the real true tellers of history/saga for thousands of years. At the point that it was written down, even on the stela in Egypt, it could have already been vastly different from the original facts.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2008, 10:15:06 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 06-30-2004 06:41 PM                       
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Helios & Jiri,
O.K., first, why don't you two just kiss and get it over with. It's a veritable 'love-fest' with you two.  Wink

Second, and on a serious note, let's take a closer, harder look at your quotes, dear Helios, and examine them in the manner in which they were meant to be read - that is to say, in context and with the aid of logic.


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Actually, Erick, there are several references in both dialogues to the story being true.
From Critias:

Timaeus: "And I pray the being who always was of old, and has now been by me revealed, to grant that my words may endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him; but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right..."


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Actually, Helios, this comment of Timaeus' was made (in Critias 106a) in reference to the God who represents the Universe (cf. Tim. 92c, 27c), and has absolutely nothing to do with the Atlantis story.


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About ancient Athens:
"Concerning the country the Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true..."


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Uh, I'm not really sure where you got this, but it found nowhere in my LCL copy of the text. What my version, translated by R.G. Bury, says is "How, then, is this statement plausible, and what residue of the land then existing serves to confirm its truth?" This passage is found in Critias 111a, where Critias erroneously used the condition of the Peloppenesian Peninsula during his day (i.e., "...like the skeleton of a sick man, all the fat and soft earth having wasted away, and only the bare framework of the land being left.") as "evidence," or "strong proof," of its former goodness of soil." He then attempted to equate the condition of the whole Peloppenesian Peninsula with that of small islands bare of soil. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that you don't see the flaw in that logic? Are you honestly going to try and say that the absence of good soil during Plato's day can be considered valid "evidence," or "strong proof" (as Critias says), that good soil used to exist???


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About the Atlantean engineering works:
"The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless I must say what I was told."


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In other words, even Critias (or Plato?)wasn't buying Solon's description of Atlantis, but decided, nevertheless, to pass on what he overheard his grandfather (the Elder Critias) telling Amynandes! Here, in Critias' own words, Plato has Critias himself - the narrator of the story - casting doubt on the voracity of the description of Atlantis!


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From Timaeus:
Critias: "Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages..."


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Oh, o.k., so Critias, who (when he was about ten years old) overheard his grandfather tell Amynandes the story one time, told Socrates (who had never heard the story at all) that Solon (whom he had never met, had been dead for 200 years at that point in time, and was therefore unable to either refute or confirm the "truthfulness" of the story) had attested to the truth of the story. I think what Critias meant to say was that the Elder Critias, whom (mind you) had not heard the story from Solon himself, but rather from Dropides, said that Dropides said that Solon attested to the truth of the story. Critias (the Elder) said, that Critias (the Younger) said, that Dropides said, that Solon said, that the old Egyptian priest said... There's so much "hearsay" going on in this narrative that it reminds me of how, back in the 1950's, bored housewives used to stand on opposite sides of a fenceline and gossip about their neighbors. Its ridiculous!


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Concerning the war between Athens & Atlantis:
Socrates: "And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?"


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Just to save time, refer to my previous comment.


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Again concerning the war:
Socrates (later in the dialogue): "And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction?"


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Squawk! Polly want a cracker?


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Parrot-speak aside, Plato makes a point to say that the story is true.
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Really? Where? Plato never once said it himself. Instead, he created a dialogue between 4 people and has one of those 4 people saying its true. I believe this is what's called "plausible deniability."

Is that all you can come up with, Helios? Noncontextual references, erroneous comparisons, false logic, hearsay, and the narrator's own statement of incredulity?

Warm Regards,

Erick


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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2008, 10:15:38 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 06-30-2004 07:05 PM                       
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Brig & dhill757,

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I still think the absolutely worst theory on Atlantis has got to be Eric Wrights, hands down, unquestionably without merit.
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Without merit, eh? I'll just consider the source, Brig, seeing as how you haven't been able to offer up a single intelligible argument to show why it is supposedly "without merit."


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You already know what I think about it, at least it's under the right topic...
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Good point, dhill757, it really does deserve its own thread! So kind of you to suggest it.

To both of you,

Instead of basing your position that Atlantis is real upon the desire for it to be such, why don't you try basing it on evidence?

BTW, the insults would really hurt...if I cared, that is. Remember, thick skin?

Warm Regards,

Erick


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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2008, 10:16:05 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 06-30-2004 07:10 PM                       
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Brig & dhill757,
The fact that the results of my research (I haven't formed a theory, but merely reported on the results of my research) bothers you soooooo much tells me that it must be right! (chuckle)  Wink


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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