Library of Alexandria (Original)

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   posted 02-19-2006 01:29 AM                       
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TARTESSOS AS ATLANTIS ?

And Dicaearchus, too, and Eratosthenes and Polybius and most of the Greeks represent the Pillars as in the neighbourhood of the strait.
But the Iberians and Libyans say that that Pillars are in Gades, for the regions in the neighbourhood of the strait in no respect, they say,
resemble pillars. Others say that it is the bronze pillars of eight cubits in the temple of Heracles in Gades, whereon is inscribed the expense
incurred in the construction of the temple, that are called the Pillars; and those people who have ended their voyage with visiting these
pillars and sacrificing to Heracles have had it noisily spread abroad that this is the end of both land and sea. Poseidonius, too, believes this
to be the most plausible account of the matter. (Strabo).

INFO: The ancient Greeks erected pillars here and there to have memorial monuments of foundation (Strabo comments those of Cyrenaica
also per example).

IDEA: If the Pillars of Hercules were in fact in Cadiz, the relate of Plato would mean then the country that was rear such pillars, then
representing modern Andalusia.

Critias: "To his twin brother, who was born after him [the king Atlas], and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars
of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades [Cadiz] in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the
Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus."

IDEA: This account points also that Atlantis was not too far from Cadiz (as the Antartida or India).

At any rate, it was because the people had learned the character of these regions and that the estuaries could subserve the same purpose
as the rivers, that they built cities and other settlements on their banks, just as on the rivers. Among these cities are Asta, Nabrissa, Onoba,
Ossonoba, Maenoba, and several others. Again, canals that have been dug in a number of places are an additional aid, since many are the
points thereon from which and to which the people carry on their traffic, not only with one another but also with the outside world. (Strabo).

Since the river [Guadalquivir] had two mouths, a city was planted on the intervening territory in former times, it is said,- a city which was
called "Tartessus," after the name of the river; and the country, which is now occupied by Turdulians, was called "Tartessis." Further,
Eratosthenes says that the country adjoining Calpe is called "Tartessis," and that Erytheia [island] is called "Blest Isle." (Strabo).

“... [la ciudad de] Tartessos está en una isla del golfo de su nombre, en el cual desemboca el río Tartessos, que baña sus murallas después
de pasar por el lago Lagustino." (Avieno).

INFO: The Guadalquivir's stuary in past centuries had an inner lake and further islands, now almost dissapeared.

INFO: Tartessian remains have been found in all southern Spain, indicating it a notable influence.






The ancient cities that included the suffix -ipo are believed to be
cities of Tartessian origin.


Up to the present moment, in fact, neither gold, nor silver, nor yet copper, nor iron, has been found anywhere in the world, in a natural state,
either in such quantity or of such good quality. (Strabo).

IDEA: The disponibility of such great mineral richneeses would have allowed the existence of an important state in Western Europe.

INFO: To comment that the ruins of Tartessos city have not been found yet... (and Plato explained that the capital city sinked after
a cataclism). Also to be considered the fact that Atlantis was in the Atlantic.

While there are not volanoes in South Spain, the Canary Islands are of volcanic origin, and it is known that in past times explosions
of volcanoes provoked that pasts of the islands sinked, creating that giant tsunamis... that would have ruined whichever city placed
in the coasts of Andalusia.
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:32 AM                       
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THE CANARY ISLANDS AND MOROCCO AS THE SOURCE OF THE MYTH.

INFO: The theory exposed here has been developed taking into account the clues that Plato gave about Atlantis' situation, and taking
also into account geographic and historic facts known.

"There was an island opposite the strait which you call the Pillars of Hercules [Straits of Gibraltar], an island larger than Libya [North Africa]
and Asia [Turkey] combined; from it travellers could in those days reach the other islands, and from them the whole opposite continent
[America ?] which surrounds what can truly be called the ocean. For the sea within the strait we were talking about [Mediterranean Sea]
is like a lake with a narrow entrance; the outer ocean is the real ocean and the land which entirely surrounds it is properly termed continent
[America and Europe combined ?]. On this island of Atlantis had arisen a powerful and remarkable dynasty of kings, who ruled the whole
island, and many other islands as well and parts of the continent; in addition it controlled, within the strait, Libya up to the borders of Egypt
and Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [Tuscany and Corsica]. This dynasty, gathering its whole power together, attempted to enslave, at a single
stroke, your country [Greece] and ours [Egypt] and all the territory within the strait. It was then, Solon, that the power and courage and
strength of your city [Athens] became clear for all men to see. Her bravery and military skill were outstanding; she led an alliance of Greeks,
and then when they deserted her and she was forced to fight alone, after running into direst peril, she overcame the invaders and celebrated
a victory; she rescued those not yet enslaved from the slavery threatening them, and she generously freed all others living within the Pillars
of Hercules [so S. Spain and Morocco might have been keept under Atlantean control]. At a later time there were earthquakes and floods
of extraordinary violence, and in a single dreadful day and night all your fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island of
Atlantis was similarly swallowed up by the sea and vanished [the text points as if the Greek soldiers and Atlantis were in different places,
but the catastrophe afftected both]; this is why the sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation, which is hindered by mud just
below the surface, the remains of the sunken island" [Egyptian priest telling the history of Atlantis to Solon].

Critias: "To his twin brother, who was born after him [the king Atlas], and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars
of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades [Cadiz] in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the
Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus."

IDEA: If Gades would be Agadir (in ancient times also was known by such name), then with no doubt Critias was talking about the Canary
Islands, in front of Agadir (!), and wich are of volcanic origin. Critias mentioned that Atlantis exercised power over other nearer islands.
The name "Atlantic Ocean" and "Atlas Mountains" are to be found only in Morocco, and if the Canary Islands would rise more, such
islands almost would belong to the Atlas ranges...

INFO: In whichever case, the Canary Islands are just in front of Cadiz: in a SW direction (1200 km).

IDEA: But no native cities were found by the Spaniards in the XIV Century, when conquered the islands, and without cities there
are not civilization... but as the same account of Plato indicates that at least one city sunked into the ocean... it could be suspected
that the cities are not searched... in the right place.
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:34 AM                       
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The Hesperides (or Atlantides) were the seven daughters and lovers of Atlas, the mythic Titan son of Poseidon (Oceanus) that founded
the city of Atlantis.

Greek myths tell the legend of the Atlantides, the seven beautiful daughters of the Titan Atlas, the founding father of Atlantis.
The Atlantides are also called Pleiades or Hesperides, and personify the seven Islands of the Blest, which the Greeks obscurely placed
in the Outer Ocean (Atlantic). These Islands of the Blest became vaguely confused with the Canary Islands.

"[Atlantis] was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true
ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the
surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent." [Timaeus]

"Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over
parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt,
and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia." [Timaeus]

IDEA: The text points implicitly that the Atlanteans had also Morocco... and the unique islands near Morocco... are that of the Canaries.

"All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of diverse islands in the open sea" [Critias]

"The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and
surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea; it was smooth and even, and
of an oblong shape, extending in one direction three thousand stadia [555 km], but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia
[370 km]. This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north." [Critias]

IDEA: After many oral transmissions was the plain not in the island but in the continent, so that it would be in fact the Moroccan Sahel ?
The mountains that descend towards the sea were not the Atlas ranges ?
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:35 AM                       
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When the Krakatoa erupted in 1883, the entire northern portion of the island was blown away, reducing 10 square miles of land with an
average elevation of about 700 feet to an extensive depression in the sea with a depth of more than 900 feet below sea level. The sound of
that particular explosion was heard 3,000 miles away, and the sea was covered with large amounts of pumice for miles around. It has been
estimated that in this eruption at least 1 cubic mile of material was blown to a height of about 17 miles and that the dust was carried several
times around the earth by air currents, affecting the sun's incoming radiation and the weather for many years thereafter. Quantities of dust
from Krakatoa precipitated on the decks of vessels as far as 1,600 miles away. The explosion of this volcano, furthermore, generated tsunamis
of over 100 feet in height, which destroyed 295 towns and villages in Western Java and Southern Sumatra and drowned 36,380 people.






The geology of Reunion Island (Indic Ocean) evidences
how a trait of volcanic land slid towards the ocean (by the
loss of ground stability after the proper growth of the volcano,
or by the collapse of the self internal structure of the volcano).


An earthquake provoked the partial sink of the ancient Alexandria in the Nile delta; almost no written testimonies have been keept for
such event that took place some 800 years ago. The cause of such sinking was the unstable (sandy) ground where the city was placed,
which lost its stability after an earthquake.

Recent research indicates that stratovolcanoes can move or slide along their bases. Occasional locking and subsequent sudden slippage
along these internal zones of weakness, or near the sea floor base, can cause sudden movements and large earthquakes. Both La Palma
and Hawaii appear to have such zones of weakness and, as shown, massive flank failures occurred in the distant past.

At least ten major flank collapses have occurred in the Canary Island chain in the past million years.

There was at least one known catastrophic collapse on La Palma about 560 ka ago. This was the Cumbre Nueva giant landslide, which
removed an estimated 200 km3 of the central-western of the island, forming a large embayment. (Carracedo, et al 1999).

The volcano of Cumbre Vieja on the island of La Palma was identified as unstable and as a likely site for a major collapse that would
presumably generate a mega tsunami (Ward & Day, 2001). A numerical tsunami modeling study was undertaken by Ward &. Day (2001),
postulating that a massive landslide, with a volume of up 500 cubic km, could be triggered by the next major eruption of Cumbre Vieja.
The tsunami could be high as 35 meters when arriving to the coasts of Spain and Ireland.

At least one catastrophic collapse, the Cumbre Nueva giant landslide, occurred about 560 ka ago. The collapse removed some 200 km3 of the central-western part of La Palma, forming a large embayment. (Carracedo, et al., 1999).

“A lump of rock twice the volume of the Isle of Man would slide down the unstable western flank of the mountain at more than 200mph and
travel up to 40 miles along the sea floor. This would set off the worst tsunami, or giant wave, ever recorded.” (The Guardian, August 29, 2001)

INFO: The danger is yet present.
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:37 AM                       
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"At a later time [after the war] there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in a single dreadful day and night all your
fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis was similarly swallowed up by the sea and vanished; this is why the
sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation, which is hindered by mud just below the surface, the remains of the sunken island"
[Egyptian priest telling the history of Atlantis to Solon as accounted by Timaeus].

After sinking, the area of Atlantis became difficult to navigate (by the mud left), and remaining only scattered islands in the area.

IDEA: A flank slide provoked by volcanic activity could cause such mud (punice).

IDEA: If a volcanic event provoked a flank slide in the Canary Islands, such event could have destoyed first whichever city of the area,
and the following giant tsunamis would have destroyed by their side wichever coastal city of the region, including Moroccan cities,
exterminating so the heading places of a civilization.

La Palma Island is constituted by three volcanoes, one yet active, so that
the island could grow even more... or could be reduced in the case
that a volcanic cone would collapse.

[ 02-19-2006, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Isis* ]
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:38 AM                       
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PYRAMIDAL STRUCTURES

The Guanches constructed cerimonial pyramidal structures.
The rites included sacrifices practiced in determinated dates.

"All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of
a stadium in width, they [Atlanteans] surrounded by a stone wall on every side,
placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in." [Critias]

Detail of a Canarian pyramid.

TECHNOLOGIES AND ECOLOGIES

INFO: Critias, in his description of Atlantis, accounts that the Atlanteans had cities (10 as minimum); that tin and copper were used;
that they had a writting system; that they had written laws; that the island was ruled by 10 akin dinasties militarly allied; that
the Atlanteans practiced tauromachies to sacrifice to Poseidon; that elephants inhabited the area; that Atlantis was very rich in metals and
in crops; that the Atlanteans used chariots of war pulled by horses; and that they were mighty sailors and had good ships.

Elephants inhabited in ancient times
South Morocco as these petroglyphs
found in Smara Cave attest.


INFO: The Carthaginians used elephants to attack the Roman exercits, so that 2300 years ago there were elephants available in North Africa.

IDEA: copper and tin were used since -2400 in South Spain to make the alloy of bronze; chariots of war are attested by first time in -2700
(by -2000 in Spain, by -1200 in Morocco); cities and civilization were carried first to South Spain and to Morocco by the Phoenicians around
-1100 / -850; also the Phoencians spread there the use of writting. To date to -9600 the Atlantic Empire is impossible.

INFO: The Phoenicians founded the first market places in Atlantic Morocco in the XII Century BC. Some of such colonies placed in
the Atlantic were: Gadir/Cadiz, Tingis/Tanger, Zilis/Asilah, Lixus/Larache, Sala/Rabat, Safi, Gadir/Agadir and Mogador/Essaouira.

Evidence has recently come to light of Phoenician and Carthaginian contact with the Canary Isles as early as the sixth-century BC
(after the work of Pablo Atoche Peña).

It seems that the Canary Islands were discovered first by Phoenician sailors, so that the first inhabitants of the archipielago arrived already
with Phoenician influences (they can be included in the African ethnic group known as Lybio-Phoenicians, which were Phoenicized
Berbers). Pablo Atoche ("CANARIAS EN LA ETAPA ANTERIOR A LA CONQUISTA BAJOMEDIEVAL") point to around -900 as
the date to be colonized, first with some small settlements, after a more intensive colonization after the richness and viriginity present
in such islands.

Each year archaeologists are discovering new evidences of a Phoenician (or Lybio-Phoenician) past for the Canary Islands: fish factories,
cemeteries, etc. Moreover the Lybio-Phoenician inscriptions found in the islands point to the Phoenician religion: Amon, Yahveh, etc.

It is evident that many inhabitants made representations of the Punic goddess Tanit, their types of burial were Semitic (including cremation),
and used oriental amulets (p.e. the Egyptian beetle).

IDEA: The fact that the Canary Islands were previsouly uninhabited, keeping then all its explendorous fauna, forests, banks of fish,
and fertile volcanic lands in its original state, that would have allowed in few generations an intense colonization (contrarily to other
Phoenician foundations, the cities in mainland Africa depended on the collaboration of the natives to take enough profit from trade as
to mantain the colonies); moreover, such available and free richness and such colonization quickly would allowed the creation of cities in
the archipielago, and that such cities would have been more important and influential in being more rich than others. Precisely a "proof"
about the existence of such theoric Lybio-Phoenician cities in the islands... is that none has been found where THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
THERE, the problem would be that such cities are not attested yet by an unknown cause.

INFO: The Carthaginians founded cities in the Moroccan Atlantic coasts by the V Century BC.

"The Carthaginians ordered that Hanno would sail beyond the Columns of Hercules and that he migh found new cities of Lybio-Phoenicians; and he began his travel along sixty captains which led an expedition that included men and women in a number of 30000". Hanno's Periplus.

IDEA: Why the Carthaginians might have founded again colonies in Morocco by the VI Century if the Phoenicians did it previously ??

[ 02-19-2006, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Isis* ]
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:43 AM                       
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THE MYTHIC WEALTH OF THE ARCHIPELAGO

The Roman historian Pliny the Elder called the island Canaria, a reference to the large wild dogs (from the Latin canis, for dog) which he
reported living on the island in his 37-volume Natural History: "[The island is] named Canaria [Gran Canaria], from its multitude of dogs of
a huge size. [Explorers] said that in this island there are traces of buildings [see below]; that while they all have an abundant supply of fruit
and of birds of every kind, Canaria also abounds in palm-groves bearing dates and in conifers; that in addition to this there is a large supply
of honey, and also papyrus grows in the rivers, and sheat-fish; and that these islands are plagued with the rotting carcasses of monstrous
creatures that are constantly being cast ashore by the sea [dead whales]."

In times of the phoenician, the Canary Islands were called "Alizuth" which means joy and happiness, later, during the greek dominion,
the name was changed into "Elysius Parayso" - land of illusions and joy. Soon the islands were known as "Campos Elyseos" (Garden
of Eden), a place they said, where people lived a sweet and peaceful live, never knowing rain or snow.

INFO: The Canary Islands are nowadays a big producer of bananas due to its tropical climatology and are visited by some ten milion
of tourists each year by its paradisiac beaches and placid climatology.


The island provided so good crops of barley that the islanders created granaries to store it.

SHIPS AND CONTACTS


WRITTINGS

It seems that the Guanches shared the same script with the
Berber akin tribes.

CULTURAL TRAITS

The Guanches, the native original inhabitants of the Canary Islands,
mummified the deceased kings and buried them inside natural caves.

Above all in La Palma Island it has been found rocks with inscribed spirals.
Such motives also are found in Galicia (NW Spain) and in Venezuela.
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:45 AM                       
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The origin of the Guanches remains a mysterious haze. Researchers linked them with the Berbers from North Africa, but in Charles Berlitz’s
‘The Lost Ship of Noah’ we read that they told the Spanish that they had always thought they were alone on the earth and that everyone
else drowned in the Great Flood. It is not such a big step to link them with Atlantis, because they believed they once lived in a large land
with cities, fertile plains and rivers. At a certain moment in time this prosperous empire was flooded and only a few people managed to
escape death by climbing on the volcanic top Teide. The Canary Islands would be the highest peaks of this sunken civilization.

“For when there were any survivors, as I have already said, they were men who dwelt in the mountains; and they were ignorant of the art
of writing, and had heard only the names of the chiefs of the land, but very little about their actions” [Critias]

The Canary Islands had three main cultural facies: the first is a stone age culture, then it was substituted by an iron age culture (iron and
bronze were used to make armours), and this culture was followed after by an stone age culture: there was a cultural regression.

Around 100 BC, a Roman author and geographer that listened to the name Marcellus, wrote that the legend of Atlantis was still being
preserved on a group of islands in the Atlantic Ocean. In 450 AD Proculus Diadochus, in an attempt to verify what Marcellus had written
so many centuries ago, went on a journey to the Islands of the Blessed or Fortunate Islands, located at only a day sailing off the coast
of Mauretania.

The contact between the Canary Islands and the rest of the world was broken coinciding with the beginning of the Dark Ages that followed
the collapse of the Roman Empire by the V Century; such isolation was keept until the arrival of the first European explorers in the XIV
Century (Portuguese, Castilians, Normands, etc.). Obviously, such period was decisive to the different evolution of the native inhabitants
in respect to their African neighbours, and could explain the cultural involution suffered.

The religion of the Guanches tried to prevent tectonic disasters. In their culture there was a group of holy virgins, called the Harimagada.
Every year this group jumped in the sea and drowned. With this voluntary offer they tried to prevent that their island would sink in the sea.

IDEA: From where came such idea, that an Island could sink ? Evidently, from a past experience.

Many writers who investigated the problem of the Guanches were puzzled by the fact that the natives of the Canaries detested the sea, and never sailed it at all. So, it is pertinent to ask, after them, how did the Guanches get to the isolated Canaries in the first place?

IDEA: Could have been the Atlanteans descendents of Lybio-Phoenicians that dwelt in Moroccan and Canarian cities, those in the Canaries
disppeared after a cataclism ? Could have dominated such Atlanteans other Phoencian cities of the Maghreb and south Spain, so leaving not
a differentiated archeaologic registry ? Could have taken the refered battle between Atlanteans and Greeks before that the last got the mastery
of writting ? Critias would have mentioned facts occurred around -750 ? Could be the Guanches descendents of Lybio-Phoenician colons
that survived a cathaclism that left them backwarded (without the ability to construct ships, write, etc.) ?

The Atlantes conquered the Western Mediterranean till Genoa in the northern side, and till Tripoly in the southern side [that would point
also to a conquest of the intermediate islands]; but before that the frontier was in the Gibraltar Strait. The Athenians won the battle against
the expanding Atlantes, which were menacing the interests of Athens.
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   posted 02-19-2006 01:46 AM                       
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CONCLUSIONS

The XXII Dinastic Period (-950 till -712) represented a Dark Age for Egypt: in fact it was ruled by Lybians. This period started an epoch
of two millenia in which Egypt was dominated by foreign powers: Assyrians, Babilonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines,
and Arabs.

After taking into account all the historic known facts, and the clues that gives us the legend of Atlantis... the history would have been so:
Firstly, the superior navigational skills of the Phoenicians would have allowed them to discover the Canarian Archipelago by -1100; after
cheeking the possibilities of the islands, some pristine factories to treat the salt, the banks of fishes, the wood, etc. would have been
stablished; after some time a call to colonize the islands, or a natural inmigration would have carried there Lybio-Phoenician colons from
nearer Morocco around -900, such colonizers would have adapted the islands to grow the first cultivations. After some generations,
the wealth of the islands would have allowed the increase of the population and the presence of cities. The importance of such cities
would have allowed to create a militar alliance of Lybio-Phoenician Atlantic cities in the Canary Islands, Morocco, and even Atlantic
Andalusia (in a similar way as Athens did). Such wealthness and increase of power would have worried the Phoenician metropolises,
but surely the commercial competition over undeterminated regions would have provoked the first quarrels; then after some time the
hostilities would have grown so much that there was open war, so that the Atlantic confederation would have conquered Phoenician
colonies in the Western Mediterranean coasts (Spain, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Sardiania, Baleares, etc.). Such situation of unstability,
and the eminent menace over the metropolitan cities and over the Greek colonies of Cyrenaica, would have led to a Greco-Phoenician
alliance to expell the Atlantics and to gain again the economic control of the area, such alliance would have included the Greeks of Magna
Greece and Egyptians to defend their westerner frontiers. According to Critias the Athenians won the battle before that Atlantis sunk...
but the original history could have been perfectly the contrary: that the militar expansion of the Atlantics only was stopped by a volcanic
flank slide that would have ruined whichever Canarian city and whichever Moroccan city that would have received the posterior giant
tsunami: it is too coincidence the quick Greek victory and the quick disapparition of the Atlantean menace, maybe a Greek saw better to
adjudicate to the Greeks the militar end of Atlantis better to assign it to catastrophic causes. Also the wealth, the power and even the size
of Atlantis would have been exagerated in some point of the oral transmission of that history/legend; maybe a chauvinist Egyptian,
or a chauvinist Greek, could not credit that a little island in the Atlantic Ocean would have extended the big menace that Atlantis extended
over his own fatherland and the Mediterranean. This theoric collapse of Atlantis would have been around -750. After the disapparition of
the Atlantean menace, the two principal enemies profited the empty left to gain control over ancient colonies (Phoenicians), or to acquire
new areas of influence and trade (NW Spain, S France to the Greeks). By the Atlantean side, the cities would be ruined, and many lives and
stock would have been lost, leading it to the almost ceasing of civilization in the area in disappearing the elites and remaining only herdsmen
in the mountains, and farmers in the countryside, which would carry what would be a pale continuation of the anterior splendorous culture,
without the knowledge of write, without the knowledge of the potters wheel, and without the knowledge of metalurgy: as the Spaniards
found the natives in the XIV Century.

Of course everything written in this conclusion is hypothetical, but it matches perfectly with the historic, mythic and archaeologic data
available nowadays... maybe it is needed only to dive somewhat more deeply in the Canary Islands, or to dig up solidified ashes, or to check
traces of tsunamis in the Phoenician ruins of Morocco to confirm the theory. If there would be the same passion for the ancient NE Africa
(Egypt) as for NW Africa...



AND MORE MYSTERIES...


By 1981 an expedition lead by Pippo Cappellano found some mysterious basaltic ruins on the ocean floor near the coast of Lanzarote.
At a depth of about 50 feet and over an area of 900 square feet, they found large flat stones that look like they were carefully put into place.
These blocks were followed by wide stone steps. But that’s not all: an undersea wall also was discovered which was formed by recular
triangular blocks.

http://atlantis.religionstatistics.net/
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Apondence Crawford

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   posted 02-20-2006 01:15 AM                       
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Nice work on the library, Riven!
Have you read Plato's other dialogues, by the way, and, if so, do you have any opinion on them?
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   posted 02-20-2006 08:52 AM                       
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Riven, have you read Strabo's Geography? He mentions five cities outside the Pillars of Hercules, in the eastern Atlantic that modern geography cannot locate:

Gymnesiae
Erytheia
Hera's Island
Ebusus
Ophiussa

I think it might be worth it if we did some checking in on them to explore their validity.

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The one true academic search for Atlantis begins at Atlantis Online:

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php

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Posts: 1008 | From: various | Registered: Jul 2004   

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Riven

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  posted 02-22-2006 02:35 PM                       
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Thankyou Isis for those posts, busy little bee you've been!

For the most part in our search for the Library, I know for certain using Google Earth that many of the buildings are still visible upon the earth.

I believe I've found the Serapaeum or it could be the Library itself if the Serapaeum is the Pyramid shaped buildings north east from the library.


When I have a better understanding for lack of it's description at present from ancient authors, I will compile the photos from Google for us at a later time.


One thing is certain is that the WEST side of Alexandria is where the old city was below and just left of the Lighthouse still visible in the Harbour.

What I fear also, is that perhaps the adjacent harbour to the West of The Lighthouse, may have formed after from those lands falling into the sea, and also a possibility of the sudden disappearance of the library to be under water, perhaps, though not certain at this point.

However, many landmarks are still visible which you will see using google earth as "whitened" objects with base frames still visible.


I haven't read much of Strabo's history Chronos and I will look into what you mentioned about Erythreia and such.

It get's complicated because Erythreia is past either pillars...Hercules 1, Gibraltar or Hercules 2, The Red Sea and as such a common name to both locations which the Red Sea Ethiopian is still named Erithreia and the Indian Ocean below her was once called the Erythranaen Ocean as we know from Herodotus also.


Past Gibraltar it could have been either Madeira Island or The Ormonde Seamount, or some extension of Cadiz in earlier times.

Hera as we know sybolized the use of iron, armors and as such should be an island that is abundant in these minerals, perhaps like England or somewhere near Iberian Portugal.


So much research so little time!

[ 02-22-2006, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Riven ]
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Posts: 4048 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

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Riven

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  posted 02-22-2006 02:52 PM                       
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Thankyou for the nice comment Apondence;

One of my favorites was Alcibiades, and one thing that we learn is the genius mind of Socrates through Plato and how to go about seeking Truth.

Sad to have poisoned this great man of history and wisdom, as such I believe Plato was also murdered.

One of Socrates great lessons was in his theologies of how we go about naming things and how proper names should be applied, which helped me to better understand the etymologies behind many names.


The only reason that most of our research is difficult for our Library or for Atlantis, is because they were "suppressed" by Egyptian and Phoenician subjugations through time and even to this day.


We will push through that fabric of time and lies.


As for Plato, he was a man of honor and integrity for this we know from his sacrifices as a Soldier and relied more on resolving the mysteries rather than fabricating fantasies or trying to be some well published author..


after all, he was head of The Academy which also enable him to increase his knowledge with the assistance of his students also.

What I feel is that there are two main reasons why Aristotle became darkened......

1) was because twice over he lost his merit as head of Plato's Academy

2) he lost his favor with King Phillip


What is interesting is that Aristotles's wife is named...


PYTHIAS.

Jumble is a fun game.... of ages past.

HYPATIA.

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.111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.

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Posts: 4048 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003   

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Chronos

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   posted 02-22-2006 03:37 PM                       
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Madeiras Island and maybe Cape Verde are good solutions for the islands Strabo speaks of, Riven, I wonder if some part of Spartel might have also been above sea level in more recent times.

There is much talk of ancient writers also possibly mentioning Atlantis, and yet their accounts don't resemble Plato's. One account by Marcellinius does, though, have you seen it?


quote:
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The account of Ammianus Marcellinus:
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ammianus.html

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Book 15:
6. haec augente vulgatius fama tantum aberat, ut proderet quisquam visa nocturna, ut aegre homines dormisse sese praesentibus faterentur externis, maerebantque docti quidam, quod apud Atlanteos nati non essent, ubi memorantur somnia non videri, quod unde eveniat rerum scientissimis relinquamus.

More common the rumour only was being away these with the increasing, in order that the any was projecting the nocturnal visions, in order that scarcely the men to have slept with the present outward himself were admiting, and the learned certain were bewailing, because at Atlanteuses the sons might be not, where are remembered the dreams not to be seen, which from where happens with the most knowing of the things we relinquish.


Book 17:
7... And therefore Neptune of the moist nature the power [Ennosigaeon] and Sisichthona of the poet the ancients and the theologians have called.

They happen but with the manners of the lands of the movement four.

Or indeed the heavings are, which the ground within encouraging up defeat the most huge masses, as in Asia has escaped Deluses and with Hiera and Anaph and Rhodus, Ophiusa and Pelagia more ahead ages said often, with the gold coin formerly with the rain overspread, and with Eleusina in Boeotia and at Tyrrenuses Vulcan and the more islands;

Or the earthquakes which the limit destroying and slanting the cities the buildings and the mountains smooth out;

Or the earthquakes which more grand movement sudden with the revealed [uoratrinis] devour the parts of the lands, as in sea Atlanticus to Europaeus with the circle more spacious the St. island and in Crisaeus bending with Helic and plough beam and in Ciminia to Italy passed with the part the town Saccumum towards deep Erebuses the openings with the eternal darknesses are hidden.

Between these three species the lands of the movements [mycematiae] with the noise threatening are heard with the loose the elements with the bonds besides jump even fall back with the collapsing lands.

S/he/it is indeed then necessary just as with the of a bull to resound with the lowings the noises and the earthly roars.

But hence towards began.


Book 29:
25. Primo intro vocatus post interrogatiunculas leves Pergamius, a Palladio, ut dictum est, proditus quaedam inprecationibus praescisse nefariis, sicut erat inpendio eloquentior et in verba periculosa proiectus, inter ambigentes iudices, quid prius quaeri debeat quidve posterius, dicere audacter exorsus, multa hominum milia quasi consciorum sine fine strependo fundebat, modo non ab extremo Atlante magnorum criminum arguendos poscens aliquos exhiberi.

With the first Pergamius I enter the urgent calls after the trivial inter-minor questions, from Palladius, as the saying is, projected certain with the imprecations criminal to have got to know beforehand, as with the expense more eloquent was being and into the dangerous words precipitate, between hesitating judges, which the earlier times ought to be asked or why more following, to say boldly began, the much was pouring the thousands of the men as if of the accomplices without boundary resounding, but not from the most outer Atlant of the great indictments proving asking some to be presented.

quo, ut consarcinante nimis ardua, morte multato, aliisque gregatim post illum occisis, ad ipsius Theodori causam quasi ad Olympici certaminis pulverum pervenitur.

Where, as with the stitching together exceedingly the steep places, with the death with the punished, and with the other in flocks after that with the killed, towards the cause of him/it/theirself Theodorus as if about of the Olympan contest of the dusts is reached.
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The quick Latin is done by Rich. It's a pity we can't get a better English translation, but it sounds a bit like the "sinking" of Atlantis.

[ 02-22-2006, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Chronos ]
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Posts: 1008 | From: various | Registered: Jul 2004

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Riven

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  posted 02-23-2006 08:22 PM                       
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I presume we can see why we call the destruction of property Vandalism.

Could these people have effected our Library of Alexandria also?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15268b.htm


Vandals


A Germanic people belonging to the family of East Germans. According to Tacitus, they were originally settled between the Elbe and Vistula. At the time of the War of the Marcomanni (166-81) they lived in what is now Silesia, and in about 271 the Roman Emperor Aurelian was obliged to protect the middle course of the Danube against them. Constantine the Great (about 330) granted them lands in Pannonia on the right bank of the Danube. Through the Emperor Valens (364-78) they accepted Arian Christianity, yet there were also some scattered orthodox Vandals, among whom was Stilicho the minister of the Emperor Honorius.

In 406 the Vandals advanced from Pannonia by way of Gaul, which they devastated terribly, into Spain, where they settled in 411. From 427 their king was Genseric (Gaiseric), who in 429 landed in North Africa with about 80,000 of his followers. It is a disputed point whether or not he was called to Africa by the Roman governor Boniface on account of the intrigues of Aetius. Peace was made between the Romans and Vandals in 435 but it was broken by Genseric in 439, who made Carthage his capital after he had thoroughly plundered it. During the next thirty-five years with a large fleet he ravaged the coasts of the Eastern and Western Empires. In 455 he plundered Rome itself during two weeks.

It is asserted that the Empress Eudoxia had asked him to free her from her hated marriage with the Emperor Petronius Maximus, the murderer of her husband Valentinian III. This story, however, is probably a fable. It is said that on 2 June, 455, Leo the Great received Genseric and implored him to abstain from murder and destruction by fire, and to be satisfied with pillage. Whether the pope's influence saved Rome is, however, questioned; moreover, the Vandals had only booty in mind, nor was the plundering as extreme as later tradition and the expression "Vandalism" would imply. From 462 the Vandal kingdom included Africa and the islands of the Mediterranean, that is Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and the Balearic Islands, but like the other Germanic kingdoms on Roman soil the kingdom of the Vandals in Africa began to decay from the lack of unity of religion and of race among the two populations.

The Vandals treated the Catholics more harshly than other German peoples. Catholic bishops were punished by Genseric with deposition, exile, or death, and laymen were excluded from office and frequently suffered confiscation of their property. It is said of Genseric himself that he was originally a Catholic and had changed to Arianism about 428; this, however, is probably an invention. He protected his Catholic subjects when his relations with Rome and Constantinople were friendly, as during the years 454-57, when the Catholic community at Carthage, being without a head, elected Deogratias bishop. The same was also the case during the years 476-77 when Bishop Victor of Cartenna sent him, during a period of peace, a sharp refutation of Arianism and suffered no punishment. Genseric was one of the most powerful personalities of the era of the Migrations, and was the terror of the seas. He died at a great age on 25 January, 477. According to the law of succession which he had promulgated, not the son but the oldest male member of the royal house was to succeed to the throne (law of seniority). He was succeeded by his incompetent son Hunerich (477- 484), who at first protected the Catholics, owing to his fear of Constantinople, but from 482 he persecuted them in the most terrible manner. King Guntamund (484-96), his cousin and successor, protected them once more, and while Thrasamund (496- 523), owing to his religious fanaticism, was hostile to Catholics, still he contented himself with bloodless persecutions. Hilderich (523-30) favoured the Catholics and granted religious freedom; consequently Catholic synods were once more held in North Africa. Hilderich's policy was opposed by his cousin Gelimer, who raised the banner of national Arianism. Hilderich was deposed and murdered in 533. This was taken as an excuse for interference by the Byzantine Emperor Justinian. Gelimer was defeated in 533 and 534 by Belisarius, the commander of the armies of the Eastern Empire, and North Africa became a Roman province, from which the Vandals were expelled. Gelimer was honourably treated and received large estates in Galicia. He was also offered the rank of a patrician but had to refuse it because he was not willing to change his Arian faith.


The Mysterious Fate of the Great Library of Alexandria

The suspects respectively are a Roman, a Christian and a Moslem - Julius Caesar, Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and Caliph Omar of Damascus.

http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

Julius Caesar - The Civil Wars 47 - 48 BC

the story is taken up by one of his lieutenant's called Hirtius (died 43BC) in The Alexandrine War. It does not include any mention of setting fire to Alexandria but instead states that in fact the city would not burn as it was made purely of stone.

The fire is also not mentioned by Cicero in his philippics against Caesar's ally Mark Anthony. This is a valuable witness for the defence, as Cicero did not like Caesar at all.

The great scholar, Strabo (died after 24AD) was in Alexandria in 20BC and in all his detailed description of the palace and Museum does not mention the library at all. This omission is often explained by scholars claiming that the library was inside the Museum or annexed to it. But even so, not breathing a word about this famous institution is very suspicious. Can we conclude that the library was no longer there but that political constraints meant that its fate still could not be mentioned?


The first mention of the fire at Alexandria would seem to come from Livy (died 17AD) in his History of Rome. The book that it was included in is lost and the surviving Summaries are too brief to include it. However, a second century Epitome written by Florus survives and it says that the fire was started by Caesar to clear the area around his position so the enemy had no cover from which to fire arrows. The library itself is not mentioned by Florus although it was in the same area of the city as Caesar who was occupying the palace at the time.

In fact we do know that the Royal Library is mentioned by Livy because he is later quoted by Seneca (died 65AD) in his dialogue On the Tranquillity of the Mind where he also says that a great number of books were destroyed. It has been asserted that Seneca must have got his knowledge about the destruction of the books from Livy but a close reading of the dialogue does not bear this out. Seneca actually only states that Livy thought the library was "the most distinguished achievement of the good taste and solicitude of kings" and then only so as he can disagree.

The manuscript from Monte Cassino actually reads 40,000 books but this is usually corrected to 400,000 by editors as other sources such as Orosius give this figure for the number of scrolls destroyed.

(However we did already see the intent of Dionysus The Librarian, to ascertain a goal of 500,000 books from the presently accounted 250,000 books-Riven)


Plutarch (died 120AD), in his Life of Caesar throws in a reference to the destruction of the library


Plutarch does not seem to carry a brief against Caesar, although he is happy to criticise him, so we should take this reference seriously. Additionally, he had visited Alexandria and presumably might have noticed if the library was still in existence. Dio Cassius (died 235AD) tells us that warehouses of books near the docks were accidentally burnt by Caesar's men. His words are difficult to pin down and have led some scholars to suggest that only books waiting for export were destroyed.


Aulus Gellius - Attic Nights
Gellius (died 180 AD) included in his Attic Nights contain a brief passage about libraries where the destruction of the Royal Library is mentioned as taking place by accident during our first war against Alexandria when auxiliary soldiers started a fire. This first war was Caesar's campaign and the second was when Octavian took Egypt from Mark Anthony and Cleopatra. In The Vanished Library, Luciano Canfora claims that this passage is an interpolation on the strength that the introduction does not mention it but again the evidence for this seems flimsy. Gellius claims 700,000 books went up in smoke.

One of the final pagan Roman historians, Ammianus Marcellinus (died 395AD), tells us about the fate of the library during an aside about the city of Alexandria in his Roman History. He relates the story of the fire started by Julius Caesar is 'the unanimous belief of the ancient authors' but confuses the library building with the Serapeum and increases the number of scrolls destroyed to 700,000 (perhaps Gellius is his source). The story is repeated with the figure of 400,000 scrolls destroyed by Orosius (died after 415AD), an early Christian historian, in his History against the Pagans. Both these writers are far too late to be accurate sources on their own but they do tell us that by the fourth century the Royal Library was widely believed to have been destroyed by Julius Caesar.

The library as a separate building did not exist by the time of Strabo's visit in 20BC.

The belief that Caesar had destroyed the library was widespread by the time his family no longer occupied the throne of the emperors in the late first century AD. Plutarch, Gellius and Seneca are all evidence for this. We must therefore assume that the library did not exist at this time. Plutarch, a Greek, would certainly have known if it did.


Athenaeus of Naucratis (died after 200AD) mournfully wrote in the Deipnosophistai "And concerning the number of books and the establishment of libraries and the collection in the Museum, why need I even speak when they are all the the memory of men."


Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, is also the patron saint of arsonists. As Christianity slowly strangled the life out of classical culture in the forth century it became more and more difficult to be a pagan. There stood in Alexandria the great temple of Serapis called the Serapeum and attached to it was the Great Library of Alexandria where all the wisdom of the ancients was preserved. Now Theophilus knew that as long as this knowledge existed people would be less inclined to believe the bible so he set about destroying the pagan temples. But the Serapeum was a huge structure, high on a mound and beyond the abilities of the raging Christian fanatics to assault. Faced with this edifice, the Patriarch sent word to Rome. There the Emperor Theodosius the Great, who had ordered that paganism be annihilated, gave his permission for the destruction of the Serapeum. Realising they had no chance, the priests and priestesses fled their temple and the mob moved in. The vast structure was razed to it foundations and the scrolls from the library were burnt in huge pyres in the streets of Alexandria.


Theophilus was indeed the Patriarch of Alexandria at the time that the Serapeum was converted in a Christian church although he has never been made a saint! The date for the events recorded is usually given as 391AD when Theodosius was emperor and energetically converting all his subjects to Christianity. The contention made is that there was another library in the Serapeum temple that a Christian mob destroyed during their sacking of the temple. We need to establish if there really was a library there and also if Theophilus destroyed it.


Plutarch informs us that Mark Anthony gave Cleopatra the entire contents - some 200,000 rolls - of the Pergamon library as a gift.


The 12th century Byzantine scholar, John Tzetzes, in his Prolegomena to Aristophanes preserves some details about the catalogue of the poet Callimachus (died after 250BC) who said there were nearly 500,000 scrolls in the Royal Library and another 42,000 odd in the outer or public library. Note that Callimachus is not known to have referred to the Serapeum Library although he is often assumed to be doing so. The fourth century Bishop Epiphanius of Cyprus (died 402AD) in his Weights and Measures (actually a biblical commentary!) says that there were over 50,000 volumes in the 'daughter' library that he places in the Serapeum.

(Interesting, because from Tzetzes comment from Callimachus stating that one library was large and the other smaller (such as 1/10 in size) would lead me to believe that the Pentagonal (5 sided Pyramid) shaped buildings south of the lighthouse would have been where the library stood as these foundations are still visible by Google Earth-Riven)


Epiphanius also tells us that by his day the entire Bruchion quarter of Alexandria was laid waste, no doubt doe the the actions of Aurelian or Diocletian. There is a detailed report of the acropolis of Alexandria in a Progymnasmata by Aphthonius of Ephesus (died after 400AD) which he presents as an example of how to give a description. He speaks of book repositories open to the public and we can assume this refers to the Serapeum.

(It is my belief that we may in fact be referring to 3 libraries here...

1) The Alexandrian
2) The shall we call it Chalcidium Public Library (smaller pentagon)

3)and south west from these main libraries the large rectangular East/West facing Serapaeum, most likely a "special initiated mysteries" library

All that being stated, we have definite proof that the libraries were dismantled,and not burnt as Google Earth shows us, however, we can see the docks were burnt just below the lighthouse, and in no way able to reach the Parian Marble buildings - Riven 

Despite the continuation of academic activity, Alexandria suffered much in the years up to 391AD. Augustus reduced it, Caracalla massacred many of its citizens over a perceived insult and Aurelian also sacked the city and the palace quarter in which the Museum was situated. Finally, the city was taken with great destruction by Diocletian at the start of the fourth century.


I do have the pictures saved, but, who would believe me anyway?

They don't believe my Atlantis pictures, as blind and denounced as they are.

They'll just say I modified them.....


hee hee 

Theyre in for a Surprise.


Look with Google Earth South of the lighthouse and just west after you see the pentagonal buildings to the Serapaeum near the south west "inner harbour".

You'll see the base frames.

Enjoy!


Your True Atlantean King. 
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Posts: 4048 | From: Azores Atlantis Isles. | Registered: May 2003