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Worst theories & books on Atlantis


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Author Topic: Worst theories & books on Atlantis  (Read 1335 times)
Helios
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« Reply #120 on: March 13, 2008, 10:47:16 pm »

Brig

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Rate Member   posted 07-11-2004 04:32 PM                       
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Erick I went over your "list" of descriptions made by Helios. Frankly I do not see any that don't fit. There are only three theories of Atlantis that I see no merit in; (Indonesia, Mars, and Erick Wrights) so I guess I'm rather broad minded on the subject. You act as if your loss to this forum would be a great tragedy. May I point out that this is, again, a perfect example of your huge ego and arrogance. Your totally closed minded, tunnel vision is what turns people off. Its always the same with you; Atlantis was the sea people, you were right everyone else was wrong. Then it was in Turkey, you were right everyone else was wrong. Now it never existed, you are right everyone else is wrong. Do you see a pattern here?
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #121 on: March 13, 2008, 10:48:04 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 07-11-2004 05:17 PM                       
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Helios,
I see that, once again, when you cannot argue your case sufficiently you resort to assigning blame...but never to yourself, of course.

I also see that, once again, you are accusing me of employing tactics designed to "divert attention and escape responsibility." Why is it, do you suppose, that you can never seem to just limit yourself to the arguments that would support your contentions and accusations? Why is it, do you suppose, that you always have to resort to insults, accusations, and attacks of a personal nature? Could it possibly be that you know your arguments are weak and that the text does not support your position?


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The debate started like this, that you said that there were only two mentions during the dialogues of their truthfulness, while I said there were several, I found six, to be perfectly accurate.
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Again, only two of them have any pertinence in regards to the Atlantis story, since 2 or 3 of them were Socrates merely repeating what he had just heard (i.e., that it was a true story; Socrates hadn't even heard the story yet at the point his remarks were made about it being true), and 1 of them was Timaeus praying that his words be found truly spoken and acceptable to the Being (Universe) - about whom he had just finished speaking. Furthermore, Critias could not attest to the truth of the story because he was not there when it happened. Again, Critias' statements regarding the "truth" of the story is nothing more than the "hearsay" testimony of a man 5 times removed from the event.


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I believe at the start of this little exercise, you said something, about your attack on the dialogues, something along the lines of “let’s see what type of savior you are.”
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My attack on the dialogues? Where do you come up with these cheesy lines? My arguments are less an attack on the dialogues, than your arguments are an attack on logic and common sense!

Yes, I said "let's see what kind of saviour you are" because you insinuated that you had to "save" everyone from the likes of me. Apparently, you're not a very good "saviour" because, so far, you've failed to effectively argue a single point.


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I remind you, though, that since Plato uses the word “true” in the better part of the mentions, it was incumbent on you to prove to us all that when he said “true”, he really meant “false.”
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It has never been incumbent upon me to prove that when Plato wrote "true" he actually meant "false," because that has never been my position. My position has always been that Plato laid the framework for the manner in which "true" is to be construed in relation to the likeness of a Model, which is 1.) that it must be analogous to the Model and 2.) possess likelihood - and this position is supported by the text and by the 4 members of the dialogue having agreed to such a condition. You have yet to prove otherwise.

You have based your position on "belief" and "a feeling" and you want me to abandon all logic and reason and come "feel the text" and "believe" in its "truthfulness" right along with you, but that is not how the argumentative process works. You must first establish your case with such ironclad logic and reason that I could never hope to argue otherwise, and Helios, you have quite simply failed to do so.


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From this point on, I'll remind you, whatever hostility that arose through our discourse was something of your making, and I simply responded in kind.
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Assigning blame to anyone but yourself again, I see.


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It is the others here who may or may not have become confused by your rather self-serving interpretation that I care to enlighten, your own confusion seems to be quite apparent.
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Once again with the saviour nonsense, eh? Your brand of "enlightenment" is rather like a burnt-out lightbulb in a dark room. Oops! There you go again. Now you have to argue how my confusion is supposedly "apparent."


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From Critias:
Timaeus: "And I pray the being who always was of old, and has now been by me revealed, to grant that my words may endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him; but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right..."

I simply presented this point as the narrators saying that they spoke truth the say before and intended, under the threat of divine retribution, that they would speak also speak truth this day as well.

You defended this point to saying that the speakers were confining their speech about the gods. In addition, you also raised the diversion of the first paragraph.


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Yet again with the blame (anyone but yourself, of course). First of all, once again, Timaeus is the only person speaking in Critias 106a, and he is ending his discussion. Critias will speak in just a few, short, paragraphs later, and he will speak for the remainder of the book. So, I ask you again, how could Timaeus be swearing to tell the truth in his discussions that day, when his discussion was coming to an end and he would not be speaking at all any more in the whole rest of the Critias? Your argument makes no sense in the hard, cold, light of reason, and in the face of the evidence.

And, once again, this was still the same day; another day had not passed, otherwise, Plato would have noted so in the Critias, just as he did in the Timaeus.


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About ancient Athens:
"Concerning the country the Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true..."

Of course, on this I said that "true" meant "true."

While you, in turn, after first stating that the line nowhere appeared in your copy, then repented and apologized, also cast doubt that the land of Athens was ever anything other than it appears now, again something Plato does not say. Later, switching tactics, of course, much discussion on the "cosmological" nature of Timaeus, then, of course, further sarcasm to underline your point.


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Who's trying to confuse who here? I suggest you re-read my postings. You are mixing my postings to you and my posting to Jiri together. There was, indeed, much discussion as to the Cosmological treatices discussed in the Timaeus, but not in response to the quote about the Egyptian priests and what they told Solon about ancient Athens! You really are a piece of work! Do you know that?


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Ah, here we had all the varied definitions of the word "incredible." I said that you were reading too much into the line, you opened a dictionary and proceeded to read even more. Ah, the joys, and triumphs of eptimology.
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Uh..where, exactly, was your triumph, Helios?


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From Timaeus:
Critias: "Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages..."

Again, I said that "true" was "true."

And, of course, hear was where we had, initially, at least, the definition of the word "hearsay" as your key arguing point. Friends, remember the discussion of the "bored, 1950's housewives..?" I believe here also arose the discussion of "plausible deniability" as Erick later reached for a more respectable metaphor in order to prove his "point." Presumably, a built-in method for Plato to "bob and weave" and escape the story's credibility, should it, perhaps, be received poorly, I imagine.

I trust I paid that point the proper consideration, Erick?


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Not at all, and I would never, in a million years, trust you to pay proper consideration to any of my points. As usual, you were either not paying attention to what you were reading, or you failed to understand the point, which was that the fact that he could deny it, or he could embrace it is what gives it plausible deniability. Whether or not Plato would or would not do anything is never addressed or surmised; the fact that it has plausible deniability stands irrespective of what Plato would or would not do.

Once again, Critias could not attest to the fact that Solon attested to the truth of the story; he was merely going off of what his grandfather told him and who, in turn, went off of what Dropides told him. It is hearsay, plain and simple, any way you cut it.


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Concerning the war between Athens & Atlantis:
Socrates: "And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?"

This was one of the most obvious references by Socrates concerning the story's truth, which, I believed best attested to it's truth.

Erick's response?

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"To save time, see my previous point. "

Of that, I'll simply rest my case.


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You never really ever respond to anything, do you? Once again, Socrates is merely repeating (like a parrot does) what he has just heard Critias tell him. He cannot, therefore, be used to attest to the truthfulness of the story.


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Again concerning the war:
Socrates (later in the dialogue): "And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction?"

Erick viewed this as merely an "echo" of the earlier point and called on his pet parrots to assist him. He chose various other ways to explain himself, but I believe that this one sums up his position most perectly:

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"Squawk! Polly want a cracker?"

I trust, if we explored this again, we would be treated to further explanations of the word "hearsay."


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Once again, Socrates is merely repeating (like a parrot does) what he has just heard Critias tell him. He cannot, therefore, be used to attest to the truthfulness of the story.


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I, in turn, wrote:
"Parrot-speak aside, Plato makes a point to say that the story is true. It is only those that wish to claim it as an allegory of some type that wish to insist it's a fiction."

All told, three mentions at the mininum of the word "true" or variation thereof, two mentions of the word "fact," and one reference by the narrator that his descriptions are as he was "told."


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Once again, Plato never said it; he didn't even include himself as one of the members of the group; he left the fifth member up to the imagination of the reader.

The Bible contains the word "true" and "truth" and "verily" countless times; should we take everything that is written in it as "true" also?

All of your arguments completely ignore what the whole point of the dialogue was; to put forth a suitable model of Socrates' ideal polity in action, in a suitable war. In order for the war to be suitable, the opponent must, too, be suitable - hence, the Atlanteans.


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So when I say that you are a crude debator and a sloppy researcher, I am, perhaps, being kind, Erick. I submit that you are the one with a truly low comprehension of the material, for, had you really been as aware of the material as you pretend to be, you would have been aware of each of these quotes before I even told them to you. Indeed, as I have also told you, I wouldn't have even had to inform you of them at all.
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I was perfectly aware of them, Helios, I just knew that they weren't applicable because they were either non-contextual or hearsay. You presume a great deal too much for such a "newbie." By the way, you still have not proven, nor shown, in any way shape or form, how I am a "crude debator, sloppy researcher, or have a low comprehension of the material." When are you planning on doing that? Are you ever?


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The long and short of it is that only someone who happens to be desperate to support his own perculiar idea on Atlantis would resort to such vague and short-sighted arguments to plead his case, in terms of this material.
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Uh oh, there you go again! Now you have to argue how my arguments have been "vague" and/or "short-sighted," and in what manner I have displayed any "desperation." A person would think that you would learn to quit sticking your foot in your mouth, but apparently not.


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I am not coming up with any new line of logic here, I am simply applying a logic that has been in force since as long as mankind knew the value of writing which is that "true" means "true."
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Apparently, you believe everything that you read. Its a good thing that Plato didn't write that the Atlanteans had big, long, pointy teeth and hair all over the bodies, because you probably would have thought that was "true" also! Herodotus wrote that there was men in Libya "that had eyes in the middle of their chests" - do you believe that was "true" also? He used the word "verily" (i.e., in truth)?

Give it a rest, Helios. You know just as well as I do that just because someone says or writes that something is "true," doesn't necessarily make it "true." It isn't a faulty, obtuse, line of defense, its just reality.


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Indeed there are several variations of the text between all three translations, but since they are too numerous and that would be a much longer exercise, I will not illustrate the examples. If you are as interested in the material as you claim to be, you will feel free to investigate themselves. Be assured, they are there, and they are not minor ones either.
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O.K., so, first there are three, and then there are so many it would take too long to list them? I didn't ask for all of them, I only asked for three. Please list those three. Remember, you have stated several times that my text is somehow faulty, so now you must defend that position by supplying the evidence to support it. I already know that there aren't any major differences or variations between the different versions; you are the one who has said that there is, therefore it is now "incumbent" upon you to prove that there are variations between the different translations.


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Then again, I have always maintained that you need to return to the dialogues in order to have a better grasp of the material at hand. You have resisted this suggestion, it seems, at your own peril and because of your own faulty pride. To further resist it would be even more at your own peril, for it will put you at a further disadvantage when it comes to true comprehension of the points at hand, not the ones that you simply wish to be there, but aren't.
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I have lived in these texts for the past six years. How can I return to something I never left?

You have yet to prove a single one of your contentions and that is why I find your suggestions so laughable.


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The dialogues remain intact, still, after 2400 years, while your theory as well as perhaps yourself, seem to have taken quite a beating.
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What theory? We haven't discussed any "theory" of mine.


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I do not see this so much as a victory for me, but rather Plato, who has been vindicated once again, after yet another ill-informed amateur has tried to "take him down."
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Victory? (chuckle) You have to actually win a point in order to claim "victory." Heck, the only point you even responded to was the one about "manuscript," and on that point you admitted defeat! Victory? Not quite.

Uh, how, exactly, have I tried to "take Plato down?"

"Ill-informed amateur?" Well, I guess you'll have to defend this one too, now.


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Conclusion: whether or not Atlantis did indeed exist or not, Plato himself believed that it existed and also wished for the story to be taken as true as others as well.
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Your conclusion presumes to know what Plato believed and what he wished for others to believe, fixates on the appearance of the word "true," but disregards all of Plato's words in the dialogues as to how "true" is to be construed.[/quote]

My conclusion rests squarely on all of Plato's words and pays close attention to what they actually say as to how "true" is to be construed. It presumes nothing.


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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."
Not to be rude, but I believe we have just seen a perfect example.


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"Not to be rude?" You don't consider that to be rude?

Now, please focus yourself on the 10 requests I made in my previous posting, and make an honest attempt to address them. To refresh your memory, those were:


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1. Please illustrate for us all, by quoting any one of my postings, where and when I ever implied that you said that Critias 106a was not the first paragraph of the Critias.
2. Please demonstrate for us all, Helios, where, in passage 106a of the Critias, Plato attested to the truth of the Atlantis story?

You chose to demonstrate that Plato attested to the truth of the Atlantis story in Critias 106a by quoting the phrases “spoken truly and acceptably by him” and “just retribution if he errs” from Critias 106a. You have failed, however, to demonstrate that Plato’s use of these phrases was for the purpose of attesting to the truth of the Atlantis story, because you did not demonstrate that these phrases were said in regards to the Atlantis story. Again, please demonstrate that the aforementioned phrases were written in regards to the Atlantis story.

3. Please illustrate for us all, Helios, by quoting from the Critias, where Plato ever indicated that yet another day had passed?

4. To inform us all as to just what articles of Mr. Gill’s you have ever read, what journal(s) it/they appeared in, and what about it/them caused you to have such a low opinion of him?

5. Demonstrate your familiarity with Christopher Gill by telling us all what university Mr. Gill is associated with?

6. Provide evidence that supports your contention that my conclusion, that Plato wishes us to observe Critias’ disbelief due to his use of the word “incredible,” is “reaching” in order to prove my point.

The evidence for my conclusion was provided in the form of:

A. A list of words synonymous with “incredible” (i.e., not credible) that illustrate the negative aspects of the word “incredible” in relation to that topic (e.g., unbelievable (i.e., not believable), implausible (i.e., not plausible), improbable (i.e., not probable), doubtful (i.e., full of doubt), questionable(i.e., causing one to question), nonsensical (i.e., not making any sense), not to mention absurd and far-fetched)
B. Plato’s own statement that “a work of such extent (in addition to others) could never have been artificial.” The logical inference to be drawn from this is that either the writer - Plato, the speaker - Critias, or both, believed that particular detail in the description of Atlantis to be either naturally occurring (i.e., not man-made) or fictional (i.e., not occurring at all).
C. Two different ways that the passage could be approached based on the available evidence, both of which necessitate the observance of Critias’ own incredulity regarding that particular detail in the description of Atlantis.
D. A list of words & phrases synonymous with the word “nevertheless” that illustrate that Critias’ use of the word “nevertheless” indicates that he felt obliged to say what he was told regardless of its incredulous nature.

Please respond to the evidence listed above.

8. Please explain to us all how my agenda, which you have stated is “to use both dialogues to support my point(s)”, is any less your agenda, or the agenda of any person posting in this Forum?

9. Please “put up” by providing evidence of the insults, or “shut up” and quit stating that I have insulted you.

10. Please illustrate how my responses were non-contextual, contained erroneous comparisons, were based in false logic, or contained any insults. Please illustrate this by providing evidence that supports that contention.

11. Either “put up or shut up” regarding being able to refute my research at its core.


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Regards,

Erick


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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com



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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #122 on: March 13, 2008, 10:48:52 pm »

Anteros

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   posted 07-11-2004 06:01 PM                       
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Wow... what an incredible waste of bytes.
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‘Hydrogen: a light, colorless, odorless gas, that given enough time, turns into people.’

BALONEY DETECTOR
http://www.creationsafaris.com/crevbd.htm


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #123 on: March 13, 2008, 10:49:30 pm »

 
Brig

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Your balony detector must have rang off the table with Ericks post. The wordier he gets the less he says.
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Posts: 10082 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002   
 
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2008, 10:49:59 pm »

 
Anteros

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   posted 07-11-2004 06:32 PM                       
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 Grin Grin Grin Grin
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2008, 10:50:26 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 07-11-2004 07:43 PM                       
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Anteros,
You might want to try actually reading the information contained in the web sites that you post links to. You should pay special attention to:

Propaganda - Fear Mongering, Hate Mongering, Scare Tactics
- Ridicule

Logical Fallacies - Circular Reasoning
- Non-Sequitur
- Shifting the Burden of Proof

Smokescreen - Ad Hominem
- Side-stepping
- Bluffing
- Subjectivity

Helios' postings have shown evidence of all of those.

You, Anteros, however, have not written anything at all in regards to this discusion. You have sat by on the sidelines, allowed Helios to fight the good fight for you, and thrown in a quick quip every now and again. At least Helios has the strength of his convictions and the guts to stand up for what he believes. You have stood for nothing. Mind you, that doesn't get Helios "off the hook" - he still has to support his positions, statements, assertions, contentions, etc., with evidence.


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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com



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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2008, 10:50:58 pm »

Anteros

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If I hadn't read the site at least twice, learning an aweful lot about how people like you operate, I would not have included it in my signature. I thought by doing that I could share the wealth with others.
Helios is doing a great job making you look like a ranting buffoon without my help, or anyone else's for that matter.



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2008, 10:51:28 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 07-11-2004 08:06 PM                       
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Brig,
Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion? An argument of any sort? All you ever seem to post are insults and negative opinions.

You disagree with me...I get it. Now how about posting some sort of argument as to how I am supposedly wrong?


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You act as if your loss to this forum would be a great tragedy.
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The loss of any forum member, for any reason other than disinterest, is a loss.


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May I point out that this is, again, a perfect example of your huge ego and arrogance.
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The fact that I don't believe that a forum member should be able to get away with calling another forum member names is an example of my huge ego and arrogance? Or the fact that I said that I would leave the forum, like so many others have, if nothing is done about it, and you don't think my leaving would be a loss to the forum, is an example of my ego and arrogance? Did it ever occur to you that everybody might not share your same opinion of me?


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Your totally closed minded, tunnel vision is what turns people off.
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Are you presuming to speak for everyone with that remark, or just expressing your own opinion?


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Its always the same with you; Atlantis was the sea people, you were right everyone else was wrong.
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I was right, and I have given you as much of the evidence of it as I can without violating my publication rights agreement. You are free to purchase a copy of the article when it is published, though.


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Then it was in Turkey, you were right everyone else was wrong.
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Please feel free to quote any one of my postings, at any time, and illustrate where and when I have ever said that I was right about Turkey and everybody else was wrong.


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Now it never existed, you are right everyone else is wrong.
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This one is one-in-the-same with "Atlantis was the Sea Peoples."


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Do you see a pattern here?
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Yes, but only that you are consistently angry, hateful, and bitter.


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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com



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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2008, 10:52:02 pm »

Erick Wright

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   posted 07-11-2004 08:16 PM                       
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Anteros,
Please feel free to elaborate, at any time, as to how Helios has succeeded in making me look like a "ranting buffoon."

Hmmmm, "ranting buffoon," I guess that would fall under "Propaganda: Ridicule."

Perhaps you should re-read the site a third time?


------------------
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots."

www. despair.com



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Posts: 770 | From: Columbus, Ohio U.S.A. | Registered: Sep 2002   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
Helios
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« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2008, 10:52:55 pm »

Helios

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   posted 07-12-2004 01:30 AM                       
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Brig, Anteros, thank you for the kind words. Not to worry, I'll handle this, gentlemen...
Erick,

I suggest you use your vast knowledge of eptimology, not to mention your Webster's dictionary, to look up the words "true", "truly" and, of course, "fact." I note, with interest, that those seem to be of the few words of Plato's who's meanings you do not supply. My position has remained consistent in this throughout, I merely say that when Plato says "true", he means "true." It is only to those with particularly obtuse minds wherein "true" actually means "false." Any other issues besides that, your "list", for instance, is a mere sidebar meant to divert attention from the central "truth" of the dialogue. I need no diversionary tactics on my side, for "truth", it seems, is on my side.

Ah, Erick, wih each passage you write, your explanation vary a little more to suit the situation, your tone seems a little more desperate. I think that you are finally beginning to see the flaws in some of your arguments, though you are, as yet, loathe to admit them to any of us. I say this, not meaning to demean you, did I detect a tear in your voice behind some of your comments of today..?

First let me address this little kernel of wisdom of yours concering my use of the word "manuscript":

"As one who fancies himself an expert in eptimology," you'll be interested to know that R.G. Bury's translation also uses the word "writings."

And yet, on your quote of 07/02, you also said:

"Second, regarding the passage discussing Critias’ supposed possession of the “letters” (never, in any place, is it referred to as a manuscript!) that Solon brought back from Egypt, of course I was aware of it and why on earth would you ever think that I would bring up a passage that would seemingly support a position contrary to my own?"

Why? Why to find the truth, Erick, then again, I keep forgetting, you seem more interested in being "right" than in finding the truth. The quote continues:

"Additionally, the supposed possession of Solon’s “letters” necessitates the question “If he had been in possession of the letters since childhood, then why would he have needed nearly an entire night to recall the tale from memory?” Are we supposed to believe that Critias never once, in all the intervening years since his childhood, pulled the letters out and read them again? And why did Critias earlier say that he had to recollect the story overnight, and from childhood, but, then, later change his tune and say that he had been in possession of Solon’s letters since childhood? None of Solon’s letters has ever surfaced, and nothing remains of the Temple of Neith, as it was destroyed long ago (not that the story was ever inscribed there); this means that there is still only one (not three) source for the Atlantis story – Plato. Oral tradition is certainly a possibility, but, if you support that argument you cannot then also support the argument of Critias’ supposed possession of Solon’s letters, now can you?"

In all six uses by you of the word "letters" even though you claim that the Bury translation calls them "writings." Next, you'll tell me that you were paraphrasizing. Of course, my use of the word "manuscript" (two times) was simple paraphrasing, too. I was intending to let your usage of the word "slide" yet you made such a grand deal out of my own usage of "manuscript" that I must now say:

Yet another error on your part. Even if you now claim, as it seems you were that there is little difference between "writings" and "letters"I think we can all see you true "scientific methodology" at work here: spend voluminous amounts of time upon petty details that have little to do with the gist of the material in order to deflect attention from logic on your part when it is at it's weakest and most suspect.

Concerning this little pearl of today:

"My attack on the dialogues? Where do you come up with these cheesy lines? My arguments are less an attack on the dialogues, than your arguments are an attack on logic and common sense!"

Ah yes, Erick, far be it from you to have ever been insulting to anyone here, ever the victim.

Concering your attack on the dialogues, I refer you to your now infamous comments of 06/30:

" There's so much "hearsay" going on in this narrative that it reminds me of how, back in the 1950's, bored housewives used to stand on opposite sides of a fenceline and gossip about their neighbors. Its ridiculous!

I trust that that was attack enough for both of us, though, of course now you'll no doubt simply say you were being "facetious." Again, I ask you, how can you ever hope to comprehend the dialogues if you don't even respect them?

"Propaganda
- Fear Mongering, Hate Mongering,
Scare Tactics
- Ridicule


Logical Fallacies - Circular Reasoning
- Non-Sequitur
- Shifting the Burden of Proof

Smokescreen - Ad Hominem
- Side-stepping
- Bluffing
- Subjectivity"

Honestly, this proves what I have been saying a thousandfold,for they each apply far more ably to your arguments than mine. My stated position has not changed, never wavered. I simply imply that "truth" means "truth". Why would I need to employ any such tactics when "truth" is on my side? "Truth" it seems only means "false" if one happens to be desperate to prove a vain new theory upon Atlantis. I invite anyone to read, even re-read the discussion, only yourself or one who happens to be a good friend of yours could even remotely see the logic in such ill-formed, mal-nourished arguments as yours. A shame upon you to even try to deflect these items upon me when each happened to be a method of your employ at almost every posting.

quote:

"I have lived in these texts for the past six years. How can I return to something I never left?"

I find that statement most comical considering the lack of knowledge you have displayed upon the topic. It is quite plain to myself and anyone just how much work needs to be done on your behalf. Again, I suggest a return to the dialogues, yet this time, perhaps try a version other than the "Bury" version. The versions by either Jowett or Lee first come to mind. Jowett's, perhaps first for it does seem to be the most enlightened of them all. At any rate, please do not return to the "writings" of Mr. Gill, as has been known to also confuse, rather than enlighten, those who happen to embark upon an honest quest for Plato.

Your quote regarding Brig:

"Yes, but only that you are consistently angry, hateful, and bitter."

Again, it would seem that anyone who agrees with you is subject to this same kind of treatment.

Regarding Anteros:

"Anteros, Please feel free to elaborate, at any time, as to how Helios has succeeded in making me look like a "ranting buffoon."

"Hmmmm, "ranting buffoon," I guess that would fall under "Propaganda: Ridicule."

"Perhaps you should re-read the site a third time?

Please don't wish that upon them. Actually, it is you that might do well to re-read your comments of the last few postings, Erick, for it is plain that they are becoming increasingly more bitter and hostile. I realize that you now see long-cherished theories of yours currently unravelling before your eyes, but that is the way of things, especially if they are faulty to begin with. Bring them only to friends or family if you wish consistent encouragement. Now, of course, we'll all be in for another long-winded diatribe of yours in response. Please do not confuse the quantity of your material wih the quality, however. I think that others are "onto" you when I hear comments like "the more you write, the less you say." The sad truth of the matter, for you, that is, is that, to me, your "writings" seem very much long on opinions even "hearsay", yet they sadly bereft of any actual "proof" to support your, at times, ill-formed conclusions.

Again, sadly, Plato himself is also no longer here to validate any new theories, all we have is his writings, one of which was:

"And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?"

All told, three mentions at the mininum of the word "true" or variation thereof, two mentions of the word "fact," and one reference by the narrator that his descriptions are as he was "told."

As I said, the dialogues remain intact, still, after 2400 years, while your theory as well as perhaps yourself, seem to have indeed taken quite a beating.

Conclusion: whether or not Atlantis did indeed exist or not, Plato himself believed that it existed and also wished for the story to be taken as true as others as well.

As I have said, I don't see this so much as my own victory, Erick, but one on behalf of Plato, the Academy, perhaps even those who once may have dwelt in Atlantis. I am hoping that, if they really existed, their ghosts are at rest this night.

[This message has been edited by Helios (edited 07-12-2004).]


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Posts: 406 | From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus) | Registered: Jun 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2008, 10:53:32 pm »

Andre
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   posted 07-12-2004 03:06 AM                       
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Helios,
You may be very close to point of Erick. Indeed Plato's characters are confirming with regular intervals that it's all true.

So how do I see it all?

Erick has discovered a very delicate plot in the writings, based on the homograph idea. He cannot elaborate on that presently. But this would proof beyond any doubt that the Atlantis story is virtually identical to the sea people story. Just assume that this is true for the moment.

If there has been a real Atlantis city that was destroyed, it would also have been known in the other sources concerning the sea people. As it is not, the conclusion of the non existance of Atlantis is logical.

The question remains who made that delicate plot. Was it Solon, Critias or Plato? If it was not Plato and Plato acted merely as a reporter then he also could be convinced of the truth of the story. Solon was a remarkable man and a poet and it may be very likely that he invented the modification of the sea people story.

But then again Plato seems to have been rather intelligent too and he never played objective reporter before or after. So he may have had an objective when he had his characters stating the story to be true.

What would have been said in the missing part of the Critias?



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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2008, 10:53:59 pm »

Essan

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   posted 07-12-2004 03:50 AM                       
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Just a thought: does anyone believe that Plato wrote verbatim what was said in a conversion between Socrates, Hermocrates, Timeaus, and Critias?
Because, if it wasn't a verbatim report then it must have been, in part, made up. And if part of it was made up, who can say which part (or parts)?


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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2008, 10:54:20 pm »

atalante
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Essan,
The dialog takes place in parallel to some festival in honor of "the goddess" (either Athena or Demeter).
Presumably that festival could be the Eleusinian mysteries, which were intended to be kept secret.

Therefore, perhaps Plato was introducing Solon's egyptian story (Atlantis) as an acceptable way to comment on some of the "secrets".

In regard to linking truth to belief: it seems that the Athenians were expected to "believe" their Eleusinian mysteries, and their Panathenaia festivals.

So Plato/Solon could have been trying to cite external (Egyptian) info regarding the "truth", or the basis, behind the Eleusinian war, and the Eleusinian mysteries.

Alternately, the story could have been seeking a basis for the great festival of Panathenia, and the conflict between Athena and Poseidon for control of Athens.


[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-12-2004).]


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« Reply #133 on: March 13, 2008, 10:54:51 pm »

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The case for the Sea People being the sole basis for the Atlantis story is a weak one at best, built on circumstantial evidence and superficial similarities. It is not a new one, nor hardly original. Simply the fact that the Sea People have no legend of a cicular city does not in itself prove that there was no Atlantis. That is a faulty line of logic that implies that the Sea People were the sole basis for the Atlantis myth, and, as I have said, that case is circumstantial at best.
As I have seen already noted by others in previous threads I shall now paraphrase here:

(1.) Atlantis operated from a base clearly in the Atlantic, the Sea People were clearly from Asia Minor.

(2.) The limits to the Atlantean empire stretched from the Atlantic to the western Mediterranean, to the boundaries of Egypt and Tyrhennia, while the Sea People, if not controlled, at least made war with the eastern Mediterranean.

(3) In addition to the Egyptians, the Sea People also warred with the Hittites. There is no indication in the dialogues that Atlantis ever invaded what we call today as "the Middle East", let alone Turkey, in fact, the Atlantean territorial boundaries are clearly designated in Plato as up to Egypt and Tyrhennia.

Given that the time elapsed in the dialogues could well be incorrect, and that we cannot be certain that Plato actually meant "nine thousand years," 1250 b.c. is still of relatively recent origin for the tale to have taken place. This is around the same time as the Trojan War, and, as we know, we have several accounts of that.

I'll grant you there are some superficial similarities, but, as also has also no doubt been noted in earlier, both Santorini and Minoan Crete, even ancient Troy, for that matter, also share those certain similarities with Atlantis.

As for the story being told "verbatim," well, of course not, the descriptions of both Atlantis and ancient Athens are no doubt exaggerated to some extent. But since Plato makes a point to "underline" so to speak both the antiquity and location of Atlantis, we can be certain that he did not mean a people that existed in the eastern Mediterranean, not the western Mediterranean, nor hardly the Atlantic Ocean.

In addition, even if Greek records were sorely lacking on the history of the Sea People, Egyptian records were certainly not. They would not make such a great mistake as to place them in the Atlantic Ocean whilst they clearly came from the east. Nor would they gain any advantage by deceiving Solon of their origin, should the story of how Atlantis actually became known Solon actually have existed, of course. Of this, I can only refer to you to Helios' seemingly essential point regarding the "truth" of the story.

Any "homographs" built into the tale are, of course, in the eye of the beholder, but I remind you, gentlemen, that the original dialogues are lost and we are merely working from "translations of translations" at best. This leaves the work open to all manner of errors, both numerical and grammatical, and one can't even be certain of what they are seeing. We aren't even reading Plato's original words.

There is a thread on this forum entitled "Sea People" that, for me, at least, has much worthy information on it. I suggest that everyone who intends to champion the Sea People familiarize themselves with it as it might immediately clear up some common misconceptions regarding the origins of the Sea People.


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Posts: 1008 | From: various | Registered: Jul 2004
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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« Reply #134 on: March 13, 2008, 10:55:17 pm »

Chronos

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   posted 07-12-2004 10:55 AM                       
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Erick, I read that, according to Helios, you perhaps need a better understanding of Plato's works. Perhaps this link might be of some use to you:
http://www.plato-dialogues.org/works.htm


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Posts: 1008 | From: various | Registered: Jul 2004   
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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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