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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7579 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #510 on: December 30, 2007, 07:44:51 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Brig:

Whatever caused the submergence of Atlantis, whether it was somewhere off the coasts of America, the mid-Atlantic or just before (Spartel or the like) the Pillars of Hercules; was definitely a major calamity. Such distruction could have caused the ocean in the vicinity of the Straits to swell with mud and be no longer safe for shipping for a period of time. The waters before the Pillars are, relatively speaking rather shallow. If the Greeks couldn't get through the Straits of Gibraltor they would naturally assume the ocean no longer navigable.
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All that is possible. Reason why I have studied the climate of that time, product of defrostings of the ice sheets in the north in the Earth, that J. Imbrie and K imbrie call "climatic revolution" (Ice Ages; Solving the Mystery) was generated great catastrophes. I have collected many data of different places from the Earth. Nevertheless, in North America, the evidences of human presence are very few. Only it was a skeleton in La Brea (Los Angeles) and some evidence of stone devices in Alaska (Frank C. Hibben).

Nevertheless, there are no evidences or study indicates that what you indicate specifically has happened. Either there are evidences that there were important villages or towns, with million human beings. Either there are evidences of civilized centres. There is not evidence either how this event hypothetical could be known more than 10 thousand kilometres of distance, 11,500 years ago.

In order to discover the truth, we must work hypotheses that can be demonstrated with concrete data.
 
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« Reply #511 on: December 30, 2007, 07:45:47 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-19-2006 08:04 PM                       
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quote:
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Yes, Gibraltar is a narrow entrance to space, to 80 kilometers of height. This idea is as absurd as to say that the Greeks, a marine people, did not have a word for seeweed and they confused it with mud. And sure, the Mediterranean Sea is like a great lake.

Please, present intelligent and documented arguments.
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Intelligent and documented arguments, you mean like yours: the Greeks and Egyptiains didn't know the difference between the Red Sea and the Atlantic even though we have documented evidence they did.

How about that Plato confused Atlantis with Israel, a land that both the Greeks and Egyptians traded with?

How about that Israel even bears any geographic resemblance to Atlantis in the first place?

How about ignoring the fact that all the ancient sources agree that the Pillars of Hercules were at the Straits of Gibraltar in order to place them in an area the Greeks sailed in all the time?

Also, if the Greeks had a name for seeweed, what was it?

Maybe next time, Jamie, you can present some more intelligent arguments and back them up with documents. 
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« Reply #512 on: December 30, 2007, 07:46:51 am »

Desiree

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quote:
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I have collected many data of different places from the Earth. Nevertheless, in North America, the evidences of human presence are very few. Only it was a skeleton in La Brea (Los Angeles) and some evidence of stone devices in Alaska (Frank C. Hibben).

Nevertheless, there are no evidences or study indicates that what you indicate specifically has happened. Either there are evidences that there were important villages or towns, with million human beings. Either there are evidences of civilized centres. There is not evidence either how this event hypothetical could be known more than 10 thousand kilometres of distance, 11,500 years ago.
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In the first place, Jamie, we never see any scientific evidence from you, only a lot of talk that you have some. The fact that you have yet to produce any to support any of what you say, in my opinion, at least, speaks volumes.

In the second place, regarding a cataclysm like Brig speaks of, of course, it would be know to people, irregardless of where Atlantis was located if these people were a sea-faring people like most people believe.

You know, all this talk of a cataclysm, it occurs to me that that is another thing your theory is missing: Israel never had an Atlantis like catastrophe strike it. So while you are criticizing other people's theories, your certainly could use a great deal of cleaning up, too. In fact, probably more than some of the others.

 
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« Reply #513 on: December 30, 2007, 07:47:41 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-19-2006 08:17 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Isn't there evidence of an asteroid crater off of the Carolinas?
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quote:
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Isn't there evidence of an asteroid crater off of the Carolinas?
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Yep, according to Greg Little, the Carolina Bays dates to about the same time as Plato places the destruction of Atlantis, Neko!
 
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« Reply #514 on: December 30, 2007, 07:48:34 am »

nekozuki

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Well, there you go the destruction of civilization would be caused by an asteroid and a massive extinction of animals would also take place.

 
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« Reply #515 on: December 30, 2007, 07:49:39 am »

Desiree

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So true!

And did any kind of mass extinction ever happen in Israel? None that I'm aware of.
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« Reply #516 on: December 30, 2007, 07:50:41 am »

nekozuki

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   posted 04-19-2006 09:08 PM                       
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I remember in history it said between 9,000 and 7,000 BC food was scarce............hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

 
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« Reply #517 on: December 30, 2007, 07:51:41 am »

Desiree

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Neko, I used to be really firm on that 10,000 to 9,000 bc date cause that was when the Ice Age ended! Now I'm not so sure, maybe it was earlier, maybe later. Point is, how would anyone know the exact date something happened if it was so long ago?


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« Reply #518 on: December 30, 2007, 07:52:30 am »

nekozuki

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   posted 04-19-2006 09:19 PM                       
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Well, if there weren't any tools to write anything down then everything was told orally and some things changed a bit.

 
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« Reply #519 on: December 30, 2007, 07:53:35 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-19-2006 09:29 PM                       
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I'm thinking that language was invented earlier, I think the marks we see in the Canaries are a language that hasn't been deciphred yet! I'm also thinking Egypt was a lot older than Egyptologists say it is.

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« Reply #520 on: December 30, 2007, 07:54:31 am »

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   posted 04-20-2006 01:42 PM                       
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http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_herc_lab12.htm
What a strange 12th labor of Hercules:
Timeframes:
Medusa - either 1495-76BC or 1343-24BC(Perseus)
Menoites(brother of Atlas)(timeframe of Heracles 5) - 1457-38BC
Eumolpus, Demeter/Ceres - 1362-43BC
Meleager - 1305-1286BC (?)
Heracles(Alcaeus) - 1305-1286BC
Theseus - 1248-1229BC

http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Keuthonymos.html
Keuthonymos described as Iapetos... Iapetos is generally perceived to be Poseidon. Interesting identification.


Here is a quote seperating Typhon from Poseidon from Iapetos:
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanIapetos.html
"[Typhoeus to Zeus declaring his intentions when he seizes the throne of heaven:] ‘I will keep the chains of Iapetos for Poseidon [that is he will free Iapetos from his chains and instead lock Poseidon away in Tartaros]." - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 2.298

 
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« Reply #521 on: December 30, 2007, 07:55:28 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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[
quote:
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 Originally posted by Desiree:
In the first place, Jamie, we never see any scientific evidence from you, only a lot of talk that you have some. The fact that you have yet to produce any to support any of what you say, in my opinion, at least, speaks volumes.
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That is your problem. Based on which I have read about which you have written here, I concluded that you do not know what is scientific methodology and specifically, which are technical methodologies and of investigation in social sciences, specifically history. I do not know if you know to distinguish between a data authorized by an investigation made by a specialist, a hypothesis of a specialist, that sometimes it is valid, but is necessary to prove, and the simple opinion of a non specialistic person, (“lego” in Spanish). I ignore in which category are you. I either if you distinguishes between knowing and believing. For that reason, I conclude that you do not understand what I have been indicating. These are its not simple opinions formulated at random. Are conclusions based on collected data of investigations and work made by scientists and specialists. They are not my "simple and personal opinion". It is a conclusion sanctioned by investigations. And, I mention each specialist in my conclusions.

In order to help you, I go to explains you with an example. You say that the Greeks considered that Gibraltar is narrow. On which data are you based to say such thing? There is some Greek document that specifically talks about the point? It exist some compared data? Or it is the conclusion made by some specialist endorsed by an investigation? Or simply, it is your idea? The same it happens with mud and seaweed. That is not the opinion or conclusion of a specialist. A specialist never would say something thus without having, at least, some concrete data.


quote:
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 In the second place, regarding a cataclysm like Brig speaks of, of course, it would be know to people, irregardless of where Atlantis was located if these people were a sea-faring people like most people believe.
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Therefore, from the point of view of science, all that is a simple speculation... that is to say, signify nothing . It is as if I said that in the Mars planet there are human beings... what it was verified when we discover them...


quote:
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You know, all this talk of a cataclysm, it occurs to me that that is another thing your theory is missing: Israel never had an Atlantis like catastrophe strike it. So while you are criticizing other people's theories, your certainly could use a great deal of cleaning up, too. In fact, probably more than some of the others.
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Although we did not discuss my theory here, I can say that the disaster existed in the 5600 BC... and is very well documented by many scientific works...

Also you criticize to me because I criticize the other theories. What a pity that you bother, but to demonstrate that a hypothesis is correct, this must be put under the critic. From my point of view, all hypothesis of Atlantis must pass three basic tests : Data collection and use of sources : All the data must be sufficiently scientific support. Concordance , is to say that it agrees with the indicated thing in the myth: island, that this one is greater than Libya and Asia, bulls, civilization marine, monotheism (you like or not), date, agriculture, invasion to Egypt, that exists mud, that are a sea that are not navigable, that a port exists, great population, channels, Straits, that exist a small sea and one greater, a temple, mining, etc. I established ninety (90) data that must be verified. No serious investigator can that way walk saying that he discovered the Atlantis because he found something that could be a piece of the puzzle, without a work of investigation solidly endorsed. Presentation of the conclusions : the investigation must be presented of a way so that it fulfills the minimum requirements of a work of scientific research. It must exist a publication of this work, or an article a scientific magazine or a book. The theory of Spain, Ireland, America, Crete, even Bolivia and perhaps others, has data that to analyze and are presented as it corresponds, thus have a value in itself. Nevertheless, they fail in the second test, the concordance. I must say that the theory of the Atlantic not even surpasses the first test of validity of the theory, because not even there are data that to analyze, single speculations.


quote:
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 I'm thinking that language was invented earlier, I think the marks we see in the Canaries are a language that hasn't been deciphred yet! I'm also thinking Egypt was a lot older than Egyptologists say it is.
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Uff… To confuse language with writing seems to me terrible...


quote:
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 Well, there you go the destruction of civilization would be caused by an asteroid and a massive extinction of animals would also take place.
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Uff… No comment
 
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« Reply #522 on: December 30, 2007, 07:56:16 am »

Rich

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   posted 04-20-2006 07:40 PM                       
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Jaime,
Nothing wrong with having controversial opinions. The israel/lebanon area is interesting because of an old history, and a location in between Greece and Egypt. A diversity of opinion is a good thing.

I personally don't like Israel or the timeframe, but that timeframe has been chosen by others before. Usually 5600BC is chosen because of the Black Sea flood. Would Israel know about the Black Sea flooding?

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I agree with some of your controversial points, and not on others... I even have my own controversial thoughts...
"Tyrrhenia"
-- This term is not invented until the trojan war. I think it should read Trinaerian Sea, from the Argonaut story.

"Okeanos"
-- Following a discussion from Herodotus, Okeanos was a rain god who fills all the rivers and seas from above.

"You say that the Greeks considered that Gibraltar is narrow."
-- 90 kilometers is pretty far in my opinion.

"the Atlantic was navigable"
-- Not sure about this translation... anyways... a river makes more sense here to me than the Ocean. Hellesponte seems reasonable as well.

There are at least 2 rivers that in greek mythology change from navigable to un-navigable. One is the strymon river in the Hercules legend. Made un-navigable by Hera. Strabo also mentions the Gallus river in Phrygia, near the Hellesponte.

 
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« Reply #523 on: December 30, 2007, 07:57:03 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Rich:
Jaime,
Nothing wrong with having controversial opinions. The israel/lebanon area is interesting because of an old history, and a location in between Greece and Egypt. A diversity of opinion is a good thing.

I personally don't like Israel or the timeframe, but that timeframe has been chosen by others before. Usually 5600BC is chosen because of the Black Sea flood. Would Israel know about the Black Sea flooding?

*******************************
I agree with some of your controversial points, and not on others... I even have my own controversial thoughts...
"Tyrrhenia"
-- This term is not invented until the trojan war. I think it should read Trinaerian Sea, from the Argonaut story.

"Okeanos"
-- Following a discussion from Herodotus, Okeanos was a rain god who fills all the rivers and seas from above.

"You say that the Greeks considered that Gibraltar is narrow."
-- 90 kilometers is pretty far in my opinion.

"the Atlantic was navigable"
-- Not sure about this translation... anyways... a river makes more sense here to me than the Ocean. Hellesponte seems reasonable as well.

There are at least 2 rivers that in greek mythology change from navigable to un-navigable. One is the strymon river in the Hercules legend. Made un-navigable by Hera. Strabo also mentions the Gallus river in Phrygia, near the Hellesponte.
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As in this page we dealed with the subject the Atlantic... In Atlantis in Israel there will be an answer to your question on the theory of Israel. Soon I will comment on the other subjects raised here.

 
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« Reply #524 on: December 30, 2007, 07:58:43 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Rich:
Jaime
I agree with some of your controversial points, and not on others... I even have my own controversial thoughts...
"Tyrrhenia"
-- This term is not invented until the trojan war. I think it should read Trinaerian Sea, from the Argonaut story.

"Okeanos"
-- Following a discussion from Herodotus, Okeanos was a rain god who fills all the rivers and seas from above.

"You say that the Greeks considered that Gibraltar is narrow."
-- 90 kilometers is pretty far in my opinion.

"the Atlantic was navigable"
-- Not sure about this translation... anyways... a river makes more sense here to me than the Ocean. Hellesponte seems reasonable as well.

There are at least 2 rivers that in greek mythology change from navigable to un-navigable. One is the strymon river in the Hercules legend. Made un-navigable by Hera. Strabo also mentions the Gallus river in Phrygia, near the Hellesponte.
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I share that the Tyrrhenia that speaks the myth is not the place that we know. It is the Punt. Also your appreciation that Gibraltar, under estandares Greek, is not a narrow place.

Now, I do not think that they talks about a river to a somewhat seemed. Sea refers to small, that like a lake, which I stop being navigable, that I flood myself, that was connected with a greater sea through a narrow entrance and that had a single port. That does not correspond under any point of view with the Atlantic that we know. T

he Egyptians are speaking of a sea (pelagos), not of oceáno(okeano). For me it is clear that sea is speaking and that is not the Atlantic that we know.
 
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