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What time frame did it exist in?

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Question: What time frame did it exist in?
39,000 bc and beyond - 9 (25%)
38,000 to 10,000 bc - 9 (25%)
10,000 to 9000 bc - 5 (13.9%)
8999 to 6000 bc - 4 (11.1%)
5999 to 3000 bc - 2 (5.6%)
2999 to 1000 bc - 3 (8.3%)
1000 to 800 bc - 1 (2.8%)
In Plato's imagination - 2 (5.6%)
Other - 1 (2.8%)
Total Voters: 28

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Author Topic: What time frame did it exist in?  (Read 3501 times)
Chronos
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« on: January 25, 2007, 11:13:46 am »

This seems to be our first attempt at a poll here.
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Majeston
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2007, 08:51:43 pm »

Chronos,
What happened to the option of over 10,000.
That's where I am.......................................  12,000--- 38,000
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Forever, music will remain the universal language of men, angels, and spirits.
Harmony is the speech of Havona.

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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2007, 09:54:18 am »

Yes, probably should have been an option for 'other'.   

I think Plato made the story up, but I also think he may well have been inspired both by real historic events of his own time and by stories he'd heard which in turn may have been based on real prehistoric events dating back right to the end of the last ice age.   It's even possible (IMO) that Solon himself brought one of these ancients stories back with him from Egypt, though not in any way the detailed narrative that Plato relates.

So I would have to say that 'Atlantis' existed in various places at various times, but mainly around the 10,000BC time period and again around the 350-2,000BC time period.

Edit:  I voted 2,999-1,000BC because I think most of the places and events that inspired him occurred around then Smiley 
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Andy
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2007, 05:20:30 am »

A nice moralistic story. that's what it boils down to for me.
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2007, 01:24:20 pm »

This be our first attempt

DEAR  CHRONOS,

 Cry  I have located A. in Ras-ADEN-Crater.  My contention is that the timeframe should be extended to: 1000-800 bc. because none of the above timeframes apply to Plato's Atlantis demise.

ATLANTIS consisted only 250 years inbetween TWO "Tsunami-Floods". which were NOT climate-change related.  The only true dated are: 1075-855 bc . to avoid disgression in THIS Post, i will explain the why & wherefore in another Topic.( but which one is the most feasible?)

In my opinion Plato was member of an autoritarian State that wanted to impose it's form of Government upon others by indeed gradual immersion in its state organization as is always the case with conquerers

However Athens in 366 bc was recently defeated by Sparta /Persia and the Punicians and Plato's company-dinnerparty speech was to be held before crowned heads of Europe to incite a State-coup against his host the King/Tyrant of Syracuse Dionyssos-1 who's mysterious death during an attack of Tomain ceased the Project.  ( which is -traditionally- attributed to Plato's own death in 347 bc.)

Sincerely  Cry "BlueHue" Cry
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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 05:58:46 pm »

Well i chose the 2999 - 1000 BC range  on the logic that the whole story of Atlantis by Plato describes bronze age cultures for the Atlanteans and Athenians , the story does not make the slightest amount of sense as HISTORY if it is placed in the 10th millenium BC...in my opinion  ,

I find it easier to explain away the 9000 years figure that Plato gives us ,,,it's either that ,or discard the literary element to the story and simply be left with a number.

To accept the 9000 years as true is paradoxically, to accept that the story of Atlantis is a fiction .

I am assuming of course ,that where archaeology has led us over the last 200 odd years is basically down the right path .(or is that the garden path?  Smiley  . The 9000 years must be an error or misinterpretation.

So its either 2999 - 1000 BC.... or Plato's imagination .
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 11:11:09 pm »

Over the last 300 years the Europeans have learned to know "History" as a "mere science" - rather than a combination of a declining number of documents, traditions and common folklore. Before that we have had a period of well over 1.000 years; where the subject of history was strongly influenced by - or entirely based on - religious postulates.

When the scientific approach gained ground and the modern Academy arouse - we finally came about to search and study the pre-religious literature that still existed. Retrospect we might even say that when modern (western) philosophy developed into modern science, it was based on not only the historical information  of Herodotos, Homeros and Platon - but also on the philosophy and scientific principles expressed in the old, pre-religious texts from Greek Antiqueity.

As European science progressed - throughout the 19th and 20th centuries - it revealed a picture of the entire Mediterranean and Asian area, that finally established solid proves of an old Antiquety that were considerably more "advanced" than any school-book from the 19th century would even hint. Sir Mortimer Wheeler and the lads of Royal Society completed the excavations of old Egypt, Sumeria and Indus - concluding they were all "advanced cultures" that had grown into different "great civilizations" - during the first decades of the last century. But not before the 1950-ties did their conclusions become "scientifically accepted" and part of the "curriculum" of western  academia.

Before the revolution of modern archeology all history was based on sources linked to oral traditions - from which it had become written material. Thus, at the basis of all Greek pergaments, Egyptian papyrus and Sumerian stelas we have a much older and genuine way of keeping traditions and historical records - based on museum collections and oral recitation.

The development of writing is a subject not yet adequately covered by modern researh, but so far we know that the efficency and rationality of the old writing-methods were strongly limiting the possibility and probability of writing a book - as long as every page have to be created out of a specific quality of blue clay, before it is burnt and stored.

Using calf-skins we find the oldest European documents to reveal a technique of duplication that may indeed indicate a strong connection between the first agriculture and the first production of written dokuments. Developing pergament and papyros could then make significant contributions to the spread and use of writing. Today we know that they collected numberless pages of the old stories, traditions and knowledge - expressing a very scientific approach.

Thus it is fair to say that "rational, scientific thinking" was the mere basis of Greek academies, as well as Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Indian "temple-schools". Today we can even link this period - called "Antiquity" to the spread of Agriculture and Bronze. Moreover - today we may even view the re-discovered houses, buildings, monuments and palaces - as they started to develop already 9.000 to 10.000 years ago.

One may add that modern Geology and space technology have presently revealed that the levels of the world oceans indeed have grown - with some 120-160 metres - at the end of ice-time. Which - they say - ended about 10.000 years ago.

Unfortunately, the old schism between "religion"/"superstition"/"belief" on one side and "science"/"understanding"/"knowledge" on the other hand are still leading many a good scientist somewhat astray when it comes to interpret old sources. Thus modern historians - in their quest to be "scientific" - refuse to look at the old myths as "anything but imagination". Such an attitude is obviously NOT scientific - since the truth about the old myths can only be found by examining all the facts - old ones as well as NEW ones.

Since the recent conclusions from modern Geology, Glaciology, Hydrology and marine Biology all add up to conclude a "sudden and substantial rise" in the worlds oceans of more than 120 metres - "between 10.000 and 13.000 years ago" - there are no scientific reasons left to dismiss the many flood-stories.

Which leads us to the first rock-solid proof of a certain connection between Myth and History. Wheter it is Mayan, Aztec, Greek/Egyptian, Sumerian or Indian myths - they all link in to the world-wide legend about "The great flood". Whether Noah was landing on Arafat is still to be seen - but we already know for a certain fact that the world-wide flood is based on the real story. The same conclusion will then hit Plato's Atlantis - as well.

There is a major difference though, between the Egyptian/Greek and the Arab/Hebrew legend. While the bible-story says that ONLY Noa and Sara survived - Platon's legend says that ONLY the "Atlanteans" were suffering from the flood.   

Combine these facts with the rest of what is today known about the surprising age and the tremendous beauty of the first great palaces in the Mediterranean area - and we have to stretch back to the period of the great flood to fine a time-line that is old enough to allow the first steps of the agricultural scociety - established some 9.000 years ago - to develop into the "world-wide" culture we see spreading during the "neolithic revolution".

Researching the issue of Atlantis in a scientific way and manner can only lead to scientific explanations of the history we already know. Obviously. Thus it may help to know that Solon, Critias and Plato was neither devoted priests nor re-born politicians, but solid philosophers and hard-working "Keepers of Knowledge". Today we may add modern sources of information and say that "A Atlantean culture" did spread around the Mediterranean already 9.000 years ago.

The structure and the culture they spread can be recognized in ALL the old agricultural civilizations of Antiquity.  At some later point - as many of these cultures were in their prime - they got invaded, sacked, burned and destroyed. Even to the point of ethnicide. Thus we may adress the Troyan wars - once again - to find the big change in the Mediterranean culture, where the entire area experienced that a millennial old, monumental culture were invaded, destroyed and overtaken. The archaeologists call this the "period of the burnt cities", that reached the Greek Mesopotamia already 1.800 BC. 600 years later the "wave of war" reached the Mediterranean Greece, introducing "The Dark Ages" of Greek and Egyptian antiquity (1.200 B.C to 400 B.C.).

What came out of the darknes was the fragment of the old culture was Solon, Plato and Aristotel - and the question of whether a "pre-dark-age-culture" really had existed. Today we do not have to discuss that question anymore. The spread of agriculture, monumental structures, art, biology, chemistry and maths - are well documented today. Along with the maps of the first "human migrations" it concludes that a period of "Classic Antiquity" did exist in the Mediterranean and Eurasia - that coincide with Plato's Atlantis in both time and space, as well as form and culture.

Since the birth of Bronze Age goes back to the time of Agriculture, it is impossible to form a leading, initial culture - based on an agriculture and a monumental culture that sailed the oceans, produced ceramics and metals and established continental trade-routes - in time to get it spread into Harappa, Ur, Catal Huyk and Knossos. Not to forget Asturia, Stonehenge, Aztlant and  Titicaca.

If we really consider Atlantis to have been existing, these are all remains from the Atlantean culture. Which excludes any beginning later than the fully developed city-structure of Catal Huyk, some 9.000 years old.


 


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Gens Una Sumus
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 12:35:12 am »

Hi Boreas

I dont know if this is the appropriate spot for the argument ,but what the hell ,i just thought maybe this belonged in 'Atlantis in the New Age' or maybe just 'Atlantis'  .

You seem to have very specific beliefs concerning Atlantis ,maybe u have info not available to me ,in which case i would love to hear it . It's just that i have followed Atlantis research for a number of years now ,and have yet to see any good reason for considering Atlantis to be the 'first' civilisation,which is what u seem to be suggesting. i have read the dialogues of Plato that concern Atlantis many times and they do not say that Atlantis introduced civilisation to other peoples.Plato does not say that Atlantis was the first civilisation either.All we can gather from Plato is that Atlantis was one of the existing civilisations contemporary with Egypt and Bronze Age Greece . 
   9000 was the sum of years (roughly) that had passed between the war of Atlantis and 'ATHENS' and the time of Solon. Please tell me how that translates to Atlantis being some sort of mother culture.I've already explained below my logic for dismissing the 9000 figure.
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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 02:06:40 am »

The descriptions from Critias are the first and only story known from the Greek-Roman culture that describe a "world-wide" "empire".

If we are to translate the gross description of Atlantis -as given by Plato - we have to address the first cultures known to produce Bronze. Just the way you do. My point is simply that - according to recent the discoveries and scientific progress - the basis of the earliest Bronze-age grew out of the very populations that had - and still continued to - spread agriculture.

Thanks to modern genetics and dating we are about to get substantial knowledge about the periods and places where both agriculture and bronze-culture spread. Thus we have a basis for knowledge about how "civilization" - as we recognize it - spread, around the globe. Since the monuments of the Inkas and the Indus-valley are (grossly) contemporary to the Egyptian, we would have to adress a common, "co-creative", source of origin.

If ANYTHING of Plato is to be relied on, we would have to compare his "Atlantis" with the growth of  a "higher civilization" - seen from Greece as of 2.500 years BP. The realities described by contemporary archeology, geology and  biology are all concluding that the seeds of the Mediterranean civilization - as it appeared in the monuments of the Cretan agriculturalists, sailors and traders - already 6.000 years ago.

Today we may follow the paths of the Cretan bull back to the very first agriculturalists - that arrived in Catal Hüyk and Ethiopia already 9.000 years old. The same oxen are found - in stone carvings and paintings - plowing also in Mesopotamia, Etruria and Spain - and all along the "Atlantean" coast, up to central Scandinavia.

Recent DNA-results from Italian cattle concluded that the Italian stocks once have arrived by ships. Most interesting, since archaeological results have already linked the growth of agriculture to the same areas/populations that already had developed sea-faring. From which came the technique of making bronze - and then producing and distributing the loads of it. To explain the cause and consequence of "Bronze Age"  - as a historical matter of fact - you need a culture that already had developed Agriculture, Ceramics, Shipping (incl. Ship-building, Sailing, Navigation, Geography...) and Trade. What ACTUALLY spread from all around the globe, from the delta of Ganges to the shores of Panama - in the very same period, 7.000 - 9.000 years ago.

The growth, prosperity and destruction of this culture did exist - and all the three stages of this process have been significantly proven. Starting 9.000 BP and ending before 3.000 BP - this was the historical reality that preceded Critias by some 5-700 years. Later it became interpreted by Timaeus, kept by Solon and re-written (copied?) by Plato. Consequently there was a historical reality behind Plato's legendary story - that started MORE than 9.000 years ago. Whatever Solon might have said - or not - we are still left with the "shocking" fact that Plato's legendary time-line is astonishingly close to the realities of modern science.     

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Gens Una Sumus
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2007, 09:37:24 am »

hmmm  ,i still don't see a connection between Atlantis and the origin of agriculture  ,nevermind .
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 02:43:58 pm »

hmmm  ,I still don't see a connection between Atlantis and the origin of agriculture  ,nevermind .

ATLANTIS TIMEFRAME ?

As I was saying earlier 1075-855 bc  but this was not in the Polls( So nobody bothered!) Cry - Cry - Cry .
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( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 11:25:47 pm »

Need a "dont know" option for the honest among us. Smiley  Otherwise, Plato's imagination it is.
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 08:02:31 am »

hmmm  ,i still don't see a connection between Atlantis and the origin of agriculture 

SORRY for answering to several Posts simultaneously:

POSEIDON was the God of Agriculture but was originally a thermal Spring in ADEN(=EDEN=Paradise)

The  Smiley  18th Dyn.PHARAOH  AHMOSE,  occupied Aden and restyled himself Poseidon god of Agricultrure because of that Thermal Spring and Löss soil in the Mudvolcano Caldeira!

His Brother Kamose became restless and jeallous because Thot had given him only desert( Melam-Kemt.)and chased Ahmose from his little Paradise

the FOUR Pillars of Chronos were then changed into just TWO pillars of Hercules

Pillars is Pylons thus Egyptian Temples by extention, the TWO secondary volcanoes of Aden were renamed BO-ACHS and JACH-SIN and the greeks living in ADEN were renamed IO-Dans and IO-Mans or Javans from Io-Nia( Samaria/Jemen.)

The Misconception of Atlantis as an Island came from the Roman mistranslation for a greek promotory: ACH-ile-EOS which means washed by the World-Ocean(= Oikumene) only from TWO sides! thus a Promotory!

By extention: Atlantis was an island within an island thus an Atoll, by an istmus connected to the Mainland of South-Arabia this Istmus would be that rectangular Plain where the ( extinct-arabian-)Elephants roamed.

Any washed-up ( Coastal/Sea-)Plain is called in Technical terms or topographical Jargon a TOMBOLA or SEFELAH!  e.g. the whole Coast of west Somalia!

The Thebes that Cadmus (= Pharaoh Kamose( 1085-1050 bc.)revised Chronology!)founded was initially in Upper Egypt, it( Sheba!) was the OLD name for MEROWË which was renamed in 525 bc. by persian King Cambysos after his early death of his crownprince- son Meroë(or:Merv!)

Later on Cadmus went to Boetia in Greece( Then called Achaia-nea)and there founded another Thebes(= Sheba!)

The "Queen-of-Sheba" came from Ethiopia/Napata/Nubia  because Kamose was her great grandfather.
She on her turn founded 2 other Thebes or "Shebas": Shabwa  & Shebam in Hadramaut
History erroneously claims that she came from these Hadramaut"Thebeses" whilst she only colonized there.( 1003-950 bc.)

Myrina is an Amazone Queen, the grandmother of queen Hatsepsut.) from Libia but she was also the daughter of Great-King(= megassar:) Megareus who violated her , that's why she went away on a conquest spree, and founded Smyrna in Turkey where she introduced Frankincense trees from Hyria/Hesperia( from:Hadramaut.)

They came not from the roman LYBIA -INTERIOR but from the greek Lybia-sub-sive AEGYPTO in Erytraea or French Somalia.

The Amazones from Themskrian Scythia,  were in the Service of the Assyrians when they attaqued Troy in 861-860 bc( Revised-Chronology)in the last year of King Assurnasirpal-2( 878-859 bc.)

The original egyptian Amazones were conscripted men who wore Nubian or Kushite stuffed Wigs as helmets and Battledresses of stuffed linnen as the Greeks of Alexander's time later did, from a distance they resemble(d) women.

As for the precise location of Atlantis: Read my Subscript!

Sincerely: " BlueHue CryCryCry

« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 08:11:42 am by BlueHue » Report Spam   Logged

( Blue's)THEORY, locating"original" Atlantis( in Aden-Yemen.)
1: ATLANTIS =Fake=Latin name, original Greek: ATHE(=a Region in Aden)
2: Atlantic-OCEAN=Greek: RIVER-of-Atlas+also" Known "World-OCEAN(=Red-Sea)
3: Greek-obsolete-Numeral 'X' caused Plato's Atlantisdate:9000=900
Chronos
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 09:35:48 pm »

I have edited the poll, offering the choices that Majesyon. Essan and Bluehue suggested. In addition to that, I have also allowed people to change their vote should they wish to vote for a choice more suitable.  Hope that helps.
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« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 09:19:11 am »

!!!!!  What have u done to the poll ?!!!   it's been massacred .!     Geez ,,

We had a neat little contest going between  the 10000 - 9000  and the 2999 - 1000  groups.

*sigh*  oh well ,nothing lasts forever .
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