Quest for King Arthur - Original

[Valerie]

Rachel Dearth

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   posted 12-11-2005 06:02 PM                       
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Ideas of the Grail

Galahad, Bors, and Percival achieve the GrailAs stated above, the Grail was considered a bowl or dish when first described by Chrétien de Troyes. Other authors had their own ideas; Robert de Boron portrayed it as the vessel of the Last Supper, and Peredur had no Grail per se, presenting the hero instead with a platter containing his kinsman's bloody, severed head. In Parzival, Wolfram von Eschenbach, citing the authority of a certain (probably fictional) Kyot the Provençal, claimed the Grail was a stone that fell from Heaven, and had been the sanctuary of the Neutral Angels who took neither side during Lucifer's rebellion. The authors of the Vulgate Cycle used the Grail as a symbol of divine grace. Galahad, bastard son of the world's greatest knight, Lancelot, and the Grail Bearer Elaine, is destined to achieve the Grail, his spiritual purity making him a better warrior than even his illustrious father. Galahad and the interpretation of the Grail involving him were picked up in the 15th century by Sir Thomas Malory (Le Morte d'Arthur), and remain popular today.

Various notions of the Holy Grail are currently very widespread in Western society (especially British, French and American), popularized through numerous medieval and modern works (see below) and linked with the predominantly Anglo-French (but also with some German influence) cycle of stories about King Arthur and his knights. Because of this wide distribution, Americans and West Europeans sometimes assume that the Grail idea is universally well known.

The stories of the Grail, however, are totally absent from the folklore of those countries that were and are Eastern Orthodox (whether Arabs, Slavs, Romanians, or Greeks). This is true of all Arthurian myths, which were not well known east of Germany until the present-day Hollywood retellings. Nor has the Grail been as popular a subject in some predominantly Catholic areas, such as Spain and Latin America, as it has been elsewhere. The notions of the Grail, its importance, and prominence, are a set of ideas that are essentially local and particular, being linked with Catholic or formerly Catholic locales, Celtic mythology and Anglo-French medieval storytelling. The contemporary wide distribution of these ideas is due to the huge influence of the pop culture of countries where the Grail Myth was prominent in the Middle Ages.

Some insist the Holy Grail, even if historical, should be considered separate from the Holy Chalice used by Jesus at the Last Supper. However, confusion between the two has been the historical practice.
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[Valerie]

Rachel Dearth

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   posted 12-11-2005 06:03 PM                       
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The later legend

Belief in the Grail, and interest in its potential whereabouts, has never ceased. Ownership has been attributed to various groups (including the Knights Templar). There are cups claimed to be the Grail in several churches like the Valencia cathedral. The emerald chalice at Genoa, which was obtained during the crusades at Aleppo at great cost, has been less championed as the Holy Grail since an accident on the road while it was being returned from Paris after the fall of Napoleon revealed that the emerald was green glass. In Wolfram von Eschenbach's telling, the Grail was kept safe at the castle of Munsalvaesche (mons salvationis), entrusted to Titurel, the first Grail King. Some, not least the monks of Montserrat, have identified the castle with the real sanctuary of Montserrat in Catalonia, Spain. Other stories claim that the Grail is buried beneath Rosslyn Chapel or is to be found deep in the spring at Glastonbury Tor. Still other stories claim that a secret line of hereditary protectors keep the Grail, or that it was hidden by the Templars in Oak Island, Nova Scotia's famous "Money Pit", while local folklore in Accokeek, Maryland says that it was brought to the town by a closeted priest aboard Captain John Smith's ship.
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[Valerie]

Rachel Dearth

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   posted 12-11-2005 06:05 PM                       
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Four medieval relics

During the Middle Ages, four major contenders for the position of Holy Grail stood out from the rest. Some of these, like the santo cáliz of Valencia, are connected with the Holy Chalice.

The earliest record of a chalice from the Last Supper is of a two-handled silver chalice which was kept in a reliquary in a chapel near Jerusalem between the basilica of Golgotha and the Martyrium. This potential Grail appears only in the account of Arculf, a 7th-century Anglo-Saxon pilgrim who saw it, and through an opening of the perforated lid of the reliquary where it reposed, touched it with his own hand which he had kissed. According to him, it had the measure of a Gaulish pint. All the people of the city flocked to it with great veneration. (Arculf also saw the Holy Lance in the porch of the basilica of Constantine.) This is the only mention of the chalice situated in the Holy Land.
There is a reference in the late thirteenth century to a copy of the Grail being at Constantinople. This occurs in the 13th century German romance, the Younger Titurel: "A second costly dish, very noble and very precious, was fashioned to duplicate this one. In holiness it has no flaw. Men of Constantinople assayed it in their land, (finding) it richer in adornment, they accounted it the true grâl." This Grail was said to have been looted from the church of the Bucoleon during the Fourth Crusade and sent from Constantinople to Troyes by Garnier de Trainel, then the bishop of Troyes, in 1204. It was recorded there in 1610, but it disappeared during the French Revolution.
Of two Grail vessels that survive today, one is at Genoa, in the cathedral. The hexagonal Genoese vessel is known as the sacro catino, the holy basin. Traditionally said to be carved from emerald, it is in fact a green Egyptian glass dish, about eighteen inches (37 cm) across. It was sent to Paris after Napoleon’s conquest of Italy, and was returned broken, which identified the emerald as glass. Its origin is uncertain; according to William of Tyre, writing in about 1170, it was found in the mosque at Caesarea in 1101: "a vase of brilliant green shaped like a bowl." The Genoese, believing that it was of emerald, accepted it in lieu of a large sum of money. An alternative story in a Spanish chronicle says that it was found when Alfonso VII of Castile captured Almeria from the Moors in 1147 with Genoese help, un uaso de piedra esmeralda que era tamanno como una escudiella, "a vase carved from emerald which was like a dish". The Genoese said that this was the only thing they wanted from the sack of Almeria. The identification of the sacro catino with the Grail is not made until later, however, by Jacobus de Voragine in his chronicle of Genoa, written at the close of the 13th century.
The other surviving Grail vessel is the santo cáliz, an agate cup in the cathedral of Valencia. It has been set in a medieval mounting and given a foot made of an inverted cup of chalcedony. There is an Arabic inscription. The earliest secure reference to the chalice is in 1399, when it was given by the monastery of San Juan de la Peña to king Martin I of Aragon in exchange for a gold cup. By the end of the century a provenance had been invented for the chalice at Valencia, by which St Peter had brought it to Rome.
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[Valerie]

Rachel Dearth

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The story of the Grail and of the quest to find it became increasingly popular in the nineteenth century, referred to in literature such as Alfred Tennyson's Arthurian cycle the Idylls of the King. The combination of hushed reverence, chromatic harmonies and sexualised imagery in Richard Wagner's late opera Parsifal gave new significance to the grail theme, for the first time associating the – now periodically blood-producing – grail directly with female sexual fertility. The high seriousness of the subject was also epitomized in Dante Gabriel Rossetti's painting (illustrated), in which a woman modelled by Jane Morris holds the Grail with one hand, while adopting a gesture of blessing with the other. Other artists, including George Frederic Watts and William Dyce also portrayed grail subjects.

The Grail later turned up in movies; it debuted in a silent Parsifal. In The Light of Faith (1922), Lon Chaney attempted to steal it, for the finest of reasons. The Silver Chalice, a novel about the Grail by Thomas B. Costain was made into a 1954 movie (in which Paul Newman débuted), that is considered notably bad by several critics, including Newman himself. Lancelot du Lac (1974) is Robert Bresson's gritty retelling. In vivid contrast, Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975) deflated it and all pseudo-Arthurian posturings. Excalibur attempted to restore a more traditional heroic representation of an Arthurian tale, in which the Grail is revealed as a mystical means to revitalise Arthur himself, and of the barren land to which his depressive sickness is connected. The Fisher King and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade place the quest in modern settings, the one serious yet faintly camp, the other robustly self-parodying. Science fiction has taken the Quest into interstellar space, figuratively in Samuel R. Delany's 1968 novel Nova, and literally in the 1994 episode "Grail" of the television series Babylon 5 and in the Japanese anime Sailor Moon.

Understandably the Grail has figured into much modern Arthurian literature, such as the works of poet Charles Williams (Taliessin Through Logres and Region of the Summer Stars) and feminist author Rosalind Miles (Child of the Holy Grail), but it has also been treated in works of non-fiction, generally of dubious scholarship, which tend to separate it from the Arthurian mythos. For the authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail, who assert that their research ultimately reveals that Jesus may not have died on the cross, but lived to marry Mary Magdalene and father children whose Merovingian bloodline continues today, the Grail is a mere sideshow. Dan Brown's bestselling novel The Da Vinci Code is likewise based on the idea that the real Grail is not a cup but the earthly remains of Mary Magdalene (again cast as Jesus' wife), plus a set of ancient documents telling the "true" story of Jesus, his teachings and descendants. In Brown's novel, it is hinted that the Grail was long buried beneath Rosslyn Chapel just like one tradition claims, but in recent decades its guardians had it relocated to a secret chamber embedded in the floor beneath the Inverted Pyramid in front of the Louvre Museum. Of course, the latter location has never been mentioned in real Grail lore. Yet such was the public interest in even a fictionalized Grail that the museum soon had to rope off the exact location mentioned by Brown, lest visitors inflict any damage in a more or less serious attempt to access the supposed hidden chamber. (See: La Pyramide Inversée.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_grail
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[Valerie]

 
Danielle Gorree

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   posted 09-13-2006 01:33 AM                       
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Experts Find Evidence of Knights of the Round Table
By Martin Croucher
Epoch Times London Staff Aug 30, 2006

Remains of a building have been found in the grounds of Windsor Castle that may have been built to house the original 300 Knights of the Garter. Evidence has emerged in the grounds of Windsor Castle of a building that may be linked to the legend of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.

The circular structure, built by Edward III in the 14th century, was thought to house a round table for the original 300 Knights of the Garter.

Archaeological remains of the 61-metre diameter building were discovered by Channel 4's Time Team over the weekend in the Castle's quadrangle. While the walls of the structure are no longer standing, there still exists a rubble fill-in where the stones once stood.

Tony Robinson, the presenter of the programme said that he expected the find to solve years of debate between historians. "The round table building is one of our most significant ever archaeological finds," Robinson said. "It is something that helped to establish Arthurian legends of the Knights of the Round Table.

"We set out to uncover the walls of the building, and they are just where we hoped. Experts have speculated about the structure for centuries, but they have never been able to find the actual building."

The round table building was but one of the many finds as archaeological teams gained unprecedented access to the three Royal residences of Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle and the Palace of Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh.

During the four-day dig, graphic artists drafted how buildings may have looked to previous generations while archaeologists eagerly carved up the Royal grounds with a variety of instruments ranging from excavators to toothbrushes.

The team utilised the latest technology in the dig, including ground penetrating radar and aerial photography to locate the round-table building.

At Buckingham Palace the team found items ranging from a pre-Roman flint to a section of a Victorian necklace.

They also found a stoneware beer mug dating from around 1700, which is thought to have been discarded by workmen at the time.

Other items included a tobacco pipe from the mid-17th century which had an inscription including the words "Brown" and "Westminster".

As well as similar items found at Holyroodhouse, experts also uncovered the foundations of what they believe to be a 12th century monastery.

The dig took place after months of negotiations and many previous refusals from senior aides at Buckingham Palace. Despite concern at having the perfectly manicured Royal lawns desecrated by the diggers, the Royal family agreed apparently after Tony Robinson had a chance to discuss the matter directly with the Queen at a recent garden party. With some knowledge of archaeology, Prince Charles was said to be extremely interested in the technical aspects of the dig.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-8-30/45485.html
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[Valerie]

Briwnys

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   posted 09-13-2006 01:39 PM                       
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quote:
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The circular structure, built by Edward III in the 14th century, was thought to house a round table for the original 300 Knights of the Garter.
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If there was an historical Arthur, he would have lived in the 5th and 6th century, Danielle, so this is in no way a link to king Arthur, as the title of the article so cleverly implies.

Briwnys

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Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005   

[Valerie]

Briwnys

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   posted 09-13-2006 02:25 PM                       
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The first mention of the name "Art" which can be associated with elements of the Arthurian myth occured in Ireland around 177 CE, in the reign of Conn Cead Cathach, Conn of the Hundred Battles.


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Conn, together with his son Art Ua Cuinn, went up from Teamhair (Hill of Tara) in the early morning to the Rath (stronghold) of the Kings at the rising of the sun, and his three Druids with him, Maol and Bloc and Bhuice; and his three poets, Ethain and Corb and Cesarn. And on this day he chanced to stand upon a stone that was in the rath, and the stone screamed under his feet, that it was heard all over Teamhair and as far as Bregia.

Then Conn asked his chief Druid how the stone came there, and what it screamed for. And the Druid said, "The Lia Fail is the name of the stone; it is out of Falias it was brought, and it is in Teamhair it was setup, and in Teamhair it will stay forever. And as long as there is a king in Teamhair it is here will be the gathering place for games, and if there is no king to come to the last day of the gathering, there will be hardness in that year. And when the stone screamed under your feet," he said, "the number of the screams it gave was a foretelling of the number of kings of your race that would come after you. But it is not I myself will name them for you," he said.

And while they were in the same place, there came a great mist about them and a darkness, so that they could not know what way they were going, and they heard the noise of a rider coming towards them. "It would be a great grief to us," said Conn, "to be brought away into a strange country." Then the rider threw three spears at them, and every one came faster than the other. "It is the wounding of a king indeed," said the Druids, "any one to cast at Conn of Teamhair."

The rider stopped casting his spears on that, and he came to them and bade Conn welcome, and asked him to come to his house. They went on then till they came to a beautiful plain, and there they saw a king’s rath, and a golden tree at its door, and inside the rath a grand house with a roof of white bronze. So they went into the house, and the rider that had come to meet them was there before them, in his royal seat, and there had never been seen a man like him in Teamhair for comeliness or for beauty, or the wonder of his face.And there was a young woman in the house, having a band of gold on her head, and a silver vessel with hoops of gold beside her, and it full of red ale, and a golden bowl on its edge, and a golden cup at its mouth. She said then to the master of the house: "Who am I to serve drink to?" "Serve it to Conn of the Hundred Battles," he said, "for he will gain a hundred battles before he dies." And after that he bade her to pour out the ale for Art, the son of Conn; and after that he went through the names of all the kings of Ireland that would come after Conn, and he told what would be the length of their lifetime. And the young woman left the vessel with Conn, and the cup and the bowl, and she gave him along with that the rib of an ox and of a hog; twenty-four feet was the length of the ox-rib.And the master of the house told them the young woman was the Kingship of Ireland forever. "And as for myself," he said, "I am Lugh of the Long Hand, son of Ethlinn."
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In 184 CE, Lucius Artorius Castus, commander of a detachment of Sarmatian conscripts stationed in Britain, led his troops to Gaul to quell a rebellion. This is the first appearance of the name, Artorius, in history and some believe that this Roman military man was the original, or basis, of the Arthurian legend. The theory says that Castus' exploits in Gaul, at the head of a contingent of mounted troops, became the basis for later, similar traditions about "King Arthur," and, further, that the name "Artorius" became a title, or honorific, which was ascribed to a famous warrior in the fifth century. This is quite possibly true, since the appellation "Tower in Battle", in Gaelic, is Àr-Tùr.

In 200 CE, The Cruithne, or Picts, began to migrate back to Scotland. Possible reasons could be famine and the continuing difference in attitude between the Milesian Druids and the Druids of the older tribes.

In 265 CE, Fionn MacCumail became the leader of the Fianna, implementing a code of honor among them, challenging them to become champions of the people; to make of themselves models of chivalry and justice that others might aspire to. This is the beginning of the code of Chivalry:

Neart inár lámha, fírinne ar ár dteanga, glaine inár gcroí
"Strength in our arms, truth on our tongue, clarity in our heart"
 

[Valerie]

In 300 CE, several migrations began:

The Dal Riata ally themselves with the Dal nAraide, a sept of the Cruithne, or Picts, some of which have migrated to Scotland
The Ui Liathain, a sept of the Erainn or Firbolgs, begin their migration to Cornwall and Devon
The Brigantes, a sept of the Laigin or Tuatha de Danann, migrate to Scotland
The Deisi, another sept of the Laigin or Tuatha de Danann, migrate to Wales

In 336 CE, Niall of the Nine Hostages was born. His mother, Carthann, was the daughter of either a British or Pictish king, possibly from the area around Loch Ness, as one of Niall's grandsons is described as a Pict and was killed near there.

In 367 CE, The Barbarian Conspiracy, which consisted of Teutons from across the North Sea, and the Picts and Scotti emigrants from the north and west attacked the British Kingdoms. Magnus Maximus (Macsen Wledig) began fortifying Britain, arranging large defensive areas that could be governed by client tribes or native Roman officers, called Wledig, or Guardians. All of these are set up in the militarized zones in the west and north, areas that were never fully Romanized but had been under military control through several chains of forts.

In 383 CE, Magnus Maximus (Macsen Wledig), a Spaniard, was proclaimed Emperor in Britain by the island's Roman garrison. With an army of British volunteers, he quickly conquered Gaul, Spain and Italy. Macsen Wledig married the granddaughter of Eudaf Hen, King of Ewyas (Wales) and, through this alliance, became High King of Britain - again, through the use of the concept of matrilinear succession.

In 400 CE, The Ui Neill and Dal Riata (descendants of Conn Cead Cathach through Niall of the Nine Hostages) begin migrating to Scotland. Around this time, Pelagius formulated his doctrine, which was based on the teachings of the Culdees and Druids. It said that man was basically good and did, indeed, have control of his own eternal destiny. It denied the doctrine of original sin, and by extension, the necessity for and the efficacy of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

This was in direct opposition to the doctrine of Augustine, which taught that man was a sinner, by nature, and that, without the grace of God, his sin could only earn him eternal damnation. Man's salvation came solely through the grace of God, as presented in the person and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and that this grace came only by God's pleasure, to whomsoever he chose to extend it, without requiring any effort on man's part to complete the transaction.

These opposing and mutually exclusive views divided Britain into factions and produced great tensions in society.

In 403 CE, Victricius, Bishop of Rouen, visited Britain for the purpose of bringing peace to the island's clergy, who were in the midst of a dispute, possibly over the Pelagian heresy.

In 408 CE, The Roman legions were withdrawn and Britain endured devastating attacks by the Picts, Scots and Saxons.

In 410 CE, the governor of Gwynedd, Owain Finddu of Glywysing, was assassinated and Irish incursions begin into Gwynedd, Powys, Garth Madrun, Dyfed and the Gower Peninsula. About 15 years later, Cunedda would be posted to this area to hold it for the British.

Sometime during this period, Erc, the daughter of Eochaid Muin-remor, Pictish High King of Alba, was born. She was the mother of Fergus Mor Mac Erc. Erc had been promised to Sarran, king of Strathclyde, but was seduced by Prince Muiredach of Ireland and was taken back to Ireland by him. By Pictish Matrilinear succession, her sons would be High Kings.

In 423 CE, St. Patrick was born in Banna Venta Burniae, thought to be near Birdoswald. As Patrick was a Culdee later in life, it is probable that this was the faith of his family.

In 425 CE, The Guardian, Cunedda Wledig and his retinue are moved south from Manau Gododdin (Scotland) to Gwynedd (Wales) in order to expel the invading Irish. Cunedda was probably from the Laigin or Tuatha de Danann as were the Deisi, who had settled in Wales. It is important to note that Cunedda claimed descent from the family of Christ by the marriage of Bran the Blessed to Anna of Arimathea, Joseph's daughter.

About the same time, Amlawdd, a Prince of Dumnonia (the Erainn or Firbolgs who settled in Devon and Cornwall), was born. A member of a younger branch of the Royal House of Dumnonia, he was probably a nobleman of Ergyng, though he has also been attached to the North of Britain (Scotland) and Brittany.

According to Welsh sources, Amlawdd was the father of Igaine (Eigyr), who was the mother of Àrtùr; Amlawdd is also credited with being the father of Goleuddydd and Rieingulid who were, respectively, the mothers of Àrtùr's cousins, Culhwch and Illtyd.

In 426 CE, Gwen, the daughter of Cunedda Wledig, King of Manau Gododdin (Scotland) and Gwynedd (Wales) was born. Gwen was the mother of Igaine, the mother of Àrtùr.

In 429 CE, at the request of Palladius, a British deacon, Pope Celestine I dispatches Bishops Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes to Britain to combat the Pelagian heresy.

In 434 CE, St. Patrick, aged 11, is taken to Ireland as a slave.

In 437 CE, Ambrosius Aurelianus appears as leader of the Pro-Roman faction in Britain (traditionally returning from exile in Brittany, Ambrosius is the heir of Coel Hen, last Dux Brittanniarum, whose kingdom was within Strathclyde or Ayrshire). Vortigern's apparent relative, Vitalinus (Guitolinus), fights against Ambrosius at the Battle of Wallop. Ambrosius wins and is "given all the kingdoms of the western side of Britain", that is, from the area around Strathclyde and Ayrshire to Wales and Cornwall.

In 440 CE, St. Patrick, aged 17, escapes from his captors and returns to Britain.

440 CE is also the beginning of a ten year period of civil war and famine in Britain, caused by the ruling council's weakness and inability to deal with Pictish invasions; the situation is aggravated by tensions between Pelagian and Roman factions. Vacated towns and cities lie in ruin. Migration of pro-Roman citizens toward west begins, and the country begins to be divided, geographically, along factional lines.

In 445 CE, Vortigern comes to power in Britain. Vortigern is thought to be a title meaning "Overlord". He has been identified as Prince Muiredach, the father of Fergus Mor Mac Erc. Patrick was about 23 years old at this time.

In 446 CE, Vortigern authorizes the use of Saxon mercenaries, known as foederati, for the defense of the northern parts of Britain against barbarian attack.

In 450 CE, Vortigern welcomes Hengest, who arrives with "3 keels" of warriors. This event is known in Latin as the "adventus Saxonum," the coming of the Saxons.

In 452 CE, Hengest invites his son, Octha, from Germany with "16 keels" of warriors, who occupy the northern lands, to defend against the Picts. Picts, as such, are never heard from again.

By the next year, 453 CE, Saxon raids on British towns and cities become more frequent.

In 455 CE, Prince Vortimer (Fergus) apparently rebelled against the pro-Saxon policies of his father, Vortigern, and fought Hengest at the Battle of Crayford. Hengest was victorious and the British army fled back to London.

In 456 CE, The indecisive Battle of Aylesford between Hengest's Saxons and the British under Prince Vortimer (Fergus) occurs.

St. Patrick, age 33, leaves Britain once more to evangelize Ireland.

In 463 CE, Laeghaire, king of Ireland, dies. Patrick is 40, Comgall, between 3 and 7. Oilioll becomes High King.

In 483 CE, Oilioll, the High King of Ireland, dies and Lughaidh becomes High King. Patrick, now 60 years old, opposes Lughaidh and supports Fergus Mor Mac Erc. Patrick prophesizes that Fergus' line will rule a 'greater kingdom' than that of his brother, Lughaidh.

485 CE -96 CE - Period of Àrtùr's "twelve battles" during which he gains a reputation for invincibility. Comgall was either 25 or 29 at the beginning of this period, 36 or 40 at its end. Just as we call someone "A tower of Strength", Comgall, the Battle Leader, was known as "A Tower in Battle", an Àr-Tùr. He did not become High King until his father's death in 496 CE.

Midway in this period, around 490 CE, Fergus Mor Mac Erc moved the throne of Dalriada from Ireland to Scotland, becoming the first Scots King to reign over Dalriada in Scotland.

According to legend, Fergus brought the Stone of Destiny to Dalriada for his coronation and refused to return it to Ireland.

485 CE - 490 CE First 4 battles: Linnuis, Glen River, Andred, and Glen River

491 CE - Battle of Celidon Woods in the Upper Tweed Valley

In 491 CE, Fergus dies in battle.

492 CE - Battle of Gunnion fort: Àrtùr lures the Saxons of Bernicia from the fort and rides them down in the open

In 493 CE, St. Patrick dies, age 70. Comgall is present at his death. He is either 33 or 37. Àrtùr fought no battles in 493 CE while Comgall was in Ireland.

494 CE - Battles of Chester and The Hill of Agned or Breguoin

495 CE - Battles of Tribruit River and Cerdices Ora

496 CE - Battle of Mt Badon

In 496 CE, Domangart died in battle. Comgall becomes High King. He ruled for 46 years. Àrtùr is said to have ruled for 45 years after the Battle of Mt. Badon.

In 537 CE, Battle of Camlann

In 542 CE, Comgall died in exile, quite possibly in Arran, the Avalon of the Gael.


Briwnys

[ 09-13-2006, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Briwnys ]

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[Valerie]

Danielle Gorree

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   posted 09-13-2006 11:14 PM                       
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Originally posted by Briwnys:

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The circular structure, built by Edward III in the 14th century, was thought to house a round table for the original 300 Knights of the Garter.
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If there was an historical Arthur, he would have lived in the 5th and 6th century, Danielle, so this is in no way a link to king Arthur, as the title of the article so cleverly implies.

Briwnys
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Briwnys, I believe that the round table was a detail added later. Perhaps this particular round table inspired that addition to the stories of Arthur, or the stories themselves the Knights of the Garter to have it built.
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[Valerie]

Danielle Gorree

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   posted 09-13-2006 11:17 PM                       
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Nice work, by the way. Personally, I believe that Arthur was either a compilation of men, or wasn't actually even named Arthur at all. Here is the one I believe to be the most likely candidate:

Riothamus the King

Geoffrey Ashe argues that King Arthur was an historical King in Brittany known to history as Riothamus, a title meaning "Greatest-King". His army is recorded as having crossed the channel to fight the Visigoths in the Loire Valley in 468. Betrayed by the Prefect of Gaul, he later disappeared from history. Ashe does not discuss Riothamus' ancestry. He, in fact, appears quite prominently in the pedigree of the Kings of DomnonŽe, dispite attempts to equate him with a Prince of Cornouaille named Iaun Reith. Riothamus was probably exiled to Britain during one of the many civil wars that plagued Brittany. He later returned in triumph to reclaim his inheritance, but was later killed in an attempt to expel Germanic invaders. The main trouble with this Arthurian identification is that it pushes King Arthur back fifty years from his traditional period at the beginning of the sixth century (See Ashe 1985).
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[Valerie]

Briwnys

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   posted 09-14-2006 12:23 AM                       
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Personally, I believe that Arthur was either a compilation of men, or wasn't actually even named Arthur at all.
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I agree.

"Just as we call someone "A tower of Strength", Comgall, the Battle Leader, was known as "A Tower in Battle", an Àr-Tùr. He did not become High King until his father's death in 496 CE."

You might also notice that I included Patrick in the timeline I wrote. If you consider the legends surrounding him, you can see where he fits nicely as Merlin to Comgall's Arthur. He is, in fact, credited with acts of magic against the druids of the Irish High King, including an incidence of shape-shifting where he turned himself and some of his followers into deer to escape the King's men. If Comgall, or Arthur, was born in 456 CE, it would explain why Patrick might have left Britain to return to Ireland, to carry Domengart's heir to the safety of Ireland, even at the height of the ongoing battle between the Augustinian and Pelagian factions.

I have often wondered why, if one were looking for Arthur, no one considered that there must be a Merlin of sufficient renown as to be readily connected to one of the candidates. Obviously, Patrick's support of the Dalriadan Dynasty should be considered. The timeline also fits for what is believed to be the historical figure called Àr-Tùr.

Briwnys

[ 09-14-2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Briwnys ]

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To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible

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Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005   

[Valerie]

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