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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Bianca
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« Reply #630 on: December 30, 2007, 02:45:53 pm »

Brig

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Desiree: So far it has been quite accurate about locations of towns and cities that many archeologists, at first, doubted ever existed. Biblical Archeology is a well funded, accepted look into the past. 
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« Reply #631 on: December 30, 2007, 02:46:46 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:
Jaime,

I have yet to see a definition of civilization confined to a place that practiced agriculture alone. If you have one by a scholar (with credentials) by all means, show it to all of us. Mellaart and Gimbutas, interesting as their work might be, are hardly mainstream archaeologists. Both believe the ancient world was controlled by goddess worship. That's not a mainstream idea, it's a New Age idea.

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Desiree:
You pardons again, but I only can smile when reading your qualifying ones of Gimbutas and Meelaart. They are exactly two scientific keys that have prolonged the history of the civilization several thousands of years with their investigations... they are scholars with many credentials. And indeed they discovered an old human cult, related to the Goddess Mother... Their tests are so forceful that nobody has refuted nor a word of which done that they studied... The old civilizations are there. With cities, social organization, etc. To maintain the opposite is equal to maintain that the sun turns around the Earth... Also there were more civilizations, like the Vincas, Hamangiar or Danilo Hvar. These early European civilizations were so evolved that Childe thought that 3 thousand years were more modern, of the period of the bronze. But they are of the 5000 BC, that is to say, to the minuses 1,500 years older than the sumerios, with his same technological levels and social organization. And Childe denominates "civilizations"...

 
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« Reply #632 on: December 30, 2007, 02:49:39 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Brig:
Jaime and Desiree: There is nothing wrong with using the Old Testament of the Bible in doing archeological research. It is an accurate history; but it can be used only up to a point. In many cases it is not precise enough in its discriptions. I do not think that Jaime is relying solely on Biblical references. I neither agree with nor disagree with either Jaime or Desiree. I learned, long ago, that unpopular theories can often come unexpectedly to the forefront. Only time will tell. Continental Drift is a prime example. I can remember members of the scientific community laughing at that one and referring to it as VooDoo science.
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I share your commentaries totally... In addition, thank you very much by your hopeful commentaries... to swim against the tide it is not easy.

The examples of gigantic errors of science and official history are many. Recently it is the subject of the **** and the tobacco in mommies; the subject of old connection between America and the Old World; the antiquity and uses of pyramids and the Sphinx, like astronomical tools; the real astronomical and mathematical knowledge of the old world, etc. Official history is full of errors that there are to correct. And the subject of Atlantis is one of key than it is necessary to put in his correct historical site, recognizing the existence of that first civilization with his centre in the Middle East, that was the mother of all the later civilizations. The recent publication of the studies of the human genetics ratifies it in all its parts.

 
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« Reply #633 on: December 30, 2007, 02:50:40 pm »

Desiree

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quote:
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Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:

quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:
Jaime,

I have yet to see a definition of civilization confined to a place that practiced agriculture alone. If you have one by a scholar (with credentials) by all means, show it to all of us. Mellaart and Gimbutas, interesting as their work might be, are hardly mainstream archaeologists. Both believe the ancient world was controlled by goddess worship. That's not a mainstream idea, it's a New Age idea.

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Desiree:
You pardons again, but I only can smile when reading your qualifying ones of Gimbutas and Meelaart. They are exactly two scientific keys that have prolonged the history of the civilization several thousands of years with their investigations... they are scholars with many credentials. And indeed they discovered an old human cult, related to the Goddess Mother... Their tests are so forceful that nobody has refuted nor a word of which done that they studied... The old civilizations are there. With cities, social organization, etc. To maintain the opposite is equal to maintain that the sun turns around the Earth... Also there were more civilizations, like the Vincas, Hamangiar or Danilo Hvar. These early European civilizations were so evolved that Childe thought that 3 thousand years were more modern, of the period of the bronze. But they are of the 5000 BC, that is to say, to the minuses 1,500 years older than the sumerios, with his same technological levels and social organization. And Childe denominates "civilizations"...
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Apparently, I know more about these two than you do, even though you are the one citing them. First off, I never said they didn't have credentials, just that their ideas aren't mainstream, and they aren't. The Universal Goddess Mother has been accepted by Neo_Pagans (of which I am one), but I'll admit that there is no evidence for it.

Having said that, Gimbutas never even suggested there was a single goddess, but rather many!


quote:
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Gimbutas' theories have been extended and embraced by a number of authors in the Neopagan movement, although her conclusions are generally considered speculative. Unlike some of her enthusiastic followers, Gimbutas did not identify the diverse and complex Paleolithic and Neolithic female representations she recognized as depicting a single universal Mother Goddess, but as a range of female deities: snake goddess, bee goddess, bird goddess, mountain goddess, Mistress of the Animals, etc., which were not necessarily ubiquitous throughout Europe
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimbutas


As for there being no criticism towards her work:


quote:
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Her critics instance grave goods as characterizing more familiar Neolithic gender roles, which they allege Gimbutas did not account for, and question her emphasis on female figures when many male or asexual figures have also been found. Andrew Fleming [1], "The Myth of the Mother Goddess," (World Archaeology 1969) denied that Neolithic spirals, circles, and dots were symbols for eyes; that eyes, faces, and genderless figures were symbols of a female; or that certain of Gimbutas' female figures were symbols of a goddess or goddesses. Peter Ucko [2] even speculated that Gimbutas' alleged fertility figures were in reality Neolithic dolls. Her attempts at deciphering Neolithic signs as ideograms, in The Language of the Goddess (1989), received the stiffest resistance in her field of all her speculations.
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As for Mellaart, he's in even worse trouble with scholars. Not only was he supposed to be involved in the black market,selling antiquities, he was banned from Turkey for a time because of it. Official criticsm towards his work goes like this:


quote:
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According to Mellaart's theories, Catalhoyuk was a prominent place of mother goddess worship. However, many other archaeologists did not agree and the dispute created a controversy. Mellaart was even accused of making up at least some of the mythological stories he presented as genuine. The furor caused Turkish government to close up the site. The site was unattended for the next 30 years until the excavations were begun anew in 1990s.

The city as a whole covers roughly 32.5 acres (130,000 mē), and housing 5,000-8,000 people, whereas the norm for the time was around one tenth of this size. The site stirred great excitement when Mellaart announced it and has since caused much head scratching. In fact, more recent work as turned up comparable features at other early Neolithic sites in the Near East, and this has benefited many people in their understanding of the site and therefore many of its once mysteries are no longer real issues.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mellaart

As I said, I find both their idea interestung, but their opinions are hardly in the mainstream, and if you're citing either of them to make your case that the new idea of what constitutes a "civilization" has changed from thew traditional viewpoint, I think you'll have to do much better that that.

 
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« Reply #634 on: December 30, 2007, 02:52:30 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

What common people think about the discoveries, nothing has to do with the discoveries in himself.

The great reformers in different fields always have had great adversaries... And while more rooted the old ideas, more powerful they are the enemies whom they love to maintain the status quo. And I assure to you that in the academic field there are really miserable personages... An example is the idiot one in charge of pyramids of Egypt, Zahi Hawass, that surely that is about to there to lick it dull of the Egyptian dictators and not by its academic level. Whenever I see him in the television, I have desires to vomit... He is a sinister and corrupt personage.

Mellaart and Gimbutas were investigators hard criticized because their findings collapsed many of the important works of academic, as the same Childe or Woolley, true Gods of archaeology. Their data undermined totally perfectly constructed history of the civilization that was distributed in all the world Universities. Almost all the hints, of which you make echoes, never was proved.

In the case of Mellaart they were used to remove it from there. n fact, the new investigator in charge of Chatal Hoyuk, Ian Hodder, more or less reached the same conclusions that Meelaart... 30 years later... in 5 books... and is described to him as being one of the main theoreticians of modern archaeology, with great number of published works. Meelaart was not so skilful in Public Relations.

Today, the works of Gimbutas are key to establish the history of the neolithic one of the danuviana region, and the Indo-European invaders continue themselves calling kurgos, as it she established.

James has also written numerous books and articles on his findings, such as:

- The Archaeology of Ancient Turkey,

- Catalhoyuk a Neolithic Town in Anatolia,

- Earliest Civilizations of the Near East,

- The Earliest Settlements in Western Asia: From the Ninth to the End of the Fifth Millennium B.C.,

- Excavations at Hacilar, and The Neolithic of the Near East.

 
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« Reply #635 on: December 30, 2007, 02:53:24 pm »

nekozuki

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Dang! I can't believe this argument is still going on. Give it up Jaime, no one is convinced that Atlantis

is in Israel.

 
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« Reply #636 on: December 30, 2007, 02:54:19 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Dang! I can't believe this argument is still going on. Give it up Jaime, no one is convinced that Atlantis is in Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dang, Dang...   

The result of this investigation is not a subject of tastes, or simple opinions of non expert, or democratic voting about which theory prefers each one. It is a problem of scientific tests.

And it is clear that no other theory is able to surpass successfully the challenge that raises the results of the Genographic Project.

This scientific project relates the true history on the passage of the human being and defines in categorical form where the civilization began: the Middle East. Also it says when: it does but of 10 thousand years. There they are the M12f2.1 marker and M172 marker. That is the original population of Atlantis.

For science it is clear that it left the civilization there and that those populations took the civilization to the rest of the world, as I indicate in my theory. No one civilized people came from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean; no one civilized people came from Spain to Egypt; no one civilized people came from America to the Old Continent; no one civilized people came from Hyperborean to the south; no one civilized people come from Asia to the Middle East. This is categorical. As the scientific well-known Kurt Lambeck say to me in Greece, if Atlantis existed, were in Israel.

With this great project the fantasy in this investigation was ended. All the rest is speculations without scientific base. If somebody still has doubts, which it watches here:

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
 
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« Reply #637 on: December 30, 2007, 02:55:58 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 06-01-2006 11:53 PM                       
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:
Desiree:

What common people think about the discoveries, nothing has to do with the discoveries in himself.

The great reformers in different fields always have had great adversaries... And while more rooted the old ideas, more powerful they are the enemies whom they love to maintain the status quo. And I assure to you that in the academic field there are really miserable personages... An example is the idiot one in charge of pyramids of Egypt, Zahi Hawass, that surely that is about to there to lick it dull of the Egyptian dictators and not by its academic level. Whenever I see him in the television, I have desires to vomit... He is a sinister and corrupt personage.

Mellaart and Gimbutas were investigators hard criticized because their findings collapsed many of the important works of academic, as the same Childe or Woolley, true Gods of archaeology. Their data undermined totally perfectly constructed history of the civilization that was distributed in all the world Universities. Almost all the hints, of which you make echoes, never was proved.

In the case of Mellaart they were used to remove it from there. n fact, the new investigator in charge of Chatal Hoyuk, Ian Hodder, more or less reached the same conclusions that Meelaart... 30 years later... in 5 books... and is described to him as being one of the main theoreticians of modern archaeology, with great number of published works. Meelaart was not so skilful in Public Relations.

Today, the works of Gimbutas are key to establish the history of the neolithic one of the danuviana region, and the Indo-European invaders continue themselves calling kurgos, as it she established.

James has also written numerous books and articles on his findings, such as:

- The Archaeology of Ancient Turkey,

- Catalhoyuk a Neolithic Town in Anatolia,

- Earliest Civilizations of the Near East,

- The Earliest Settlements in Western Asia: From the Ninth to the End of the Fifth Millennium B.C.,

- Excavations at Hacilar, and The Neolithic of the Near East.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Jaime,

I agree with you on Zawi Hawass, I think the guy is either corrupt or incompetent! Maybe both. I also agree that Melaart and Gimbutas have done some interesting work and that they will probably be given a lot more credit in the future than they are now.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the accepted first civilization by the academic community still is Sumeria, above all the others. That whole criteria listed above are what is commonly used to define a civilization. Sumeria has it, Catal Hoyuk and Jericho only possess parts of those definitions.

If you want to broaden the idea of civilization more, then that would mean that all the other ancient areas found in South and Central America would still apply, and they are, at the very least contemporary with one another. 
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« Reply #638 on: December 30, 2007, 02:57:11 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 06-01-2006 11:56 PM                       
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Dang! I can't believe this argument is still going on. Give it up Jaime, no one is convinced that Atlantis is in Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Neko! I'll say. Why would Atlantis even be called Atlantis if it was within the Pillars of Hercules! 
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« Reply #639 on: December 30, 2007, 02:59:42 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 06-02-2006 12:04 AM                       
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Dang! I can't believe this argument is still going on. Give it up Jaime, no one is convinced that Atlantis is in Israel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dang, Dang...   

The result of this investigation is not a subject of tastes, or simple opinions of non expert, or democratic voting about which theory prefers each one. It is a problem of scientific tests.

And it is clear that no other theory is able to surpass successfully the challenge that raises the results of the Genographic Project.

This scientific project relates the true history on the passage of the human being and defines in categorical form where the civilization began: the Middle East. Also it says when: it does but of 10 thousand years. There they are the M12f2.1 marker and M172 marker. That is the original population of Atlantis.

For science it is clear that it left the civilization there and that those populations took the civilization to the rest of the world, as I indicate in my theory. No one civilized people came from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean; no one civilized people came from Spain to Egypt; no one civilized people came from America to the Old Continent; no one civilized people came from Hyperborean to the south; no one civilized people come from Asia to the Middle East. This is categorical. As the scientific well-known Kurt Lambeck say to me in Greece, if Atlantis existed, were in Israel.

With this great project the fantasy in this investigation was ended. All the rest is speculations without scientific base. If somebody still has doubts, which it watches here:

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, so you found one person to agree with you. Jaime, do you know how many people I can find to agree with me? Half the world believes that, if Atlantis existed, it was in he Atlantic. You mentioned the invasions, as it happens, Cro-Magnon man was invading Europe just as the Ice Age ended, the same time as Plato sets Atlantis.

In order for something to be called Atlantis, you have to have geographic areas similar to the ones that Plato wrote of. The fact that the island (and that's what it was) hasn't been found yet is besides the point, Plato's geography points to the Atlantic. 
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« Reply #640 on: December 30, 2007, 03:00:40 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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 Desiree wrote:
Wow, so you found one person to agree with you. Jaime, do you know how many people I can find to agree with me? Half the world believes that, if Atlantis existed, it was in he Atlantic. You mentioned the invasions, as it happens, Cro-Magnon man was invading Europe just as the Ice Age ended, the same time as Plato sets Atlantis.
In order for something to be called Atlantis, you have to have geographic ares similar to the ones that Plato wrote of. The fact that the island (and that's what it was) hasn't been found yet is besides the point, Plato's geography points to the Atlantic.
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Here, in this investigation, the reality is separates definitively to fantasy. It does not exist any type of test for to believe at least what you affirm. It is no species previous to homo sapiens sapiens that it reached the levels of civilization in the last 200 thousands of years. If sometimes, in some remote time, some species reached seemed levels, something as an intelligent lizard as the man, was at least 50 million ago years. That is definitive. Or Atlantis was Canaan and the region of the Middle East or never existed. It is the only possibility that science tolerate.

Science I does not allow to invent mysterious races or mysterious peoples come from mysterious land. That is necessary to leave it to Madame Blavatsky and the esoteric persons, with its Mu, its Lemurias and its different races from fantasy. And I have not anything in common with them and they have not anything in common with the scientific research...

--------------------
 
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« Reply #641 on: December 30, 2007, 03:02:02 pm »

Desiree

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Or Atlantis was Canaan and the region of the Middle East or never existed. It is the only possibility that science tolerate.
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Science (unlike you) allows for the idea that civilizations could have sprung up at different times and different places, independent from one another, that not all ancient civilizations had to have anything to do with Atlantis, and that there may have also been even older ones that we haven't yet discovered.

But, all that aside, your version of Atlantis has nothing to do with the one that Plato describes. It isn't a popularity contest, but from what I've seen even academics don't give much thought to the idea of Atlantis being in Israel.

The reason why so much emphasis is given to Atlantis being in the Atlantic is simple, Plato sets it there. Which tells me it was there, but the sunken isle simply hasn't been found yet. There's about three strong possibilities for the central city tp have been (both in the ocean and near the coast), but since other people are working on them, I won't describe them.

As for Blavastsky and Mu, that has more to do with your work than my research since your work was initially inspired by the Bible. 
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« Reply #642 on: December 30, 2007, 03:03:30 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Yes, of course. The civilization started off in very different places... like the industrialism, the nuclear theory, computer science, the electricity, or the telephony, or the television... And sure also we will find an island sunk in Atlantic, that had flying ships and atomic boats... The exploration of these submarine territories is making them Walt Disney... Already there are several documentary ones on the subject... And Plato cannot have been mistaken because he knew all science Atlantis, to the equal Cayse and Blavastsky, since all were initiated in the mysteries of human the old races that populated the Earth million ago years... of Mu and Lemuria... I promise you that I am able to fill 50 page of this site with equal subjects these...

 

And about the deficiency of recognition of my theory, in only one year, is "top ten". Watches this one site:

http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue8/ar8topten.html
 
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« Reply #643 on: December 30, 2007, 03:04:58 pm »

Desiree

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It mentions Baalbek, it doesn't meantion you, and that's an old list, too, made way back before you even came up with your theory. Saudi Arabia and the Sahara are given greater emphasis.

The Atlantis theory is number one on this and every list for one simple reason: Plato set it there.

As for those other things, did the Bible say your Atlantis in the Middle East has electricity, nuclear bombs and stuff? Cause that's apparently the place where all your info comes from. I guess that Moses was an Atlantean, too?
 
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« Reply #644 on: December 30, 2007, 03:05:56 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:
It mentions Baalbek, it doesn't meantion you, and that's an old list, too, made way back before you even came up with your theory. Saudi Arabia and the Sahara are given greater emphasis.

The Atlantis theory is number one on this and every list for one simple reason: Plato set it there.

As for those other things, did the Bible say your Atlantis in the Middle East has electricity, nuclear bombs and stuff? Cause that's apparently the place where all your info comes from. I guess that Moses was an Atlantean, too?
 
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Jajajajaja...   

Yes, and David, and Thot, and Jesus... if it is that they existed... It would be necessary to research if the Saint-Clair or Sinclair has that blood and if they are Saint Grail or San-G Real... thus we solve two myths together... 

Surely which also they were it the first governors (no kings) of Sumer... and many present European and Semites are their descendants. It is enough to watch haplogroup... perhaps until you have something of his blood... perhaps a pair of drops...

That still the theory of the Atlantic is first, does not have importance, because in two thousand five hundred years it has been in that position, and nevertheless, until now anything it has been possible to prove scientifically...

About the territory of my theory, I supposed correctly that your commentary would be that... seems soap, smells like soap, has soap form, it produces spume as soap... but is cheese...

The latest is a Spanish joke about a camaņejo obstinate.

 
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