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Atlantis References that Predate or are Contemporary with Plato

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Author Topic: Atlantis References that Predate or are Contemporary with Plato  (Read 9270 times)
Terra Sohns
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2007, 10:59:03 am »



From Helios:

Quote
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"Death is not the worst than can happen to men."
Plato
So true!
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Terra Sohns
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2007, 10:59:54 am »

http://www.goddess-athena.org/Encyclopedia/Friends/Proclus/The_Theology_of_Plato_x.htm

http://www.goddess-athena.org/Encyclopedia/Friends/Proclus/The_Theology_of_Plato_x.htm
quote:
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T h e T h e o l o g y o f P l a t o
b y P r o c l u s
The divine Iamblichus however, doubts how the Gods are said to be allotted certain places according to definite times, as by Plato in the Timaeus, Minerva is said to have been first allotted the guardianship of Athens, and afterwards of Sais.
For if their allotment commenced from a certain time, it will also at a certain time cease. For every thing which is measured by time is of this kind. And farther still was the place which at a certain time they are allotted, without a presiding deity prior to this allotment, or was it under the government of other Gods?
For if it was without a presiding deity, how is it to be admitted that a certain part of the universe was once entirely destitute of divinity?
How can any place remain without the guardianship of superior beings?
And, if any place is sufficient to the preservation of itself, how does it afterwards become the allotment of some one of the Gods?
But if it should be said that it is afterwards under the government of another God, of whom it becomes this allotment, this also is absurd. For the second God does not divulse the government and allotment of the former, nor do the Gods alternately occupy the places of each other, nor daemons change their allotments.
Such being the doubts on this subject, he solves them by saying that the allotments of the Gods remain perpetually unchanged, but that the participants of them, at one time indeed enjoy the beneficent influence of the presiding powers, but at another are deprived of it. He adds that these are the mutations measured by time, which sacred institutes frequently call the birth-day of the Gods.


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Terra Sohns
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2007, 11:01:41 am »

From Kenneth Caroli:

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I've read that Plato's narrator was Critias 3 his greatgrandfather and grandson of Critias 2, son of
Dropides 2.It was the latter who was the freind and younger relative of Solon.The 7th century Critias and Dropides were the first of those in the family to bear their names.Critias 3 reputedly died at the Battle of Aegospotomi, when Athens lost the Peloponesian wars
in 405 B.C..He was supposedly very old then.The tyrant was his nefew,
Critias 4,said to be Plato's great uncle, born ca.460 B.C..Critias 2 was doubtless dead before Critias 4 was born.The main uncertainty is proof that Critias 3 was a member of Socrates circle as we know Critias 4 was.Of course classicists debate Plato's family tree as the do the sequence and dates of his dialogues.Many prefer Critias 4 to be the narrator in order to imply the reader should disbelieve anything Plato has him say.The same inference would not work with Critias 3, who was presumably respected.Plato supposedly visited Sais himself as well as Memphis and Heliopolis, though modern scholars
often dipute it.Though he is thought to have been in Egypt, if at all, under Achoris of dynasty 29
it's odd he did not pass through thier capital, the port city of Mendes.Achoris arose ca.393/91 B.C. and Plato returned to Athens by 387/86 B.C..Curiously, however, Sais was the capital of Amyrtaios,
sole king of dynasty 28, 404-398 B.C..He drove out the Persians in 401 B.C. and Plato left Athens in
399 B.C., following Socrates' death.Did he go directly to Egypt as Solon was said to have done?Was it really he who found the Atlantis story there or did he just confirm it? was it ever there at all?The later quote by Proclus [410-485 A.D.]that Crantor [340-275 B.C.]
confirmed Plato's account in Sais was mistranslated in the early 19th century by Thomas Taylor.Proclus was ambiguous whom he meant, writing only 'he' not Crantor at the relevant point.The way he paragraph was worded 'he' could refer to either Plato himself or
Crantor.But Crantor, though claiming Plato put words in the Egyptian priest's mouth,making him praise Athens, still believed the Atlantis story historical not allegorical as did most Neo-Platonists.Plutarch,while saying Plato embellished the grandness of Atlantis, accepted that the story was rooted in an Egyptian source.Proclus thought Plato added allegorical detail but over an historical core.The other
neoplatonists could not agree upon the allegory intended any more than their modern counterparts do.They had no direct proof either way.Aristotle's famed quip at Atlantis expense survives only as a third hand quote in Strabo without
further ellucidation.It was more a jab at Homer even than Plato since the 'wall of the Acheans' at Troy was cited ahead of Atlantis in the quote.Strabo braught it up while
discussing the Troad.Aristotle also largely disbelieved in cyclic catastrophies which Plato had espoused and into which the Atlantis tale fit as a prime example.So he had motive to dismiss it,something anti-atlantists rarely report.If the two dialogues were written in 355-350 B.C. as often theorized Aristotle had left the Academy by then in 356 B.C..The description of the Atlantean plain
resembles depictions of the Egyptian paradise of the dead in the far west which myth connected to a conflagration and flood that drowned most of the gods.It is particularly the Saite rescension,
of the Book of the Dead that most resembles Atlantis because the plain is made longer than it was wide instead of the reverse as in older texts.This version was completed in the reign of Amasis 2, Solon's host.Phoenicians, employed by Necho 2 [609-595 B.C.] had only recently passed through Gibraltar
so the Saites had the most up to date information on that region and were more liable to tell a greek than would the Phoenicians themselves.Egyptologists love to claim there is no reference to Atlantis in Egypt when they only have 1-10 % of ancient records.Sais was scarcely touched by archaeologists until 1997 and so far the have reported no inscriptional material at all.So the lack of the Atlantis story ther is not surprising.
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Terra Sohns
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2007, 11:02:54 am »

From Atalante:

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kenneth caroli,
Here again is the link to that biography of Critias 4. http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/c/critias.htm

After studying this biographical info, I believe we can recognize a substantial portion of the Atlantis story which was shaped by this Critias 4, and also "why" he was the logical person to do this shaping.

Here is the quote which I have in mind:

quote:
The remaining elegaic couplets, which record various customs and facts relating to the Spartans, apparently belonged to a "Politeia of the Lacedaemonians" in verse (fragments 5-7). Politeia is a term often best translated as "constitution," but often refers more broadly to a "way of life" rather than strictly political matters. Critias appears to have been one of the first to compose such "constitutions" either in verse or prose. Critias reportedly believed that the Spartan politeia was the best (Xenophon, Hellenica 2.3.34), and so it is no accident that the majority of the fragments come from his constitutions of the Lacedaimonians (one in prose, the other in verse).
...In the fragments from his "Constitution of the Lacedaimonians" Critias never fails to record his admiration for even the most mundane features of Spartan society. Along with Lacedaimonian moderation in drinking wine and toasting their fellows (fr. 6), Critias stated that the Laconian way of raising children (fr. 32), the shape of Laconian drinking cups, Laconian shoes, Laconian cloaks, and even Laconian furniture (fr. 34) were the best. He also recorded that "it was a Lacedaimonian, Chilon the wise, who once said, 'Nothing too much, all beautiful things arrive at the proper moment'" (fr. 7).

Critias was one of the first to write histories of individual city states.
endquote

Now let me explain what I deduce from this info about Critias 4. a) This man, C4, was one of the first to write a history of cities. (i.e. He lived after the so-called "father of history", Herodotus 450 BC.) b) Critias 4 had a special name for a history of a city ("constitution"), and he wrote several documents which were titled as constitutions. c) He passionately glorified everything which was associated with the Spartans/Lacedemonians.

During the last year or so, I have noticed several Atlantean mythical correspondences to the Pleiades titanesses (i.e. daughters of Atlas) who settled in the Peloponese.

This was PRECISELY the type of (Peloponesian) material which Critias 4 glorified in his ordinary literary output.

And of course, Critias 4, was one of the 30 Tyrants who were willing to rule Athens as a subservient outpost of Sparta(i.e. the Peloponese) in 403 BC.

All of the above items cast an eerie spotlight on the part of the Critias dialogue, where an Egyptian priest tells Solon to come into the sacred registers of Egypt and inspect the "constitutions" of "Ancient Athens" and the corresponding "constitutions" of the ancient Poseidonia/Atlantis/Pleiad peoples.

Since Critias 4 is regarded as the first person to write this style of city "constitutions" (or at least, he lived in the first generation of people who were writing this way): he is the primary candidate for embellishing Solon's original information about Atlantis.

Therefore the document which Georgeos claims to have found "embedded" in Plato's dialogue Critias should be attributed to Critias 4 (not to Solon).


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Terra Sohns
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2007, 01:13:37 pm »

From Chronos:

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Welcome, Kenneth, I can see that you, too, have been researching the Atlantis references contemporary to Plato. Most of your information is correct, and I wonder if you can produce the exact quote of Strabo attributed to Aristotle disproving Atlantis so that we can study the context. Very little arhaecological work has ever been done at Sais, and, true, it didn't start until 1997.

quote:
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The later quote by Proclus [410-485 A.D.]that Crantor [340-275 B.C.]confirmed Plato's account in Sais was mistranslated in the early 19th century by Thomas Taylor. Proclus was ambiguous whom he meant, writing only 'he' not Crantor at the relevant point.The way he paragraph was worded 'he' could refer to either Plato himself or Crantor.
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An excellent point here. I've read this before, too, and didn't want to add it yet because I was looking to print this exact passage, too, in it's exact context. We must also look at Crantor himself to see if he actually did make such a trip to Egypt (I think I have read that he did), and, in any event, whether he went to Sais.

In any event, count me among those who believe that it was indeed Solon not Plato who received the story of Atlantis. Attributing it to Plato seems just another way to discredit the story by those who don't happen to believe it anyway.


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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2007, 01:14:43 pm »

Strabo, Geography

I.[1] After the mouth of the Silaris one comes to Leucania, and to the temple of the Argoan Hera, built by Jason, and near by, within fifty stadia, to Poseidonia. Thence, sailing out past the gulf, one comes to Leucosia,1 an island, from which it is only a short voyage across to the continent. The island is named after one of the Sirens, who was cast ashore here after the Sirens had flung themselves, as the myth has it, into the depths of the sea. In front of the island lies that promontory2 which is opposite the Sirenussae and with them forms the Poseidonian Gulf. On doubling this promontory one comes immediately to another gulf, in which there is a city which was called "Hyele" by the Phocaeans who founded it, and by others "Ele," after a certain spring, but is called by the men of today "Elea." This is the native city of Parmenides and Zeno, the Pythagorean philosophers. It is my opinion that not only through the influence of these men but also in still earlier times the city was well governed; and it was because of this good government that the people not only held their own against the Leucani and the Poseidoniatae, but even returned victorious, although they were inferior to them both in extent of territory and in population. At any rate, they are compelled, on account of the poverty of their soil, to busy themselves mostly with the sea and to establish factories for the salting of fish, and other such industries. According to Antiochus,3 after the capture of Phocaea by Harpagus, the general of Cyrus, all the Phocaeans who could do so embarked with their entire families on their light boats and, under the leadership of Creontiades, sailed first to Cyrnus and Massalia, but when they were beaten off from those places founded Elea. Some, however, say that the city took its name from the River Elees.4 It is about two hundred stadia distant from Poseidonia. After Elea comes the promontory of Palinurus. Off the territory of Elea are two islands, the Oenotrides, which have anchoring-places. After Palinurus comes Pyxus--a cape, harbor, and river, for all three have the same name. Pyxus was peopled with new settlers by Micythus, the ruler of the Messene in Sicily, but all the settlers except a few sailed away again. After Pyxus comes another gulf, and also Laüs--a river and city; it is the last of the Leucanian cities, lying only a short distance above the sea, is a colony of the Sybaritae, and the distance thither from Ele is four hundred stadia. The whole voyage along the coast of Leucania is six hundred and fifty stadia. Near Laüs is the hero-temple of Draco, one of the companions of Odysseus, in regard to which the following oracle was given out to the Italiotes:5
Much people will one day perish about Laļan Draco.
6 And the oracle came true, for, deceived by it, the peoples7 who made campaigns against Laüs, that is, the Greek inhabitants of Italy, met disaster at the hands of the Leucani.
[2] These, then, are the places on the Tyrrhenian seaboard that belong to the Leucani. As for the other sea,8 they could not reach it at first; in fact, the Greeks who held the Gulf of Tarentum were in control there. Before the Greeks came, however, the Leucani were as yet not even in existence, and the regions were occupied by the Chones and the Oenotri. But after the Samnitae had grown considerably in power, and had ejected the Chones and the Oenotri, and had settled a colony of Leucani in this portion of Italy, while at the same time the Greeks were holding possession of both seaboards as far as the Strait, the Greeks and the barbarians carried on war with one another for a long time. Then the tyrants of Sicily, and afterwards the Carthaginians, at one time at war with the Romans for the possession of Sicily and at another for the possession of Italy itself, maltreated all the peoples in this part of the world, but especially the Greeks. Later on, beginning from the time of the Trojan war, the Greeks had taken away from the earlier inhabitants much of the interior country also, and indeed had increased in power to such an extent that they called this part of Italy, together with Sicily, Magna Graecia. But today all parts of it, except Taras,9 Rhegium, and Neapolis, have become completely barbarized,10 and some parts have been taken and are held by the Leucani and the Brettii, and others by the Campani--that is, nominally by the Campani but in truth by the Romans, since the Campani themselves have become Romans. However, the man who busies himself with the description of the earth must needs speak, not only of the facts of the present, but also sometimes of the facts of the past, especially when they are notable. As for the Leucani, I have already spoken of those whose territory borders on the Tyrrhenian Sea, while those who hold the interior are the people who live above the Gulf of Tarentum. But the latter, and the Brettii, and the Samnitae themselves (the progenitors of these peoples) have so utterly deteriorated that it is difficult even to distinguish their several settlements; and the reason is that no common organization longer endures in any one of the separate tribes; and their characteristic differences in language, armor, dress, and the like, have completely disappeared; and, besides, their settlements, severally and in detail, are wholly without repute.

[3] Accordingly, without making distinctions between them, I shall only tell in a general way what I have learned about the peoples who live in the interior, I mean the Leucani and such of the Samnitae as are their next neighbors. Petelia, then, is regarded as the metropolis of the Chones, and has been rather populous down to the present day. It was founded by Philoctetes after he, as the result of a political quarrel, had fled from Meliboea. It has so strong a position by nature that the Samnitae once fortified it against the Thurii. And the old Crimissa, which is near the same regions, was also founded by Philoctetes. Apollodorus, in his work On Ships,11 in mentioning Philoctetes, says that, according to some, when Philoctetes arrived at the territory of Croton, he colonized the promontory Crimissa, and, in the interior above it, the city Chone, from which the Chonians of that district took their name, and that some of his companions whom he had sent forth with Aegestes the Trojan to the region of Eryx in Sicily fortified Aegesta.12 Moreover, Grumentum and Vertinae are in the interior, and so are Calasarna and some other small settlements, until we arrive at Venusia, a notable city; but I think that this city and those that follow in order after it as one goes towards Campania are Samnite cities. Beyond Thurii lies also the country that is called Tauriana. The Leucani are Samnite in race, but upon mastering the Poseidoniatae and their allies in war they took possession of their cities. At all other times, it is true, their government was democratic, but in times of war they were wont to choose a king from those who held magisterial offices. But now they are Romans.

[4] The seaboard that comes next after Leucania, as far as the Sicilian Strait and for a distance of thirteen hundred and fifty stadia, is occupied by the Brettii. According to Antiochus, in his treatise On Italy, this territory (and this is the territory which he says he is describing) was once called Italy, although in earlier times it was called Oenotria. And he designates as its boundaries, first, on the Tyrrhenian Sea, the same boundary that I have assigned to the country of the Brettii--the River Laüs; and secondly, on the Sicilian Sea, Metapontium. But as for the country of the Tarantini, which borders on Metapontium, he names it as outside of Italy, and calls its inhabitants Iapyges. And at a time more remote, according to him, the names "Italians" and "Oenotrians" were applied only to the people who lived this side the isthmus in the country that slopes toward the Sicilian Strait. The isthmus itself, one hundred and sixty stadia in width, lies between two gulfs--the Hipponiate (which Antiochus has called Napetine) and the Scylletic. The coasting-voyage round the country comprised between the isthmus and the Strait is two thousand stadia. But after that, he says, the name of "Italy" and that of the "Oenotrians" was further extended as far as the territory of Metapontium and that of Seiris, for, he adds, the Chones, a well-regulated Oenotrian tribe, had taken up their abode in these regions and had called the land Chone. Now Antiochus had spoken only in a rather simple and antiquated way, without making any distinctions between the Leucani and the Brettii. In the first place, Leucania lies between the Tyrrhenian and Sicilian coastlines,13 the former coastline from the River Silaris as far as Laüs, and the latter, from Metapontium as far as Thurii; in the second place, on the mainland, from the country of the Samnitae as far as the isthmus which extends from Thurii to Cerilli (a city near Laüs), the isthmus is three hundred stadia in width. But the Brettii are situated beyond the Leucani; they live on a peninsula, but this peninsula includes another peninsula which has the isthmus that extends from Scylletium to the Hipponiate Gulf. The name of the tribe was given to it by the Leucani, for the Leucani call all revolters "brettii." The Brettii revolted, so it is said (at first they merely tended flocks for the Leucani, and then, by reason of the indulgence of their masters, began to act as free men), at the time when Rio made his expedition against Dionysius and aroused all peoples against all others. So much, then, for my general description of the Leucani and the Brettii.

[5] The next city after Laüs belongs to Brettium, and is named Temesa, though the men of today call it Tempsa; it was founded by the Ausones, but later on was settled also by the Aetolians under the leadership of Thoas; but the Aetolians were ejected by the Brettii, and then the Brettii were crushed by Hannibal and by the Romans. Near Temesa, and thickly shaded with wild olive trees, is the hero-temple of Polites, one of the companions of Odysseus, who was treacherously slain by the barbarians, and for that reason became so exceedingly wroth against the country that, in accordance with an oracle, the people of the neighborhood collected tribute14 for him; and hence, also, the popular saying applied to those who are merciless,15 that they are "beset by the hero of Temesa." But when the Epizephyrian Locrians captured the city, Euthymus, the pugilist, so the story goes, entered the lists against Polites, defeated him in the fight and forced him to release the natives from the tribute. People say that Homer has in mind this Temesa, not the Tamassus in Cyprus (the name is spelled both ways), when he says "to Temesa, in quest of copper."16 And in fact copper mines are to be seen in the neighborhood, although now they have been abandoned. Near Temesa is Terina, which Hannibal destroyed, because he was unable to guard it, at the time when he had taken refuge in Brettium itself. Then comes Consentia, the metropolis of the Brettii; and a little above this city is Pandosia, a strong fortress, near which Alexander the Molossian17 was killed. He, too, was deceived by the oracle18 at Dodona, which bade him be on his guard against Acheron and Pandosia; for places which bore these names were pointed out to him in Thesprotia, but he came to his end here in Brettium. Now the fortress has three summits, and the River Acheron flows past it. And there was another oracle that helped to deceive him:

Three-hilled Pandosia, much people shalt thou kill one day;
for he thought that the oracle clearly meant the destruction of the enemy, not of his own people. It is said that Pandosia was once the capital of the Oenotrian Kings. After Consentia comes Hipponium, which was founded by the Locrians. Later on, the Brettii were in possession of Hipponium, but the Romans took it away from them and changed its name to Vibo Valentia. And because the country round about Hipponium has luxuriant meadows abounding in flowers, people have believed that Core19 used to come hither from Sicily to gather flowers; and consequently it has become the custom among the women of Hipponium to gather flowers and to weave them into garlands, so that on festival days it is disgraceful to wear bought garlands. Hipponium has also a naval station, which was built long ago by Agathocles, the tyrant of the Siciliotes,20 when he made himself master of the city. Thence one sails to the Harbor of Heracles,21 which is the point where the headlands of Italy near the Strait begin to turn towards the west. And on this voyage one passes Medma, a city of the same Locrians aforementioned, which has the same name as a great fountain there, and possesses a naval station near by, called Emporium. Near it is also the Metaurus River, and a mooring-place bearing the same name. Off this coast lie the islands of the Liparaei, at a distance of two hundred stadia from the Strait. According to some, they are the islands of Aeolus, of whom the Poet makes mention in the Odyssey.22 They are seven in number and are all within view both from Sicily and from the continent near Medma. But I shall tell about them when I discuss Sicily. After the Metaurus River comes a second Metaurus.23 Next after this river comes Scyllaeum, a lofty rock which forms a peninsula, its isthmus being low and affording access to ships on both sides. This isthmus Anaxilaüs, the tyrant of the Rhegini, fortified against the Tyrrheni, building a naval station there, and thus deprived the pirates of their passage through the strait. For Caenys,24 too, is near by, being two hundred and fifty stadia distant from Medma; it is the last cape, and with the cape on the Sicilian side, Pelorias, forms the narrows of the Strait. Cape Pelorias is one of the three capes that make the island triangular, and it bends towards the summer sunrise,25 just as Caenys bends towards the west, each one thus turning away from the other in the opposite direction. Now the length of the narrow passage of the Strait from Caenys as far as the Poseidonium,26 or the Columna Rheginorum, is about six stadia, while the shortest passage across is slightly more; and the distance is one hundred stadia from the Columna to Rhegium, where the Strait begins to widen out, as one proceeds towards the east, towards the outer sea, the sea which is called the Sicilian Sea.
[6] Rhegium was founded by the Chalcidians who, it is said, in accordance with an oracle, were dedicated, one man out of every ten Chalcidians, to Apollo,27 because of a dearth of crops, but later on emigrated hither from Delphi, taking with them still others from their home. But according to Antiochus, the Zanclaeans sent for the Chalcidians and appointed Antimnestus their founder-in-chief.28 To this colony also belonged the refugees of the Peloponnesian Messenians who had been defeated by the men of the opposing faction. These men were unwilling to be punished by the Lacedaemonians for the violation of the maidens29 which took place at Limnae, though they were themselves guilty of the outrage done to the maidens, who had been sent there for a religious rite and had also killed those who came to their aid.30 So the refugees, after withdrawing to Macistus, sent a deputation to the oracle of the god to find fault with Apollo and Artemis if such was to be their fate in return for their trying to avenge those gods, and also to enquire how they, now utterly ruined, might be saved. Apollo bade them go forth with the Chalcidians to Rhegium, and to be grateful to his sister; for, he added, they were not ruined, but saved, inasmuch as they were surely not to perish along with their native land, which would be captured a little later by the Spartans. They obeyed; and therefore the rulers of the Rhegini down to Anaxilas31 were always appointed from the stock of the Messenians. According to Antiochus, the Siceli and Morgetes had in early times inhabited the whole of this region, but later on, being ejected by the Oenotrians, had crossed over into Sicily. According to some, Morgantium also took its name from the Morgetes of Rhegium.32 The city of Rhegium was once very powerful and had many dependencies in the neighborhood; and it was always a fortified outpost threatening the island, not only in earlier times but also recently, in our own times, when Sextus Pompeius caused Sicily to revolt. It was named Rhegium, either, as Aeschylus says, because of the calamity that had befallen this region, for, as both he and others state, Sicily was once "rent"33 from the continent by earthquakes, "and so from this fact," he adds, "it is called Rhegium." They infer from the occurrences about Aetna and in other parts of Sicily, and in Lipara and in the islands about it, and also in the Pithecussae and the whole of the coast of the adjacent continent, that it is not unreasonable to suppose that the rending actually took place. Now at the present time the earth about the Strait, they say, is but seldom shaken by earthquakes, because the orifices there, through which the fire is blown up and the red-hot masses and the waters are ejected, are open. At that time, however, the fire that was smouldering beneath the earth, together with the wind, produced violent earthquakes, because the passages to the surface were all blocked up, and the regions thus heaved up yielded at last to the force of the blasts of wind, were rent asunder, and then received the sea that was on either side, both here34 and between the other islands in that region.35 And, in fact, Prochyte and the Pithecussae are fragments broken off from the continent, as also Capreae, Leucosia, the Sirenes, and the Oenotrides. Again, there are islands which have arisen from the high seas, a thing that even now happens in many places; for it is more plausible that the islands in the high seas were heaved up from the deeps, whereas it is more reasonable to think that those lying off the promontories and separated merely by a strait from the mainland have been rent therefrom. However, the question which of the two explanations is true, whether Rhegium got its name on account of this or on account of its fame (for the Samnitae might have called it by the Latin word for "royal,"36 because their progenitors had shared in the government with the Romans and used the Latin language to a considerable extent), is open to investigation. Be this as it may, it was a famous city, and not only founded many cities but also produced many notable men, some notable for their excellence as statesmen and others for their learning; nevertheless, Dionysius37 demolished it, they say, on the charge that when he asked for a girl in marriage they proffered the daughter of the public executioner;38 but his son restored a part of the old city and called it Phoebia.39 Now in the time of Pyrrhus the garrison of the Campani broke the treaty and destroyed most of the inhabitants, and shortly before the Marsic war much of the settlement was laid in ruins by earthquakes; but Augustus Caesar, after ejecting Pompeius from Sicily, seeing that the city was in want of population, gave it some men from his expeditionary forces as new settlers, and it is now fairly populous.

[7] As one sails from Rhegium towards the east, and at a distance of fifty stadia, one comes to Cape Leucopetra40 (so called from its color), in which, it is said, the Apennine Mountain terminates. Then comes Heracleium, which is the last cape of Italy and inclines towards the south; for on doubling it one immediately sails with the southwest wind as far as Cape Iapygia, and then veers off, always more and more, towards the northwest in the direction of the Ionian Gulf.41 After Heracleium comes a cape belonging to Locris, which is called Zephyrium; its harbor is exposed to the winds that blow from the west, and hence the name. Then comes the city Locri Epizephyrii,42 a colony of the Locri who live on the Crisaean Gulf,43 which was led out by Evanthes only a little while after the founding of Croton and Syracuse.44 Ephorus is wrong in calling it a colony of the Locri Opuntii. However, they lived only three or four years at Zephyrium, and then moved the city to its present site, with the cooperation of Syracusans [for at the same time the latter, among whom . . .]45 And at Zephyrium there is a spring, called Locria, where the Locri first pitched camp. The distance from Rhegium to Locri is six hundred stadia. The city is situated on the brow of a hill called Epopis.

[8] The Locri Epizephyrii are believed to have been the first people to use written laws. After they had lived under good laws for a very long time, Dionysius, on being banished from the country of the Syracusans,46 abused them most lawlessly of all men. For he would sneak into the bed-chambers of the girls after they had been dressed up for their wedding, and lie with them before their marriage; and he would gather together the girls who were ripe for marriage, let loose doves with cropped wings upon them in the midst of the banquets, and then bid the girls waltz around unclad, and also bid some of them, shod with sandals that were not mates (one high and the other low), chase the doves around--all for the sheer indecency of it. However, he paid the penalty after he went back to Sicily again to resume his government; for the Locri broke up his garrison, set themselves free, and thus became masters of his wife and children. These children were his two daughters, and the younger of his two sons (who was already a lad), for the other, Apollocrates, was helping his father to effect his return to Sicily by force of arms. And although Dionysius--both himself and the Tarantini on his behalf--earnestly begged the Locri to release the prisoners on any terms they wished, they would not give them up; instead, they endured a siege and a devastation of their country. But they poured out most of their wrath upon his daughters, for they first made them prostitutes and then strangled them, and then, after burning their bodies, ground up the bones and sank them in the sea. Now Ephorus, in his mention of the written legislation of the Locri which was drawn up by Zaleucus from the Cretan, the Laconian, and the Areopagite usages, says that Zaleucus was among the first to make the following innovation--that whereas before his time it had been left to the judges to determine the penalties for the several crimes, he defined them in the laws, because he held that the opinions of the judges about the same crimes would not be the same, although they ought to be the same. And Ephorus goes on to commend Zaleucus for drawing up the laws on contracts in simpler language. And he says that the Thurii, who later on wished to excel the Locri in precision, became more famous, to be sure, but morally inferior; for, he adds, it is not those who in their laws guard against all the wiles of false accusers that have good laws, but those who abide by laws that are laid down in simple language. And Plato has said as much--that where there are very many laws, there are also very many lawsuits and corrupt practices, just as where there are many physicians, there are also likely to be many diseases.47

[9] The Halex River, which marks the boundary between the Rhegian and the Locrian territories, passes out through a deep ravine; and a peculiar thing happens there in connection with the grasshoppers, that although those on the Locrian bank sing, the others remain mute. As for the cause of this, it is conjectured that on the latter side the region is so densely shaded that the grasshoppers, being wet with dew, cannot expand their membranes, whereas those on the sunny side have dry and horn-like membranes and therefore can easily produce their song. And people used to show in Locri a statue of Eunomus, the cithara-bard, with a locust seated on the cithara. Timaeus says that Eunomus and Ariston of Rhegium were once contesting with each other at the Pythian games and fell to quarrelling about the casting of the lots;48 so Ariston begged the Delphians to cooperate with him, for the reason that his ancestors belonged49 to the god and that the colony had been sent forth from there;50 and although Eunomus said that the Rhegini had absolutely no right even to participate in the vocal contests, since in their country even the grasshoppers, the sweetest-voiced of all creatures, were mute, Ariston was none the less held in favor and hoped for the victory; and yet Eunomus gained the victory and set up the aforesaid image in his native land, because during the contest, when one of the chords broke, a grasshopper lit on his cithara and supplied the missing sound. The interior above these cities is held by the Brettii; here is the city Mamertium, and also the forest that produces the best pitch, the Brettian. This forest is called Sila, is both well wooded and well watered, and is seven hundred stadia in length.

[10] After Locri comes the Sagra, a river which has a feminine name. On its banks are the altars of the Dioscuri, near which ten thousand Locri, with Rhegini,51 clashed with one hundred and thirty thousand Crotoniates and gained the victory--an occurrence which gave rise, it is said, to the proverb we use with incredulous people, "Truer than the result at Sagra." And some have gone on to add the fable that the news of the result was reported on the same day52 to the people at the Olympia when the games were in progress, and that the speed with which the news had come was afterwards verified. This misfortune of the Crotoniates is said to be the reason why their city did not endure much longer, so great was the multitude of men who fell in the battle. After the Sagra comes a city founded by the Achaeans, Caulonia, formerly called Aulonia, because of the glen53 which lies in front of it. It is deserted, however, for those who held it were driven out by the barbarians to Sicily and founded the Caulonia there. After this city comes Scylletium, a colony of the Athenians who were with Menestheus (and now called Scylacium).54 Though the Crotoniates held it, Dionysius included it within the boundaries of the Locri. The Scylletic Gulf, which, with the Hipponiate Gulf forms the aforementioned isthmus,55 is named after the city. Dionysius undertook also to build a wall across the isthmus when he made war upon the Leucani, on the pretext, indeed, that it would afford security to the people inside the isthmus from the barbarians outside, but in truth because he wished to break the alliance which the Greeks had with one another, and thus command with impunity the people inside; but the people outside came in and prevented the undertaking.

[11] After Scylletium comes the territory of the Crotoniates, and three capes of the Iapyges; and after these, the Lacinium,56 a temple of Hera, which at one time was rich and full of dedicated offerings. As for the distances by sea, writers give them without satisfactory clearness, except that, in a general way, Polybius gives the distance from the strait to Lacinium as two thousand three hundred stadia,57 and the distance thence across to Cape Iapygia as seven hundred. This point is called the mouth of the Tarantine Gulf. As for the gulf itself, the distance around it by sea is of considerable length, two hundred and forty miles,58 as the Chorographer59 says, but Artemidorus says three hundred and eighty for a man well-girded, although he falls short of the real breadth of the mouth of the gulf by as much.60 The gulf faces the winter-sunrise;61 and it begins at Cape Lacinium, for, on doubling it, one immediately comes to the cities62 of the Achaeans, which, except that of the Tarantini, no longer exist, and yet, because of the fame of some of them, are worthy of rather extended mention.

[12] The first city is Croton, within one hundred and fifty stadia from the Lacinium; and then comes the River Aesarus, and a harbor, and another river, the Neaethus. The Neaethus got its name, it is said, from what occurred there: Certain of the Achaeans who had strayed from the Trojan fleet put in there and disembarked for an inspection of the region, and when the Trojan women who were sailing with them learned that the boats were empty of men, they set fire to the boats, for they were weary of the voyage, so that the men remained there of necessity, although they at the same time noticed that the soil was very fertile. And immediately several other groups, on the strength of their racial kinship, came and imitated them, and thus arose many settlements, most of which took their names from the Trojans; and also a river, the Neaethus, took its appellation from the aforementioned occurrence.63 According to Antiochus, when the god told the Achaeans to found Croton, Myscellus departed to inspect the place, but when he saw that Sybaris was already founded--having the same name as the river near by--he judged that Sybaris was better; at all events, he questioned the god again when he returned whether it would be better to found this instead of Croton, and the god replied to him (Myscellus64 was a hunchback as it happened): "Myscellus, short of back, in searching else outside thy track, thou hunt'st for morsels only; 'tis right that what one giveth thee thou do approve;"65 and Myscellus came back and founded Croton, having as an associate Archias, the founder of Syracuse, who happened to sail up while on his way to found Syracuse.66 The Iapyges used to live at Croton in earlier times, as Ephorus says. And the city is reputed to have cultivated warfare and athletics; at any rate, in one Olympian festival the seven men who took the lead over all others in the stadium-race were all Crotoniates, and therefore the saying "The last of the Crotoniates was the first among all other Greeks" seems reasonable. And this, it is said, is what gave rise to the other proverb, "more healthful than Croton," the belief being that the place contains something that tends to health and bodily vigor, to judge by the multitude of its athletes. Accordingly, it had a very large number of Olympic victors, although it did not remain inhabited a long time, on account of the ruinous loss of its citizens who fell in such great numbers67 at the River Sagra. And its fame was increased by the large number of its Pythagorean philosophers, and by Milo, who was the most illustrious of athletes, and also a companion of Pythagoras, who spent a long time in the city. It is said that once, at the common mess of the philosophers, when a pillar began to give way, Milo slipped in under the burden and saved them all, and then drew himself from under it and escaped. And it is probably because he relied upon this same strength that he brought on himself the end of his life as reported by some writers; at any rate, the story is told that once, when he was travelling through a deep forest, he strayed rather far from the road, and then, on finding a large log cleft with wedges, thrust his hands and feet at the same time into the cleft and strained to split the log completely asunder; but he was only strong enough to make the wedges fall out, whereupon the two parts of the log instantly snapped together; and caught in such a trap as that, he became food for wild beasts.

[13] Next in order, at a distance of two hundred stadia, comes Sybaris, founded by the Achaeans; it is between two rivers, the Crathis and the Sybaris. Its founder was Is of Helice.68 In early times this city was so superior in its good fortune that it ruled over four tribes in the neighborhood, had twenty- five subject cities, made the campaign against the Crotoniates with three hundred thousand men, and its inhabitants on the Crathis alone completely filled up a circuit of fifty stadia. However, by reason of luxury69 and insolence they were deprived of all their felicity by the Crotoniates within seventy days; for on taking the city these conducted the river over it and submerged it. Later on, the survivors, only a few, came together and were making it their home again, but in time these too were destroyed by Athenians and other Greeks, who, although they came there to live with them, conceived such a contempt for them that they not only slew them but removed the city to another place near by and named it Thurii, after a spring of that name. Now the Sybaris River makes the horses that drink from it timid, and therefore all herds are kept away from it; whereas the Crathis makes the hair of persons who bathe in it yellow or white, and besides it cures many afflictions. Now after the Thurii had prospered for a long time, they were enslaved by the Leucani, and when they were taken away from the Leucani by the Tarantini, they took refuge in Rome, and the Romans sent colonists to supplement them, since their population was reduced, and changed the name of the city to Copiae.

[14] After Thurii comes Lagaria, a stronghold, bounded by Epeius and the Phocaeans; thence comes the Lagaritan wine, which is sweet, mild, and extremely well thought of among physicians. That of Thurii, too, is one of the famous wines. Then comes the city Heracleia, a short distance above the sea; and two navigable rivers, the Aciris and the Siris. On the Siris there used to be a Trojan city of the same name, but in time, when Heracleia was colonized thence by the Tarantini, it became the port of the Heracleotes. It is Twenty-four stadia distant from Heracleia and about three hundred and thirty from Thurii. Writers produce as proof of its settlement by the Trojans the wooden image of the Trojan Athene which is set up there--the image that closed its eyes, the fable goes, when the suppliants were dragged away by the Ionians who captured the city; for these Ionians came there as colonists when in flight from the dominion of the Lydians, and by force took the city, which belonged to the Chones,70 and called it Polieium; and the image even now can be seen closing its eyes. It is a bold thing, to be sure, to tell such a fable and to say that the image not only closed its eyes (just as they say the image in Troy turned away at the time Cassandra was violated) but can also be seen closing its eyes; and yet it is much bolder to represent as brought from Troy all those images which the historians say were brought from there; for not only in the territory of Siris, but also at Rome, at Lavinium, and at Luceria, Athene is called "Trojan Athena," as though brought from Troy. And further, the daring deed of the Trojan women is current in numerous places, and appears incredible, although it is possible. According to some, however, both Siris and the Sybaris which is on the Teuthras71 were founded by the Rhodians. According to Antiochus, when the Tarantini were at war with the Thurii and their general Cleandridas, an exile from Lacedaemon, for the possession of the territory of Siris, they made a compromise and peopled Siris jointly, although it was adjudged the colony of the Tarantini; but later on it was called Heracleia, its site as well as its name being changed.

[15] Next in order comes Metapontium, which is one hundred and forty stadia from the naval station of Heracleia. It is said to have been founded by the Pylians who sailed from Troy with Nestor; and they so prospered from farming, it is said, that they dedicated a golden harvest72 at Delphi. And writers produce as a sign of its having been founded by the Pylians the sacrifice to the shades of the sons of Neleus.73 However, the city was wiped out by the Samnitae. According to Antiochus: Certain of the Achaeans were sent for by the Achaeans in Sybaris and resettled the place, then forsaken, but they were summoned only because of a hatred which the Achaeans who had been banished from Laconia had for the Tarantini, in order that the neighboring Tarantini might not pounce upon the place; there were two cities, but since, of the two, Metapontium was nearer74 to Taras,75 the newcomers were persuaded by the Sybarites to take Metapontium and hold it, for, if they held this, they would also hold the territory of Siris, whereas, if they turned to the territory of Siris, they would add Metapontium to the territory of the Tarantini, which latter was on the very flank of Metapontium; and when, later on, the Metapontians were at war with the Tarantini and the Oenotrians of the interior, a reconciliation was effected in regard to a portion of the land--that portion, indeed, which marked the boundary between the Italy of that time and Iapygia.76 Here, too, the fabulous accounts place Metapontus,77 and also Melanippe the prisoner and her son Boeotus.78 In the opinion of Antiochus, the city Metapontium was first called Metabum and later on its name was slightly altered, and further, Melanippe was brought, not to Metabus, but to Dius,79 as is proved by a hero-temple of Metabus, and also by Asius the poet, when he says that Boeotus was brought forth

"in the halls of Dius by shapely Melanippe,"80
meaning that Melanippe was brought to Dius, not to Metabus. But, as Ephorus says, the colonizer of Metapontium was Daulius, the tyrant of the Crisa which is near Delphi. And there is this further account, that the man who was sent by the Achaeans to help colonize it was Leucippus, and that after procuring the use of the place from the Tarantini for only a day and night he would not give it back, replying by day to those who asked it back that he had asked and taken it for the next night also, and by night that he had taken and asked it also for the next day.
Next in order comes Taras and Iapygia; but before discussing them I shall, in accordance with my original purpose, give a general description of the islands that lie in front of Italy; for as from time to time I have named also the islands which neighbor upon the several tribes, so now, since I have traversed Oenotria from beginning to end, which alone the people of earlier times called Italy, it is right that I should preserve the same order in traversing Sicily and the islands round about it.


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1 Now Licosa.

2 Poseidium, now ***** Della Licosa.

3 Antiochus Syracusanus, the historian. Cp. Hdt. 1.167.

4 The Latin form is "Hales" (now the Alento).

5 The Greek inhabitants of Italy were called "Italiotes."

6 There is a word-play here which cannot be brought out in translation: the word for "people" in Greek is "laos."

7 Literally, "laoi."

8 The Adriatic.

9 The old name of Tarentum.

10 "Barbarized," in the sense of "non-Greek" (cp. 5. 4. 4 and 5. 4. 7).

11 That is, his work entitled "On the (Homeric) Catalogue of Ships" (cp. 1. 2. 24).

12 Also spelled Segesta and Egesta.

13 Between the coastlines on the Tyrrhenian and Sicilian Seas.

14 According to Paus. 6.6.2 the oracle bade the people annually to give the hero to wife the fairest maiden in Temesa.

15 "Merciless" is an emendation. Some read "disagreeable." According to Aelian Var. Hist. 8.18, the popular saying was applied to those who in pursuit of profit overreached themselves (so Plutarch Prov. 31). But Eustathius (note on Iliad 1.185) quotes "the geographer" (i.e., Strabo; see note 1, p. 320) as making the saying apply to "those who are unduly wroth, or very severe when they should not be."

16 Hom. Od. 1.184

17 Cp. 6. 3. 4 and footnote.

18 The oracle, quoted by Casaubon from some source unknown to subsequent editors was:

Aiakidź, prophulaxo molein Acherousion hudōr
Pandosiźn d' hothi toi thanatos peprōmenos esti
Source unknown. "Son of Aeacus, beware to go to the Acherusian water and Pandosia, where it is fated you will die."
19 i.e., Persephone.

20 The "Siciliotes" were Sicilian Greeks, as distinguished from native Sicilians.

21 Now Tropea. But in fact the turn towards the west begins immediately after Hipponium.

22 Hom. Od. 10.2ff.

23 Strabo's "Metaurus" and "second Metaurus" are confusing. Kramer, Meineke, and others wish to emend the text so as to make the "second" river refer to Crataeis or some other river. But we should have expected Strabo to mention first the Medma (now the Mesima), which was much closer to Medma than the Metaurus (now the Marro), and to which he does not refer at all. Possibly he thought both rivers were called Metaurus (cp. Müller, Ind. Var. Lectionis, p. 975), in which case "the second Metaurus" is the Metaurus proper. The present translator, however, believes that Strabo, when he says "second Metaurus," alludes to the Umbrian Metaurus (5. 2. 10) as the first, and that the copyist, unaware of this fact, deliberately changed "Medma" to Metaurus" in the two previous instances.

24 Now Cape Cavallo.

25 North-east (cp. 1. 2. 21).

26 Altar or temple of Poseidon.

27 Cp. 6. 1. 9.

28 Zancle was the original name of Messana (now Messina) in Sicily. It was colonized and named Messana by the Peloponnesian Messenians (6. 2. 3).

29 Cp. 6. 3. 3. and 8. 4. 9.

30 Cp. Paus. 4.4.1.

31 Anaxilas (also spelled Anaxilaüs) was ruler of Rhegium from 494 to 476 B.C. (Diod. Sic. 11.48).

32 Cp. 6. 2. 4. The Latin name of this Sicilian city was "Murgantia." Livy 10.17 refers to another Murgantia in Samnium.

33 Cp. 1. 3. 19 and the footnote on "rent."

34 At the Strait.

35 Cp. 1. 3. 10 and the footnote.

36 Regium.

37 Dionysius the Elder (b. about 432 B.C., d. 367 B.C.)

38 Diod. Sic. 14.44 merely says that the Assembly of the Rhegini refused him a wife.

39 Apparently in honor of Phoebus (Apollo); for, according to Plut. De Alexandri Virtute, (338 B.C.) Dionysius the Younger called himself the son of Apollo, "offspring of his mother Doris by Phoebus."

40 Literally, "White Rock."

41 The "Ionian Gulf" was the southern "part of what is now called the Adriatic Sea" (2. 5. 20); see 7. 5. 8-9.

42 Literally, the "western Locrians," both city and inhabitants having the same name.

43 Now the Gulf of Salona in the Gulf of Corinth.

44 Croton and Syracuse were founded, respectively, in 710 and 734 B.C. According to Diod. Sic. 4.24, Heracles had unintentionally killed Croton and had foretold the founding of a famous city on the site, the same to be named after Croton.

45 The Greek text, here translated as it stands, is corrupt. The emendations thus far offered yield (instead of the nine English words of the above rendering) either (1) "for the latter were living" (or "had taken up their abode") "there at the same time" or (2) "together with the Tarantini." There seems to be no definite corroborative evidence for either interpretation; but according to Pausanias, "colonies were sent to Croton, and to Locri at Cape Zephyrium, by the Lacedaemonians" (3.3); and "Tarentum is a Lacedaemonian colony" (10. 10). Cp. the reference to the Tarantini in Strabo's next paragraph.

46 Dionysius the Younger was banished thence in 357 B.C.

47 This appears to be an exact quotation, but the translator has been unable to find the reference in extant works. Plato utters a somewhat similar sentiment, however, in the Plat. Rep. 404e-405a.

48 Apparently as to which should perform first.

49 Cp. 6. 1. 6.

50 From Delphi to Rhegium.

51 The Greek, as the English, leaves one uncertain whether merely the Locrian or the combined army amounted to 10,000 men. Justin 20.3 gives the number of the Locrian army as 15,000, not mentioning the Rhegini; hence one might infer that there were 5,000 Rhegini, and Strabo might have so written, for the Greek symbol for 5,000 (,e), might have fallen out of the text.

52 Cicero De Natura Deorum 2.2. refers to this tradition.

53 "Aulon."

54 Cp. Vergil Aen. 3.552.

55 6. 1. 4.

56 The Lacinium derived its name from Cape Lacinium (now Cape Nao), on which it was situated. According to Diod. Sic. 4.24, Heracles, when in this region, put to death a cattle-thief named Lacinius. Hence the name of the cape.

57 Strabo probably wrote "two thousand" and not "one thousand" (see Manner, t. 9. 9, p. 202), and so read Gosselin, Groskurd, Forbiger, Müller-Dübner, and Meineke. Compare Strabo's other quotation (5. 1. 3) from Polybius on this subject. There, as here, unfortunately, the figures ascribed to Polybius cannot be compared with his original statement, which is now lost.

58 240 Roman miles=1,920, or 2,000 (see 7. 7. 4), stadia.

59 See 5. 2. 7, and the footnote.

60 This passage ("although . . . much") is merely an attempt to translate the Greek of the manuscripts. The only variant in the manuscripts is that of "ungirded" for "well-girded." If Strabo wrote either, which is extremely doubtful, we must infer that Artemidorus' figure, whatever it was pertained to the number of days it would take a pedestrian, at the rate, say of 160 stadia (20 Roman miles) per day, to make the journey around the gulf by land. Most of the editors (including Meineke) dismiss the passage as hopeless by merely indicating gaps in the text. Groskurd and C. Müller not only emend words of the text but also fill in the supposed gaps with seventeen and nine words, respectively. Groskurd makes Artemidorus say that a well-girded pedestrian can complete the journey around the gulf in twelve days, that the coasting-voyage around it is 2,000 stadia, and that he leaves for the mouth the same number (700) of stadia assigned by Polybius to the breadth of the mouth of the gulf. But C. Müller writes: "Some make it less, saying 1,380 stadia, whereas Artemidorus makes it as many plus 30 (1,410), in speaking of the breadth of the mouth of the gulf." But the present translator, by making very simple emendations (see critical note 2 on page 38), arrives at the following: Artemidorus says eighty stadia longer (i.e., 2,000) although he falls short of the breadth of the mouth of the gulf by as much (i.e., 700 - 80 = 620). It should be noted that Artemidorus, as quoted by Strabo, always gives distances in terms of stadia, not miles (e.g., 3. 2. 11, 8. 2. 1, 14. 2. 29, et passim), and that his figures at times differ considerably from those of the Chorographer (cp. 6. 3. 10).

61 i.e., south-east.

62 As often Strabo refers to sites of perished cities as cities.

63 The Greek "Neas aethein" means "to burn ships."

64 Ovid Met. 15.20 spells the name "Myscelus," and perhaps rightly; that is, "Mouse-leg" (?).

65 For a fuller account, see Diod. Sic. 8. 17. His version of the oracle is: "Myscellus, short of back, in searching other things apart from god, thou searchest only after tears; what gift god giveth thee, do thou approve."

66 The generally accepted dates for the founding of Croton and Syracuse are, respectively, 710 B.C. and 734 B.C. But Strabo's account here seems to mean that Syracuse was founded immediately after Croton (cp. 6. 2. 4). Cp. also Thucydides 6. 3. 2.

67 Cp. 6. 1 10.

68 The reading, "Is of Helice," is doubtful. On Helice, see 1. 3. 18 and 8. 7. 2.

69 Cp. "Sybarite."

70 Cp. 6. 1. 2.

71 The "Teuthras" is otherwise unknown, except that there was a small river of that name, which cannot be identified, near Cumae (see Propertius 1. 11.11 and Silius Italicus 11.288). The river was probably named after Teuthras, king of Teuthrania in Mysia (see 12. 8. 2). But there seems to be no evidence of Sybarites in that region. Meineke and others are probably right in emending to the "Trais" (now the Trionto), on which, according to Diod. Sic. 12.22, certain Sybarites took up their abode in 445 B.C.

72 An ear, or sheaf, of grain made of gold, apparently.

73 Neleus had twelve sons, including Nestor. All but Nestor were slain by Heracles.

74 The other, of course, was Siris.

75 The old name of Tarentum.

76 i.e., the Metapontians gained undisputed control of their city and its territory, which Antiochus speaks of as a "boundary" (cp. 6. 1. 4 and 6. 3. 1).

77 The son of Sisyphus. His "barbarian name," according to Stephanus Byzantinus and Eustathius, was Metabus.

78 One of Euripides' tragedies was entitled Melanippe the Prisoner; only fragments are preserved. She was the mother of Boeotus by Poseidon.

79 A Metapontian.

80 Asius Fr.

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There are a total of 5 comments on and cross references to this page.

Cross references from The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites (eds. Richard Stillwell, William L. MacDonald, Marian Holland McAllister):
incoronata [ INCORONATA (Pisticci) Basilicata, Italy. ]
kroton [ KROTON (Crotone) Calabria, Italy. ]
sybaris [ SYBARIS Italy. ]
trikastron [ TRIKASTRON (“Pandosia”) Greece. ]


Cross references from Perseus Building Catalog:
Foce del Sele, Temple of Hera [Foce del Sele, Temple of Hera]


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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2007, 01:15:27 pm »

Diodorus Siculus, Library
Fragments of Book 9


I.[1] Solon was the son of Execestides and his family was of Salamis in Attica; and in wisdom and learning he surpassed all the men of his time.1 Being by nature far superior as regards virtue to the rest of men, he cultivated assiduously a virtue that wins applause; for he devoted much time to every branch of knowledge and became practised in every kind of virtue. [2] While still a youth, for instance, he availed himself of the best teachers, and when he attained to manhood he spent his time in the company of the men who enjoyed the greatest influence for their pursuit of wisdom. As a consequence, by reason of his companionship and association with men of this kind, he came to be called one of the Seven Wise Men and won for himself the highest rank in sagacity, not only among the men just mentioned, but also among all who were regarded with admiration.

[3] The same Solon, who had acquired great fame by his legislation, also in his conversations and answers to questions as a private citizen became an object of wonder by reason of his attainments in learning.

[4] The same Solon, although the city2 followed the whole Ionian manner of life and luxury and a carefree existence had made the inhabitants effeminate, worked a change in them by accustoming them to practise virtue and to emulate the deeds of virile folk. And it was because of this that Harmodius and Aristogeiton,3 their spirits equipped with the panoply of his legislation, made the attempt to destroy the rule of the Peisistratidae.4 Const. Exc. 2 (1), p. 217.

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1 The following fragments on the Seven Wise Men may be compared with the fuller accounts in Diogenes Laertius (tr. by Hicks in the L.C.L.).

2 Athens.

3 The famous Tyrannicides of Athens; Harmodius killed Hipparchus, son of Peisistratus. See following note, and Book 10.17 and notes.

4 Peisistratus was tyrant, with one or two interruptions, 560-527 B.C.; his two sons continued the tyranny until the assassination of Hipparchus in 514 and the forced retirement of Hippias in 510.

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Diodorus Siculus. Diodorus of Sicily in Twelve Volumes with an English Translation by C. H. Oldfather. Vol. 4-8. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, Ltd. 1989.
OCLC: 24758311
ISBN: 0674994132, 0674994221, 0674994396, 0674994280, 0674994647


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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2007, 01:15:55 pm »

(CONTINUED}

quote:
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II.[1] Croesus,1 the king of the Lydians, who was possessed of great military forces and had purposely amassed a large amount of silver and gold, used to call to his court the wisest men from among the Greeks, spend some time in their company, and then send them away with many presents, he himself having been greatly aided thereby toward a life of virtue. And on one occasion he summoned Solon, and showing him his military forces and his wealth he asked him whether he thought there was any other man more blest than he. [2] And Solon replied, with the freedom of speech customary among lovers of wisdom, that no man while yet living was blest; for the man who waxes haughty over his prosperity and thinks that he has Fortune as his helpmeet does not know whether she will remain with him to the last. Consequently, he continued, we must look to the end of life, and only of the man who has continued until then to be fortunate may we properly say that he is blest. [3] And at a later time, when Croesus had been taken prisoner by Cyrus and was about to be burned upon a great pyre,2 he recalled the answer Solon had given him. And so, while the fire was already blazing about him, he kept continually calling the name of Solon. [4] And Cyrus sent men to find out the reason for his continual calling of the name of Solon; and on learning the cause Cyrus changed his purpose, and since he believed that Solon's reply was the truth, he ceased regarding Croesus with contempt, put out the burning pyre, saved the life of Croesus, and counted him henceforth as one of his friends.
[5] Solon believed that the boxers and short-distance runners and all other athletes contributed nothing worth mentioning to the safety of states, but that only men who excel in prudence and virtue are able to protect their native lands in times of danger.


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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 01:16:22 pm »

(CONTINUED)

quote:
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IV.[1] Solon, seeing toward the end of his life how Peisistratus, to please the masses, was playing the demagogue and was on the road to tyranny,1 tried at first by arguments to turn him from his intention; and when Peisistratus paid no attention to him, he once appeared in the market-place arrayed in full armour, although he was already a very old man. [2] And when the people, the sight being so incongruous, flocked to him, he called upon the citizens to seize their arms and at once make an end of the tyrant. But no man paid any attention to him, all of them concluding that he was mad and some declaring that he was in his dotage. Peisistratus, who had already gathered a guard of a few spearmen, came up to Solon and asked him, "Upon what resources do you rely that you wish to destroy my tyranny?" And when Solon replied, "Upon my old age," Peisistratus, in admiration of his common sense, did him no harm.
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 01:17:46 pm »

From Atalante:

Quote
Chronos,
Your last post was a long entry from Perseus-Tufts.
If we try to summarize its relevance, it seems to indicate that the primary temple of Poseidon (i.e. the one called Poseidonia) was located at Salerno Italy, and thus near the amazing geological phenomena around Naples, the Phlegrean Fields which exhibit Bradyseism. http://www.mediator.qub.ac.uk/ms/onlinepracticals/Naples/Slides/Bradyseism/Slides/PhlegreanFields.htm

This could be indicating that the metropolis of Atlantis was located in the Phlegrean Fields near Naples.



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From Chronos:
Quote
Interesting, Atalante, however that would seem to conflict with other passages of Diodorus wherein he places his 'Atalantes' along the coastline of northwest Africa during their wars with the Amazons.
(Do you have those exact passages, by the way, so we can better study them..?)


From Atalante:


Quote
I was referring to your extract from Strabo.
(Not from Diodorus.)
re-quote:
Strabo, Geography

I.[1] After the mouth of the Silaris one comes to Leucania, and to the temple of the Argoan Hera, built by Jason, and near by, within fifty stadia, to Poseidonia. Thence, sailing out past the gulf, one comes to Leucosia,1 an island, from which it is only a short voyage across to the continent. The island is named after one of the Sirens, who was cast ashore here after the Sirens had flung themselves, as the myth has it, into the depths of the sea. In front of the island lies that promontory2 which is opposite the Sirenussae and with them forms the Poseidonian Gulf.
endquote


The Poseidoneia temple is considered to be built by Greeks, to augment a Hera temple at the same site. When the Romans rose to power, they ignored the Greek temples in that area.



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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2007, 01:18:23 pm »

From Akata:

Quote
records exist before plato but are well hidden from the humans,i sean all in my astral state,i am realy mad about zahi
hawass that he tryies to hide what they
found,he this that is not worthy distrupt
hi ensters,!! but what lies under the sphinx
and giza piramid can change the humanity
i now there is a book that tells how to
cure most of common disises that can be
cured by modern medicine like aids and hiv
an the technology left by the atlantien
survivers,like hover cells that enable a unit
to escape the gravity of a planet
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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2007, 01:19:03 pm »

Atalante:

Quote
After some more clicking around in links that are given in Perseus-Tufts, I can see that I should have said that Poseidonia was located in Leucania (not its northern neighbor Campania/Salerno).
However, my basic point now seems even more clear than when I posted yesterday.

The Greeks were expanding westward around 1300 BC. For example, the myth of Oenotrias sends Arcadian people westward into Leucania, in the "toe" of Italy. Likewize, the myth of Icarus and Daedalus places a greek community even farther north-west, at Cumae (near Naples) in the time of king Minos (13th century BC). Roman mythology agrees with this general scenario, and uses the name Evander as the equivalent of Oenotrias. Evander was said to have settled in a cave at the location where Rome would later be founded.

But then the dark age of Greece arrived. During the dark age, Greeks lost control of Leucania. It was not until 700 BC that the Greeks put together another wave of expansion, with the Phocaeans re-colonizing Leucania, as a stepping stone to their colony at Marseilles France.

Perseus-Tufts explains this in their article about Leucania. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0062%3Aid%3Dlucania

In the link listed above, a warlike people named Samnites reportedly conquored the Oenotrians, during the Greek dark age. Presumably, these warlike people could have been mentioned to Solon by the Priests of Egypt. That would be consistent with a comment in the Critias dialogue where it is reported that the Priests of Egypt were talking about the era of Theseus (=Minos/Daedalus) when those Egyptian priests explained the Atlantean war to Solon.

Up to the 14th century BC, Greek sailors had been blockaded in the west by the Straits of Messina, which were depicted in Greek myths as the man-killing monsters, Scylla and Charybdis.

Evidently those proto-Greeks' inability to sail through the "straits of Messina" in the 13th century BC was functionally equivalent to the 6th century BC blockade which Greeks encountered at the straits of Gibralter (called "Pillars of Hercules").


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« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2007, 01:19:48 pm »

dhill757:

Quote
Here are some more references. I haven't had the chance to research them all yet, though..!
http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1598


quote:
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The Date of 11,600 Before Present
* Plato affirms that the demise of Atlantis took place "9,000 years before the times of Solon". Now, Solon visited Egypt at about 600 BC, which adds to a total of about 11,600 BP (Before Present). Now, this is precisely the date of the cataclysmic ending of the Pleistocene Ice Age, as given by the geologic record. So, we are led to conclude that Plato's date is correct, and that the Greek philosopher indeed knew what he was talking about.

* Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian, tells us that 2,600 years before his time, certain navigants crossed beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and dealt with the Tartessians. Now, these Tartessians — who are often identified with the Atlanteans — had, he affirms, written records of their history that amounted to 7,000 years before their own time. Again, this adds to a date of about 11,600 BP, precisely as preconized by Plato for the Atlantean cataclysm, for Strabo flourished in the times of Christ.

* Arnobius, a Christian bishop of the fourth century AD, told in one of his sermons concerning the catastrophes that have previously destroyed human civilization, that "ten thousand years ago, a vast number of men burst forth from the island which is called Atlantis of Neptune, as Plato tells us, and utterly ruined and blotted out countless nations." Again, the date given by Arnobius turns out to be precisely the one of 11,600 BC. Though Arnobius' relation seems to be based on that of Plato, he had access to sources now lost that apparently confirmed Plato's disclosure in an independent way.

* Manetho, the Egyptian historian, places the start of the dynasty of the "Spirits of the Dead" 5,813 years before Menes, the first king of unified Egypt. Now, Menes flourished between 3,100 and 3,800 BC or perhaps, even earlier, as some specialists claim. Again, this gives a date between 11,000 and 11,600 BC, in close agreement with the one given by Plato. It is quite probable that the "Spirits of the Dead" of Manetho were indeed the survivors of the Atlantean cataclysm, the same dead ancestors that the Romans called Lemures or Lares.

* The Hindu traditions on the Yugas, as well as the similar ones of the Persians, hold that the eras of mankind last about 12,000 years each. On the other hand, these and other traditions maintain that we now enter, in the year 2,000, the final millennium of the present era, which started just after the demise of Atlantis. So, once again, we are led to the conclusion that the Atlantean cataclysm took place between 11,000 and 12,000 years ago.

* The Codex Troano of the Mayas, translated by Augustus le Plongeon, the celebrated Mayanist, recounts the tragedy of Lemurian Atlantis, which sunk away in a terrible cataclysm. It tells that millions of people died in the cataclysm, and that the event took place "8,060 years before the writing of this book." Supposing that the codex was written at about 1,500 BC, the start of the pre-classic Era, when the Mayan (Olmec) civilization sprung, we get a date for the cataclysm of about 11,600 BP. This is in perfect agreement with the date given by Plato. As is known, the Mayas originally came to America from an overseas paradise called Aztlan which sunk away underseas. Aztlan in visibly no other thing than Plato's Atlantis. Except that Aztlan was located beyond the Pacific, rather than the Atlantic Ocean.

* The Ramayana — the book that tells the destruction of Lanka by Rama and Hanumant — affirms that this war took place some 10,000 years before its own times. Now, the experts agree that the Ramayana was written at about 300 BC by Valmiki. Thus, the destruction of Lanka — which is no other thing than the one of Atlantis — took place at about 12,000 BP or so, in fair agreement with the date given by Plato.

* Hindu traditions affirm that the first sangham (poetic academy) lasted for 4,400 years. The second one for 3,700 years. And the third and last one, which ended at about the start of the Christian era, lasted for 1,850 years. This yields at total of 11,900 BP for the start of the sanghams which, tradition holds, began shortly after the Flood. Considering that the Flood corresponds to the cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis, this Hindu tradition on the poetic academics confirms the date of Plato with excellent accuracy.

* The end of the Pleistocene Ice Age — the date of whose closely coincides with the one of 11,600 BP given by Plato for Atlantis' demise — also marks the rise of agriculture, of city-building and of the Neolithic both in the Old and the New Worlds. According to a universal tradition, civilization was brought just about everywhere by white, blond, blue-eyed, titanic giants. These giants are no other than the Atlanteans fleeing their destroyed Paradise and moving into their new homelands in order to make a fresh start. As if to confirm this worldwide tradition, it is at this date that we start to find fossil skeletons of Cro-Magnoid men, so often equated with the Atlanteans. And these are found precisely the sites connected with the rise of the Neolithic and of Civilization

* Arthur Posnansky — the German-Bolivian archaeologist who long studied Tiahuanaco, the site of origin of the Incan civilization of Peru and Bolivia — concluded that this region of the Andes was formerly a seaport which suffered an uplift of about 3,000 meters. This cataclysm happened at about 11 or 12 thousand years ago, precisely the epoch of the Atlantean demise.

* Bruce Heezen, the famous oceanographer of the Lamont Geological Observatory, showed that sea-level underwent a rise of about 100 to 150 meters worldwide at about 11,600 BP. This rise resulted from the meltwaters of the Ice Age glaciers that covered a substantial portion of the continents in the temperate regions of the world and which were up to a few kilometers in thickness. Heezen also pointed out that this rise of sea-level was sufficient to drown most low-lying coastal regions of the planet. In particular, the region that now forms the South China Sea averages under 60 meters or so in depth. Thus, this region — precisely the one which we preconize to have been the site of Atlantis — got submerged by the rising waters, just as affirmed by Plato.

* Turning to Egyptian traditions, the source on which Plato bases his legend of Atlantis. The famous zodiac of Dendera — which was copied from far older versions whose origins are lost in the night of times — indicates that the constellation Leo lay at the vernal point in the epoch of its start. Now, the era of Leo centers at about 11,720 BC, in close agreement with the date given by Plato for the end of Atlantis and the start of the present era. What event but the cataclysmic end of the Pleistocene Ice Age and the consequent demise of Atlantis could better serve for the new start of times marked in that famous zodiac?

* Makrisi, a famous Arab historian of Egypt, affirms that "fire issued from the sign of Leo to destroy the world." This conflagration apparently confirms the above connection between the star of Dendera's zodiac and the Atlantean cataclysm disclosed by Plato. The Arabs conquered Egypt, and inherited its magnificent culture and traditions, and it is quite likely that Makrisi was basing himself on them.

* A Coptic papyrus indicates the same date for the Atlantean cataclysm. According to it: "the Flood will take place when the heart of the Lion (Aldebaran) enters the start of the head of Cancer". In other words, the papyrus affirms that when the vernal point coincided with the center of Leo — an event that took place some 11,600 years ago — the Flood took place, destroying Atlantis and ending the Pleistocene Ice Age, which had lasted for some 2.5 millions of years. In the terrible event, a great many species of mammals and other creatures became extinct all over the world. This fact attests the universal character of the tragedy.


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« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2007, 01:20:43 pm »

Absonite:


Quote
Atalante,
While reading your post regarding the "Phlegrean Fields which exhibit Bradyseism" and the dating of the eruption of Vesuvius known as the "Campanian Ignimbrite" and dated 35,000 years ago, I find that it falls in line with what the Urantia papers (circa 1934) dates the sinking of Atlantis/Eden and the description of the event in the Mediterranean. Out of curiousity, do you know when it was discovered by science that the Vesuvius eruption occurred about 35,000 years ago?


"34,000 years ago with.....the violent activity of the surrounding volcanoes and the submergence of the Sicilian land bridge to Africa, the eastern floor of the Mediterranean Sea sank, carrying down beneath the waters the whole of the [Cyprus] peninsula. Concomitant with this vast submergence the coast line of the eastern Mediterranean was greatly elevated."


"About the time of these climatic changes in Africa, England separated from the continent, and Denmark arose from the sea, while the isthmus of Gibraltar, protecting the western basin of the Mediterranean, gave way as the result of an earthquake, quickly raising this inland lake to the level of the Atlantic Ocean. Presently the Sicilian land bridge submerged, creating one sea of the Mediterranean and connecting it with the Atlantic Ocean. This cataclysm of nature flooded scores of human settlements and occasioned the greatest loss of life by flood in all the world's history."


Atalante,

I think I found an answer to my own question, which creates further mystery, according to the references, 1982 was the date and the Urantia papers predate this scientific discovery by nearly 50 years. Now, isn't that something to ponder.

"Period I: The beginning of this period has not yet been well defined, though rocks which are older than the Campanian Ignimbrite can be seen within the cliffs of Mt.Procida, the hill of Cuma and the northern border of the Quarto and Soccavo plains. An approximate age for the Cuma lava domes of 37 ka was calculated by Cassignol and Gillot ( 1982) and an age of >42 ka was deduced from the pyroclastic deposits of Tuff at Torre Franco (Alessio et. al., 1973). The oldest dated exposures of 60 ka using 40Ar/39Ar isotopes can be seen on the slopes which border the northern edge of the Quarto plain. This period ended with the eruption of the Campanian Ignimbrite (37 ka) which covered approximately 30,000 km2 with 150 km3 of magma with a composition which ranges from trachyte to phonolitic-trachyte; this event is suggested to have been the biggest event within the Mediterranean area over the past 200 ka (Barberi et. al., 1978), and it has also been suggested that the epicentre might have migrated during the course of the eruption (Civetta et. al., 1997)."
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« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2007, 01:21:50 pm »

Atalante:

Quote
Absonite,
I agree that the volcanic activity in the vicinity of Naples is thought provoking.
There is a fault line which extends out into the sea from the vicinity of the Phlegraen Fields. Two islands lie along that fault line. (note to Chronos regarding Gigantomachy: I think Greek myths say some of the Giants were buried under those 2 small islands.)

Here is a link about the island of Ischia. As you can see in the link, a scientist named Rittmann wrote a paper in 1930 which tied a few eruptions on Ischia to dates around 37K BC, and also declared that these eruptions were among the largest in the Mediterranean region.

quote from: http://www.essc.psu.edu/~bjhaupt/specials/iamg98/ischia.html
Volcanic Outline

The timing of the initial volcanism on the island is not known; the oldest dated exposures that belong to the island complex are related to small trachytic and phonolitic domes in the south eastern part of the island with ages of 150 and 74 ka. Since 55 ka, on the basis of stratiraphical, complsitional etc., techniques three periods of activity have been identified (Civetta et. al., 1991) each of which were characterised by the arrival of new, less differentiated magma.

Period I (from 55 to 33 ka): This period is marked by the eruptions of the, now uplifted, Monte trachytic green Tuff (Epomeo Green Tuff) which partially filled the central depression. Rittmann (1930) suggested that these were amongst the most powerful eruptions in the Mediterranean area. Sr and Zr data suggest that the magma chamber was zoned through a process of fractional crystallisation.

Period II (from 28 to 18 ka): This period is marked by the re-eruption of the Grotta di Terra trachybasaltic magma along the south-eastern coast. The significant variation in both chemical and isotopic composition of the erupted magmas leads to a model which implies that there was an arrival of new basic magma into the system, followed by a progressive differentiation and mixing with the resident trachytic magma.

Period III (from 10 ka to 1302 A.D.): This period is marked by effusive and hydromagmatic eruptions within the depression east of Mt.Epomeo. Most of the magma which erupted during this period was trachytic and subordinately latitic in nature with a negative correlation between chemical and isotopic compositions.
endquote

I expect that the 1930 paper by Rittmann may have influenced the people who organized Urantia.
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