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Worst theories & books on Atlantis


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Author Topic: Worst theories & books on Atlantis  (Read 1335 times)
Helios
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« Reply #135 on: March 13, 2008, 10:55:51 pm »

Chronos

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   posted 07-12-2004 11:14 AM                       
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Erick, there also seems to be some confusion on your part as to the wherabouts of Professor Christopher Gill. Mr. Gill hails from the University of Exeter, if memory serves, and here is a link dealing with his publications:
http://www.frontlist.com/booklist/34821
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Posts: 1008 | From: various | Registered: Jul 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #136 on: March 13, 2008, 10:56:14 pm »

Andre
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   posted 07-12-2004 01:24 PM                       
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The trouble with most folks isn't so much their ignorance. It's know'n so many things that ain't so.
Josh Billings.



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #137 on: March 13, 2008, 10:56:55 pm »

atalante
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   posted 07-12-2004 03:15 PM                       
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Here is a link that lists 4 articles dealing with Atlantis, which Christopher Gil has published in various journals. http://www.ex.ac.uk/classics/staff/c_gill_pubs.htm
quote:
`The Origin of the Atlantis Myth', Trivium 11 (l976), 1-11.

`The Genre of the Atlantis Story', Classical Philology 72 (l977), 287-304.

`Plato and Politics: the Critias and the Politicus', Phronesis 24 (l979), l48-67.

`Plato's Atlantis Story and the Birth of Fiction', Philosophy and Literature 3 (l979), 64-78.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-12-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #138 on: March 13, 2008, 10:57:32 pm »

 
Chronos

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   posted 07-13-2004 07:20 AM                       
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There you are, Erick, a chance to become better acquainted with Mr. Gill's material. Seize it. Thank you Atalante.
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #139 on: March 13, 2008, 10:58:07 pm »

Jonas Bergman
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Erick's research sounds very interesting to me, and I don't think anyone should give
their opinions until they have read the whole HJCP article. You can't say:"
Sloppy reasearch!" when you haven't seen it as a whole.
Quote Chronos: Simply the fact that the Sea Peoples have no legend of a cicular city does not in itself prove that there was no Atlantis.

The fact that we don't ( yet ) know about any concentric city connected to the Sea Peoples doesn't mean that there never was such a city connected to them.

Quote Chronos: There is no indication in the dialogues that Atlantis ever invaded what we call today as "the Middle East", let alone Turkey, in fact, the Atlantean territorial boundaries are clearly designated in Plato as up to Egypt and Tyrhennia.

Actually there is.

Quote from Timaeus translated by Benjamin Jowett:
For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against
the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end.

Asia included both Turkey and the Middle-East. The Sea Peoples invaded parts of
Europe and Asia allied with the Libyans, as did the Atlanteans.

Quote Chronos: Erick, I read that, according to Helios, you perhaps need a better understanding of Plato's works.

The important thing is that Erick doesn't need a better understanding of Plato's work to prove his research.

Quote from Critias translated by Benjamin Jowett: "The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless I must say what I was told."

Erick: In other words, even Critias (or Plato?) wasn't buying Solon's description of Atlantis, but decided, nevertheless, to pass on what he overheard his grandfather (the Elder Critias) telling Amynandes! Here, in Critias' own words, Plato has Critias himself - the narrator of the story - casting doubt on the voracity of the description of Atlantis!"

I totally agree here. Plato(or Critias) thought the measurements was incredible, almost unbelievable, but decided to pass on the story, very much like Diodorus and Herodotus decided to pass on legends and myths to preserve them, even though they didn't believe in everything they heard. Some people, in the time of Diodorus, stated that the earth was round. He decided to include this statement in one of his books, even though he thought it was unbelievable and almost ridiculous.
I think it is obvious ( when you have read the first part of Critias ) that Plato( or Critias ) was passing on an old story, as he remembered it.

Interesting part of Critias translated by Benjamin Jowett:

" I can only attempt to show that I ought to have more indulgence than you, because my theme is more difficult; and I shall argue that to seem to speak well of the gods to men is far easier than to speak well of men to men: for the inexperience and utter ignorance of his hearers about any subject is a great assistance to him who has to speak of it, and we know how ignorant we are concerning the gods. But I should like to make my meaning clearer, if Timaeus, you will follow me.

All that is said by any of us can only be imitation and representation. For if we consider the likenesses which painters make of bodies divine and heavenly, and the different degrees of gratification with which the eye of the spectator receives them, we shall see that we are satisfied with the artist who is able in any degree to imitate the earth and its mountains, and the rivers, and the woods, and the universe, and the things that are and move therein, and further, that knowing nothing precise about such matters, we do not examine or analyze the painting; all that is required is a sort of indistinct and deceptive mode of shadowing them forth. But when a person endeavours to paint the human form we are quick at finding out defects, and our familiar knowledge makes us severe judges of any one who does not render every point of similarity. And we may observe the same thing to happen in discourse; we are satisfied with a picture of divine and heavenly things which has very little likeness to them; but we are more precise in our criticism of mortal and human things. Wherefore if at the moment of speaking I cannot suitably express my meaning, you must excuse me, considering that to form approved likenesses of human things is the reverse of easy. This is what I want to suggest to you, and at the same time to beg, Socrates, that I may have not less, but more indulgence conceded to me in what I am about to say. Which favour, if I am right in asking, I hope that you will be ready to grant. "

Examples of defects in the story is:
1. "A Bronze Age nation 9000 years ago".
2. "A sunken island as large as Libya and Asia combined"

Critias explains that Timaeus task was easier because it was cosmological in nature, while Critias "Tale of Atlantis" was a difficult one. Plato warned his readers. ("All that is said by any of us can only be imitation and representation")

Was he saying that we shouldn't take the story literally? ( because he didn't remember it correctly or because much of it, was, or may have been invented/changed over time? )
Did he want us to look at it as a painting of reality?
Did he meant to say: "Im just passing on an ancient tradition, don't take everything literally."?

One thing is certain: Plato(or Critias) knew that the story was incredible ( almost unbelievable ).

Plato: "all that is required is a sort of indistinct and deceptive mode of shadowing them forth"

indistinct: not clear
deceptive: making you believe something that is not true:

Warm Regards,

Jonas Bergman

[This message has been edited by Jonas Bergman (edited 07-20-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #140 on: March 13, 2008, 10:58:31 pm »

rockessence

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   posted 07-20-2004 07:39 PM                       
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Jonas,
How calm you sound!!

I wanted to insert this....

RE: 2. "A sunken island as large as Libya and Asia combined"

I believe strongly that, as proposed by Felice Vinci in HOMER IN THE BALTIC, "as large as" refers to length of coast-line, NOT area, as is commonly assumed. These estimates of size were given by sea-going peoples, who would naturally observe coast-line rather than inland. This may give scholars a new view of the possibilities.


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #141 on: March 13, 2008, 10:58:58 pm »

Dreamweaver
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"4. Atlantis in Indonesia (oh, come on!)"
This was my initial impression when I first stumbled upon that theory, but I now I find it to be one of the most believable. So far this claim, which I first came across at http://www.atlan.org, actually boasts the most shall I say "evidence" (since no theory has obviously been proven), than any other theory, IMHO. Even the obvious questions of "why isn't it in the Atlantic?" or "why isn't it just outside the Pillars of Hercules?" is directly answered without contradicting Platos story. Im not saying I'm 100% convinced Atlantis was here (although at the very least I'm pretty sure it was home to A civilization during the same time) Im just saying that I think it's been substantiated by the strongest scientific research and historical facts thus far.

Of course, that doesnt mean Im closed off to others theories that place Atlantis in the present-day Atlantic Ocean or South America. However, Im not so inclined to believe Atlantis was anywhere in the Mediterranean, and I find Antarctica to be one of the least plausible theories of all. I enjoy reading and taking into consideration all arguments for Atlantis though.  Smiley


[This message has been edited by Dreamweaver (edited 07-20-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #142 on: March 13, 2008, 10:59:52 pm »

 
dhill757

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   posted 07-20-2004 10:19 PM                       
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Gee, Jonas, I am really disappointed in you. So now you bought into the "Plato made it all up theory" too? Fine, but I think it's pretty apparent here that a lot of Erick's evidence, eptimology, homographs and judgments are is in the eye of the beholder. Common sense should tell you that, even if Plato did make the whole thing up, he wouldn't need to insert a lot of needless metaphors in order to "wink" at the reader.
As for your other point, not enough is known about the Sea People to build a case for Atlantis. There probably never will be either, as most of the records pre-1200 b.c. have been destroyed according to the material I've studied. A loose conglomeration of cities that sometimes unite to make war on Egypt and the Hittites? Atlantis was supposed to be a large empire, in the ATLANTIC, not a loose alliance of city-states. They actually fit just as well, if not better, as a renegade people, post-Atlantis than the sole basis for Atlantis itself.

I noticed you didn't mention the time element, 1200 b.c. as opposed to 9000 b.c. in you impasssioned defense, nor the fact that the Sea People originated from Turkey while Plato clearly places Atlantis "beyond the Pillars of Hercules," in the Atlantic Ocean.

Where is the continent, larger than Libya and Asia combined..?

I know, next you'll say that it was not "bigger than" but "in the middle of."

What about the large, flat rectangular plain?
How about the elephants, do they get a lot of elephants in Turkey?

Two growing seasons??

Any canals there one hundred foot deep, five and a half miles long?

So long as we're quoting Plato, let's look at the whole account, shall we, not just the parts that suit our purposes.

Let me help you out with some of the answers to some of these, as, of course we know the same ones from the Santorini argument. Of course, we all know the answer to the time element factor, too, Solon mistook the Egyptian symbol for one thousand for one hundred, right? Clever. They look nothing alike.

The sad truth for both of you is that, if the Egyptians were involved, the time element wouldn't be as nebulous as anyone suggests, they were, to put it mildly, very accurate keepers of time.

Or maybe the Egyptians weren't involved at all, and Plato, or Solon, simply "made the whole thing up." In which case the new theory doesn't mean anything anyway because "academics" have long thought anyway. It's nothing new to them. In that case, buying into this would be akin to "selling out."

Friendship seems to be driving your defense of this, nothing more, and the sad truth of the matter is that neither of you is as educated on the subject as you would have others believe. When it comes to Atlantis, there are no experts. There's only one real account, that of Plato, and we're all entitled to read it.

This effort to come up with something new on Atlantis just to be "original" is really getting wearisome. Maybe the truth is just where it's always been said to be and you people can't find it, or have gotten tired of looking. Either you believe in it or you don't, but if you don't believe in it, the question remains, why even come here in the first place?

As I said once before, if you really didn't believe in Atlantis to begin with, were simply here to "solve a mystery," then it's not going to take a lot to convince you otherwise. Well, swell, solve the mystery for yourselves, put your friendship first, just don't expect most of us to take your word for it and come along for the ride, not nor, or ever. For most of us here, the mystery remains, and probably always will remain...



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2008, 11:00:36 pm »

Jonas Bergman
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I haven't bought into anything Dhill. I still haven't read the HJCP article, and I don't think that Plato made it up. If this story was made up, then it must have been either Solon or an Egyptian priest who did it.
I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language. My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child.

Dhill: Where is the continent, larger than Libya and Asia combined..?

The original Egyptian account was probably refering to coastlands. An alliance of coastlands mightier than Libya and Asia combined.

Dhill: Of course, we all know the answer to the time element factor, too, Solon mistook the Egyptian symbol for one thousand for one hundred, right? Clever.

Remember that the Egyptian priest mentioned mythical kings from the time of Theseus in connection to the war. This is definitely not 9000 years before Solon. Plato is very clearly describing a Bronze Age culture, and the fact that the Egyptian priest said that the ancient Greek civilization collapsed and lost its writing is very important, because we know that this happened approximately 1100 B.C in close relation to the invasions of the Libyans and the Sea Peoples. Is this just a coincidence? Definitely not. The priest also said that the legend of Phaethon had a kernel of truth, and this story is clearly describing the events around 1100 B.C. All this tells me that either

1. Plato's Atlantean invasion is the invasions of the Libyans and the Sea Peoples.

OR

2. Plato's Atlantean invasion was another huge invasion roughly at the same time as the Invasion of the Libyans and the Sea Peoples.

Dhill: What about the large, flat rectangular plain? How about the elephants, do they get a lot of elephants in Turkey? Two growing seasons??

All of those descriptions could easily be found in connection to the Sea Peoples, if Solon didn't invent it. Ill write more soon.

Warm Regards, Jonas Bergman

[This message has been edited by Jonas Bergman (edited 07-21-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2008, 11:01:10 pm »

bluducky

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Is it just me, or does EVERYBODY who joins these forums start by picking a fight with someone over differing views?
I's interesting that very few people on the 4th page here actually said something remotely regarding Atlantis....

Important or not, you're going about it the wrong way.

History has shown that to get things done, each does their own particular, specialized jobs, and together, they bear fruit.

A General is nothing without his troops.

Who's the Linguist? Let him be linguist.
Who's the Geographer? Let him be geographer.

Etc etc....

Assume a role, and let others do likewise.

No one is right 100% of the time, so stop trying to be.

If I may make a suggestion: Employ a ground penetrating radar. Devices like this have previously been used to map the ocean floor; Why does no one try the same whilst looking for a great archaeological site?

no? well, what about a satellite radar?


(think about it, If it were visible, it would have been found already, right? and the 10 tons of spacedust falling to earth each and every day, plus Earth's ravaging weather, covering up our history, coupled with Atlantis THEORETICALLY being near water, would soon render such a measure necessary)

(see? this is exactly why I don't bother with the 'Atlantis' threads. Everybody thinks they're right, and allows NO room for alternatives, some even disregarding the words of Plato himself, perhaps assuming that he had 'made a mistake' somehow. These fruitless discussions are a joke.)

Noone finds anything by arguing over theories...



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #145 on: March 13, 2008, 11:01:41 pm »

Chronos

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At the risk of "picking a fight" I would like to respond to a few points directed towards my "posting."
quote:

"Quote Chronos: Simply the fact that the Sea Peoples have no legend of a cicular city does not in itself prove that there was no Atlantis.

The fact that we don't ( yet ) know about any concentric city connected to the Sea Peoples doesn't mean that there never was such a city connected to them."

It also doesn't prove that they ever had one either. If some of you aren't going to allow Atlantis the benefit of the doubt, you shouldn't be offering it to the Sea People either.

quote:

"Quote Chronos: There is no indication in the dialogues that Atlantis ever invaded what we call today as "the Middle East", let alone Turkey, in fact, the Atlantean territorial boundaries are clearly designated in Plato as up to Egypt and Tyrhennia.

"Actually there is.

Quote from Timaeus translated by Benjamin Jowett:

"For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against
the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end."

Actually, Jonas, you should have continued on with the rest of the quote, which reads:

"For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia."

The location of Atlantis is clearly fixed in the Atlantic Ocean, the Asia reference is clearly mentioned only in passing, and the geography painted by Plato clearly does not match Turkey, but rather, an area around the Atlantic. One has to work very hard to get Turkey into the Atlantis equation.

quote:

"Quote Chronos: Erick, I read that, according to Helios, you perhaps need a better understanding of Plato's works.

"The important thing is that Erick doesn't need a better understanding of Plato's work to prove his research."

No, but if one is going to comment on Plato and tell us what he meant, one would think he would try and get a keen understanding.

quote:

Regarding Atlantis' great ditch and the evidence of it as the story being imaginary:

"I totally agree here. Plato(or Critias) thought the measurements was incredible, almost unbelievable, but decided to pass on the story, very much like Diodorus and Herodotus decided to pass on legends and myths to preserve them, even though they didn't believe in everything they heard."

One detail in itself does not make the whole story incredible. Having said that, yes, perhaps there are some embellishments. Which ones? Well, I suppose if we ever find Atlantis, we'll see.

"Examples of defects in the story is:
1. "A Bronze Age nation 9000 years ago".
2. "A sunken island as large as Libya and Asia combined"

Sea travel was accomplished by the ancient people as early as 40,000 b.c. as evidenced by the fact of human occupation on both Australia and Indonesia. That was thirty thousand years before the time that Atlantis was supposed to have existed. It would not be too much of a stretch of the imagination to say that, nine thousand years before Plato, a similar Bronze Age civilization also sprung up. In any event, the truth of this is at the heart of the Atlantis debate, is it not?

"A sunken island larger than Libya and Asia combined," I'll take this point, too, since you referenced it later. Plato may not call it a continent, you may not call it a continent, but something of the size that Plato mentions would have been almost certainly bigger than an "island." It would be about the size as Australia, one of the known "continents."

"One thing is certain: Plato(or Critias) knew that the story was incredible ( almost unbelievable ).

"Remarkable" might be a better way to put it as opposed to "almost unbelievable." Egypt is also remarkable, too, one can also say it is "incredible." I doubt that anyone would believe in the Sphinx or the Great Pyramid if it didn't exist before their own eyes.

The Sea People have long been linked with Atlantis, nonetheless, my original points still remain, which are:

(1.) Atlantis operated from a base clearly in the Atlantic, the Sea People were clearly from Asia Minor.

(2.) The limits to the Atlantean empire stretched from the Atlantic to the western Mediterranean, to the boundaries of Egypt and Tyrhennia, while the Sea People, if not controlled, at least made war with the eastern Mediterranean.

(3) In addition to the Egyptians, the Sea People also warred with the Hittites. There is no indication in the dialogues that Atlantis ever invaded what we call today as "the Middle East", let alone Turkey, in fact, the Atlantean territorial boundaries are clearly designated in Plato as up to Egypt and Tyrhennia.

Given that the time elapsed in the dialogues could well be incorrect, and that we cannot be certain that Plato actually meant "nine thousand years," 1250 b.c. is still of relatively recent origin for the tale to have taken place. This is around the same time as the Trojan War, and, as we know, we have several accounts of that.

Dhill also raised several more points regarding the elephants, geography, growing season and geography. Now you'll produced evidence of an elephant skeleton in Turkey in the era of 1200 b.c. However, it is important to realize that, if we are to take Plato literally, these comparisons are forced, for it is clearly stated that Atlantis lay "in the Atlantic."

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."

[This message has been edited by Chronos (edited 07-21-2004).]


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Posts: 1008 | From: various | Registered: Jul 2004
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #146 on: March 13, 2008, 11:02:10 pm »

Jonas Bergman
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Quote Chronos: It also doesn't prove that they ever had one either.
True, but my point was that the Sea Peoples is a great mystery in itself.

Quote Chronos: Actually, Jonas, you should have continued on with the rest of the quote, which reads: ...........

The location of Atlantis is clearly fixed in the Atlantic Ocean, the Asia reference is clearly mentioned only in passing, and the geography painted by Plato clearly does not match Turkey, but rather, an area around the Atlantic. One has to work very hard to get Turkey into the Atlantis equation.

True, but if we skip the fact that the story mentions The Pillars of Hercules and the Atlantic Ocean, we are left with a story which easily matches the geography of the eastern and north-eastern Mediterranean coastlands. Remember that Solon translated each original name into Greek. This is why the king was named Atlas and the ocean Atlantic. Ill write more regarding this later.

A question for you:

How could Gades(modern Cadiz) be mentioned in the original Egyptian account if it didn't exist in the time of Atlantis?
Gades was founded approx 1100 B.C according to ancient authors, and much later if we are looking at the archaeological record. Isn't Erick's "Gedeirus" the most obvious solution to this problem? I mean, Plato wrote that Solon translated each meaning of the original Egyptian names into Greek. This created Atlas, Gades, the Atlantic Ocean and so on.

Quote Chronos: In addition to the Egyptians, the Sea People also warred with the Hittites. There is no indication in the dialogues that Atlantis ever invaded what we call today as "the Middle East", let alone Turkey, in fact, the Atlantean territorial boundaries are clearly designated in Plato as up to Egypt and Tyrhennia.

Plato very clearly states that they invaded Asia. This includes eastern Turkey and the Middle-East. They held sway as far as Egypt and Tyrhennia, but made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia.

Quote Chronos: Given that the time elapsed in the dialogues could well be incorrect, and that we cannot be certain that Plato actually meant "nine thousand years," 1250 b.c. is still of relatively recent origin for the tale to have taken place. This is around the same time as the Trojan War, and, as we know, we have several accounts of that.

Yes this is around the same time as the Trojan war, but also in the time of mythical kings such as Cecrops, Erechteus and Theseus ( mentioned by the Egyptian priest ). This is also when the ancient Greek civilization collapsed and lost its writing, exactly like the Egyptian priest said. Everything makes perfectly sense.

Quote from Timaeus translated by Benjamin Jowett
in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven.

Quote from Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins
In Greece, Linear B records were no longer kept after the disasters that occured toward the end of 1190 B.C, and this seem to signal the end of the palace-centered management of the economy, it is safe to say that the palace no longer ruled.

Greek began to sink irreversibly into a profound depression that lasted for centuries. Nothing is known of Greece in the long-lasting dark period that followed from any contemporary record, and the land was so impoverished, so lacking in material possessions, that archaeologists have found little which would illuminate those times.
There was no writing, even in the alphabetic script which came to Greece later.

All aspects of high culture were gone. It is a question whether what remained can still be considered civilization, so severe seems the regression.

Plato: for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word

Quote from Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins
It is primarily the evidence of destruction in the urban centers of Bronze
Age Greece which has given shape to the barbarian invasion theory, and which
has influenced other theories as well.

Myceane: In South House also, walls collapsed. In the Cult Center, walls were damaged. The House of Idols burned down. Following this, Mycenae continued to be occupied into IIIC but with little evidence of rebuilding. This destruction in Mycenae is now attributed to another earthquake.

Tiryns: Twenty miles south of Mycenae, the citadel of Tiryns severely damaged in a great fire, at about the time of the destruction in the Mycenae citadel it is thought. Evidence of ground shift and the remains of a woman trapped under the remains of fallen walls point towards earthquake.

Midea: A few miles east of Tiryns, Midea was severely damaged at the end of IIIB Late, an event again attributed to earthquake.

Thebes: At Thebes there is some evidence of a great fire and destruction in IIIB Late.

Iolkos: At Iolkos, the palace was burned, possibly in IIIC.

Orchomenos: Near Orchomenos, on a high point in Lake Copais, was the fortress of Gla. Gla was part of the defenses of Orchomenos. Signs of fire have been found there, associated with late IIIB or possibly IIIC pottery.

Pylos: The palace of Pylos and its associated buildings were consumed in a terrible fire, never again to be occupied. This happaned about the same time of the destruction in Mycenae.

The Countryside: In The Late Bronze Age, nearly every fertile valley of Greece contained clusters of towns and villages. From the pottery, something can be learned of the period in which the town or village thrived. Largely by these means, close to 500 settlement sites in mainland Greece have been found dating to IIIB period. Pottery evidence from these sites shows something very remarkable. Almost half of the sites do not continue into IIIC. A major disaster occured in the countryside.

Overall removal or disappearance: close to half the population, hundreds of thousands of people

Palmer believed that he had identified in the Pylos tablets records of defensive preparations made in anticipation of an attack, the attack in which Pylos was destroyed. Together, they speak of a situation of high tension and anxiety, a situation of high military alert. These dispositions appear to be directed to an attack expected from the sea, from the south.

Not all the centers or cities experienced
destruction. Athens survived, and seemed to have remembered that survival in later legends, yet even in Athens there is evidence that the city made preparations against the threat of a dangerous assault.

Archaeologists have found evidence that the walls were strengthened and a defensive
bastion added in order to better protect the main gate. At close to the same time,
within the citadel, a shaft was driven down through 120 feet of rock in order
to reach water. A wooden stairway was fitted along the inside of this shaft.

Earlier, water was obtained from a well outside the wall. However, to be able to withstand a long siege, a source of water accessible from within the walls was indespensable. Such preparations appear to show a concern of a possible attack, the need to withstand a long siege. There is no evidence of destruction, no evidence
of an attack on the citadel, and this is entirely in accord with the belief of later Athenians that Athens was never conquered, never abandoned.

Mycenaeans migrated out of the mainland in increasing numbers, many heading for the islands to the south and the east. And great epic poems fall silent concerning anything past a generation or two after the Trojan War. << As The Egyptian priest told Solon: the Greeks lost their writing and didn't remember their distant past, while the Egyptians preserved all the details in their temples.

Plato: Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times,

Plato: This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods;

Sounds very much like the collapse of Bronze Age Greek. Athens survived the attack of the invaders and a lot of earthquakes occured in close relation to this.

I dont think this is a coincidence.

Warm Regards,

Jonas Bergman

[This message has been edited by Jonas Bergman (edited 07-21-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #147 on: March 13, 2008, 11:02:29 pm »

Absonite

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  posted 07-21-2004 06:06 PM                       
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Jonas,
This really is the "kicker" in the whole magilla isn't it.
"True, but if we skip the fact that the story mentions The Pillars of Hercules and the Atlantic Ocean, we are left with a story which easily matches the geography of the eastern and north-eastern Mediterranean coastlands. Remember that Solon translated each original name into Greek. This is why the king was named Atlas and the ocean Atlantic."

With Sarmast's Cyprus location every point in Plato's story fits perfectly except this apparent "Atlantic" and "beyond the pillars of Heracles" stuff. Obviously someone is translating something erroneously and you appear to be exactly on the right track. Why is that?

Reminds me of that scene in Raiders when everyone else was digging in the wrong place.


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2008, 11:02:54 pm »

Jonas Bergman
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All Im saying right now is that the Egyptian priest very clearly was refering to
the events at the collapse of the Bronze Age, whether the invaders came from the
Atlantic Ocean or not.
Regards, Jonas Bergman

[This message has been edited by Jonas Bergman (edited 07-21-2004).]


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #149 on: March 13, 2008, 11:03:24 pm »

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Interesting references, Jonas, and I'm glad you told me that you don't think Plato made it all up. But it still does not prove a Sea People link to Atlantis. It proves that their foes were very frightened of the Sea People, that in itself does not prove they were Atlantis. Many civilizations were wiped out in ancient times, I suppose you could find similar accounts of the terror inflicted by the Romans, the Persians, or Alexander the Great when they were building their empires from the people they conquered. That was simply how they did things back then. Coincidence? Maybe a little more than you care to admit.
"An island larger than Libya and Asia combined."

Coastline. Well, perhaps, but the area still fits better in the Atlantic than the eastern Mediterranean. You mentioned the geography matches Turkey better than the coastlines bordering the Atlantic. It certainly doesn't when it comes to the Atlantic itself:

"and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded
the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent."

Saying that the Mediterranean was the true ocean implies that the Greeks knew nothing about the Atlantic. Actually they, not the Romans, were the ones to probably name the Atlantic.

There seems to be a lot of skimming over the most vital points of the account, geography, the time it existed in, the type of civilization they had, the physical description of the island itself, all to get to the Sea People.

Atlantis was supposed to have been destroyed by flooding and earthquakes. Where is the earthquake, or has it become a volcano, Santorini again? The only massive disaster in this time is Santorini.

Then, there is still the question of the location. If you're going to translate all the Egyptian names back into their Greek again, the one name that still remains the sticking point is "Atlantis" or "Atlantic." I suppose the Atlantic references were added later, like Robert Sarmast, right?

your quote:

"Remember that the Egyptian priest mentioned mythical kings from the time of Theseus in
connection to the war. This is definitely not 9000 years before Solon."

The reference to Theseus could also simply be because it is the earliest age that the Greeks could remember. In which case, they wouldn't know or care what the year was, only that it was the start of their history.

There are superficial similarities when you compare the Sea People with Atlantis. There are the same ones, perhaps even better ones if you compare the Minoan culture with Atlantis, and, for whatever reason, people aren't doing that anymore.



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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