Worst theories & books on Atlantis

[Helios]

Essan

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   posted 06-25-2004 05:55 AM                       
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Worst Atlantis book/theory? Arguably all of them!!!! Well, most anyway....
Actually, what I mean is that most books/theories are based on the assumption that Atlantis was a real place located in one specific location (be that Therea, mid-Atlantic ridge, Cuba, Sundaland, Mars, whatever). And therefore they take the possibly arrogant view that all the other books/theories, placing Atalntis somewhere else, must be totally wrong.

But I don't think there was a specific place called 'Atlantis'. Rather, Plato's story was based on a number of real places and events - which may well have included the invasions of the sea people, Carthaginian stories of a land beyond the 'Atlantic' Ocean, and older stories originating from the worldwide floods that occurred at the end of the ice age.

The quest for Atlantis is thus a quest to sort out which piece of the story came from where, and which relate to known historical events, and which to earlier events still ignored by conventional archaeology 

IMHO


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Posts: 394 | From: Evesham, Worcs, England | Registered: Oct 2002   

[Helios]

 
Tom Hebert
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  posted 06-25-2004 06:17 AM                       
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I agree with you Essan. Plato's Atlantis is most likely a mixture of history and geology from two different time periods. That's why nobody will ever be able to find it if they take Plato literally. I am more interested in the geological aspect of the story, so I voted for Number 1.
Tom



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Posts: 813 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2002 
 

[Helios]

docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 06-25-2004 08:48 AM                       
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Atlante, didn`t most of us that do put atlantis around the 900 years before solon, agreed, there is a connection with the sea people of egypt? So Erick`s theory of the sea people is really nothing new.
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Posts: 7938 | From: toledo .ohio | Registered: Mar 2000   

[Helios]

 
docyabut
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Rate Member   posted 06-25-2004 09:15 AM                       
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I still think Georgous`s translations, are the best in the finding of atlantis. 
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Posts: 7938 | From: toledo .ohio | Registered: Mar 2000   
 

[Helios]

Psycho

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  posted 06-25-2004 10:04 AM                       
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I don't put Atlantis 900 years before Solon. There's someone else here who also doesn't do it. Plato!
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Posts: 1269 | Registered: Jun 2004   

[Helios]

Psycho

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  posted 06-25-2004 10:08 AM                       
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Riven, Erick has no reply for Atlantis, how can he have one for Araklum..?
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Posts: 1269 | Registered: Jun 2004   

[Helios]

Psycho

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  posted 06-25-2004 10:16 AM                       
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Cydonia,
Was hoping someone here would bring up the Marvel Comics Atlantis. Lady Dorma. Attuma. Krang. Lord Neptune (someone should have told Submariner's creator, Bill Everett, that Atlantis is out of Greek mythology, not the Romans).

As I remember it, the Submariner would get angry and invade the surface world a lot from his undersea kingdom of Atlantis...my kind of leader! I'd to the same if I called the shots down there!


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Posts: 1269 | Registered: Jun 2004 

[Helios]

 
Psycho

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  posted 06-25-2004 10:21 AM                       
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I'd like to amend my list to also mention the awful Disney cartoons on Atlantis. Anybody see those..? Sure they were for kids, but they were terrible, the horror of it all...
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Posts: 1269 | Registered: Jun 2004   
 

[Helios]

 
Psycho

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  posted 06-25-2004 10:33 AM                       
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Now that I think about, "Escape from Atlantis" staring Jeff Speakman was a pretty wretched movie, too. All the Atlantean natives seemed to be either dwarves or pirates.
In fact, there's been lots more bad media done on Atlantis than good. Maybe, once someone finds the real Atlantis, they can get it all together, have a mass burning of it like they did to get rid of disco.


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Posts: 1269 | Registered: Jun 2004   
 

[Helios]

atalante
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   posted 06-25-2004 10:46 AM                       
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Docyabut,
I agree. Most people who favor "900" years before Solon probably assume the Sea Peoples were involved in the war with Atlantis.
But here is something ABOUT 9000 which the "old timers" may not understand.

The ancient Greeks had a name which ORIGINALLY meant "a number that is too large to count". That name is miliard.

But later, the word milliard became associated with the number 10,000.

So 9000 was once the largest number for the Greeks. Solon could have used this 9000 number poetically/metaphoricly to mean simply "the biggest number" of years in the past.




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Posts: 2423 | From: Tucson AZ USA | Registered: Apr 2003   

[Helios]

rockessence

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   posted 06-25-2004 11:14 AM                       
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Absonite,
Regarding:
"He dressed much as did the Canaanite priests except that on his breast he wore an emblem of three concentric circles, the Satania symbol of the Paradise Trinity. In the course of his ministry this insignia of three concentric circles became regarded as so sacred by his followers that they never dared to use it, and it was soon forgotten with the passing of a few generations."
In Dr. Felice Vinci's HOMER IN THE BALTIC he solves an old puzzle regarding the design of Achilles' shield. Turns out it is the "three concentric circles, the Paradise Trinity" with gold in the center, layered over silver, then I forget what.



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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   

[Helios]

rajesh

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   posted 06-25-2004 12:58 PM                       
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Respected Riven:
BTW in my opinion Araklum may have some similar meaning with Hercules:

Hercules << HarKulEs << Har Kul Esh

Har = God El or Shiva, Kul = Family, Esh = God

So Hercules = One who has El as Family God

Araklum << AraKulam << (H)AraKulam << Har Kulam

Har = God El

Kulam = Family

So, Araklum = Family of God El

Well, may be OR may not be...

With Regards...


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Posts: 1363 | Registered: Jul 2002   

[Helios]

Jiri Mruzek
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Rate Member   posted 06-25-2004 07:13 PM                       
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"I WOULD like to say that, even though, as you claim, there is no evidence of the Atlanteans having flying machines/guns, there ARE Indian records of such things, so, i wouldn't rule it out; 'out there' or not."
Bluducky,
See what googgles up when you type in Atlantean gunman'. Surprise, Number 1 is an article of mine "World's Oldest Image of a Firearm" http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/firearm.htm
It's just a curiosity. There is also another scene I found, somewhat like the one at Abydos. Unfortunately, it is hard to see, at first. If anybody wants to try, check: http://www.geocities.com/jirimruzek/debate.htm
It's the first picture from the top.



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Posts: 46 | From: Vancouver, BC | Registered: Jun 2004   

[Helios]

 
Erick Wright

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   posted 06-25-2004 09:26 PM                       
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I am very saddened to see that those individuals, who were so supportive just a week ago, are now the ones calling me an ‘Oxford monkey’ and insinuating that I have somehow ‘sold-out.’ Did an academic scholar, at some point in your life, belittle or embarrass you Riven? Is that why you are so hateful towards the educational establishments? I do wear a pair of Oxford shoes, Riven, but they are moc-toe, oxford-style, work boots, otherwise known as Indy boots.
Since you’ve asked me (and in such a nice way, I might add) what my research has indicated that Atlantis matches to, here is a lengthier, in-depth, examination of the word.

Atlas is a word formed from the root tlâs, the verbal participle form (i.e. ending in ‘ed’ or ‘ing’) of tlâo with the ‘a’ added at the beginning to make it euphonic (i.e. pleasant sounding). The definition of tlâo is:


quote:
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tlâo – I. to suffer, to undergo hardship or disgrace (never like phêro, of bodily loads or burdens) 1. to hold out, to endure, to be patient, to submit
Source: Liddell & Scott (9th edition) Complete Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1996) – which includes a revised supplement


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Due to the fact that ‘to endure’ seems to be the most commonly used meaning of ‘tlâo’ it is therefore the meaning that I used in my translations. With the meaning taken into the verbal participle form, ‘tlâs’, its final form becomes ‘enduring’. Upon reverse-translating the word ‘enduring’ into the Egyptian hieroglyphic language I found that its equivalent was ‘tchet.’ Due to the fact that the letter ‘t,’ at the end, has a hard pronunciation, it takes upon itself the sound of a ‘d,’ which causes the word to be spelled ‘tched’. Furthermore, the ‘tch’ at the beginning of the word has sometimes been replaced in modern times with ‘dj’, as the two sounds are very similar; this means that the final form of the word can be rendered as either ‘tched’ or ‘djed’. Many of you (I’m sure) are very familiar with the word ‘djed,’ with how it was the name of the sacred pillar or tree trunk worshipped in certain parts of the Delta in predynastic times, and with how it was subsequently symbolically identified with the backbone of Osiris. This is not, however, the only meaning of ‘tched’; it also meant (to be) stable, permanent, abiding, firmly established, lasting, enduring, the Divine Word (speech deified), something spoken, said, declared, told, narrated, to read a report, to tell news, brilliance, radiance, light, to shine, and pillar(s). Due to the fact that ‘enduring’ is the homograph (i.e. word spelled the same as another but with a different meaning and origin) for another meaning of ‘tched’, then that means that the original meaning of Atlas had to be one of the other meanings of ‘tched’; ‘to read a report’ seemed to be the most likely candidate considering that the first few names reverse translated as:


quote:
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Evenor = ‘glorious’ = ‘âakhu’ = ‘glorious deeds’
Leucippe = ‘white horse’ = ‘hetch ses’ or ‘hetch-t ses’ = ‘chapel (of) Ramesses III’
Cleito = ‘celebrated’ = ‘ha-t’ or ‘ha’ = ‘wall’ or ‘back hall’ or ‘outside’
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…although I should add that ‘pillar’ could not be ruled out as another potential candidate. So, ‘tched’ (i.e. ‘to read a report’ and/or ‘pillar’) was the original word/phrase for which the homograph ‘tched’ (i.e. ‘enduring’) was used by Solon; ‘tched’ (enduring) was then brought into the Greek language as Atlas (‘tlâs’ the verbal participle form of ‘tlâo’). Atlas was, of course, the Titan whose punishment it was to hold up the heavens for eternity, and the Atlas Mts. (in N.W. Africa) were known as the ‘Pillars of Heaven’, therefore the associations of Atlas the Titan, the Atlas mountains in N. W. Africa, and Atlas as a pillar (of the entablature) were already firmly established in the Greek mind (cf. Atlantes, in Greek Architecture, were colossal statues that supported the entablature). An association with N.W. Africa and the west, in general, would have been immediate, as well as, with the Pillars of Herakles, I imagine, due to the fact that the Pillars of Herakles are found in close proximity to the Atlas mountains. This also brings into play another Egyptian word/phrase (‘semi-t’ = foreign countries, lands) whose homograph (‘semi-t’ = hill country) transferred into Greek as Gadeirus – Atlas’ twin brother. So, at this point we now have Atlas, whose name draws immediate association with the Atlas Mountains (in N.W. Africa), the Garden of the Hesperides (in the West), the West (in general), Pillars of Herakles, and with Gadeira (from which Gadeirus was said to be derived and of whom Atlas was a twin).

You can then add to all of this the words Atlantic and Atlantis, both of which are born of the word Atlas. ‘Atlantic’ (i.e. ‘Atlantikôs’) quite simply means to be ‘of Atlas’; examples of this word’s association with the Straits of Gibraltar and the Pillars of Herakles abound (e.g. “termones Atlantikos” (i.e. “the terminus of the Atlantic”) as ‘the Pillars of Herakles’ in Euripides’ Hippolytus 3, 1053). Atlantis, Atlantide (i.e. Atlantidos), and Atlantean (i.e. Atlanteios(on)), are merely Patronymic forms (i.e. derived from the name of a father or ancestor) of Atlas, and they also quite simply mean to be “of Atlas.” The names Atlantis and Atlantic are therefore nothing more than word-plays on the name of Atlas. Oh, that’s right, did I forget to mention that Atlas was also the Pythagorean name for ten (cf. Theologumena Arithmeticae 59)? Gee, now where was that number used in the Atlantis story? Oh, that’s right, there was ten kings of Atlantis.

So, when all of this is taken together and considered as a whole, it is then extremely clear as to why Solon (or Plato) would have chosen to place his fictional island of Atlantis in the far West, in the Atlantic Ocean, beyond the Pillars of Hercules, but in close proximity to a district called Gadeira, as well as, to have ten brothers/kings. Now, I will ask you again, “Where else could he have placed it?”

I would suggest that you spend a little more time investigating the Greeks and learning about their language and culture, Riven, and a lot less time harassing and haranguing every person who happens to disagree with your evaluation of the ‘mystery’ of Atlantis. You have attempted to make it seem as if I was ‘all over the place’ with my theories, or that I am somehow ‘flighty’ and change my mind a lot when, in fact, the core of my theory has not changed since the day I arrived in this forum. I have always maintained that I believed that the Atlantis story was, in reality, the story of the Invasions of the Libyans and Sea Peoples of ca. 1200 BC. I just wasn’t able to prove it until now. The only thing that has changed over time has been the location in which I placed it. When I changed my mind about the city’s placement from Morocco to southern Turkey (or the northern Levant), it was because I realized that I would never be able to find evidence to support a theory of Sea Peoples as far west as Morocco. Changing its location to the eastern Mediterranean caused it to fit in with the Sea Peoples theory and matched all of the available evidence surrounding them. Changing my mind to now stating that there never was a city of Atlantis has been brought about by all of the etymological evidence compiled in my research that indicates that key points of the Sea Peoples story were clearly used to create the main characters and place-names in the Atlantis story. In other words, since Atlas is nothing more than a Greek word representing the word ‘enduring’ which, in turn, was derived from the Egyptian word ‘tched’ (enduring) which, itself, is nothing but a homograph for the word ‘tched’ (‘to read a report’ and/or ‘pillar’), then it is highly likely that there never was any city named Atlantis (since Atlantis is nothing but a Patronymic form of Atlas, which means ‘of Atlas’). I have not completely ruled out the possibility of the existence of a city that the descriptions of Atlantis might have been based upon, but I do find it highly implausible that Plato’s 11,500 year old Atlantis ever existed. Additionally, the Sea Peoples were a loose confederation of tribes, many from the Assuwa (Arzawa?) League, and there is no indication that they had a centralized government or military; and because Atlantis can now be proven to have been created from the details surrounding the Sea Peoples invasions, their lack of military and governmental centrality must be taken into consideration, as well.

Lastly, Riven, I have no earthly idea what you are talking about in regards to your question about Araklum!?!

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Docyabut, thank you for the wishes of “good luck,” that are offered even though you disagree with my findings. As for the ringed city, and Solon’s (or Plato’s) source of inspiration for it, at the Mortuary Chapel of Ramesses III, at Medinet Habu, it is recorded that somewhere around the 11th year of his reign, and probably either simultaneous with, or after, the 2nd Libyan invasion, Ramesses III conducted a campaign in northern Syria. Scholars believe that Ramesses III borrowed these relief scenes from Ramesses II’s Ramesseum, however, it is, nevertheless, a possibility that Ramesses III did lead some sort of campaign in Syria, either as retribution, or to regain control over his territories. Any way, the reliefs show him attacking 5 strong cities. One of them is called ”the city of Amor”, two others are defended by Hittites, a fourth is surrounded by water and is believed to have been Kadesh, and the fifth stands on high ground but offers no identifying characteristics. The scene accompanying the inscriptions which list the Syrian city as “the city of Amor” shows a fortress rising in 4 successive battlements to a lofty tower or citadel in the middle; the walls are manned by bearded Semites, and a triangular banner waves in the wind above the citadel. Another scene shows the Egyptians attacking a fortified city surrounded by water, possibly a moat. Yet another scene shows the Egyptians attacking a walled city that stands upon a hill. The short inscription accompanying it refers to the enemy simply as “Asiatics.” The last scene shows the Egyptians attacking two fortresses, both of which are defended by Hittites, and one of which is named “Ereth.” I believe that it is very possible that these might have been Solon’s inspiration for his description of Atlantis, quite possibly by blending their individual characteristics into one.

Furthermore, Docyabut, I have never, at any time, ever stated that the Sea Peoples Theory is either new, or mine own. The ability to prove that the Atlantis story is, in fact, the Sea Peoples story, however, is new and is mine own.

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Atalante, my primary goal has never been to have one of my Atlantis papers published. The publication of my article in an academic peer-review article is necessary in order for my theory to receive the ‘acid test,’ as dhill757 has so eloquently and succinctly put it, the survival of which may very well lead to widespread academic acceptance of my work. My goal, from day one, has always been to find the conclusive solution to the Atlantis mystery, and it didn’t matter to me whether I proved its existence or refuted its existence, just so long as I solved the mystery conclusively. I believe that I can now show the evidence that I have done so. You are all, of course, invited to try and find a ‘hole’ in my research, but good luck with that endeavor!

Plato had a pretty good run of it; 2,350 years of keeping a mystery alive is a pretty impressive record, but now its time has ended.

Warm Regards,

Erick

© Copyright Erick W. Wright 2004

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"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."


[This message has been edited by Erick Wright (edited 06-27-2004).]


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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   
 

[Helios]

Ideopraxist
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  posted 06-25-2004 09:36 PM                       
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Hi, Jiri, I looked, cool website, I'd like to get one also. got myself alot of pop's looking at webhost stuff, BOO! keep looking.
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Posts: 220 | Registered: Mar 2004