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Ancient South America & It's Connection to Atlantis (Original)

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Author Topic: Ancient South America & It's Connection to Atlantis (Original)  (Read 1053 times)
Morrison
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« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2007, 09:45:16 pm »

nekozuki

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   posted 02-16-2006 09:39 PM                       
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Actually no one has ever disproven that Atlantis was never in America.

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Morrison
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« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2007, 09:45:38 pm »

Carolyn Silver

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   posted 02-16-2006 09:55 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Herr_Saltzman:
America is far too ways away from the Straits of Gibraltar to be Atlantis. There is a whole slew of evidence that it was not Atlantis.

Chichen Itza was built 600 years after Plato wrote his account.
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Funny how we keep hearing how there is a whole slew of evidence saying one thing or another but never seem to see it! Gee, that's okay, I guess we can just take your word for it. Your word is good enough for me...not!
 
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« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2007, 09:46:00 pm »

Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 02-16-2006 10:16 PM                   
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No one has proven Atlantis was in America either. There are several reasons:

1. IF Atlantis was near America and sunk, this would not make the Atlantic unnavigable. Moreover, no one in Plato's time could reach the Americas to notice that there was a shoal of mud.

2. IF Atlantis was in America, it would not make sense to say it was before the Pillars of Herakles.

3. IF Atlantis was in America, how could the Atlanteans attack Greece? Wouldn't evidence of their civilization first be in North America and South America, and West Europe/Africa? Why attack the Mediterranean? There is nothing for them in the Mediterranean.

4. It'd be pretty damn difficult to control W. Europe and Libya from the other side of the sea, especially when voyages were limited.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Morrison
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« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2007, 09:46:27 pm »

Morrison

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quote:
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1. IF Atlantis was near America and sunk, this would not make the Atlantic unnavigable. Moreover, no one in Plato's time could reach the Americas to notice that there was a shoal of mud.
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And yet, the fact that the cocoa plant found with Egyptian mummies would prove that there was contact between the two cultures, Herr Saltzman. Unless, of course, the earlier version of Morocco also involved in the drug trade as well.


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2. IF Atlantis was in America, it would not make sense to say it was before the Pillars of Herakles.
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Makes sense to me, you seem to be the only one here with a problem with it, or the Azores, for that matter.


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3. IF Atlantis was in America, how could the Atlanteans attack Greece? Wouldn't evidence of their civilization first be in North America and South America, and West Europe/Africa? Why attack the Mediterranean? There is nothing for them in the Mediterranean.
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On the other hand, if the war didn't actually happen (and most theories are unsure that it did), why does anyone even need to prove it?


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4. It'd be pretty damn difficult to control W. Europe and Libya from the other side of the sea, especially when voyages were limited.
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Not really, and I wouldn't be surprised if an ancient South American culture navigated all over the world, with ports everywhere.

Where would an ancient sea-faring race have a better chance of flourishing? Desert or tropical jungle? Offhand, I would say "jungle."
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« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2007, 09:46:51 pm »

Tom Hebert1
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  posted 02-17-2006 05:10 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Actually no one has ever disproven that Atlantis was never in America.
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This is true. The fact is that no one can prove that Atlantis was located anywhere or that it even existed at all.

Based on the evidence I've see, Atlantis has just as much right to be in South America as it does in Morocco.
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« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2007, 09:47:20 pm »

nekozuki

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   posted 02-17-2006 07:46 AM                       
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Quote
Originally posted by Herr_Saltzman:
[QB] No one has proven Atlantis was in America either. There are several reasons:

1. IF Atlantis was near America and sunk, this would not make the Atlantic unnavigable. Moreover, no one in Plato's time could reach the Americas to notice that there was a shoal of mud.

And yet there are plants from South America in pharoahs tombs, coincidence?

[ 02-17-2006, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: nekozuki ]

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With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Morrison
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« Reply #111 on: December 21, 2007, 09:47:52 pm »

Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 02-17-2006 04:28 PM                   
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quote:
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 And yet, the fact that the cocoa plant found with Egyptian mummies would prove that there was contact between the two cultures, Herr Saltzman. Unless, of course, the earlier version of Morocco also involved in the drug trade as well.
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http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=45

No mystery there.


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 Makes sense to me, you seem to be the only one here with a problem with it, or the Azores, for that matter.
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How does it make sense? "Before" means close to. South America is not close to the Pillars.


quote:
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 On the other hand, if the war didn't actually happen (and most theories are unsure that it did), why does anyone even need to prove it?
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The point is that it was a civilization that could influence the Mediterranean -one that was close to it. Not in South America.


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 Not really, and I wouldn't be surprised if an ancient South American culture navigated all over the world, with ports everywhere.
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Yes, really. Imagine the logistics of that! Imagine the logistics of controlling all those lands, with such a primitive civilization. And how could they leave their account to the ancient Egyptians, who did not exist at the time?

And you did not answer this:

How is Bolivia five miles from the Atlantic? If the Ancient Bolivians were so precise about everything else in their civilization, why be off about this?

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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« Reply #112 on: December 21, 2007, 09:48:16 pm »

George Erikson
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   posted 02-17-2006 06:14 PM                       
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Herr s.

Sir Desmon Lee translates the crucial passage as "Atlantis stands opposite to the Pillars of Heracles". America is the opposite continent.

www.AtlantisInAmerica.com
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« Reply #113 on: December 21, 2007, 09:48:47 pm »

George Erikson
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In Chichen Itza's so-called Temple of the Warriors there are 19 Atlanteans (Atlas-like figures) each with a distinct face and each, possibly, representing a different people. The ancient Maya encountered many peoples.

www.AtlantisInAmerica.com
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« Reply #114 on: December 21, 2007, 09:49:29 pm »

Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 02-17-2006 06:20 PM                   
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Desmond Lee translated it wrong.

The original Greek text says PRO TOU STOMATOS. This can only be translated as "before", which means "at the foot of" or "near".

As for you claiming that there are 19 Atlanteans in the Temple of the Warriors, that is a huge assertion to make. I, personally, think that in the Las Vegas Wax Museum, there are 37 Atlantean figures.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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« Reply #115 on: December 21, 2007, 09:50:07 pm »

Morrison

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   posted 02-17-2006 08:34 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Herr_Saltzman:
Desmond Lee translated it wrong.

The original Greek text says PRO TOU STOMATOS. This can only be translated as "before", which means "at the foot of" or "near".

As for you claiming that there are 19 Atlanteans in the Temple of the Warriors, that is a huge assertion to make. I, personally, think that in the Las Vegas Wax Museum, there are 37 Atlantean figures.
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You don't have the original Greek texts, Herr Saltzman, in fact, no one does.

The two dialogues were written at a time of about 350 bc, then were lost for 1200 years, until they were rediscovered at about 900 ad. The kicker is the Plato dialogues that were rediscovered (to my knowledge anyway) were rediscovered in Latin and Arabic, not Greek. I believe they were translated back to Greek later, but we all know how translations tend to go.

Plato's original works don't even exist anymore. The oldest copy in existence is Timaeus by Calcidius, but even then, it's in Latin, not Greek, and it's still something like 700 years after Plato wrote it.

That's why when you keep saying, "well, the text says this," or "the text says that," I have to laugh. Clearly, someone screwed up somewhere on the measurements of the plain because there is no such level plain like that anywhere in the world. In fact, everyone who reads the dialogues thinks someone screwed up somewhere, and yet, you want Timaeus to be taken literally in terms of the location apparently because you believe it favors you.

[ 02-17-2006, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Morrison ]
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Morrison
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« Reply #116 on: December 21, 2007, 09:50:36 pm »

Morrison

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   posted 02-17-2006 08:38 PM                       
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I, personally, think that in the Las Vegas Wax Museum, there are 37 Atlantean figures.
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I saw an Atlantis/Vegas presentation on TV myself care to try naming the figures?
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« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2007, 09:52:10 pm »

Herr_Saltzman

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  posted 02-17-2006 08:52 PM                   
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So, you admit that South America is incompatable with Plato's account. And you now are saying instead of "South America is the only place that matches Plato's account", you are saying "Plato's account is messed up."

Let's see what parts of Plato's account Bolivia doesn't match.

1. Not close to Gibraltar.
2. Not in the Atlantic Ocean, but near to the Pacific.
3. Not 50 stadia from the coast.
4. Not an Atlantic Empire.
5. The sinking of the island would not make Atlantic unnavigable.
6. No access to other islands by which to pass to the whole of the opposite continent.
7. Not on the open sea.
8. No elephants.
9. Sinking of island would not be noticed by mariners sailing the Atlantic.

Clearly, the only detail South America has going for it is the plain and the size. But, using your logic, Plato's account was mistranslated, so how do you know that those two things were in the original account?

So, of the main clues, South America only fits TWO. TWO. And with all the errors in the text, it could be that those are errors, and so South America fits none.

Naturally, Plato screwed up in the text -he embellished it. Which is why it is so important to study it and find which parts are added on by Plato and which are not -and also to study other ancient texts that mention Atlantis, like Diodorus and Herodotus.

As for the Las Vegas figures, my point is that you can take anything and say it represents Atlanteans. George provides no evidence.

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Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001530;p=10

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Morrison
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« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2007, 09:53:36 pm »

Morrison

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   posted 02-17-2006 09:37 PM                       
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quote:
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quote:
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And yet, the fact that the cocoa plant found with Egyptian mummies would prove that there was contact between the two cultures, Herr Saltzman. Unless, of course, the earlier version of Morocco also involved in the drug trade as well.
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http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=45

No mystery there.
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Apparently there is if you read the article, which reaches no convincing alternatives, my favorite being:


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Academic historians may accept the possibility that a single Roman ship may have become lost in storms and drifted across the Atlantic.
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quote:
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Makes sense to me, you seem to be the only one here with a problem with it, or the Azores, for that matter.
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How does it make sense? "Before" means close to. South America is not close to the Pillars.
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First, see my earlier response, two posts above.
If that does not suffice, I'll say it makes perfect sense to me, and only you seem to have a problem with it.



quote:
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quote:
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On the other hand, if the war didn't actually happen (and most theories are unsure that it did), why does anyone even need to prove it?
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The point is that it was a civilization that could influence the Mediterranean -one that was close to it. Not in South America.
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But it did influence it, most likely, they were trading partners.

Where else could the Egyptian mummies have gotten that cocoa from..? As I said, Bolivia is the **** capital of the world.


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quote:
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Not really, and I wouldn't be surprised if an ancient South American culture navigated all over the world, with ports everywhere.
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Yes, really. Imagine the logistics of that! Imagine the logistics of controlling all those lands, with such a primitive civilization. And how could they leave their account to the ancient Egyptians, who did not exist at the time?
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Unlike George, I'm not actually certain what time period this ancient civlization existed yet. George sets it when Plato sets Atlantis, Jim Allen sets it more recently. I'm also not certain what the nature was of their control. I do know that there is rock art all around the world with similar symbols on it that could conceivably be the work of the same people.

A good book for you to read would be "Maps of the Ancient Sea-Kings" by Charles Hapgood. He makes a convincing case for such a civilization.


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And you did not answer this:

How is Bolivia five miles from the Atlantic? If the Ancient Bolivians were so precise about everything else in their civilization, why be off about this?
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Rubbish, I answered it in the other forum. Neither Plato, Solon or the Egyptians had ever been to South America themselves, so it is pure conjecture on their part it's distance to the Atlantic.
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« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2007, 09:54:06 pm »

Morrison

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   posted 02-17-2006 10:09 PM                       
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quote:
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So, you admit that South America is incompatable with Plato's account.
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I never said that, I said that you can't even be certain you're reading Plato's original account.


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 And you now are saying instead of "South America is the only place that matches Plato's account", you are saying "Plato's account is messed up."
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Again, I never said that either. I said that geographically, the place he is a describing is South America, and it is.

Simply because Morocco comes out the poorer in terms of the geography, don't blame me. I'm not the one that suggested you believe in it.


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Let's see what parts of Plato's account Bolivia doesn't match.

1. Not close to Gibraltar.
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Again, only you say it had to be.


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2. Not in the Atlantic Ocean, but near to the Pacific.
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South America is very much in the Atlantic, and, unlike Morocco, has the advantage of being a continent, not a peninsula.


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3. Not 50 stadia from the coast.
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Didn't have to be, everyone says the measurements are off.


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4. Not an Atlantic Empire.
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Until we verify just when it existed, we don't know the extents of it's empire.


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5. The sinking of the island would not make Atlantic unnavigable.
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Again, the Sargasso Sea has been considered one of the most unnavigable parts of the ocean for ages.


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6. No access to other islands by which to pass to the whole of the opposite continent.
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Islands in the Pacific, opposing continent, Asia.


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7. Not on the open sea.
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Now you're being redundant.


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8. No elephants.
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If there were no elephants, why do the museums of Bolivia have elephant bones among them?


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9. Sinking of island would not be noticed by mariners sailing the Atlantic.
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It would be if they had travelled to the Sargasso Sea, as, we imagine, they did.


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Clearly, the only detail South America has going for it is the plain and the size.
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As well as it's physical descriptions, abundant natural resources, mythology and history.


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But, using your logic, Plato's account was mistranslated, so how do you know that those two things were in the original account?
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How do you know they weren't?
The core of Plato's Atlantis story was that it was a great civilization, larger than Libya and Asia combined. South America enjoys that status and, alone among the Atlantis theories, plays the least amount of those silly, "Plato mistranslation" games.

Certainly, we don't have the detriment of suggesting Plato meant "peninsula," when he wrote "island," as we have with both the Morocco/Spain nonsense.


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So, of the main clues, South America only fits TWO. TWO. And with all the errors in the text, it could be that those are errors, and so South America fits none.
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South America fits all the criteria that Plato describes, and it's a pity you are so blind to it's assets that you can't see that.
With South America, we also have the benefit of literally thousands upon thousands of ancient ruins which clearly formed the basis for what Plato describes.

Again, the pickings in Morocco, and even Spain for that matter, are a bit meager by comparison.

In South America, it's almost an embarrassment of riches in terms of the evidence of ancient civilization.

Morocco, on the other hand, admittedly with a handful itself, is as dry as a desert by comparison.


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Naturally, Plato screwed up in the text -he embellished it. Which is why it is so important to study it and find which parts are added on by Plato and which are not -and also to study other ancient texts that mention Atlantis, like Diodorus and Herodotus.
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We can admit that Plato added some "embellishments," but those would be along the lines of triremes and things like that. Certainly, Atlantis' overall greatness could not have been overestimated, else, why even bother talking about it?


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As for the Las Vegas figures, my point is that you can take anything and say it represents Atlanteans. George provides no evidence.
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Nonetheless, in terms of trivia, I would appreciate an answer to my orginal question, though, I imagine I can find it myself.

[ 02-17-2006, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: Morrison ]
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