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the A.R.E.'s Investigations into the Atlantic

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Author Topic: the A.R.E.'s Investigations into the Atlantic  (Read 12095 times)
Desiree
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2007, 03:33:30 am »

Hi Greg,

I've read Gateway to Atlantis, too, and it's a very good book. He pulls a lot of the Atlantis information together very well.


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Bahama Bank and Caribbean

Not all geologists deny the possibility of a sunken island in Central America. After the Charles Berlitz book The Mystery of Atlantis, a Canadian Hungarian geologist-topographer's book was published, entitled Atlantis: The Seven Seals. The author, Z.A. Simon, called the attention to these controversies. He included some supporting conclusions of Dr. J. Manson Valentine, M. Dmitri Ribikoff, E. Umland and C. Umland, Robert B. Stacy-Judd, Dr. David Zink, John P. Cohane, Peter Tompkins, Pino Turolla, Captain Alexander, Francis Hitching, James Bailey, Dr. C.J. Cazeau, Dr. S.D. Scott, Brad Steiger and William R. Fix.

The June 1981 edition of Marine Geology shows some radiocarbon dates on mangrove peat, based on the estimate of Broecker and Kulp, listing dates between 5590 and 3680 BC, with connection of the gradual sinking of the Florida­Bimini region. Most recently the rate of the sea level's rise has slowed to 4.5 in (114 mm) per century. Prior to that time it was one foot per century. Near Andros Island, underwater explorer Jacques Cousteau found a huge submerged cave 165 ft (50 m) beneath the surface. There are stalactites and stalagmites in it, that can be formed in the open air only. Marine sediments on the walls of the grotto enabled scientists to estimate its submersion around or after 10,000 BC. The submarine topography of the Bahamian region shown in the huge Russian Atlas Mira by detailed isobaths, catches the attention of a topographer. The sea floor on the northern side of Cuba, Haiti and Puerto Rico indicates a definite system of submerged valleys of ancient rivers, combined with sunken mountain ranges. The "Tongue of the Ocean" at Andros Island is undoubtedly an underwater ravine caused by terrible tectonic forces, surrounded by almost vertical walls, as a "memento" of the catastrophe. The main problem with this theory is that Atlantis was supposed to have submerged rapidly, following an earthquake.

Z.A. Simon offers an "accurate" map of Plato's rectangular island with its given dimensions as 2,000 by 3,000 stadia, overlaying its outline on the suspected ancient irregular shoreline of that traditional island in the Bahamas region. (An Attic stadium corresponds to 177.6 m)
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http://www.crystalinks.com/atlantislocations.html

Have you found a catastrophe in this area that may have been the basis for the Atlantis disaster, and, if so, what date was it?

I've also been looking around the Internet and can't find anything on the myths of the Bahamas, other than those about Atlantis and the Fountain of Youth being there! Do they have similar legends like the Guanches of once having come from a sunken homeland?
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2007, 03:34:25 am »

Arte...:

The closest we've gotten to Cuba is Cay Sal earlier this month, 24-miles away. Andrew went to Cuba briefly while writing his book. The Cuban "site" (the focus of this thread) is in 2100-feet of water at extreme SW Cuba. We have no plans to investigate it even when the politics change. Andrew has seen all the film taken of it as well as all the photos. Only a few moments of film and a few photos have been released to the public. Andrew signed a "Non disclosure" agreement regarding what he saw, so that's about it. Personally, I think it's dumped concrete.

Two years ago, when he was last here (in the US), we looked at a satellite image I obtained of Cuba. It was of the Zapata Peninsula. We plan on investigating an area there when the political situation allows my wife and I to go. Of course lots of Americans go there illegally all the time, but I won't do that.

There is a 7-mile diameter (now underwater) circular island there that has ancient canals running to it from the north. The north has a semi-circular mountain range with a river at its base. It's a hunch, that's all.

Based on the last finds at Bimini, ARE has totally committed to Bimini research now--this is a formal change. Their ultimate goal is to find the temple housing the Hall of Records. We (my wife and I) will not be on those expeditions. We need to stay independent, but support ARE efforts. There are no plans at all in the ARE for Cuba research.

Des: The carbon dates for Bimini are all flawed, based on bulk dating. The Yucchi Indian tribe has a legend of coming from a large island (identifed as Andros) after a disaster with rising waters struck. The problem with the Bahamas' myths relates to mainstream archaeology. Supposdly no one whatsoever was in the Bahamas until AD 500- AD 1000. Then, they assert, small groups of Arawak's in canoes visited. In reality, there has been very little archaeological work done in the Bahamas. American archaeologists see it as a pariah.

The "Carolina Bays Event" is the destruction event we believe wiped out the culture in the Bahamas, Florida, and other Carribean islands circa 9500 BC. This was detailed in Gateway to Atlantis and our last two books.

Best,
Greg
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2007, 03:36:13 am »

Artemis:

quote:
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The closest we've gotten to Cuba is Cay Sal earlier this month, 24-miles away. Andrew went to Cuba briefly while writing his book. The Cuban "site" (the focus of this thread) is in 2100-feet of water at extreme SW Cuba. We have no plans to investigate it even when the politics change. Andrew has seen all the film taken of it as well as all the photos. Only a few moments of film and a few photos have been released to the public. Andrew signed a "Non disclosure" agreement regarding what he saw, so that's about it. Personally, I think it's dumped concrete.
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I always found it odd that Andrew Collins has never been very excited about the Cuban find even though his book places Cuba in Atlantis. Still Weinberg and Zelitzky are pretty certain it's of Mayan design. I read that George Erikson plans to meet with them shortly for another special, I wonder what he'll have to say about it..?


quote:
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Two years ago, when he was last here (in the US), we looked at a satellite image I obtained of Cuba. It was of the Zapata Peninsula. We plan on investigating an area there when the political situation allows my wife and I to go. Of course lots of Americans go there illegally all the time, but I won't do that.

There is a 7-mile diameter (now underwater) circular island there that has ancient canals running to it from the north. The north has a semi-circular mountain range with a river at its base. It's a hunch, that's all.
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Sounds like a good hunch. In fact it sounds like a description the capital city of Plato's Atlantis! Hope the situation there changes soon.
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2007, 03:36:40 am »

Greg, do any of these images have anything to do with what you've found?
http://www.satellitediscoveries.com/discoveries/landscape_patterns/pattern_9.html
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2007, 03:37:28 am »

Hi Greg, thanks for info on the Yuchi. I did some checking and came up with this:


quote:
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The Yuchi Creation Story

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Before the beginning, water was everywhere. But no people, animals, or earth were visible.

There were birds, however, who held a council to decide if it might be best to have all land or all water. "Let us have land, so we can have more food," said some of the birds. Others said, "Let's have all water, because we like it this way."

Subsequently, they appointed Eagle as their Chief who was to decide one way or the other. Eagle decided upon land and asked, "Who will go and search for land?"

Dove volunteered first and flew away. In four days he completed his hunt and returned, reporting, "I could not find land anywhere."

Crawfish came swimming along and was asked by the council to help search for land. He disappeared under the water for four days. When he arose to the surface again, he held some dirt in his claws. He had found some land deep in the water.

Crawfish made a ball of the dirt and handed it to Chief Eagle, who then flew away with it. Four days later he returned and said to the council, "Now there is land, an island has been formed-- follow me!"

The whole bird colony flew after Eagle to see the new land, though it was a very small island. Gradually, the land began to grow larger and larger as the water became lower and lower. More islands appeared and these grew together, creating larger islands into one earth.

Tuskegee Indians say they were chosen by the Great Spirit to be the first people to live upon the new earth, a long, long time ago.
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http://www.drlamay.com/creation_story_yuchi.htm

Other Native American stories are simnilar, they begin with a huge flood, the finding a homeland. "No archaelogical work on Bimini," no theories on who built the fish and seahorse mounds there then?
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2007, 03:38:55 am »

Arte...:

Andrew was and remains intrigued by the Cuba find and announcement, but he's cautious and meticulous -- and is waiting for more research. People have jumped on the "Cuba ruins" bandwagon, but the term "ruins" is premature. It's an anomaly so far. I hope it turns out to be ruins, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I've seen the images of the underwater site purported to be Mayan...but it takes imagination--I prefer to wait and see what develops.

George may support the Cuban site as a sunken Maya site. It is possible, of course, and makes sense. The National Geographic Channel is doing another Atlantis show and I know they have worked with George. On an earlier National Geographic documentary on Atlantis they deliberately eliminated any good footage from Bimini and Andros, said elephants never lived in the Americas, that there were no disasters in the Americas between 10,000 BC--900 BC, that there were no red or black rocks in the Bahamas or Cuba, and held to the "official" National Geographic position on Atlantis: that it was a myth stimulated by Thera. They say they want to sort of open up the possibilities in their new show, but I doubt it. Lora and I have declined participating on their show, so has Andrew Collins, and so has the ARE. NatG is blatently biased and that does not seem likely to change. I hope they treat George well, because his idea certainly links to the ideas we support.

Regarding the satellite "image" of Cuba, no, it's not Zapata. Zapata is close to the Bay of Pigs.

Des: The Bimini Mounds "look like effigy mounds." They were actually first discovered by ARE members during flyovers. But they are unverified as human-made mounds. One archaeologist did a core into one of the mounds but found noting to verify it as a mound. (That was her goal.) I haven't been to them, when we have been at Bimini there were just too many other things we needed to do. I think they are mounds, built by the same Moundbuilders who made effigy mounds in North America. But what has to be done to prove it hasn't been done. The big problem there is one that many people don't seem to understand. Some people argue that you have to verify sites on land. Bimini has been swept by tidal surges so many times in the past that anything on the surface was just swept away...again and again. This past hurricane season, a 20-foot tidal surge completely destroyed the 2-story motel where we have stayed at South Bimini. The news reported next to nothing from the Bahamas, but Grand Bahama was decimated and most of South Bimini was too. Other than the sole core made at a Bimini mound, the only other things that have been done on land there are a few surface examinations by archaeologist Bil Donato. These turned up some things that suggest ancient occupation.
Greg


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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2007, 03:39:45 am »

Neko:

I'm not sure it's prejudice. From the early 1980s to the mid-1990s I wrote a lot about Native American beliefs and surprisingly found out I'm part Native American (Seneca). Lots of people are, but probably don't know it. A lot of information from American tribes has been lost, destroyed by semi-official US government policies enforced in the 1800s and early 1900s: "the only good Indian is a dead one, and we need to make all of them good."

Many of the native stories or fables are difficult to interpret--that's one difficulty. The big problem that lasted until recently is that what the native Americans said about their origins didn't match what the archaeological theory stated as fact. For example, the Hopi speak of coming from a land far to the south and west, hopping from island to island. South Pacific migrations were not confirmed until genetic research in the late 1990s, but most archaeologists still didn't accept it, it was just too unbelieveable for them. Nor did archaeologists accept what the natives of Hawaii stated about their origins—which have now been shown to be true.

Prejudice exists, sure, but verbal accounts are viewed by archaeology as, well-- not evidence, but just tales. Gradually, many of the most intriguing and seemingly impossible migration tales are being validated.

Archaeology has tried to present itself as a hard science, like elementary physics, for example. They find certain artifacts in certain contexts and see that as science. But then they use guesswork veiled as science. This means that from a few pieces of pottery and a carbon date they'll generate a history and a civilization. As long as the history they confabulate matches what the mainstream currently accepts as fact, no one in the field objects. That's a big flaw. Their methods and preconceived notions are the big problem. The best example I can give relates to Clovis. Because Clovis was the first civilization in the Americas (at least from 1937 to 1997 according to mainstream archaeology beliefs during that time) no one dug beneath Clovis artifact layers when they were encountered. "Why did further," they reasoned? "There can't be anything else there!" It is a belief-driven field masquarading as science. Science techniques are used, but the beliefs drive the system. Of course, you can still see it as prejudice if you wish.

Greg
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« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2007, 12:26:52 am »

Hi Greg, I heard that the hurricanes struck ner Bimini last year. You can only imagine how much damaged hurricanes have done to the findings after hitting there for thousands of years! Who knows what they might have washed away?

As for scientists not believing the Native American folklore, I think you see that problem all over the world. The Egyptians date their culture back much older, too, than science gives it credit for. It's funny that Cayce and Egyptian mythology coincide with each other, but Egyptology does not.
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« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2007, 12:28:01 am »

Neko:

"but didn't the Clovis also enter North America through the Mississippi Delta, therefore they're not of Asian blood?"

Definite human remains of "Clovis culture" people haven't been found--it is a culture and civilization confabulated by archaeologists from a type of "point"--a spearpoint. But the current thinking is that the Clovis people actually did enter from Asia around 9500 BC across Beringia. They were apparently the mtDNA haplogroups A, C, & D. The genetic information leads me to believe that Clovis group came from Asia, although the actual origin is a bit unclear. And yes, the Solutrean culture of Europe was virtually identical, but several thousand years before Clovis. There's more to this story but it's making US archaeologists nervous. The most accepted theories of American archaeology--cherished beliefs--have been shattered since 1997.

The "Mound Builder" culture has been thought to come from Central America (or rather influenced by Central America) circa 1500 BC with, until 1997, the first mounds at Poverty Point, Louisiana. (Moving up the Mississipi Valley to the Ohio Valley.) In 1997, the "oldest known" US mounds were found at Monroe, Louisiana at a place caled Watson Brake. It is a 22-acre circular enclosure with 11 mounds dated to 3400 BC. Then these people just disappeared. Mound building started again at Poverty Point circa 1500 BC. During the time between 3400 BC and 1500 BC, many mounds (strange, linear shapes) were made along Florida's coastlines. It's an interesting mystery and clearly there are a lot of gaps and holes in the current thinking.

The Mandans were encountered by Lewis and Clark in the far North. In the past year genetic testing has confirmed that the Norse blended with North American Indian tribes. It's possible that the Mandans were somehow related to them. A similar tribe was found in Tennessee.

Arte: Andrew remains firm in the belief in Cuba as I do too. He hopes that the underwater site off SW Cuba turns out to be ruins, as I do. But the area between Zapata and the Isle of Pines is our focal point. We have seen many of the same pics from the SW Cuba site, but I have not seen all the underwater film, just a few clips of it, the same ones released to documentaries. Andrew viewed all their film.

The best images of Zapata are on "Google Earth" and several good ones are on Nasa's satellite image sites. But in all cases you have to zero in on Zapata. The site is not a secret, we put it in our 2003 book as well as our new one. I'd actually love it is someone else checked out the site because it's going to be difficult. The area is a massive swamp infested with saltwater crocs and God-knows-what-else. It'll take a concerted effort with some specialized equipment. Zapata is just to the "left" (or west) of the Bay of Pigs. It is a bird watcher's paradise.

The last time we were at Andros was May 05. The 2004-05 hurricane season hit the area 3 times. Some areas were completely covered in sand, others were uncovered. Bill Donato was the first archaeologist to view it. He agrees that it was a breakwater enclosing a harbor.

Greg
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« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2007, 12:28:57 am »

Neko: Greg, have you heard of haplogroup X DNA? It's found on both sides of the Atlantic and they took mtDNA from the Guanches'mummies and matched them up with the mtDNA of the Iroquois, near perfect match
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« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2007, 12:29:41 am »

Artemis:  Alright, Greg, I picked up your book the "A.R.E.'s Search fot Atlantis and saw the satellite image you have printed in there of the circular island. Very interesting. Why does Andrew choose the Isle of Youth over Zapats, though? In Zapata, there is a clear circle like Plato's circular sland.

If Andrew viewed the whole film of the Cuban anomalies, did he share with you whether he thinks it's related to Atlantis or the Mayans, or if he even believes it to be a city at all..?
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« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2007, 12:30:26 am »

Neko:

mtDNA Haplogroup X. Yes, I think I've heard of it. As I recall, in 1998 I wrote a book chapter on it linking it to Atlantis. From that time to the present, I've written updates on it in several books, various articles, and in documentaries. Our newest book ("Edgar Cayce's Atlantis"), which came out this month, has the most recent update on Haplogroup X research--as well as most of the 41 other major Haplogroups. We assert that Haplogroup X originated on Atlantis making its first migration circa 50,000 BC. There were three other major movements of Haplogroup X, leading to haplotypes X1 and X2. X1 and X2 developed in 28,000-22,000 BC and 10,000 BC. In 3000 BC-1500 BC another X migration went from Central America (probably Yucatan) up the Mississippi River Valley to the Ohio River Valley, just before the Adena Mound Builders emerged.

Arte: Andrew initially pinpointed the Isle of Youth in "Gateway to Atlantis," about 1.5 years before Zelitsky announced her finds at Cuba. Andrew now agrees that Zapata is a likely site. Despite whatever optomistic tone I may have, it's important to keep in mind that all of this speculation is guesswork based on slim possibilities. (Of course, such a statement certainly allows a lot of wiggle room.)

While Andrew saw all the film and all the photos from the SW Cuba site, I can't tell you what he thinks about it.

I will say that he is in complete agreement that we have found the definitive evidence of an ancient maritime culture at Bimini, Andros, and Cay Sal.

There are a lot of details about Zapata that parallel Plato's specifics...as well as Cayce's description of an Atlantis City off the waters of "Parfa." Canals, mountains, a south orientation, a massive plain, and the circular island comprising the Center City are all there along with the weather described by Plato. It's compelling...but remains a slim possibility.

Greg
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« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2007, 12:30:58 am »

Hi Greg, do you believe all the details of Atlantis supplied by Cayce? If I'm remembering the readings correctly, he makes Atlantis a huge super-continent that stretches something like from Spain to the Bahamas (I may be wrong, I can't remember the exact words). Of course, science will tell you that one never existed there in the Atlantic Ocean, much as we would like to believe one was there.

Of course, maybe both Plato and Cayce are talking about the size of the empire, not the continent..?


quote:
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There are a lot of details about Zapata that parallel Plato's specifics...as well as Cayce's description of an Atlantis City off the waters of "Parfa." Canals, mountains, a south orientation, a massive plain, and the circular island comprising the Center City are all there along with the weather described by Plato. It's compelling...but remains a slim possibility.
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Sounds very cool. But that area would be a lot smaller than the one described by either Plato or Cayce, right..?
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« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2007, 12:31:47 am »

Des:

"Do I believe Cayce's details about Atlantis?"

Well, no, I don't. But I don't disbelieve them either. I prefer to test them, as we did in our assessments of Cayce's Mound Builder statements and his history of South America. A vast majority of details presented by Cayce about the ancient history of these two areas is clearly accurate. The unexpected accuracy of Cayce's readings in these two areas is one thing that led us to enter the more controversial fray regarding Atlantis.

Cayce related that Atlantis--before the first destruction circa 50,000 BC) stretched from Gibraltar to the Gulf of Mexico. Some people have interpreted Cayce as meaning that it was a single massive landmass. I don't share that interpretation, basically because of four reasons: 1) Cayce did not flatly state it was a single landmass; 2) There is not a shred of scientific support for it; 3) Cayce detailed that after 50,000 BC, what remained of Atlantis was 5 large islands; 4) Many others, including Andrew C., have shown that Atlantis was an empire of islands and land—an area of political and geographical influence.

Regarding the size of some areas, like Cuba, as Atlantis, Andrew Collins has shown Cuba matches Plato's description well. Keep in mind that Plato gave two seemingly contradictory size assessments of Atlantis: one was the size of a "continent"--the other was detailed as an island about 552 km by 368 km. Like Andrew, I believe the statement about Atlantis as a continent refers to the Empire and its geographical extent. Other details related by Plato make it clear there were many islands in the Empire. But the main island, containing the Center City, generally fits two areas: 1) Cuba, and; 2) The Great Bahama Bank which includes Bimini and Andros.

What has to be kept in mind regarding what Cayce said about Atlantis, is that he spoke of three different time periods of Atlantis with each time period created by destructions that altered the makeup of Atlantis. The first was the pre-50,000 BC destruction when the empire stretched from Gibraltar to the Gulf of Mexico. Immediately after the 50,000 BC destruction there were 5 large islands left with many other small ones. Another long-lasting destruction occurred starting in 28,000 BC and ended in 22,000 BC after which there were three large islands left with many small island fragments. With the circa 10,000 BC destruction, the cities of Atlantis (on coastlines) and low-lying islands were destroyed and submerged. On the other hand, Plato generally only gave a history on the 10,000 BC events.

Greg
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« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2007, 12:32:46 am »

Docyabut: Greg, Cayce was a psychic who in alter states could see the past, present and the future in the now. What ever Atlantis meant by Plato`s difinition is what Cayce was seeing, history of the seas and the oceans. The 5 large islands left cound have been the continents. As to the BC`s ,Cayce counted in light years as in reading 364-4-Al,2/16/32.
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