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Pagan Beliefs vs. Christianity (A Second Darkness Covers the Lands) - Original

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Heather Delaria
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 10:56:38 pm »

 
Ishtar

Member
Member # 736

  posted 11-11-2005 09:04 AM                       
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msnbc.msn.com/id/9950210/

Archaeologists unveil ancient church in Israel
Discovery made on prison grounds near biblical site Armageddon

MEGIDDO PRISON, Israel - Israeli prisoner Ramil Razilo was removing rubble from the planned site of a new prison ward when his shovel uncovered the edge of an elaborate mosaic, unveiling what Israeli archaeologists said Sunday may be the Holy Land’s oldest church.

The discovery of the church in the northern Israeli town of Megiddo, near the biblical Armageddon, was hailed by experts as an important discovery that could reveal details about the development of the early church in the region. Archaeologists said the church dated from the third century, decades before Constantine legalized Christianity across the Byzantine Empire.

“What’s clear today is that it’s the oldest archaeological remains of a church in Israel, maybe even in the entire region. Whether in the entire world, it’s still too early to say,” said Yotam Tepper, the excavation’s head archaeologist.

Israeli officials were giddy about the discovery, with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon calling the church “an amazing story.”

Vatican officials also hailed the find.

“A discovery of this kind will make Israel more interesting to all Christians, for the church all over the world,” said Archbishop Pietro Sambi, the Vatican envoy to Jerusalem. “If it’s true that the church and the beautiful mosaics are from the third century, it would be one of the most ancient churches in the Middle East.”

Razilo, who is serving a two-year sentence for traffic violations, was one of about 50 prisoners brought into the high-security Megiddo Prison to help excavate the area before the construction of new wards for 1,200 Palestinian prisoners.

Razilo was shocked to uncover the edge of the mosaic. The inmates worked for months to uncover all the parts of the mosaic — the floor of the church, he said.

“We continued to look and slowly we found this whole beautiful thing,” said Razilo, who used a sponge and a bucket of water to clean dirt off the uncovered mosaics Sunday.

Two mosaics inside the church — one covered with fish, an ancient Christian symbol that predated the widespread use of the cross symbol — tell the story of a Roman officer and a woman named Aketous who donated money to build the church in the memory “of the god, Jesus Christ.”

Pottery remnants from the third century, the style of Greek writing used in the inscriptions, ancient geometric patterns in the mosaics and the depiction of fish rather than the cross indicate that the church was no longer used by the fourth century, Tepper said.

The church’s location, not far from the spot where the New Testament says the final battle between good and evil will take place, also made sense because a bishop was active in the area at the time, said Tepper, who works with the Israel Antiquities Authority.

The inscription, which specifies that Aketous donated a table to the church, indicates the house of worship predated the Byzantine era, when Christians began using altars in place of tables in their rituals, Tepper said. Remnants of a table were uncovered between the two mosaics.

The building — most of which was destroyed — also was not built in the Basilica style that was standard under the Byzantines, he added.

Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar and professor at the Holy Land University, said the second and third centuries were transitional periods where people sought to define their religious beliefs and modes of worship. Iconography and inscriptions found in Nazareth and Caperneum — places where Jesus lived — show that people went there to worship, although most did so secretly.

“This was a time of persecution and in this way it is quite surprising that there would be such a blatant expression of Christ in a mosaic, but it may be the very reason why the church was destroyed,” Pfann said.

The dig will continue as archaeologists try to uncover the rest of the building and its surroundings, including what they believe could be a baptismal site, Tepper said

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Heather Delaria
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 10:57:20 pm »

Ishtar

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  posted 11-11-2005 09:49 AM                       
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Some Critiques of the Feminist/New Age "Goddess" Claims


on Marija Gimbutas' 'Idyllic Goddess' Theories:


- from "Idyllic Theory of Goddess Creates Storm"
by Peter Steinfels (New York Times, Feb. 13, 1990):

"the skepticism about this thesis by many leading
archaeologists and anthropologists is unmistakable, although it
always comes with expressions of deep respect for Dr. Gimbutas'
other contributions and with concern for her struggles with
lymphatic cancer.
Yet the growing acceptance of her theories among nonexperts
has led some of these scholars to feel that they should make
their own criticism more widely known. In the end, they say, Dr.
Gimbutas' work raises sensitive questions not only about
prehistoric civilization but also about the relationship between
speculation and scholarship and between scholarship and social
movements....
Her ideas have been welcomed by eminent figures like the
mythologist Joseph Campbell, who wrote a forward to Dr. Gimbutas'
latest volume before he died in 1987, and the anthropologist
Ashley Montagu, who hailed that book as "a benchmark in the
history of civilization."
But many other investigators of prehistoric Europe have not
shared the enthusiasm. Bernard Wailes, a professor of
anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania, says that most of
Dr. Gimbutas' peers consider her "immensely knowledgable but not
very good in critical analysis. "
"She amasses all the data and then leaps to conclusions
without any intervening argument," Dr. Wailes said. "Most of us
tend to say, oh my God, here goes Marija again," he said.
Ruth Tringham is a professor of anthropology at the
University of California at Berkeley, who is an authority on the
same time and geographical area of prehistoric Europe as Dr.
Gimbutas. Choosing pages at random from "The Language of the
Goddess," she repeatedly voiced dismay over assertions that
demanded, she said, serious qualifications.
"No other archaeologist I know would express this
certainty," Dr. Tringham said.
Linda Ellis, an archaeologist at San Francisco State
University ... makes it clear that she thinks Dr. Gimbutas has
gone too far.
David Anthony, an assistant professor of anthropology at
Hartwick College in Oneonta, N.Y., whose area of research also
coincide closely with Dr. Gimbutas's, said that contrary to her
claims, the cultures of Old Europe built fortified sites that
indicate the presence of warfare. There is also evidence of
weapons, including some used as symbols of status, and of human
sacrifice, hierarchy, and social inequality ...
There is also no evidence that women played the central
role, in either the social structure or the religion of Old
Europe, he said. These were "important and impressive societies,"
he said, but rather than Dr. Gimbutas' "Walt Disney version" they
were "extremely foreign to anything we're familiar with"...
"In a way she's a very brave woman, very brave to step over
the boundary and take a guess," said Dr. Ellis. But Dr. Ellis
strongly rejects Dr. Gimbutas' detailed assertions.
Dr. Gimbutas calls the enthusiastic reception of her work by
artists and feminists "an incredible gift" coming late in her
life. But "I was not a feminist and never had any thought I would
be helping feminists," she said.
Still, "The Language of the Goddess" rings with a fervent
belief that knowledge about a Goddess-worshipping past can guide
the world toward a sexually egalitarian, nonviolent, and "earth-
centered" future.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

- from "The Goddess Theory" by Jacques Leslie
(Los Angeles Times Magazine, June 11, 1989)


"Nevertheless, Gimbutas remains a black sheep within
academia; even colleagues who admire her other work express
skepticism about her description of ancient Europe. Edgar C.
Polome, a leading Indo-European scholar at the University of
Texas and co-editor of a volume of essays published in honor of
Gimbutas, calls her portrayal of Old Europe "a bit of a dream-
world." Kees Bolle, a UCLA religion history professor and a
friend of Gimbutas', says she has "a peculiar romantic strand"
that causes her to "overestimate" pre-Indo-European societies.
Most archaeologists think that Gimbutas' interpretation goes
far beyond the tenative conclusions that can be drawn from her
data. Ian Hodder, a Cambridge University archaeologist whose
field of expertise overlaps Gimbutas', calls her work "extremely
important" because it provides a "coherent and wide-ranging view
of the evidence," but he rejects her interpretation of symbols.
"She looks at squiggles on a pot and says it's a primeval egg or
a snake, or she looks at female figurines and says they're mother
goddesses. I don't really think there's an awful lot of evidence
to support that level of interpretation."
Alan McPherron, an anthroplogy professor at the University
of Pittsburgh, buttresses Hodder's view. McPherron says that
after he published a book describing a dig he led in Yugoslavia,
Gimbutas designated one of the excavated structures a temple,
even though it was distinguished from surrounding houses only by
its slightly greater size. "In my opinion, it's no more a temple
than I am a monkey," McPherron says.
Many archaeologists believe that one reason Gimbutas has
caught laymen's attention is that she habitually presents
debatable assertions as fact. Ruth Tringham, an archaeologist at
UC Berkeley, says the evidence from early societies is far too
murky to allow such definitive statements. "I would never write,
'This is the obvious conclusion' - there is nothing obvious about
what we write. Whatever we write is always, 'it could be this, it
could be that'. Our problem is that the public isn't attracted by
that kind of ambiguous thinking."
Since Gimbutas often omits the logical steps by which she
arrives at her conclusions, Tringham says she has no way to judge
the validity of the conclusions, and therefore can't accept them.
Tringham is unconvinced, for example, that Gimbutas' figurines
represent goddesses, or that neolithic cultures were dominated by
women.
Like many other archaeologists, Tringham is reluctant to
criticise Gimbutas because she does not wish to thwart the
feminist objectives with which Gimbutas' ideas are associated.
Nevertheless, she says: "What Gimbutas is trying to do is to make
a generalized stage of evolution type of interpretation, in which
all societies at one time are [dominated by women] and then they
all change to another kind. But prehistory is much more
complicated than that. Anthropologists left that behind a long
time ago".....
In some ways, the controversy reflects a classic conflict
between science and art. To scholars who think that archaeology
is legitimate only to the degree that it is grounded in science,
Gimbutas' grandiose claims are too far-fetched even to merit
consideration. And she considers her colleagues too passionless,
too unintuitive, too alienated from nature to understand the
prehistoric past. Gimbutas' theories are suspect, conceivably
flatly wrong, yet they resonate far more than her colleagues'
arid treatises. Whether or not the world she describes existed,
her advocates feel as if they've glimpsed it, and long for its
return.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- from "Did Goddess Worship Mark Ancient Age of Peace?
by Jay Matthews (The Washington Post, Jan. 7, 1990)

The Lithuanian-born UCLA professor's work stands as one of
the most breathtaking examples of a new surge of feminist-
oriented scholarship and has inspired some skepticism. Brian
***an, archaeologist at the University of California, Santa
Barbara, called the thesis "pretty controversial," and a female
scholar, who asked not to be identified, spoke of "goddess
groupies ... trying to influence modern social change in a
direction a lot of us would like to go" ...
***an said the notion of a peaceful, female-centered ancient
Europe dates back at least a century but has enjoyed a resurgence
in the last decade or two as the feminist perspective has
affected the way university scholars are examining old questions.
Margarey Conkey, associate professor of anthropology at the
University of California at Berkeley, said she thinks Gimbutas
has made "important contributions" in emphasising the
"mythological traditions" of prehistoric societies but that she
and others have "a lot of problems" with Gimbutas' sweeping
conclusions....
"Little by little, we became a patriarchal and warrior
society," [Gimbutas] said. "We dominate nature; we don't feel we
belong to her. This warrior society goes back to the Indo-
European conquest of Europe, which eventually led to such people
as Stalin and Hitler. We have to come back to our roots."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- from "The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles"
by Ronald Hutton (Oxford: Blackwell, 1991) - p. 37-42

"By the 1950s, prehistorians had achieved agreement upon the
question of their origins [European megaliths]. They were
described as being the result of an idea brought up from more
advanced Mediterranean civilizations, together with the cult of a
Great Goddess or Earth Mother. Both parts of this concept were
shattered at the end of the 1960s, the notion of the Goddess in
circumstances which will be described later, and the belief in a
Mediterranean origin by the discovery of faults in the Carbon 14
dating process... [p. 19]
It was the world of late nineteenth and early twentieth-
century scholarship which extended the idea into principle that
prehistoric peoples had believed in such a universal deity
[Goddess]. Once this decision had been taken, evidence was easily
produced to suubstantiate it, by the simple device of treating
any female representations from the Old and New Stone Ages as
images of this being. Refernce has been made in chapter 1 to the
practice in the case of the Paleolithic 'Venuses'. Any male image
could be explained away as the son and/or lover of the Great
Mother. During the mid-twentieth century, scholars such as
Professor [Glyn] Daniel and the equally celebrated O.G.S.
Crawford extended the Goddess' range by accepting that any
representation of a human being in the Stone Ages, if not firmly
identified as male, could be accepted as her images. Even a face,
or a pair of eyes, were interpreted in this way. Because spirals
could be thought of as symbols of eyes, they also formed part of
the Goddess' iconography, as did circles, cups, and pits. In the
mind of a historian of art like Michael Dames, the process
reached the point at which a hole in a stone signified her
presence. Mr. Dames was doing no more than summing up a century
of orthodox scholarship when he proclaimed that 'Great Goddess
and Neolithic go together as naturally as mother and child' [_The
Silbury Treasure_, London, 1976, p. 51].
As a matter of fact, when Dames published those words in
1976, they were about seven years out of date. In 1968 and 1969
two prehistorians directed criticisms at this whole edifice of
accepted scholarly belief which brought it all down for ever. One
was Peter Ucko, in his monograph _Anthropomorphic Figurines of
Predynastic Egypt and Neolithic Crete_ .... Professor Ucko
reminded readers that a large minority of Neolithic figurines
were male or asexual, that few if any statuettes had signs of
majesty or supernatural power, and that few of them had
accentuated sexual characteristics (the 'pubic triangles' on many
of them could be loincloths). He warned against glib
interpretations of the gestures portrayed upon figures; thus,
early Egyptian figurines of women holding their breasts had been
taken as 'obviously' significant of maternity or fertility, but
the Pyramid Texts had revealed that in Egypt this was the female
sign of grief.... all over the globe clay models very similar to
those of the Neolithic are made as children's dolls. Just as in
the modern West, most are intended for girls and are themselves
female. Another widespread use of such figures is in sympathetic
magic ... there was absolutely no need to interpret them
everywhere as the same female or male deity.
The second attack was made by Andrew Fleming, in an article
in the periodical _World Archaeology_ uncompromisingly entitled
'The Myth of the Mother Goddess.' He pointed out the simple fact
that there was absolutely no proof that spirals, circles, and
dots were symbols for eyes, that eyes, faces, and genderless
figures were symbols of a female or that female figures were
symbols of a goddess. This blew to pieces the accepted chain of
goddess-related imagery from Anatolia round the coasts to
Scandinavia. He was helped by the revolution in the carbon-dating
process, which disproved the associated belief that megalithic
architecture had travelled from the Levant with the cult of the
Great Mother...
There was no answer possible to Ucko and Fleming, and during
the 1970s the scepticism which they embodied proceeded to erode
more of the Mother Goddess's reputed range. Ruth Whitehouse
['Megaliths of the Central Mediterranean' in Renfrew, _The
Megalithic Monuments of Western Europe_] considered the statue
pillars of Italy, Sardinia, and Corsica, which had been treated
as part of the deity's iconography, and found that only a few had
any female characteristics; many, indeed, carried weapons. Even
Malta, long considered one of the most obvious centres of
Neolithic goddess worship, fell before David Trump ['Megalithic
Architecture in Malta' in Renfrew, op. cit.]. He pointed out that
although some of the Maltese statuettes were certainly female,
many of the large cult statues were kilted, flat-chested and
generally androgynous...
However, the same mood of iconoclasm in the late 1960s which
inspired Peter Ucko and Andrew Fleming brought into being a
women's movement bent upon challenging patriarchy in both society
and religion. Professor Ucko's book was an academic monograph
with a forbidding title, while Dr. Fleming's essay was lodged in
a scholarly periodical; the old popular works were still lining
public library shelves (and indeed being reprinted), and they
provided some radicals with precisely the universal female deity
they had been seeking. At the very moment that the concept of the
Neolithic Great Mother crumbled inside academe, it found more
enthusiastic adherents among the general public than ever before.
This tendency was enhanced by the appearance in 1974 of Marija
Gimbutas' beautiful book _The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe_
[Berkeley: University of California Press]. It deserved praise
for two great achievements: it established that the Neolithic
cultures of the Balkans had left a huge trove of figurines,
statues and painted ceramics, and it provided a feast of new
images for historians of art and indeed for artists themselves.
Yet Professor Gimbutas' interpretation of those images caused
much scholarly concern. She accepted Peter Ucko's work to the
extent of speaking of different goddesses and gods instead of
one. But she completely ignored his other criteria by regarding a
very large range of human representations, especially among the
statuettes, as divine, and proceeding to classify them
confidently with no justification other than her own taste. She
explained the significance of geometrical symbols in the same
fashion, and in subsequent works went on to complete her portrait
of a goddess-worshipping, woman-centered, peaceful and creative
Neolithic Balkan civilization, destroyed by savage patriarchal
invaders. There is good archaeological evidence to cast doubt
upon this, but Professor Gimbutas has refused to recognize it.
The mixture of affection and frustration which her work inspires
is neatly summed up by her Festschrift, the collection of essays
by admiring colleagues customarily presented to a distinguished
scholar who is approaching the formal age of retirement. That
delivered to Professor Gimbutas is characterized by both deep
respect for herself and profound dissent from her views...
[Catal Huyuk in Turkey, discovered by James Mellart in the
1950s, is the largest Neolithic settlement yet known.] Mr.
Mellart returned to the subject once more, in a detailed text for
students, _The Neolithic of the Far East_, published in 1975. By
now Peter Ucko's warnings had made their impact upon academe, and
Mr. Mellart scrupulously avoided any interpretations of the kind
which he had made earlier. He now spoke only of 'female
figurines', male statuettes', and ex-voto figures', and raised
the possibility that some were dolls. When he wrote of the
Balkans, in the wake of Marija Gimbutas's book, he carefully
declined to repeat any of her interpretations of the finds there.
But this dry, densely written academic text made no impression
upon the public, whereas his own popular book of ten years
earlier [_Earliest Civilizations of the Near East_] had now been
reissued in paperback. Read with the works of Professor Gimbutas,
it produced strong and escalating interest in Catal Huyuk among
the same sort of feminist writers and artists who were taking up
the Mother Goddess. By the time feminist philosopher Riane Eisler
published in the mid-1980s [San Francisco: _The Chalice and the
Blade_, 1987], the settlement was confidently believed by them to
have been matriarchal in its society as well as its religion, and
also - or rather, 'therefore' - a peaceful community requiring
neither weapons nor defences (a claim contradicted in Mr.
Mellart's original textbook)...
Ian Hodder has recently taken a fresh look at this evidence
and the context in which it is set ['Contextual Archaeology: An
Interpretation of Catal Huyuk and a discussion of the Origins of
Agriculture', _London University Institute of Archaeology
Bulletin_ 1987, 24, pp.43-56]. He notes that women were buried
with ornaments and cosmetic boxes, men with weapons of war and
hunting and implements of agriculture; that women were portrayed
far more often in the figurines, usually ****, while men were
portrayed most often in the wall-paintings, clothed and usually
engaged in hunting; that the art placed a great emphasis on wild
nature and little upon agriculture or domestic tasks; and that
the living spaces around the hearths and the cooking-pots were
never decorated like the rest of the hearth...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -


On Gimbutas' "Kurgan Invasion" Hypothesis:

- from "In Search of the Indo-Europeans" by J.P. Mallory
(London: Thames & Hudson, 1991)

...the present formulation of this theory owes much to the
publications of Marija Gimbutas who has argued for over twenty-
five years that the Proto-Indo-Europeans should be identified
with her Kurgan tradition ... The capsule image of the Kurgan
tradition is a warlike pastoral society, highly mobile ... [p.
182-3]
The Kurgan solution is attractive and has been accepted by
many archaeologists and linguists, in part or in total ... One
might at first imagine that the economy of argument involved with
the Kurgan solution should oblige us to accept it outright. But
critics do exist and their objections can be summarized quite
simply - almost all of the arguments for invasion and cultural
transformations are far better explained without reference to
Kurgan expansions, and most of the evidence so far presented is
either totally contradicted by other evidence or is the result of
gross misinterpretation of the cultural history of Eastern,
Central, and Northern Europe [p. 185; detailed discussion follows
in next two chapters].


- from _European Prehistory_ by Sarunas Milisauskas
(New York: Academic Press, 1978, p. 183.)

Many scholars, especially Gimbutas (1956, 1965, 1973) have
maintained that the Late Neolithic saw not only the influx of
pastoralists from the steppe regions of the southern Ukraine but
also the appearance of the Indo-European speaking peoples in
various parts of Europe. However, to demonstrate a prehistoric
migration or even the presence of a pastoral economy is not a
simple matter. As we shall see, the migration hypothesis should
be treated with caution.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


on Marija Gimbutas' "Language of the Goddess"

- from Hutton, op. cit., p. 346.


Its many illustrations make it a wonderful gift to artists:
that apart, it is a personal dream-world infused with the
author's political preoccupations. It makes wholly arbitrary and
selective interpretation of the prehistoric symbols which it
reproduces, and tacks onto this an interpretation of the historic
Great Witch Hunt which is based not even upon dubious scholarship
but upon assertions of modern pagans made without research.
Overall, the book is an extended and very beautiful radical
feminist tract.


- from a review by Ruby Rohrlich in "The Women's Review
of Books" (Vol. VII, No. 9, June, 1990)

The reknowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley has shown that
in Sumer, the first civilization in the Old World, the earliest
dynastic rulers practiced human sacrifice. Others have made
similar findings. Gimbutas seems to accept human sacrifice as a
corroboration, not a refutation, of hr thesis; she argues that
such sacrifice strengthens the life-force by conveying the energy
of the victim to the sacrificer...
Gimbutas proposes a single, simplistic theory - invasion by
violent, patriarchal Indo-Europeans - to account for the changes
that radically transformed human society in this period...
Despite its theoretical weaknesses, _The Language of the
Goddess_ is a book to cherish for its spectacular reproductions
alone ... If nothing else, Gimbutas' herculean labors have borne
fruit in a magnificent collection of the art of our early
ancestors, a treasure trove for anthropologists, art historians,
teachers, and students.

[RS note: Rohrlich is a feminist scholar who makes the
highly-dubious claim that ancient Crete was a "matriarchy"
(in _Becoming Visible - Women in European History_,
Bridenthal & Koonz, eds., Houghton Mifflin, 1977, chapter
2)]


- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dubious Assertions by Marija Gimbutas:

- from an interview in the "Whole Earth Review",
Spring, 1989.

" 'Old Europe' is my term for the culture which was
matrifocal, not patriarchal, non-Indo-European.... The social
structure *didn't* change [for 20,000 years]. The matrifocal
social structure continued from the Paleolithic into the
Neolithic and therefore the goddesses were the same.... I
discovered at Achilleion - this is northern Greece - one temple
above another. They were in the shape of houses.... The huge
herds [of the Indo-European pastoral nomads] had to be controlled
by the man, and I think this was the primary cause why patriarchy
became established.
Question: How can you tell if you've gone too far in drawing
conclusions?
Gimbutas: Well, this has to do with your intuition and
experience. Just like an art creation you must feel that you are
right in what you are saying.


- from _The Language of the Goddess_
(San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1989, p. xx - xxi):

The Goddess-centered art with its striking absence of images
of warfare and male domination, reflects a social order in which
women as heads of clans or queen-priestesses played a central
part. Old Europe and Anatolia, as well as Minoan Crete, were a
gylany. [MG footnote: Riana Eisler in her book _The Chalice and
the Blade_ (1987) proposes the term gylyany (_gy_ from "woman,"
_an_ from _andros_, "man", and the letter l between the two
standing for the linking of both halves of humanity) for the
social structure where both sexes were equal.] A balanced,
nonpatriarchal and nonmatriarchal social system is reflected by
religion, mythologies, and folklore, by studies of the social
structure of Old European and Minoan cultures, and is supported
by the continuity of the elements of a matrilineal system in
ancient Greece, Etruria, Rome, the Basque, and other countries of
Europe...
So the repeated disturbances and incursions by Kurgan people
(whom I view as Proto-Indo-European) put an end to the Old
European culture roughly between 4300 and 2800 B.C., changing it
from gylanic to androcratic and from matrilineal to patrilineal.
The Aegean and Mediterranean regions and western Europe escaped
the process the longest; there, especially in the islands such as
Thera, Crete, Malta, and Sardinia, Old European culture
flourished in an enviably peaceful and creative civilization
until 1500 B.C., a thousand to 1500 years after central Europe
had been thoroughly transformed...
We are still living under the sway of that aggressive male
invasion and only beginning to discover our long alienation from
our authentic European Heritage - gylanic, nonviolent, earth-
centered culture.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

on Riane Eisler's "The Chalice and the Blade":

- from "The Goddess Theory" by Jacques Leslie
(Los Angeles Times Magazine, June 11, 1989)


"Equally significantlly, a book called "The Chalice and the
Blade," written by Riane Eisler, used Gimbutas' ideas as its
cornerstone for arguing that features of modern civilization such
as patriarchy, warfare, and competitiveness are recent historical
developments, introduced by the villanous Indo-Europeans. Far
from being inevitable, Eisler claims, the ills of modern
civilization can be blamed on its unbalanced embrace of masculine
values. Societies that cherish the Earth, as Gimbutas and Eisler
argue that the Old Europeans did, would not waste their wealth on
nuclear arsenals, nor would they allow life on the planet to be
threatened by environmental problems. Published in 1987, "The
Chalice and the Blade" is now in its seventh printing and enjoys
a kind of cult prominence within the women's movement.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Conclusion:

The feminist/New Age "Idyllic Goddess" theory is not an
intellectually-respectable hypothesis. It was invented by
conjecturing far beyond what available facts will permit, guided
by a political agenda, and "validated" by intuition. While a
belief in a universal Goddess of the Neolithic was widely-held by
scholars several decades ago, recent scholarly critiques have
exposed serious difficulties with this view, and it is now quite
discredited within academe. The overwhelming majority of
anthropologists and archaeologists reject Gimbutas' interpreta-
tions and conjectures on "the Goddess"; however, most of them are
reluctant to speak out too strongly, out of sympathy for their
ailing colleague, and for her feminist goals.

Yet in spite of its rejection by scholars, the Idyllic Goddess
theory has found enormous support among certain segments of the
general public, because it appeals to their preconceived beliefs.
Thus Gimbutas' Goddess theories should be placed alongside those
of Velikovsky and Von Daniken: belief-systems which, while
enjoying a cult-like popularity among certain groups of laymen,
are rejected virtually _in toto_ by scholars who have worked in
the field. They are classic examples of pseudo-science.


Robert Sheaffer

--------------------
“Ad initio, alea iacta est.”
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
it's Later Than You Think
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 10:57:40 pm »

Allison
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Heather, I admit I had to laugh when I saw the heading "How to Share the Gospel with Pagans". The "gospel", IMO, should not be shared with anyone at all unless they ask for it to be. I think there is way more than adequate evidence to prove that xtianity is modeled almost verbatim on Paganism and THAT is precisely why the xtians felt so compelled to eradicate Paganism and force Pagans to convert. You see, we could serve no purpose but to foil their grand plan for control through fear. They wanted to stop us from using our gifts, but they have not been very successful, I'd say because what do you think is the fastest growing religion in this country right now? Hint - it's not xtianity. 

There are a lot of people out there who are unbalanced and unstable who call themselves "Pagans", but they are free to CALL themselves whatever they wish but at the end of the day they don't walk the talk. I have met many of them and for the most part they are well intended, but victims of a lack of guidance and I am glad to teach and help any who ASK. Then there's the ones who are lacking a part of their soul and live only to siphon energy from others (I am sure that you have encountered this sort on your journey down this path - you know the feeling of being drained). For them I offer nothing because they are the ones most certain to use it for negative ends. Usually that sort are fortunately unable to comprehend what this about anyway and should have just stayed xtian.
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 10:58:05 pm »

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Paganism

Within a Christian context, Paganism (from Latin paganus) and Heathenry are catch-all terms which have come to connote a broad set of spiritual/religious beliefs and practices of a natural religion, as opposed to the Abrahamic religions. These beliefs, which are not necessarily compatible with each other, are usually characterized by polytheism and animism. Often, the term has the same pejorative connotations as infidel and Kafir.

Etymology

Pagan
The term pagan is from Latin paganus, an adjective originally meaning "rural", "rustic" or "of the country". As a noun, paganus was used to mean "country dweller, villager". "Peasant" is a cognate, via Old French paisent. C. f. Harry Thurston Peck, Harper's Dictionary of Classical Antiquity (1897) [1].

In its distant origins, these usages derived from pagus, "province, countryside", earlier "something stuck in the ground", as a landmark, cognate to Greek άγος "rocky hill". The root pag- means "fixed" and is also the source of the words "page", "pale" (stake), and "pole", as well as "pact" and "peace". Later, through metaphorical use, paganus came to mean 'rural district, village' and 'country dweller' and, as the Roman Empire declined into military autocracy and anarchy, in the 4th and 5th centuries it came to mean "civilian", in a sense parallel to the English usage "the locals". It was only after the Roman introduction of serfdom, in which agricultural workers were legally bound to the land (see Serf), that it began to have negative connotations, and imply the simple ancient religion of country people, which Virgil had mentioned respectfully in Georgics. Like its approximate synonym heathen (see below), it was adopted by Middle English-speaking Christians as a slur to refer to those too rustic to embrace Christianity.

Neoplatonists in the Early Christian church attempted to Christianize the values of sophisticated pagans such as Plato and Virgil. This had some influence among the literate class, but did little to counter the more general prejudice expressed in "pagan".
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 10:58:27 pm »

Valerie

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Terminology


"Paganism" vs. "pagan"

Although the etymology of pagan can be tracked and its antiquity is known, the term paganism, appears not to have been widely used until much later, though paganismus is a term employed by Augustine. There is no evidence that the term is used in English before the 17th century. The OED instances Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776): "The divisions of Christianity suspended the ruin of paganism."

It is possible that the various pagan practices were not seen as instances of a more general 'paganism' at all until the point when the term was used to blur distinctions between non-Christian beliefs and make of them one homogenous, primitive mass. The term paganism thus belongs in a colonial or missionary context, in which it is used to describe a state rather than an organized belief system.

Common Word Usage
The term has historically been used as a pejorative by adherents of monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam) to indicate a disbeliever in their religion. "Paganism" is also sometimes used to mean the lack of (an accepted monotheistic) religion, and therefore sometimes means essentially the same as atheism. "Paganism" frequently refers to the religions of classical antiquity, most notably Greek mythology or Roman religion, and can be used neutrally or admiringly by those who refer to those complexes of belief. However, until the rise of Romanticism and the general acceptance of freedom of religion in Western civilization, "paganism" was almost always used disparagingly of heterodox beliefs falling outside of the established political framework of the Christian Church. It has more recently (from the 19th century) been used admiringly by those who believe the monotheistic religions to be confining or colourless.

"Pagan" came to be equated with a popular, Christianized sense of "epicurean" to signify a person who is sensual, materialistic, self-indulgent, unconcerned with the future and uninterested in sophisticated religion. The word was usually used in this worldly sense by those who were drawing attention to the limitations of paganism, as when G.K. Chesterton wrote:

"The pagan set out, with admirable sense, to enjoy himself. By the end of his civilization he had discovered that a man cannot enjoy himself and continue to enjoy anything else."

Perhaps such usages reflect more light on Victorians than on the world of Antiquity.

Heathenry
Old English hæðen refers to people who are neither Christians nor Jews. The term is used for Germanic paganism, or Germanic Neopaganism. The term 'heathenry' can be used to denote both the ancient pagan religion of the Germanic peoples and modern reconstructed versions of that religion such as Ásatrú. The linguistic/anthropological term 'Germanic' refers to a group of Northern European tribes who at one point shared a common language, culture and religion. By the year 500 CE, the Germanic culture had spread out into the areas of Europe which were to become present day Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Germany, Holland, and England. By the year 700 CE, the various dialects of the common-Germanic language were becoming mutually unintelligible and evolving into German, Dutch, English, and the Scandinavian languages.

Heathenry, like all ancient European pagan religions, is polytheistic.
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2007, 10:58:54 pm »

Valerie

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Pagan classifications
Pagan subdivisions coined by Isaac Bonewits [2]

Paleo-Paganism: A Pagan culture that has not been disrupted by other civilizations or other cultures. This does not include any known cultures. Indeed, this absolutely, by definition, cannot include any sort of living culture, since all cultures have been "disrupted" by their neighbors to some extent or another.
Meso-Paganism: A group, which is, or has been, influenced by a conquering culture, but has been able to maintain an independence of religious practices. This includes Native Americans and Australian Aborigine Bushmen.
Syncreto-Paganism: A culture, which has been conquered but adopts and merges the conquering culture's religious practices with their own. This includes Haitian Vodou, and Santería.
Neo-Paganism: An attempt by modern people to reconnect with nature, pre-Christian religions, or other nature-based spiritual paths. This definition includes such religions as Ásatrú, Neo-Druidism, and Wicca.
This system of classification completely leaves out any possibility of classifying Hindu religions or Shinto as "paganism", due to Hinduism and Shinto being the religions of dominant cultures (India and Japan). Likewise, it would exclude the state religion of the pre-Christian Roman Empire.

These subdivisions are circulated on the Internet as 'anthropological' definitions of Paganism, but they do not derive from anthropology.

Pagan religions

Ancient Greek religion
Roman religion
Finnish paganism
Ancient Near East Paganism
Paganism in the Eastern Alps
Uniterranism

Neopaganism

Main article: Neopaganism

In another sense, as used by modern practitioners, paganism is a polytheistic, panentheistic or pantheistic often nature-based religious practice, but again can be atheism sometimes as well. This includes reconstructed religions such as Hellenismos, Ásatrú as well as more recently founded religions such as Wicca c. 1960, and these are normally categorised as "Neopaganism". Although Neopagans often refer to themselves simply as "Pagan", for purposes of clarity this article will focus on the ancient religion, while Neopaganism is discussed in its own article.

This also includes religions such as Forn Sed, Celtic Neo-druidism, Longobardic odinism, Lithuanian Romuva, and Slavic Rodoverie that claim to revive an ancient religion rather than reconstruct it, though in general the difference is not absolutely fixed. Many of these revivals, Wicca, Asatru and Neo-druidism in particular, have their roots in 19th century Romanticism and retain noticeable elements of occultism or theosphy that were current then, setting them apart from historical rural (paganus) folk religion. The Íslenska Ásatrúarfélagið is a notable exception in that it was derived more or less directly from remnants in rural folklore. Still, some practitioners even of syncretized directions tend to object to the term "Neopaganism" for their religion as they consider what they are doing not to be a new thing. It must be said, also, that since the 1990s, the number of reconstructionist movements that reject romantic or occult influences has increased, even if those Neopagans who make a conscious effort to separate pre-Christian from romantic influences are still a minority.

Modern nature religion
Many current Pagans in industrial societies base their beliefs and practices on a connection to Nature, and a divinity within all living things, but this may not hold true for all forms of Paganism, past or present. Some believe that there are many deities, while some believe that the combined subconscious spirit of all living things forms the universal deity. Paganism predates modern monotheism, although its origins are lost in prehistory. Ancient paganism, which tended in many cases to be a deification of the local deity, as Athena in Athens, saw each local emanation as an aspect of an Olympian deity during the Classical period and then after Alexander to syncretize the deity with the political process, with "state divinities" increasingly assigned to various localities, as Roma personified Rome. Many ancient regimes would claim to be the representative on earth of these gods, and would depend on more or less elaborate bureaucracies of state-supported priests and scribes to lend public support to their claims. This is something paganism shares with more 'mainstream' revealed religions, as can be seen in the history of the Catholic church, the Church of England and the ancient and current trends in Islam.

In one well-established sense, paganism is the belief in any non-monotheistic religion, which would mean that the Pythagoreans of ancient Greece would not be considered pagan in that sense, since they were monotheist, but not in the Abrahamic tradition. In an extreme sense, and like the pejorative sense below, any belief, ritual or pastime not sanctioned by a religion accepted as orthodox by those doing the describing, such as Burning Man, Halloween, or even Christmas, can be described as pagan by the person or people who object to them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2007, 10:59:12 pm »

Artemis

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I think we have to look at this topic objectively, without bias, and discuss the facts first and foremost. Since this also relates to my own research, I'd like to suggest what I believe to be the main points here:

1. Pagan worship came first, that's not even up for debate, it did.

2. There has been some evidence that stories in both the new and old testaments of the Bible came from regional stories.

3. Did Jesus actually exist? I like to think so, but I have to admit that the evidence for him, let alone doing all that was said he did, is a little shaky.

4. Did Mithra later copy anything off of Christianity? How much did Christianity take from Mithra? Might be a good idea to look at both those things. In any event, I don't think it would be a good idea to accept a single source for most of these things.
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2007, 10:59:34 pm »

Artemis

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet in spite of its rejection by scholars, the Idyllic Goddess
theory has found enormous support among certain segments of the
general public, because it appeals to their preconceived beliefs.
Thus Gimbutas' Goddess theories should be placed alongside those
of Velikovsky and Von Daniken: belief-systems which, while
enjoying a cult-like popularity among certain groups of laymen,
are rejected virtually _in toto_ by scholars who have worked in
the field. They are classic examples of pseudo-science.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoever wrote some of these articles hasn't done their research. Goddess worship predates all other religions. Scholars haven't rejected it, they were the ones to come up with it in the first place.

The Venus of Willendorf figures are all over Europe starting 30,000 bc. Whether we call them fertility figures or goddess icons, it's pretty obvious that they are meant to honor the idea of a woman's fertility, hence, the goddess. As for the reasons skeptics give to why they're around and who carved them, that is pure conjecture, you have to go with the most obvious reason: to celebrate a woman's fertility. Whether you can get a single goddess out of that, well, that's a whole other story, but it is an icon of a woman, and versions of it are found everywhere. Catal Hoyuk has the goddess, Crete, with some of the first writing, was also a civilization that worshipped a goddess as a central theme. Crete was a very peaceful civilization. When people imagine an "idyllic civilization," it's because they're thinking of the civilization on Crete, whcih there are writings of.
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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2007, 10:59:54 pm »

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Artemis,

The Bock saga tells of the "Eight Powers".... www.bocksaga.de

This was from the original people, long before Ice-time. This was long before any concept of worship of god/goddess.

In Crete was the "goddess" holding two serpents, the symbol of the All-father, perhaps, as has been said, indicating the origin of two All-fathers, Jupiter and Zeus, West and East.

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All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2007, 11:00:18 pm »

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Hi Rockessence, I'd like to hear more about the "Eight Powers." How far does the Bock Saga stretch back? The Venus figures are dated back to 30,000 bc. The Snake Goddess of Minoan culture dates back to 1600 bcc, if I remember correctly.
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2007, 11:00:47 pm »

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Not to make light of anyone's beliefs (I realize this whole topic is a sensitive issue), much has been made of the Roman persecution of Christians. But outside the Bible, how much of that is verifiable?


quote:
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Roman persecutions in Non-Biblical Sources
Aside from the occasional lynching, the first organized, state-supported persecution of Christians is the one initiated by Nero in 64 AD, in a search for scapegoats after the Great Fire of Rome. Though accepted as fact by many, the "persecution" of Nero is considered by some to be an anachronism. The only reference we have comes from the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus in his annals. He refers to the victims of persecution as "Christians" though this was not known to be a common label for the faith at the time. Nevertheless, the Acts of the Apostles, written by an assistant to Paul, notes the use of the term in Syria before 50 a.d. (Acts 11:26). 1 Peter 4:16 also uses the term in a letter to Asia Minor.

The text in question is:

Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator, Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race.-- Book 15, Chapter 44

Some comminators believe that it is unlikely that such hatred of an obscure sect could have developed so rapidly, especially since this obscure sect did not have a distinctive name for itself and was considered by outsiders to be part of a much larger sect, Judaism. Although Church Father's emphatically try to make the case for widespread persecution of Christians at their present time and in the past, no Christian (or non-Christian) author quotes the reference to the "Neronian persecution" until the 5th century, when it is quoted by the apologist Sulpicius Severus in a work replete with anachronisms and fanciful miracles. Indeed, some "Christians", if one could call the sect in its early stages of development that, may indeed have been persecuted for their religious ideals, though it would have been mere venting of Roman anti-Semitism at the obscure "Jewish" sect after the costly and foolhardy revolts in Judea, and not particular hatred of these people for worshipping "Christus."

By the mid 2nd century, mobs could be found willing to throw stones at Christians, and they might be mobilized by rival sects. Lucian tells of an elaborate and successful hoax perpretrated by a "prophet" of Asclepius, using a tame snake, in Pontus and Paphlygonia. When rumor seemed about to expose his fraud, the witty essayist reports in his scathing essay Alexander the false prophet,

he issued a promulgation designed to scare them, saying that Pontus was full of atheists and Christians who had the hardihood to utter the vilest abuse of him; these he bade them drive away with stones if they wanted to have the god gracious.
Further state persecutions were desultory until the persecution under Diocletian and more so Galerius that began in 303 AD. The persecution under Decius from the winter of 250 to the following spring of 251 martyred Pope Fabian, Bishop of Rome, involved Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, in controversy, and figures large in the founding myths of the seven bishops sent to Christianize Gaul, but finds no confirmation outside the vita of Cyprian composed by Pontius the deacon and writings in the hagiographic tradition. Gregory of Tours glosses the persecutions in his "History of the Franks" written in the decade before 594:

"Under the emperor Decius many persecutions arose against the name of Christ, and there was such a slaughter of believers that they could not be numbered. Babillas, bishop of Antioch, with his three little sons, Urban, Prilidan and Epolon, and Xystus, bishop of Rome, Laurentius, an archdeacon, and Hyppolitus, were made perfect by martyrdom because they confessed the name of the Lord. Valentinian and Novatian were then the chief heretics and were active against our faith, the enemy urging them on. At this time seven men were ordained as bishops and sent into the Gauls to preach, as the history of the martyrdom of the holy martyr Saturninus relates. For it says: " In the consulship of Decius and Gratus, as faithful memory recalls, the city of Toulouse received the holy Saturninus as its first and greatest bishop." These bishops were sent: bishop Catianus to Tours; bishop Trophimus to Arles; bishop Paul to Narbonne; bishop Saturninus to Toulouse; bishop Dionisius to Paris; bishop Stremonius to Clermont, bishop Martial to Limoges." (Book i.30-31)
Christian sources aver that a decree was issued requiring public sacrifice, a formality equivalent to a testimonial of allegiance to the Emperor and the established order. Decius authorized roving commissions visiting the cities and villages to supervise the execution of the sacrifices and to deliver written certificates to all citizens who performed them. Christians were often given opportunities to avoid further punishment by publicly offering sacrifices or burning incense to Roman gods, and were accused by the Romans of impiety when they refused. Refusal was punished by arrest, imprisonment, torture, and executions. Christians fled to safe havens in the countryside and some purchased their certificates, called libelli. Several councils held at Carthage debated the extent to which the community should accept these lapsed Christians.

It should be noted that today massive numbers of martyrs claimed by the early Church during these persecutions are not generally accepted by scholars. Gibbon, in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, estimates that "the whole might consequently amount to about fifteen hundred ... an annual consumption of 150 martyrs." The Western provinces were little affected, and even in the East where Christianity was recognized as a growing threat, the persecutions were light and sporadic. Claims of martyrdom were exaggerated by the early Church Fathers in order to gain converts.

The career and writings of Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, throw light on the aftermath of the Decian persecutions in the Carthaginian Christian community. (Fuller details are at the entry Cyprian.)

Some early Christians sought out and welcomed their persecutions:

Roman authorities tried hard to avoid Christians because they "goaded, chided, belittled and insulted the crowds until they demanded their death.";193; One man shouted to the Roman officials: "I want to die! I am a Christian," leading the officials to respond: "If they wanted to kill themselves, there was plenty of cliffs they could jump off.";194; But the Christians, following Tertullian's dicta that "martyrdom is required by God," forced their own martyrdom so they could die in an ecstatic trance: "Although their tortures were gruesome, the martyrs did not suffer, enjoying their analgesic state."195 [4]

The conditions under which martyrdom was an acceptable fate or under which it was suicidally embraced occupied writers of the early Christian Church. Broadly speaking, martyrs were considered uniquely exemplary of the Christian faith, and few early saints were not also martyrs. However, suicide is murder, and is associated with treason to the faith - the very opposite of martyrdom - the way of Judas the traitor, not of Jesus the savior. This confusion of early Christians over the values of martyrdom led to some breakaways from the Church in Rome, most notably the Donatists. Their was one sect, the Circumcellions, AKA the "agonostici", Latin for "fighter", and root of our English word "antagonist", that is of special regard in this matter. The Circumcellions had come to regard martyrdom as the true Christian virtue (as Church Father Tertullian said, a martyr’s death day was actually his birthday), and thus came to disregard chastity, sobriety, humbleness, charity, and most of the other good things we today associate with Christianity. Instead, they focused on bringing about their martyrdom-- by any means possible. Since Jesus had told Peter to put down his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane, the Circumcellions piously avoided bladed weapons and instead opted for the use of blunt clubs, which they called "Isrealites." Using their "Israelites", the Circumcellions would attack random travelers on the road, while shouting "Praise the Lord!" in Latin. The object of these random beatings was the death of the intrepid martyr, who hoped that clobbering someone over the head with an "Israelite" would provoke said person to send the happy Circumcellion straight to Heaven. Since the Circumcellions did not bother themselves with chastity or poverty, they often cavorted with the opposite (or same!) sex and would kill and rob those unfortunate travelers who did not assist their "martyrdom" with a sufficiently potent counter-attack. When the "Israelite" method failed, the determined Circumcellion would obtain his martyrdom through a not-so-quick dip in the pool, or a one way ticket off the nearest cliffside. The 2nd century Martyrdom of Polycarp, records the story of Quintus, a Christian who handed himself over to the Roman authorities, but turned coward and sacrificed to the Roman gods when he saw the wild beasts in the colosseum: "For this reason therefore, brothers, we do not praise those who hand themselves over, since the gospel does not so teach." John the Evangelist never accused Jesus of suicide or self-destruction, but rather says that Jesus chose not to resist arrest and crucifixion.

Early persecutions outside the Roman Empire
In 337, a spate in the ongoing hostilities between Sassanid Persia and the Roman Empire led to anti-Christian persecutions by the Persians of Christians who were perceived as potentially treacherous friends to a Christianized Rome under Constantine. Over the next few decades, thousands of Christians died. In the 3rd and 4th centuries, Christian missionaries, most successfully Ulfilas converted the Goths to Arian Christianity, which the Goths saw as an attack on their religion and culture. The Visigoth King Athanaric began persecuting Christians, many of whom were killed. In the 5th and 6th century, Arianism became prevalent among the Goths; during their forays into Italy, Gaul (France) and Spain they destroyed many churches and killed a number of Christian clergy.

In 429 the Vandals (who were Arians) conquered Roman Africa. Catholics were discriminated against; Catholic Church property was confiscated. Thousands of Catholics were banished from Vandal held territory.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia notes that "Ancient, medieval and early modern hagiographers were inclined to exaggerate the number of martyrs. Since the title of martyr is the highest title to which a Christian can aspire, this tendency is natural". Estimates of Christians killed for religious reasons before the year 313 vary greatly, depending on the scholar quoted, from a high of almost 100,000 to a low of 10,000.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2007, 11:01:07 pm »

George Erikson
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Heather, Valerie, Artemis, et al

Almost 30 years ago I published a book called THE DIVINE MYSTERY (Ross-Erikson 1976). Written by Allen Upward in 1910 it concerns the treatment of the "genius" in pagan or pre-Christian cultures. Upward's studies which included ancient Greek and Hebrew sources, also focused on sacrifice in Mesoamerican and African cultures before they had encountered Christianity. Among many other insights Upward concluded... "Christolatry, the worship of man consecrated as king or genius of the people, with a view to his subsequently being killed and eaten, may be pronounced one of the oldest and most widespread of religions... traces of it still exist in the peasantry showing that it prevailed over all Europe in primitive times."
And ... "The word 'Sacrifice' is here restricted to its strict etymological sense of 'making sacred'." (pp.96-98) Upward found repeated instances in pre-Christian cultures of the "genius" becoming "King" and then becoming the "Saviour" by scarificing himself, before becoming the "Redeemer".

The book was kept in manuscript form for decades by the poet Ezra Pound, and given to my brother Buzz and me by our friend the late poet Peter Whigham. Despite our efforts the book was not received well by the public (probably not understood by very many), and it is probably now difficult to find. (I have one copy that I refer to, possibly a few others in some boxes in the garage). However, I think that many of you find much to interest you within its pages.

www.AtlantisInAmerica.com
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2007, 11:01:27 pm »

rockessence

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   posted 11-13-2005 10:50 AM                       
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Hi Arty,

The Bock saga story begins: www.bocksaga.com

"The origins of humans, their languages, natural sexual/procreative systems and practices, accessible powers, heretofore secret knowledge, understanding, wisdom and culture are now rolling out from the Bock Family for the first time into the general public via ALPHERNAS BETEN and BOCK SAGA, following intentions formulated and decisions made 10,019 years ago (as of the year 2003).

The out-rolling of this, the human saga (sa=give; ga=receive) begins with declaring and offering the root and single common origin of human communication, i.e. The Ring, the alphabet, the Sound System of ROT (say approximately “root”): ALPHERNAS BETEN.

A main line has been developed and, over time its details expanded, beginning many millions of years before ICE TIME, establishing the lineage from the first BOCK, the first human being, unto the last BOCK, IOR BOCK, this line or continuum of procreation having been central to and responsible for the undertaking and process of populating planet earth by and with humans. This population process began at the old north pole, expanding over millions of years and carefully recording it’s history for future humans to enjoy and appreciate until it was interrupted 50,010,019 years ago (as of July 24, 2003). At that time Earth’s axis of rotation declinated, and the original and long standing breeding and information system suddenly and catastrophically came to an end as ICE TIME abruptly befell this formerly entirely tropical planet."

Check it out!

[ 11-13-2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: rockessence ]

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All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2007, 11:02:32 pm »

rockessence

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   posted 11-13-2005 11:01 AM                       
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saga (sa=give; ga=receive)

George,

As you can see, as mentioned in my post above, in ROT (root) language SA : give. I will search for more for the word Sa-Cri-f-ice.

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All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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Posts: 3128 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004   
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2007, 11:02:55 pm »

Heather Delaria

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   posted 11-13-2005 12:50 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Allison:
Heather, I admit I had to laugh when I saw the heading "How to Share the Gospel with Pagans". The "gospel", IMO, should not be shared with anyone at all unless they ask for it to be. I think there is way more than adequate evidence to prove that xtianity is modeled almost verbatim on Paganism and THAT is precisely why the xtians felt so compelled to eradicate Paganism and force Pagans to convert. You see, we could serve no purpose but to foil their grand plan for control through fear. They wanted to stop us from using our gifts, but they have not been very successful, I'd say because what do you think is the fastest growing religion in this country right now? Hint - it's not xtianity. 

There are a lot of people out there who are unbalanced and unstable who call themselves "Pagans", but they are free to CALL themselves whatever they wish but at the end of the day they don't walk the talk. I have met many of them and for the most part they are well intended, but victims of a lack of guidance and I am glad to teach and help any who ASK. Then there's the ones who are lacking a part of their soul and live only to siphon energy from others (I am sure that you have encountered this sort on your journey down this path - you know the feeling of being drained). For them I offer nothing because they are the ones most certain to use it for negative ends. Usually that sort are fortunately unable to comprehend what this about anyway and should have just stayed xtian.
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Hi Allison,

The article probably should have been entitled: "How to Share the Gospel with Pagans (but you really shouldn't bother because we already know all about it and that's why we're Pagans in the first place.").

Just kidding to the Christians out there who might not have a sense of humor - I used to be Christian myself.

Allison, I totally agree with you the Christianity is modelled almost entirely off of paganism. In fact, I'm not really certain if anything new came on it at all. If I remember correctly, Zorastism was the first religion to be monotheistic and to Christianity probably even borrowed it's concepts of good and evil from it as well.

As I see it, the one thing that Christianity did do ( as well as Judasism and the Muslim religions as well) is to make a point to diminish the status of women. I don't see being a pagan as chance to lord it over other people, but to be more at peace with myself and make other people feel peace as well. If other women feel a greater sense of self worth by finding out that earlier religions didn't treat us as second class citizens, well, so much the better.

I also agree that paganism (like Christianity) has it's share of weird people in it as well, but the majority of the people I have met in it have been nice and just want to be more in touch with the earth. They're a whole lot more understanding and open-minded than people from other religions.

Bright Blessings!

Heather

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-the Wiccan Rede

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