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The island of Meroe

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Titiea
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« on: March 09, 2008, 03:58:19 am »

Hello Friends,

Here is the abstract of the communication I intend to submit to the Athens 2008 conference on Atlantis :

Plato’s “atlantida nesos” as the island of Meroe

Considering the Milos consensus, I feel convenient to propose Plato’s “atlantida nesos” as « the island of Meroe » today in North Sudan. This territory was so-called by ancient authors because it was encircled by three rivers : the Blue Nile on the South, the White Nile on the West and its affluent Atbara on the North-East. According to Flavius Josephe (Antiquity of the Jews, II, 10) : “The city of Meroe was situate in a retired place, and was inhabited after the manner of an island, being encompassed with a strong wall, and having the rivers to guard them from their enemies, and having great ramparts between the wall and the rivers”.
The archeological digging in Meroe began on 1909-1914 and are pursued until now but they are still greatly uncompleted. However they allowed to discover numerous pyramids, several temples, a royal bath and even the “hippodrome with barracks for guards” as described by Plato, as well as an important iron industry. Although the actual remains were dated from the 8th century B.C. to the 2nd century A.D., I propose to place the foundation of the Atlantis kingdom by Poseidon circa 1500 B.C. under the reign of the Egyptian king Thutmose Ist who had a powerful navy. This datation is based on the fact that at the saïte period the Egyptian demotic characters for numeration of 1000 and 100 were confusing. So the reading of the Egyptian records might be 900 years (instead of 9000 years) before the reign of Amasis. However until now we have no archeological proof that Thutmose Ist who have set his frontier at Kurgus beyond the fourth cataract had pursued his conquest as far as the island of Meroe.
On the other part the final cataclysm could occur on 591 B.C. under the reign of king Psametik II. Indeed this king made a victorious military campaign against Kushites (Ethiopians for Greeks) with an army mainly composed of Greek mercenaries led by a Greek general Potasimto and an Egyptian general named Amasis who will become himself pharaoh in Saïs twenty years later. Altough Psametik II celebrated his great victory against Kushites, it is possible that a great flooding had destroyed a great part of his army because rivers are often devasting the Sudanese plains on the rain season as recently observed in 2003. However we don’t know exactly which was the location of the city of Pnubs reached by this army. Moreover, the zone is very sismic.
It is well known that Egyptians and Kushites were perpetually rivalizing for the domination of the Nile valley all along centuries. And it is a fact that Greek people did not know anything about the history of Egypt and the Land of Kush. So they named Atlantes the Kushites ennemies of Egypt because Homer (Odyssey I ) described Atlas as “watching on the high columns that keep heaven and earth asunder”, corresponding to Ras Dejen (meaning in Amharic language “the head guard”) the highest volcanic peaks of Semien mountains presently in Ethiopia (4,533 meters = 14,872 ft). But we can also remark that a Kushite king whose pyramid was found in Napata was named Atlanersa (653-643 B.C.) and a queen was named Qalhata (716-702 B.C.) cf. Clito…
Obviously the “island of Meroe” was not in the middle of ocean : the mistake of the Greek translation could be due to the Egyptian expression “wadj our” (the great green) meaning sometimes for sea and sometimes for the Nile. As for the unnavigable sea mentioned by Plato it could correspond to the zone of the Dalhak archipelago situate in front of the Eritrean ancient city of Adulis which harbour was named Gabaza. This area was very dangerous for ancient sailers because of its numerous coral reefs forming high grounds just under the level of the sea. The straits named by Plato “Columns of Herakles” is in fact in arabian language Bal-el-Mandeb. The identification of the Atlantic ocean with the Red Sea is confirmed by several ancient authors and by its name Pontos in Plato’s text (cf. the Land of Pount for Egyptians). By the fact this sea was really easily crossed by passing from one island to another as just before the straits are the seven islands mentioned by Proclus as devoted to Persephone (i.e. Isis wife of Osiris king of hell)  the Sawabi archipelago.
Another confusion could happen concerning the measures of length : in Plato’s text they are given in Greek stadia (a stadium = 185 meters) while the Egyptian unit the “khet” measured 52,4 meters. (See the table of corrected dimensions of Atlantis of in Ulf Richter’s paper, Atlantis 2005 p. 451).
So I think that the source of Solon’s report was an Amasis’ propaganda aiming to remember to Greeks that forty years early, together with Egyptian troops they have subdued the bellicose kingdom of Kush, this huge power whose Taharqa (690-664 B.C.) 4th “Ethiopian” pharaoh of the 25th dynasty in Memphis (and father of king Atlanersa) have spread the domination from Khartum as far as Lebanon (and as far as Etruria which is Tyrrhenia according to Strabo V, 2, 2) thus reigning for twenty years on the largest empire ever created on the Nile in ancient times. In fact king Amasis who was confronted to the imminent threat of Babylon and Persia, was managing to obtain a new military alliance with Aegeans.
Although Plato’s description mainly applied to Meroe, he must be considered as reporting the entire history of Kush whose kings always claimed to be the heirs of ancient Egyptian rulers. In fact egyptologists consider presently that the early Meroitic period was contemporaneous of the Napatean 25th dynasty and Meroe became the capital of Kush only after the Psametik II raid on Napata in 591 B.C. However many areas remained to be investigated inside and outside the royal enclosure, so we can hope that new archeological materials will soon supply an earlier datation of the first royal foundation in Meroe as suggested by ancient authors.

Remark :

It is a pity that not any egyptologist accepted until now to study the problem of Atlantis because they considered this subject as mythology or esoterism. I don't hope anymore to obtain that at least one specialist of Nubian archeology will attend the 2008 meeting in Athens. Perhaps it is too early...


« Last Edit: March 31, 2008, 04:07:45 am by Titiea » Report Spam   Logged

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Mario Dantas
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2008, 04:12:07 am »




Dear Titeia,

You have done a great work. I was pleasantly surprised by the reference of Ulf Richter's "khet" approach regarding Atlantis measures. I wish you all the best in Athens, you deserve it. Thank you for being an example to us all!

Best Regards

Mario

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Titiea
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2008, 04:27:10 am »

Thank you, Mario, for this kind appreciation of my work. Ulf Richter have made a great lot of work before and after the Milos conference and I have appreciated very much the content of his communication. I think that many participants of the conference have regretted him after his death. Some month ago I have suggested that the Athens Conference could be named the 2nd Conference on Atlantis In Memoriam of Ulf Richter, but I have no response on this subject.

I add below my comments concerning the 2005 Milos consensus :

CHECKING THE MILOS 2005 CONSENSUS
1.   Metropolis of Atlantis should have been located where an island used to be and where parts of it may still exist. YES it is. The whole territory of Butana (the Island of Meroe) is bordered at West by White Nile, at south by Bleu Nile and at east by Atbara river.

2.   The Metropolis of Atlantis should have had a most distinct geomorphology composed of alternating concentric rings of land and water.
The ancient city of Meroe was encircled by walls and ramparts. A canal had encircled the royal walled enclosure.
Two affluents of the Nile : Wadi Al Hawad at south and Wadi Mukabrab at North protected the entry in the plain of Meroe. On the West side it was protected by the Nile and at east by a round mountain.


3.   The Atlantis should have been located outside the Pillars of Hercules
The Pillars of Hercules were at the Straits of Bab El Mandeb.

4.   The Metropolis of Atlantis was greater than Libya and Anatolia and Middle East and Sinai (combined). Obviously NOT convenient for the Meroe ”metropolis”. But could correspond to Africa.

5.   Atlantis must have sheltered a literate population with metallurgical and navigational skills. Obviously YES, iron and gold industry and at least fluvial navigation.

6.   The Metropolis of Atlantis should have been routinely reachable from Athens by sea.  NOT routinely and not by sea but by the Nile for the Greeks of Naucratis.

7.   At the time, Atlantis should have been at war with Athens. NO (only fighting against Greek mercenaries of the Egyptian army).

8.   The Metropolis of Athens must have suffered a devastating physical destruction of unprecedented proportions. Yes an earthquake could break the ramparts and walls of Meroe and allowed the Nile to drown the city in the season of monsoon.

9.   The Metropolis of Atlantis should have sunk entirely or partly below the water. YES, but only for some time.

10.   The Metropolis of Atlantis was destroyed 9000 Egyptian years before the 6th century B.C.  NO. The Libyan priests of goddess Neith in Sais could misread the numeration in hieratic Egyptian characters in the book of the temple. Not 9000 years but 900 years before the 6th century is the time of the creation of the Plato’s Atlantis kingdom (circa 1500 B.C.). The cataclysm could happen on 591 B.C. under ther reign of Psametik II who made a victorious campaign againt Kush with the help of Greek mercenaries.

11.   The harbour of Atlantis was distant of 50 stadia (7,5 km) from the city. NO, the harbour of Meroe on the Nile (Tadu island) was only 500 m from the city. Unless it was at Wad ben Naqa (30 km upstream)

12.    Atlantis had a high population density, enough to support a large army (10,000 chariots, 1,200 ships, 1,200,000 hoplites) Possibly ? see below:
Pline, Natural History, VI, 29-30 : " On the time when Ethiopia exercised hegemony, the island of Meroe enjoyed a big celebrity. One says that it maintained usually 250 000 fighters and 3000 craftsmen. It is claimed that today again Ethiopia contains 45 kingdoms. All this region was first known under the name of Etheria; later it was called Atlantia, and then Ethiopia, following to Ethiops son of Vulcan-Hephaïstos. Between Napata and Meroe are the Atabules.


13.   The region of Atlantis involved the sacrifice of bulls. This is a practice of the ethny Oromo-Gallas who presently have emigred South of Sudan. See below :
P. Martial de Salviac – "Les Galla" Oudin, Paris. p 18 :" Abba bokou, president of the justice parliament slaughters a beef, sprinkles himself of its blood and sprinkled his ministers. To enact a law, one slaughters a young bull. The king dives his scepter in blood ".
Moreover this ethny does correspond to the description of the 5 couples of twins described by Plato :
A. d’ABBADIE – Les Oromos… (Ann. Sté Scientif. de Bruxelles, 4e ann. 1880). Tradition of  Maca. This one divided the country in 10 castes or gadas, grouped two by two and exercising the power successively during 8 years (power of Lubas) : Names of castes: 1. Birmaye and Aldada, 2. Malba and Horata, 3. Mudana and Bifole, 4. Robali and Sabaqa, 5. Dulo and Kirole. These five couples correspond to five natural governments: 1. The one of men or the reason, 2. The one of the current water or the progress, 3. The one of the sheep or quietude, 4. The one of the lion that represents strength. 5. The one of the vulture that presides to the rapine. They believe that every caste arriving to government brings in policy the tendency that is his own ".


14.   The destruction of Atlantis was accompanied by an earthquake. YES this zone is very sismic.

15.   After the destruction of Atlantis, the passage of ships was blocked. Obviously I don’t know. But not impossble. (See also the zone of coral reefs around the Dahlack archipelago in front of Adulis, which could be a permanent obstacle for sailers coming by sea).

16.   Elephants were present in Atlantis. YES, of course. See the temple of Elephants in Musawarat es Sofra.

17.   No physically or geologically impossible processes were involved in the destruction of Atlantis. YES. I WHOLLY AGREE.

18.   Hot and cold springs, with mineral deposits, were present in Atlantis.
Presently I don’t know, but not impossible to verify by geologists.
But there was a water sanctuary in the royal enclosure and god Poseidon is in fact Amun symbol of fertility for Kushites and Egyptians.


19.    Atlantis lay on a coastal plain 2000 X 3000 stadia surrounded by mountains falling into the sea. This is a description of East Africa…

20.   Atlantis controlled other states of the period. YES, under the reign of king Taharqa reigning in Memphis, Kus have extended his domination from Khartum to North Lebanon (and according to Strabo as far as Etruria which is Tyrrhenia).

21.   Winds in Atlantis came from the north (only in Northern hemisphere)
yes? YES, I suppose in this part of Africa. To verify.

22.   The rocks in Atlantis were of various colors: black, white, and red. To verify by archeologists and geologists.

23.   There were canals for irrigation in Atlantis. YES, OF COURSE

24.   Every 5th and 6th year, they sacrificed bulls. Yes, burnt bones of cattles were found under the ground of priests houses. See also the rituals of Oromo-Gallas.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 07:08:51 am by Titiea » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2008, 03:14:59 am »

Very well thought out hypothesis, Titiea. I do have some problems with a lot of it, though. The geography in terms of the location I have a problem with, first off. All the ancients pretty much agree that the Pillars were located near Gibraltar.  Really hard to get beyond that one, especially as it also features a pretty accurate description of the Mediterranean.

I can accept your argument for a more recent Atlantis, though Calcidius (Plato's earliest translation) still reaffirms the earlier dates.

I have a lot of difficulty with the downplaying of the war with Atlantis.  Greek mercenaries against the warriors of Nubia?  Atlantis supposedly enslaved all the people within the Med, so I don't quite see that one.

But the most troubling thing is that I don't see how Plato's descriptions fit with anything found in Nubia.  I have to say I think most people looking at this will have the same problem with it as well.  Anything you can point to specifically that resembles Plato's Atlantis in Nubia?
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Titiea
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 08:53:30 am »

Hello Ian,

To demonstrate that Herakles’ Pillars were at the exit of the Red Sea instead of the west exit of Mediterranean Sea would deserve for itself a full dissertation taking in account all the ancient authors who have mentioned them. Unfortunately as I am not a scholar I am not able to comment the texts of ancient authors in their original greek and latin languages. Among these authors, Herodotus is for us the most ancient one who used the words atlantic ocean seeming to refer to the same atlantida nesos as Plato. But surely his text was also based upon some reports of earlier geographers (or logographers) as for example Hecateus from Miletus (550-480 B.C.) But in these very ancient maps, one can remark that Nile had his source on the West of Africa where are our actual Atlas mountains in Marroco. Thus we can deduce that these genuine Atlas mountains were near the source of the Nile, actually south of Khartum, thus far from Gibraltar.
We can also consider that the actual Somalian Cap Gardafui has two little horns, and in antiquity the first one was called “Hesperu ceras” Horn of the West and the second one “Notu ceras “Horn of the South”. Perhaps Herodotus has thought that Herakles Pillars were situate west of the Mediterranean Sea because he read that their location was near the Hesperu Ceras.

Anyway, I will not found my demonstration  concerning the island of Meroe as atlantida nesos upon the proximity of Herakles’ columns. Fortunately, there are numerous other arguments to identify the description of Plato with the description of Meroe by ancient authors and mainly with the findings of archelogists in the site of the actual Begarawiye, province of Butana, district of Keraba, North Sudan. This demonstration I will present in the Athens conference but I have not yet written it.
For today, I want only to present to you the strong resemblance of the Plato’s report with a description of the island Meroe by STRABO XVII, 2, 1-3 : (About Ethiopians) :
“Their largest royal seat is the city of Meroë, of the same name as the island. The shape of the island is said to be that of a shield. Its size is perhaps exaggerated. Its length is about 3000 stadia (555 km), and its breadth 1000 stadia (185 km). It is very mountainous, and contains great forests. The inhabitants are nomads, who are partly hunters and partly farmers. There are also mines of copper, iron, gold, and various kinds of precious stones. It is surrounded on the side of Libya by great hills. of sand, and on that of Arabia by continuous precipices. In the higher parts on the south, it is bounded by the confluence of the rivers Astaboras [modern Atbara], Astapa [the White Nile], and Astasobas [the Blue Nile]. On the north is the continuous course of the Nile to Egypt, with its windings, of which we have spoken before.”

PLATO, Critias, 116e-118e :
“For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries, and the island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life. In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum (iron), was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold. There was an abundance of wood for carpenter's work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals. Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.”…
The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea (here the Nile); it was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape, extending in one direction 3000 stadia, but across the centre inland it was 200 stadia. This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north. The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of industry.”

For ancient maps see : http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/AncientL.html
And mainly Herodotus’ map: http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/109.html

« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 04:13:08 am by Titiea » Report Spam   Logged

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Titiea
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 01:20:50 pm »

The power of Kush :

On about -713, Shabaka rises to the throne. He submits to the rule of Kush the whole valley of the Nile as far to the Delta. The compilers of the Egyptian royal lists regarded him as the founder of the XXVth dynasty. The great policy of the Middle East leaded Koushites to Asia where the outbreak of Assyrians has begun to be felt.
In the same year when Taharqua (689/663) reached the throne, the Assyrian king Sennacherib destroyed Babylon. Taharqua immediately announced his intention to tackle the Assyrian power and is therefore the only pharaoh to be cited by name in the Bible. In the Book of Isaiah, we read: "Then the king of Assyria received a news about Tirhka, king of Ethiopia, one said to him: " Now, he has walked to make you war ". The horror inspired by the Sudanese warriors was confirmed on -669 when Taharka managed to reoccupy Memphis conquered by the Assyrians two years ago.
Although his successor had to flee on -663 pursued by the armies of Assourbanipal who conquered Thebes and put an end to the Kushite dynasty, Taharka remains a big name in the history of ancient Egypt. His cartridges recovered on many monuments from the Delta as far as the fourth cataract, prove that he really controlled a vast Egyptian-Sudanese empire extending over 2500 Km of the Nile valley.
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Mario Dantas
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2008, 08:58:08 am »


http://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/1934/

http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/nubia/mwriting.html

regards,

M

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Titiea
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2008, 04:44:47 am »

Hello Friends,

I would like to put here some slides in jpg format, but I forgot the process. Please help me..

Therese
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2008, 07:25:23 am »

Hi Titiea, are the slides saved on your computer or are they on  a website?
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Titiea
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2008, 09:54:06 am »

They are on my computer and in Photobucket.

Thank you so much for your kind help...
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Titiea
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« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2008, 08:42:48 am »

Here is a detailed report on the royal baths of Meroe with beautiful colored photos :

http://www.dainst.org/index.php?id=2963&sessionLanguage=en
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Mario Dantas
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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2008, 04:04:28 pm »

Dear Titeia,

If the pictures you talked about are on the web, then while you edit your text and eventually you want to insert  images, all you need to do is:

1- click the icon insert image (under the italic icon);

2- The pair of brackets will be something like this :

{img}{/img}

I deliberate changed the brackets otherwise they won't show in the post;

3- Insert the Image Location of your preference (copy image location with the right click of your mouse and insert it between the brackets):

{img}http://www.dainst.org/medien/_bereichbild4.jpg {/img}

hopefully something like this will appear:



Hope this will help! Since none of us is a programmer, Feel free to ask if it doesn't work  :-)

regards,
Mario
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Mario Dantas
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2008, 04:51:15 pm »



 
Amazing link BTW! If the Empire of Kush ruled Egypt, their relationship with Atlantis seems pretty obvious...

Quote
Many questions concerning the complex are still under discussion. The development of the construction, the date, the function of the water in- and outlets, the full decoration programme as well as the most important question, the purpose and idea of the hole building are still not clear.




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Titiea
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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 04:21:42 am »

Thank you Mario, I will try :





Wadi Mukabrab at North and Wadi El Hawad at South could perhaps be considered as forming a third water enclosure protecting the accesses to the plain of Meroe.
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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 10:08:04 am »

Hi Titiea
You've been working hard since we last talked!  Good job.

If you want to post pictures from Photobucket:

Open a reply window here in the forum - (so you have somewhere to put the picture!) 
You can diminish the forum window so it's just a title at the bottom of your screen.  Use the diminish button at the top right hand corner of your screen

Open photobucket - find the picture you want - there will be about 4 different boxes you can click under each picture.  Click on the last box under the picture - then go up to the top of the screen and click on "edit" then "copy"

Enlarge the forum screen that you opened previously - place your cursor in the window, then click on "edit" then "paste"

In your window, you will see an address but when you post, the picture will show.  You can leave Photobucket open in the meantime, in case you want to go back and get another picture.
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