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Atlantis References that Predate or are Contemporary with Plato

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Chronos
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« Reply #105 on: December 20, 2007, 03:06:11 pm »

Gwen Parker

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My criticism of Crete is not emotional, but rather because the facts don't back it up. My critcism of you is even less emotional, because it's clear you haven't read Plato, and are very selective of which facts you include in your theory, and are pitching a theory that has always had only vague, superficial comparisons to Plato at best. In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.
Concerning Plato's visit to India, I have read of this several times, but here is what fellow forum member Atalante told you on 12/08/04. If you don't believe me perhaps you will believe him:


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Jshsitar,
That was an interesting suggestion. Plato visted India when he was young. My copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, translated by Evans-Wentz, lists the name Plato on 8 pages in its index. Consequently, there is good reason to believe that Plato obtained some of the basic novelties in his so-called Platonic philosophy from earlier oriental literature.
The Greek word utopia is an adequate translation for a "place which is not a place".

The link which you cited contains additional info which can be regarded as relevant to both the general topic of Atlantis, and more specifically relevant to why Plato connected Poseidon to a "utopia" of Atlantis. This info involves the "pole star", which many ancient peoples recognized (and a hypothetical anti-polestar which might exist below sealevel).

quote from: http://www.innerlab.com/atmanet/index.cfm?artID=846[/QUOTE]


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« Reply #106 on: December 20, 2007, 03:06:32 pm »

Gwen Parker

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quote:
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To deny similarities between Atlantis and local Mediterranean cultures is also ridiculous.
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I couldn't agree more. And it is also true that EVERY culture of the Mediterranean also had a bull culture to some extent. It would be ridiculous to ignore that and think that Crete was alone in that.

Like every Minoan theorist, I noticed you don't use any facts to back your theory up, just opinons. The only facts here seem to be supplied by me and again, are well known. Let me make the case for both sides now, since, in any event, all you seem to be saying is "trust me."


quote:
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http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/theories.html
For

* The island of Thera, a volcanic island, was destroyed around 1500 BC
by an explosion which caused more than half of the island to sink into
the sea.
* Artifacts found on the island indicate a sophisticated culture,
probably part of the Minoan Civilization.
* There is evidence pointing to trade between the Minoans and Egyptians.
The Egyptians would certainly have been aware of the destruction or at
least the tremedous damage done to one of their trading partners.
* We'll examine this possibility in more detail in upcoming issues of
Enigma.


Against

* Proponents of this theory claim that Plato's date of 9000 years ago
should really have been 900 years ago: somewhere along the line either
Solon or Plato made a mistake. If the story was 900 years ago it would
place Atlantis in the time frame of the Minoan civilization on Crete and
Thera. Conveniently overlooked in this thinking is that in Timaeus the
priest tells Solon that ancient Athens and Atlantis preceeded Egypt by a
thousand years. Egypt however existed and was known to have existed
since long before 1500 BC, the time of Crete and Thera. The times just
don't add up unless you assume the Egyptian priest was ignorant of his
own recorded history.


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Yet another reason I didn't even think of earlier. To which I will also add once again, Crete is wrong in terms of geography, location, size, development, time period, and culture (among other things).

[This message has been edited by Gwen Parker (edited 01-02-2005).]


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« Reply #107 on: December 20, 2007, 03:06:51 pm »

jshsitar
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First, let me correct a perception that you you continue to uphold. That is to say, you say that people who do not agree with you or who hold to the Minoan theory, have not read Plato. I have read Plato and have come to the conclusion that the Atlantis is a work of Historical Fiction. You may see it otherwise and you are entitled to you opinion.
If you think that this theory has "always had only vague, superficial comparisons to Plato at best" then you are making an emotive value judgement. This is because the theory hold that Plato did not have accurate information and therefor you might say that his story is vague and inaccuate. What do you have to say about this point. Or do you swallow Plato vebatum much as a Fundamentalist does with the Bible.

As for
"In other words, you don't know what you're talking about."
This type of profound statement is unworthy of you!

And
"Concerning Plato's visit to India, I have read of this several times, but here is what fellow forum member Atalante told you on 12/08/04. If you don't believe me perhaps you will believe him:"

I don't believe either of you. Plato is not mentioned in the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" (which you obviouly have not read). So check your "facts." I checked through a few biographical sketches on Plato and none of them mentioned anything about him going to India.



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« Reply #108 on: December 20, 2007, 03:07:11 pm »

jshsitar
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Re:
"Proponents of this theory claim that Plato's date of 9000 years ago
should really have been 900 years ago: somewhere along the line either
Solon or Plato made a mistake. If the story was 900 years ago it would
place Atlantis in the time frame of the Minoan civilization on Crete and
Thera. Conveniently overlooked in this thinking is that in Timaeus the
priest tells Solon that ancient Athens and Atlantis preceeded Egypt by a
thousand years. Egypt however existed and was known to have existed
since long before 1500 BC, the time of Crete and Thera. The times just
don't add up unless you assume the Egyptian priest was ignorant of his
own recorded history."
I think that if we examine Plato and Greek civilisation of his era from the point of view of history, we could say that they were "ignorant" of Minoan civilisation. It is true that they had myths and legends but this does not amount to history. You choose to take a statement in a work of Historical Fiction and pass this off as fact. How do we know that Solon really heard anything about Atlantis from any Egyptian Priest. Maybe he just went there to see the pyramids!

As for:
"Yet another reason I didn't even think of earlier. To which I will also add once again, Crete is wrong in terms of geography, location, size, development, time period, and culture (among other things)."

I have covered this at least 5 times.



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« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2007, 03:07:35 pm »

jshsitar
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Regarding Plato going to India, this is what was posted:
"That was an interesting suggestion [jshsitar's]. Plato visted India when he was young. My copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, translated by Evans-Wentz, lists the name Plato on 8 pages in its index. Consequently, there is good reason to believe that Plato obtained some of the basic novelties in his so-called Platonic philosophy from earlier oriental literature."

What Evan-Wentz does is point out some similarities between the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" and "The Republic." This includes ideas on Reincarnation and between birth experiences. In this context, Plato is mentioned in the commentary on the TBOTD, NOT in the text itself.



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« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2007, 03:07:55 pm »

Gwen Parker

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Jshsitar,
I did a search for you and this is what I came up with on Plato's eastern journeys:


quote:
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After the death of Socrates, Plato went to Megara and joined the
Socratic School of Euclid (not the famous geometer, who lived in
Alexandria in the time of Ptolemy I, but a disciple of Socrates who
excelled in logical disputation). From there he went to Cyrene, where
Theodorus instructed him in mathematics. Thence to southern Italy, where
he studied the science of numbers under the three most famous
Pythagoreans of the day. Then into Egypt, to receive the instructions of
the learned doctors and priests of that ancient land. Some say that he
visited Persia and Babylonia, where he was initiated into the Chaldean
Mysteries. Others say that he went as far as India.
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ancientlandmarks/Plato.html[/QUOTE]
Again, not conclusive proof, but this, plus the Tibetan Book of the Dead reference would seem to at least suggest he did.



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« Reply #111 on: December 20, 2007, 03:08:15 pm »

Gwen Parker

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Jshsitar,
I did a search for you and this is what I came up with on Plato's eastern journeys:


quote:
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After the death of Socrates, Plato went to Megara and joined the
Socratic School of Euclid (not the famous geometer, who lived in
Alexandria in the time of Ptolemy I, but a disciple of Socrates who
excelled in logical disputation). From there he went to Cyrene, where
Theodorus instructed him in mathematics. Thence to southern Italy, where
he studied the science of numbers under the three most famous
Pythagoreans of the day. Then into Egypt, to receive the instructions of
the learned doctors and priests of that ancient land. Some say that he
visited Persia and Babylonia, where he was initiated into the Chaldean
Mysteries. Others say that he went as far as India.
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ancientlandmarks/Plato.html[/QUOTE]
Again, not conclusive proof, but this, plus the Tibetan Book of the Dead reference would seem to at least suggest he did.


[This message has been edited by Gwen Parker (edited 01-04-2005).]


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« Reply #112 on: December 20, 2007, 03:08:45 pm »

Gwen Parker

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First, let me correct a perception that you you continue to uphold. That is to say, you say that people who do not agree with you or who hold to the Minoan theory, have not read Plato.
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Maybe I should have said "skimmed Plato," is that more fitting? I don’t mean to be insulting, but many Atlantis researchers know the details by heart. The size and location of Atlantis alone would seem to preclude Crete as a candidate


quote:
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I have read Plato and have come to the conclusion that the Atlantis is a work of Historical Fiction.
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And you're entitled to your opinion, which is all it happens to be, an opinon.


quote:
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If you think that this theory has "always had only vague, superficial comparisons to Plato at best" then you are making an emotive value judgement.
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Again, no I am not. I am making a statement based on the fact of geography, time period, location, culture, size and historical records (what we know of them). The mere fact that you can't see that is proof of the fact that you haven't read (excuse me, skimmed) Plato.


quote:
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Or do you swallow Plato vebatum much as a Fundamentalist does with the Bible.
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No, I do not. But unlike the Minoan theorists I will not pick and choose which details to select and which ones to discard. One thing is clear, it was beyond the Pillars of Hercules, in the Atlantic Ocean, something that Crete clearly is not.


quote:
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Plato is not mentioned in the "Tibetan Book of the Dead" (which you obviously have not read). So check your "facts." I checked through a few biographical sketches on Plato and none of them mentioned anything about him going to India.
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Plato is said to have traveled to India as a young man. In fact, the Greeks were said to have had connections with India. Concerning the Book of the Dead, Atalante is one of the best researchers here, so I would take his reference as "true.”


quote:
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I think that if we examine Plato and Greek civilization of his era from the point of view of history, we could say that they were "ignorant" of Minoan civilization. It is true that they had myths and legends but this does not amount to history. You choose to take a statement in a work of Historical Fiction and pass this off as fact. How do we know that Solon really heard anything about Atlantis from any Egyptian Priest. Maybe he just went there to see the pyramids!
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Again, that's simply a matter of opinion.

Solon's trip to Egypt is a matter of historical record. Of course, he also probably wanted to see the pyramids. But the Temple of Neith did exist, pillars, such as have been described have been found in the Temple of Karnak, and even if the Greeks didn't know about Minoan Crete (and, of course they did, it being on their doorstep), the Egyptians would have also had to have been involved in this case of mistaken identity and most likely would not be as they kept very good records.

(Incidentally, Crantor, a commentator of Plato, reportedly travelled to Sais and confirmed the existence of the pillars in the Temple of Neith that had the Atlantis story on them. If true, this again would seemingly not only blow the Minoan theory out of the water, but the idea of Plato writing "historical fiction" as well.)

I've been waiting for you to bring up the Sea Peoples. They were nearly as old as the Minoans and the Egyptians, under Ramses, had clear records of them. There would be no mistakes. Egyptian history dates back well before the Minoans had their trade empire. They would not be involved in any Egyptian legend about a lost island in the Atlantic.

So all we have than is whether we can trust Plato when he says the story is "true."


quote:
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To which I will also add once again, Crete is wrong in terms of geography, location, size, development, time period, and culture (among other things)." I have covered this at least 5 times.
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Yes, covered with opinions! You say that Plato was writing "historical fiction," but there is no evidence of that. No notes concerning Timaeus or Critias, no outlines, no private diary wherein Plato tells us the truth. In fact, the only word he gives on the topic is in the dialogues themselves wherein, several times, he says that it is "true." (See my earlier post).

If you want to say that "true" means "false," and that Plato really means Crete when he talks about Atlantis, I would say to you what I would say to any other Minoan theorist: prove it. You can't because there isn't any proof.

I am not saying that to be facetious, I have made a study Minoan culture. I am saying that because there is no proof. Wrong geography, location, size, development, time period, and culture (among other things).



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« Reply #113 on: December 20, 2007, 03:09:07 pm »

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I think everyone`s forgetting, that Plato places one of the kingdoms in Atlantis as Gade in his times.And the only city or place named Gade in Plato`s time was in Spain. The mysterious Tartesso of Spain is the only place that has not been found.
http://digilander.libero.it/theghost63/Tartessus/Tartessus_eng.htm


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« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2007, 03:09:40 pm »

Gwen Parker

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Jshsitar,
Here is a very good description of Atlantis. Please let me know which geological features (if any) match Minoan Crete. Take as much time as you need to. (Joke)


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They were a literate and intelligent society. They had written works and laws, and often covered their materials with copper, bronze or gold, but not iron. Finally, they had grand architecture. The metropolis was surrounded by 50 stadia in radius, or about 10,000 meters/yards. The stone quarried was black, red and white. This formation sound like ancient Stonehenge-like formations.
It is said in the Critias: "Bordering on the sea and extending through the center of the whole island was a plain, which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and highly fertile; and moreover, near the plain, over against its center, at a distance of about 50 stades [i.e. 10,000 yards] there stood a mountain that was low on all sides... and to {make the hill,} broke it off all round about; and he made circular belts of sea and land enclosing one another alternately, some greater, some smaller, two being of land and three being of sea, which he carved as if it were out of the midst of the island; and the belts were at even distances at all sides so as to be impassable by man." The rest of the story describes the canals that surrounded the temple to Poseidon in the center. There was a canal " large enough to allow the largest ships of the time" to come in one way. The city is described as being completely surrounded by water (it was an island) and had a radius of about six miles.

The next passage (which is too long to be put here) describes THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, indicating that the Ancient Metropolis and the rest of the country were two separate islands. Although it is not crystal clear, an Plato himself is not quite satisfied with it (he says "it seems incredible that it should be so large at [Solon's] account states"). Nevertheless, some points are clear. The plain surrounding the Royal City is approx. rectangular with a trench dug around enclosing the plain, being 10,000 stades (1,830 km/1,136 miles) in length, and the greater side of the plain 3,000 stades (550 km/340 miles) long. Therefore the 2,000 stades mentioned by Plato refer to the distance from the center of the plain to the sea, as some writers maintain.

Next, the plain surrounding the city does not appear to be the same one close to the Ancient Metropolis since this lay in the center of the island 50 stade (9.5 km/6 miles) from the sea. Whereas the plain surrounding the Royal City was 3,000 stades (550 km/340 miles) long and 2,000 stades (365 km/227 miles) wide. Finally the plain surrounding the City was enclosed by mountains whose slopes reached the sea. These mountains were famous, large, and many rich villages among them, and in consequence, the dimensions given by Plato refer only to the plain surrounding the City, and not the whole island.

The next passage in the Critias describes the manpower and division of the land. There were nine other towns on the main island, each being responsible for 10x10 stades (20,000 sq. yds/kms.), and each a manpower allotment of 60,000 soldiers.

The Royal City, as described by Plato in the above passages, was the capital of an area of 3000x2000 stades (550x365 km/340x227 miles). If the other nine cities were about the same size, the whole of Atlantis would be about 30,000x20,000 stades (5,470x3,700 km/3,400x2,300 miles). This is bigger than the Mediterranean Basin! The last major anomaly in location is... where? Critias' accounts noted the Egyptian priests as saying Atlantis was beyond the Pillars of Hercules (which are presently identified as the Strait of Gibraltar, where the Mediterranean meets the Atlantic). Because of the sheer size of the island, it could only be in the unknown ocean to the west. That meant to Plato that the Pillars were at the Straits, and the ocean was of ATLANTIC origin. That is why we call it the Atlantic.

Now the timing. Atlantis was said to have been destroyed 9,000 years before Solon, who lived in 600 BC (that means Atlantis would have been in 9600 BC). Later, the priests are quoted as saying, "But at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, and the whole body of your warriors (Athenians) were swallowed up by the earth and the island of Atlantis was in like manner swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore now the ocean at that spot became impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down.

Summary: Atlantis consisted of TWO islands and possible more, and that one of these was quite small and circular, and the other rectangular and extremely large; Atlantis ended in 9600 BC; it sank into the sea in a day and night.


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« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2007, 03:10:00 pm »

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The citizens of the capitol of Altlantis had to leave the place in one day and one nigth. Which they did, just about 10.000 years ago, according to recently discovered mythology.
This Finnish mythology refering to Atlantis (www.bocksaga.de) are both predatory and contemporary to Plato.

According to this myth the capitol of Altlantis covered an area of 270 km - in radius, giving a diameter of 540 km. That may have been comprehended as "length"...

The big island in question is Fenno-Scandia, before the land rose and made it a penninsula ("nessos"). The small island may be the one at the centre of their capital Hel ("Whole") - called The Island of Oden, being the midle of "The Seven Sun Islands" who still exists, forming a crescent in front of "The Seven Sun Hills". Before the last destruction, only 955 years ago, one could still find the "Seven Sun Temples" - one on each hill - encovering the midpoint, Hel-stad, where the parlament and the capitol city laid. Since the rulers of Rome, anno 600+, started to express themselves as "wHoly". Since then the real Hel-stad (historically representing the Whole Man/the whole I/the Hol-i) became the clerical Rome`s "thorn in the eye", since it would not give up its cultural traditions and political souvereignity. Thus we may understand how the As-people, as the core of all Caucasians, also reigned as the highest protegtor of all legitimate kings on the planet, since these artic king-family enjoyed communications with ALL the tropical kingdoms, in an ongoing tradition since they reconnected with all continents after ice-time. Thus the old articals, and the cradle of the caucasians, - became a basic enemy to the new imperial regime that grew from the 6th century ruins of Rome, to become the largest empire known, ever to have ruled on this planet.
Thats why the destiny of their main competitior - the old Aser - became thoroughly ruthless and distinctive in a campaign that started in the mid 8th century and ended the summer of 1050, by the complete distinction of the legitimate kingfamily of Aser - as well as their cultural centre and capitol - in todays Hel-sinki, Finland.

Then all resistance to the imperial Rome ceased all over Eurasia, - until the closest descendants of the Aser, - the Nordic royals and their respective noble-families - recovered and waited until they got the chance to escape the dominion of the Roman culture - and the grip of the Catholic Tax collectors. With a rare endurance and patience the "evangelic reformation" fianlly became possible, - restoring the royal and millitary souvereignity of the northern Kingdoms, reclaiming cultural freedom as well as independance from foreign taxes, rules and regulations...


But, during the 400 years of "medeval darkness" ALL stories giving clear memories of the old, headon culture were utterly terminated, banned, prohibitted and prosecuted. Thus the old stories of Alt-land-is got lost. Except from as few pages, written by Plato, that "saved" the whole story - about this highly important transition in our history - called Atlantis.

Today we may understand this old mythology -that goes far beyond Plato, however great a protocoller he was.


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« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2007, 03:10:22 pm »

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It is rather incredible that you think that Plato would have gone to India and encountered this highly developed civilisation and then not mentioned it in his own writings. Instead he allegely writes "history" about a civilisation that existed 9000 years before his time. If he went to India and was such a history buff, then why did he not write about India?

I spent 12 years there and have written 2 books on its history and culture. Surely, Plato could have written a paragraph or two.
I know that South Asia writers of that era wrote about Greeks coming to India and discussing philosophy with Buddhist priests.
Check out "The Questions of King Milinda."
"Milinda" possibly was "Menander" who was in India in the latter part of the 2nd century B.C.



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« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2007, 03:10:42 pm »

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Plato's dialogues seem to focus mainly on Greek history. He also visited Sicily, Italy and Egypt and did not write literal histories on any of them. Sorry to intrude on the debate, I felt it worthy to make those two points.
Jshsitar is right in that the Greeks of that era would seem to have had contacts with the ancient Indians.


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« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2007, 03:11:01 pm »

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You might want to check out what I wrote a year ago regarding Fundamentalist Ideology and Atlantis Research:
FarShores http://farshores.proboards1.com
Incoming
Ancient Mysteries (Moderator: aurora)
Fudamentalist ideology and Atlantis research

You assertion that some Atlantis researchers
have memorized the references to Atlantis falls within this debate. I believe that there are probably still some Christians who can quote the whole Bible. Does that make it true? There are some Bibles that have Jesus's words written in red ink. Does that mean that he spoke them? Some people here like to use bold in when quoting Plato... its the same idea!
I think it is the role of scholarship to look into these issues.. not to believe blindly.

In a similar vein you are asking me to prove that Plato was writing historical fiction. I think that the figure of 9000 years earlier speaks for itself. It does not add up. Ask Historians and Geologists. You'd be talking about Stone Age civilisation and no sunken landmasses other than those under the rising sea level resulting from melting ice (400 feet I believe). Furthermore, any "history" of this era would be oral and most probably inaccurate.


[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-06-2005).]

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-06-2005).]

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-06-2005).]

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-06-2005).]


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« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2007, 03:11:23 pm »

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jshsitar

Except ALT LAND IS .....Excepting that the time-line 9000 more closely describes when the Aser re-connected with the outside world following Ice-time, they themselves telling/describing their former glory before it was called ALTLANDIS.

And, of course the history would be oral, told originally as SA GA, (SA to recieve-GA to give)which when still being told by the Aser (NARR-hence the word narrator) or their emissaries to the world(called HANUMAN)was still correct. Civilizations/cultures rise and recede, but poetry/tales, gods, place-names live on.

So much time had past up until the time of Plato, it is hardly any wonder the story is so garbled. By the time the Stele were carved in Egypt, there had to have been a LONG time SINCE IT HAD BEEN TOLD CORRECTLY.

The only teller of the SA GA left is one man in Finland, the last of the original King-line of the Aser, despite all attempts to wipe out all traces of the long-standing pagan royalty and the SA GA truths.

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 01-06-2005).]


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