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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean

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dhill757
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« Reply #300 on: December 27, 2008, 11:26:25 pm »

The statue strengthens my opinion that the islands were not only
accidentally visited by the Phoenicians or the Carthaginians but that they
had already settled there; for you cannot assume that a ship determined
either for trade or for discovery had the whole statue already on board.
You must rather conclude that they arrived there on one vehicle or several
ones, during one voyage or several ones, that the crew liked the land,
that they setteld there, established a municipality, kept up the
connection to their home, and that they achieved a wealth which allowed
them to build the mentioned monument.

It is also possible that the Carthaginians, whose eagerness in trade and
navigation is famous, took an expedition to the west from this island and
that the statue pointing to the west referred to that expedition. Storms,
earthquakes and volcanic eruptions which caused immense damage could also have been the cause for the emigration of the citizens who then erected the monument with the reference to the west in order to show which way
they left. Maybe they knew of any land there. Several speculations and
opinions can be expressed in favour and against, but it seems to be
sufficiently sure that the islands were visited by the ancients. Whether
coincidence or intention was the cause cannot be answered.

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dhill757
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« Reply #301 on: December 27, 2008, 11:27:06 pm »

Now discussion of the source by Hennig, p. 145, excerpt:

(...)

A clarification by the Munich numismatologist Prof. Bernhart, to whom the issue unknown until then was presented for a final decision by means of my explanations through my eager colleague Prof. Stechow-Munich, puts an end to the whole discussion. He let, through Stechow's mediation, the
following be reported to me:

"The doubt expressed by some people whether Father Flore was not
cheated by a crook, that the coins in fact did actually not come from the
Azores, was completely unthinkable; the discovery was c e r t a i n l y a
u t h e n t i c, i. e. it came from the Carthaginians. Simply because, at
that time, even the cleverest swindler was not able to put together such
an excellent series of Carthaginian coins from such a narrow period of
time (330-320 BC) correctly. In specialist circles, the Carthaginian and
Cyrenian coins were by far not known well enough, and the numasmatic
science was by far not experienced enough so that it was not even possible
to put together (for instance from pieces found in North Africa or Spain)
a set like that one, which was from such a narrow period of time. If
someone had wanted to create such a fraud at that time, he would have, in
the best case, put together coins from several different centuries; at
that time, no one would probably have noticed the fraud."

This authoritative expert opinion was announced by me in 1937. It is
probably final now. I have therefore spoken of a "numismatic final word"
and drawn the conclusion:

"The discovery of Corvo is proven to be authentic and therefore
the discovery of the Azores by the Carthaginians in late 4th century BC is
finally secured."

In fact, since 1937, under the weight of Bernhart's proofs, no one,
according to my knowledge, ever doubted again that the coins of Corvo
could have been brought to the location of the finding by the
Carthaginians themselves and that it must be an authentic depot finding.


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dhill757
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« Reply #302 on: December 27, 2008, 11:27:34 pm »

(...)
--------------------

Further on, Hennig accepts the visitation of the Azores by the
Carthaginians, but he believes: "It is very probable that their visit to
the Azores was quite involuntary." He means that a ship was driven there
by a storm. He completely ignores the statement of the source about the
location of the finding: "the foundation of a destroyed stone building on
the beach of the island of Corvo exposed by the sea", according to which
the clay jug with the coins was intentionally buried and not the leftover
of a wreck.

The stone building must have been from ancient times, otherwise the jug
would already have been discovered when the foundation was built.
These
circumstances make a repeated visitation of the Azores probable, otherwise
neither money nor buildings would have been left behind.

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dhill757
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« Reply #303 on: December 27, 2008, 11:27:55 pm »

Hennig regards the horseman's statue as a legend and refers to stories
about the "picture columns of Hercules" and cites Arabian sources about
horseman's statues on islands in the Atlantic. He belives that the report
in the Portuguese History was fed by such legends. He does not even take
into consideration that such legends could come from ancient reports.

A very intersting part in the report regarding the horseman's statue is
that it is supposed to have "stood on a stone pedestal into which unknown
letters were carved everywhere". This is actually a clue to a Phoenician
origin! All other alphabets of that time, even the Arabic, Gothic and
Hebrew ones, were known to the Portuguese, although they perhaps could not read them. But they could not know Phoenician letters, that was the only
script that had died out more than 1000 years ago.

And there is another clue to this, Hennig, p. 146, writes: "Allegedly,
together with the coins of Corvo, mysterious writings in an unknown
language were found, which governor Pedro d'Afonseca is to have reproduced
in wax [Source: Mees, J.: Historie de la decouverte des Iles Acores, Gent
1901, p.25]. But they are, just like the reproduction, unfortunately
missing, and it is not determinable anymore what that was all about."
Hennig confuses language and writing here. The wax reproductions were
necessary to secure the letters, otherwise the writings could also have
been copied through handwriting.

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dhill757
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« Reply #304 on: December 27, 2008, 11:28:10 pm »

These circumstances exclusively advocate a Phoenician/Carthaginian
discovery of the Azores and at least a temporary installation of a small
settlement (stone buildings) there. As a stopover from and to America it
would have been a perfect place for the support and maintenance of ships.
The finding report of the coins also hints why no traces of it are found today. In 1749, the foundation of the stone building was exposed by the sea during a storm. It was therefore near the beach. It has certainly not been built there because of the danger to be destroyed by the sea.
Apparently, in the past 2000 years, the sea has washed away more and more
of the coast, the Carthaginian settlement was originally probably a few
hundred meters on the land, 1749 the remains were on the beach and today
it is completely under water.

This is not a proof for the discovery of America in the ancient world, but
it is an interesting puzzle piece.

MfG

SENECA


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dhill757
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« Reply #305 on: December 27, 2008, 11:28:55 pm »

Of course, Atlantis was supposed to have been destroyed by earthquakes. The following makes it clear just how unsettled the earth of the Azores can be:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Shaking, Spewing Earth
The Azores is a lively place to be. There is a continuous chain of
earthquakes and volcanic activity that has had a great effect on its
inhabitants. Many of them have left the islands in horror after
witnessing one of these catacylysmic events. But disasters are bound
to happen when a volcanic environment is home for thousands of
human beings.89

A warning of such calamity was signaled early in man's history on
the islands. When Cabral discovered Sao Miguel in 1444, he saw two
volcanic mountains, one at each end of the island. The next year
when he returned with supplies and additional settlers, he noticed
something was wrong. The western mountain was completely gone!
When he landed, he questioned the men he left behind from the
previous voyage, and found that during his absence, earthquakes
followed by volcanic explosions, collasped the crater. The years that
followed were labeled "the years of the ashes" because ash could be
found several feet deep on parts of the islands, and ash impeded
ocean traffic hundreds of miles at sea. The collasped crater at Sao
Miguel over the centuries has filled with rainwater forming two
lakes, and next to the lakes, a village can be found which was given
the mythological name, Sete Ciadades, or Seven Cities.90

There have been 21 major volcanic eruptions in the past 550 years
collectively occurring on the islands of Sao Miguel, Terceira, Pico, Sao
Jorge, and Faial.91 In 1562, there was an eruption on Pico causing the
residents to flee in horror to the other islands. In 1580, on Sao Jorge,
12 people and 4,000 head of cattle were killed.92 In 1630, on Sao
Miguel, 200 people were killed and numerous cattle during an
eruption. In 1811 an volcanic islet, one mile in length, formed off the
coast of Sao Miguel. A British Union Jack was planted on it claiming it
for Great Britain. But the protruding islet sank back into the sea
taking the British flag with it.93 As late as 1957, another volcanic
islet arose off the coast of Faial, but this one connected to the island
destroying a lighthouse in the process.94 As one can see, the Azores is
a living volcanic nightmare that has violently made itself known
often through the island chain's history much to the detriment of its
residents.

The earthquakes have been just as destructive. There have been 18
major temblors on the islands in recorded history.99 One such quake
took place in 1522 when the entire village of Villa Franca, on Sao
Miguel island, having 5,000 residents, and being the center of
government, was engulfed within sixty seconds by land mass thrown
from a hill behind the village. It caused a tidal wave and other
destruction in the adjascent islands. It took a year to dig the village
out and to give Christian burials to its 5,000 victims.100

As recently as 1980, a massive earthquake underneath the ocean
near the islands of Sao Jorge, Terceira, and Graciosa took 60 lives;
destroyed 5,278 homes, 32 churches, 6,000 other structures; and
made 21,296 people homeless.101

This litany of volcanic and earthquake disaster, has indelibly burned
itself into the psyche of the Azorean people. Some remain on the
islands with courage and determination, depending upon their
religious faith to see them through, while others emigrate and with
good reason.

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« Reply #306 on: December 27, 2008, 11:29:14 pm »

But They are Beautiful!

The Azores islands are like the mythical sirens sailors believe in,
always dangerously beautiful. Most immigrants leave the Azores
with the idea of returning to their verdant isles with their majestic
cliffs, charming villages, and whitewashed homes glistening in the
sun. Many do return, but usually just to visit. However, a few do
make the islands their retirement home after working in the United
States for decades. They have their well-earned social security
checks sent to them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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« Reply #307 on: December 27, 2008, 11:29:52 pm »

Here is a description of the 1755 Lisbon earthquake that would seem to be both timely and relevant to the discussion of the destruction of Atlantis. The 1755 earthquake wasn't as powerful as the one that struck South Asia, and it's epicenter wasn't in the Azores, but rather southwest of Cape Vincent, but it still gives a good idea about how far-reaching the damage was at the time:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historical Depictions of the 1755 Lisbon Earthquake
Jan T. Kozak, Institue of Rock Mechanics, Czech Academy of Science
Charles D. James, National Information Service for Earthquake Engineering

Note: With permission, this paper is abridged and edited from drafts of a longer work in progress by V. S. Moreira, C. Nunes and J. Kozak on the Lisbon Earthquake of 1755.

Although not the strongest or most deadly earthquake in human history, the 1755 Lisbon earthquake's impact, not only on Portugal but on all of Europe, was profound and lasting. Depictions of the earthquake in art and literature can be found in several European countries, and these were produced and reproduced for centuries following the event, which came to be known as "The Great Lisbon Earthquake."

The earthquake began at 9:30 on November 1st, 1755, and was centered in the Atlantic Ocean, about 200 km WSW of Cape St. Vincent. The total duration of shaking lasted ten minutes and was comprised of three distinct jolts. Effects from the earthquake were far reaching. The worst damage occurred in the south-west of Portugal. Lisbon, the Portuguese capital, was the largest and the most important of the cities damaged. Severe shaking was felt in North Africa and there was heavy loss of life in Fez and Mequinez. Moderate damage was done in Algiers and in southwest Spain. Shaking was also felt in France, Switzerland, and Northern Italy. A devastating fire following the earthquake destroyed a large part of Lisbon, and a very strong tsunami caused heavy destruction along the coasts of Portugal, southwest Spain, and western Morocco.

The oscillation of suspended objects at great distances from the epicenter indicate an enormous area of perceptibility. The observation of seiches as far away as Finland, suggest a magnitude approaching 9.0. Precursory phenomena were reported, including turbid waters in Portugal and Spain, falling water level in wells in Spain, and a decrease in water flow in springs and fountains.

Detailed descriptions of the earthquake's effects in Morocco, were, in some cases, based on Portuguese manuscripts written by priests. The cities of Meknes, Fez, and Marrakesh in the interior, and the coastal towns of Asilah, Larache, Rabat, and Agadir (Santa Cruz during the Portuguese occupation) suffered much damage in the quake. Mosques, synagogues, churches, and many other buildings collapsed in Meknes, where numerous casualties were reported. The convent, church, and Hospital de S. Francisco collapsed completely.

The Fire
Soon after the earthquake, several fires broke out, mostly started by cooking fires and candles. Some of them were rapidly extinguished, especially in the densely populated areas. But many inhabitants fled from their homes and left fires burning. Narrow streets full of fallen debris prevented access to the fire sites. The public squares filled with people and their rescued belongings, but as the fire approached, these squares were abandoned, and the fire reached catastrophic proportions. Looters setting fire to some ransacked houses caused the belief that the fire had a criminal origin. The flames raged for five days.

All of the downtown area, from St. Paul's quarter to St. Roch, and from Carmo and Trindade to the Rossio square area to the Castle and Alfama quarters were burned, along with the Ribeira, Rua Nova, and Rossio quarters. Remolares, Barrio Alto, Limoeiro, and Alfama, were partially burned.

Several buildings which had suffered little damage due to the earthquake were destroyed by the fire. The Royal Palace and the Opera House were totally gutted by the flames. The Patriarchal suffered relatively little damage in the earthquake, and religious services continued there during the afternoon, but the church was evacuated as the fire approached. Later the building was completely burned out.

The Tsunami
Immediately after the earthquake, many inhabitants of Lisbon looked for safety on the sea by boarding ships moored on the river. But about 30 minutes after the quake, a large wave swamped the area near Bugie Tower on the mouth of the Tagus. The area between Junqueria and Alcantara in the western part of the city was the most heavily damaged by the wave, but further destruction occurred upstream. The Cais de Pedra at Rerreiro do Paco and part of the nearby custom house were flattened.

A total of three waves struck the shore, each dragging people and debris out to sea and leaving exposed large stretches of the river bottom. In front of the Terreiro do Paco, the maximum height of the waves was estimated at 6 meters. Boats overcrowded with refugees capsized and sank. In the town Cascais, some 30 km west of Lisbon, the waves wrecked several boats and when the water withdrew, large stretches of sea bottom were left uncovered. In coastal areas such as Peniche, situated about 80 km north of Lisbon, many people were killed by the tsunami. In Setubal, 30 km south of Lisbon, the water reached the first floor of buildings.

The destruction was greatest in Algarve, southern Portugal, where the tsunami dismantled some coastal fortresses and, in the lower levels, razed houses. In some places the waves crested at more than 30 m. Almost all the coastal towns and villages of Algarve were heavily damaged, except Faro, which was protected by sandy banks. In Lagos, the waves reached the top of the city walls. For the coastal regions, the destructive effects of the tsunami were more disastrous than those of the earthquake.

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« Reply #308 on: December 27, 2008, 11:30:25 pm »

In southwestern Spain, the tsunami caused damage to Cadiz and Huelva, and the waves penetrated the Guadalquivir River, reaching Seville. In Gibraltar, the sea rose suddenly by about two meters. In Ceuta the tsunami was strong, but in the Mediterranean Sea, it decreased rapidly. On the other hand, it caused great damage and casualties to the western coast of Morocco, from Tangier, where the waves reached the walled fortifications of the town, to Agadir, where the waters passed over the walls, killing many.

The tsunami reached, with less intensity, the coast of France, Great Britain, Ireland, Belgium and Holland. In Madeira and in the Azores islands damage was extensive and many ships were in danger of being wrecked.

The tsunami crossed the Atlantic Ocean, reaching the Antilles in the afternoon. Reports from Antigua, Martinique, and Barbados note that the sea first rose more than a meter, followed by large waves.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://nisee.berkeley.edu/lisbon/
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« Reply #309 on: December 27, 2008, 11:31:36 pm »

A volcanic undersea rock which was formed in land

In 1898, during the installation of a telegraphic line, broke one of the wires which had been installed in 2800 m depth at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean in the place which has been named since then "Telegraph square". While special machinery was trying to remove the edges of the wire from the bottom of the sea a strange rock was brought to the surface. Several years later, Paul Tremie, head of the oceonographical institude of France, organised a conference in Paris. That rock had obviously volcanic origin and the most importand was that it hadn' t been solidified in the bottom of the sea but in the air. That is, it must have come of a volcano whose crater was above sea level. It ,also, had sharp sides which were not been corrosive by water. By analyzing it, Tremie estimated that it must have been 15000 years old. Later undersea foundings confirmed that the same type of rocks existed in a huge area at the depth of the Atlantic Ocean.

(Republication from Anastasia Nanou's article "Searching for Atlantis", in the magazine "MYSTIC-mysteries of the
world", July-August 2000)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000958;p=5

http://www.atlantida.gr/EndiaforaEbrimata.htm
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Bianca
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« Reply #310 on: January 03, 2009, 10:46:20 am »









Great information, as usual, dhill!!!


Thank you!!!




I was able to locate the rest of the article that you posted at the beginning, to which access
was denied:
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Bianca
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« Reply #311 on: January 03, 2009, 10:50:42 am »










dhill757
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    Re: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean
« Reply #163 on: December 27, 2008, 05:32:38 am » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




                                               Who discovered the Americas?






Zeeya Merali



Skull analysis suggests Australians got there first.

From the BA Festival of Science, Exeter, UK.

Traditional colonization theories hold that the first wave of humans to migrate to the Americas came from Siberia.


The first colonizers of the Americas came from Australia, according to archaeologists who have analysed skulls from 12,000-year-old skeletons found in California. The finding contradicts the traditional view that the first immigrants were the ancestors of modern Native Americans.

The skulls, taken from skeletal remains found in the desert of the Baja California peninsula in Mexico, are long and narrow. "This is completely different to the Native Americans' rounder skull shape," explains lead researcher Silvia Gonzalez from the Liverpool John Moores University, UK.

The skeletons are housed by the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. They were embedded in volcanic deposits that deteriorated the structure of the bones and made them difficult to date accurately. But the skulls' intriguing form has driven researchers to work out how old they are.

Gonzalez and her team announced their first set of results on 6 September at the Exeter-based Festival of Science, run by the British Association for the Advancement of Science. They have managed to radiocarbon date 4 of the 27 skeletons. So far, the oldest, belonging to an individual called Peñon Woman III, is 12,700 years old.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040906/full/040906-5.html 
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Bianca
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« Reply #312 on: January 03, 2009, 10:53:18 am »





HERE IS THE REST OF IT:








Cue from the Pericues



Traditional colonization theories hold that the first wave of humans to migrate to the Americas came from Siberia at the end of the last ice age. Skeletons of these migrants are dated at about 9,000 years old. So Gonzalez says the new evidence means that the Siberians, who are related to modern day Native Americans, did not get there first after all.

She believes the lost tribe of immigrants, known as the Pericues, are related to modern Australian Aborigines, who have a similar skull shape, and that they became extinct between 200 and 300 years ago. "There are eighteenth century reports from missionaries in Baja California of thin, hunter-gatherer, shellfish-eating people," says Gonzalez. "These seafaring travellers would have followed a corridor around the Pacific coast from Australia, along the coast of Japan, to Baja."

"The theory that the first migrant population to the Americas is not connected to the current Native Americans has been debated for five to ten years," says Chris Stringer at the Natural History Museum in London. "If Dr Gonzalez has dated these skeletons accurately, then this is a very exciting result."

The researchers now hope to strengthen their theory of a link with aboriginal Australians by doing a DNA analysis of the Pericue skeletons' bones.



Article Copyright © 2004 MacMillan Publishers Ltd.



http://www.bioedonline.org/picks/news.cfm?art=1147
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« Reply #313 on: January 12, 2009, 02:34:08 am »

Thanks, Bianca, the problem with posting just the links is that the stories tend to disappear from the internet at times.  That's why I'm happy that most of the time, I printed both the stories and the links.  Of course, in my opinion, the information is presented better here than it was at AR! 
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« Reply #314 on: January 12, 2009, 02:38:15 am »

The (not so) Fortunate Islands

Around 100 BC, a Roman author and geographer that listened to the name Marcellus, wrote that the legend of
Atlantis was still being preserved on a group of islands in the Atlantic Ocean. In 450 AD Proculus Diadochus, in an
attempt to verify what Marcellus had written so many centuries ago, went on a journey to the Islands of the Blessed
or Fortunate Islands, located at only a day sailing off the coast of Mauretania. He could only acknowledge Marcellus’
findings. For centuries, the Canaries were referred to as the Fortunate Islands, as is shown on various ancient maps
and descriptions. But where would someone ca. 100 BC get such accurate information on the inhabitants of
unexplored islands in a far away corner of the world? Surely, he didn’t go there himself! Could it be the information
came from a much older source?

In his Topographia Christiana, a description of the universe, Cosmas Indicopleustes of Alexandria described the Canary Islands as ‘The land man came from before the great flood’. It has been estimated the work has been written between 535 and 548 AD, in a Sinai cloister. Today, looking at his maps makes scientists smile, because his view of the world was far from accurate, but why would he pick this rather small archipelago as the place where man came from before the flood, inevitably linking it with Plato’s Atlantis. Are we overlooking something? In Critias we read:

“For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they
were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their
actions.”
[Critias]


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