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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 15960 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #615 on: December 30, 2007, 02:06:15 pm »

Author  Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 
Helios

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   posted 05-14-2006 02:33 PM                       
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It can be seen that in the area of the present Azores and Canaries, which are most often pointed out as the remains of the sunken Atlantis, there had been no sizeable land area.

It can also be seen that in the west of Europe, where now the North Sea is situated, and around the British Isles, during the last Ice Age there had existed a vast area of land, large enough, without any stretch, for a plain two by three thousand stades.
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Clearly, Plato's measurements were off, or else there is something we are not seeing yet. If one places Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean, the two of the three best candidates would be in the Canaries and Azores, with the third being in the Bahamas region.

the Azores>>>Geologist Christian O'Brien suggests that these islands were once part of a bigger landmass. Stone buildings and a statue were said to be found on the smallest island, Corso, upon their original discovery.

the Canaries>>>Prone to massive landslides in the past, perhaps there is one that we missed.

Bahamas>>>According to information I've read here, the natives of the area claim the Bahamas Islands once comprised a single massive island.

None of these islands in themselves, even made larger, would fit the dimensions of Plato's Atlantic Island. Then, maybe he was referring to the size of the empire itself (islands amidst the ocean) when he stated it was "larger than Libya and Asia combined."

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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."

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Huggy

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  posted 05-14-2006 02:43 PM                       
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http://dusk2.geo.orst.edu/djl/viz/mar_ve2.gif

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As Above So Below.

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Posts: 1442 | From: Native forest | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged |   
 
Huggy

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  posted 05-14-2006 02:48 PM                       
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On the western side of Meru, O king, is Ketumala. 2 And there also is Jamvukhanda. Both are great seats of humanity, O king. 3 There, O Bharata, the measure of human life is ten thousand years. The men are all of a golden complexion, and the women are like Apsaras. And all the residents are without sickness, without sorrow, and always cheerful. The men born there are of the effulgence of melted gold. On the summits of Gandhamadana, Kuvera the lord of the Guhyakas, with many Rakshasas and accompanied by tribes of Apsaras, passeth his time in joy. Besides Gandhamadana there are many smaller mountains and hills. The measure of human life there is eleven thousand years. There, O king, the men are cheerful, and endued with great energy and great strength and the women are all of the complexion of the lotus and highly beautiful. Beyond Nila is (the Varsha called) Sweta, beyond Sweta is (the Varsha called) Hiranyaka. Beyond Hiranyaka is (the Varsha called) Airavata covered with provinces. The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow. These five Varshas (viz., Sweta, Hiranyaka, Elavrita, Harivarsha, and Haimavat-varsha) are in the middle, of which Elavrita exists in the very middle of all. Amongst these seven Varshas (the five already mentioned and Airavata and Bharata) that which is further north excels the one to its immediate south in respect of these attributes, viz., the period of life, stature, health, righteousness, pleasure, and profit. In these Varshas, O Bharata, creatures (though of diverse species) yet, live together. Thus, O king, is Earth covered with mountains. The huge mountains of Hemakuta are otherwise called Kailasa. There, O king, Vaisravana passeth his time in joy with his Guhyakas. Immediately to the north of Kailasa and near the mountains of Mainaka there is a huge and beautiful mountain called Manimaya endued with golden summits. Beside this mountain is a large, beautiful, crystal and delightful lake called Vindusaras with golden sands (on its beach).

The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow.

The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow.

The last Varsha in the (extreme) north and Bharata's Varsha in the (extreme) south are both, O king, of the form of a bow.

[ 05-14-2006, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Huggy Bear ]

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As Above So Below.

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Posts: 1442 | From: Native forest | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged |   
 
Briwnys

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   posted 05-14-2006 04:43 PM                       
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More than any other culture, the people of Gaul and the British Isles have a rich tradition populated with uncanny visitations from the ocean's depths and cities sunken by the wrath of the sea, so it is easy to believe that something momentous must have happened to this land and its people, culminating in a series of events so catastrophic the memory still lingers in the myths and legends of the surrounding countryside. Recorded history tells us almost nothing for the people of this land came late to the written word; yet, it is possible to draw a broad outline of this distant past from the scant records, filling in the blanks with newly discovered genetic, archeological and geological data.

At the seaward end of the Dyfi Valley in Wales, you can sometimes see the ancient remains of a submerged forest. These decaying stumps of 3,500 year-old trees once surrounded the sunken cities of a great kingdom called Cantref y Gwaelod. Its many towns, farms and gleaming cities were protected from the sea by a series of sluices and dams but years of neglect weakened the defenses. One night in the depths of winter during the highest tides of the season, a gigantic storm produced a huge surge that swept over the dam as one great wave and the whole of the kingdom vanished beneath the sea. Some of the ancient roadways and part of the dam system, it is said, are still visible out in the bay during the lowest tides of the year.

Lyonesse, a kingdom that lay between Land's End and St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, is another realm submerged beneath the waves in the blink of an eye. At certain tides, the muffled chiming of bells can still be heard, while it was reported for centuries that fishermen would sometimes snag roof tiles in their nets.

St Michael's Mount, a lofty pyramidal tidal island exhibiting a curious combination of slate and granite, rises just off the shore of Mount's Bay in Cornwall. Its name in Cornish means "the grey rock in the wood", which may stem from a time before the bay was flooded, since it is an accurate description of a mountain set in a woodland. Local legends tell of a forest that sunk at the same time as the flooding of Lyonesse.

Attempts have been made to place the sinking of Lyonesse somewhere at the end of the first millennium of the current era, but no entries related to the place have been found in any of the records of that period. We do know of other places lost to the sea around this time, though the process took much longer. The sinking of the central plain that once made the Scilly Isles one landmass began during the Bronze Age. More than five hundred Neolithic and Bronze Age sites above the present high water line have been excavated, and, at low tide, rectangular and square field walls, hut circles, graves and cists show clearly that the whole central area between the islands of St Mary, Tresco, Bryher and St Martin was once a fertile plain surrounded by the hills and crags that are now islands and rocks. Scilly was still one island in Roman times but most of it was marshy ground. It was not until the Tudor period that the last part of this marshland sank, leaving the islands as we know them today.

Across the antediluvian plain now covered by the waters of the English Channel, the sunken city of Ys lies in the Bay of Douarnenez off the coast of Brittany. The Brythonic Llydaw - the Breton Peninsula - shares a numinous heritage with the Gaelic Lochlann as the home of otherworldly creatures, for Brittany has always been regarded as a land of marvels where places like the forest of Brocéliande offer a home to fairies and wizards, and drowned cities hint at a mystical world, lost, like Atlantis, beneath the green waves of the Atlantic.

According to the legend, Gradlon, the King of Cornwall, made Ys his capitol. He owned a great fleet that he used to fight against his enemies, often in distant countries where the weather was cold. He was an excellent sailor and strategist and often won his battles, plundering the enemy boats and filling his chests with gold and trophies, so that the fame of his city spread throughout the world.

Ys was protected from the ocean by a strong dyke and by a gate built into the dyke to take the outflowing tidal water. Either by treachery or by accident, the gate was left open and the sea rushed in, inundating the city and the surrounding country. After the sinking of Ys, Gradlon moved his capitol to Quimper, which raises the question, why would the king of Cornwall move his capitol to Brittany unless Cornwall and Brittany were parts of the same kingdom? And did they also occupy the same geographic landmass before the sinking of Ys?

A possible answer may be found in The Mabinongion, a collection of medieval Welsh stories translated by Lady Charlotte Guest in the 19th century. The story of "Branwen, Daughter of Llyr" concerns the marriage of the sister of Bran and Manannan to the King of Ireland, her mistreatment at his hands and the war that ensued. When Bran set out to rescue his sister, the oldest translations state that he traveled primarily by land as he crossed between the islands of Britain and Ireland: "Bendigeidfran and the host… sailed towards Ireland, and in those days the deep water was not wide. He went by wading. There were but two rivers, the Lli and the Archan were they called, but thereafter the deep water grew wider when the deep overflowed the kingdoms."

http://www.geocities.com/blessed_isles/Lochlann/Images/Europe9560bc.jpg


Although largely based on early medieval historical events, scholars agree that some references in The Mabinongion may go as far back as the beginning of the Iron Age, around 800 BCE. The problem with this particular reference is that the separation of Ireland from Britain occurred much earlier. Dates on the freshwater sediments found on the shelf of the Irish Sea, coupled with the results of geophysical modeling of Earth crustal rebound from ice loading, suggest a severance of the land bridge connection between Britain and Ireland occurred around 10,000 BCE. And the final inundation of the land bridge linking the island of Britain to the mainland of Europe has been traced to the events that created the Straits of Dover around 6500 BCE.

http://www.geocities.com/blessed_isles/Lochlann/Page2.html

Briwnys

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Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged |   
 
Boreasi

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   posted 05-15-2006 05:11 PM                       
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Well, the point is that the place was overran by water, at the time when the great flood appeared.

Scandinavia was overran. And it rose again. As the ocean-level rose with it. Though, - the reaction to the disappearance of the ice-cap over-running Scandinvania was big enough to induce a tectonic pressure that made Scandinavia itself to rise twice as much as the general rise of the ocean-level. Thus the inner part of Fenno-Scandina are believed to have been the centre of the Scandinavian-Russian ice-cap - because the northern part of the Botnic Bay have risen 220 metres, pluss the rising of the ocean-level, believed to have been some 160 metres.

Today the rising of the Scandinavian Penninsula have lasted for 10.000 years. Today we also know that the speed of the rising was great at first, kick-started by the sudden down-sliding of the ice-cap, filling the ocean and rising its level - some 10-13.000 years ago. The first 200 metres rise happened within the first 300 years, thereafter rising 200 meters more in 10.000 years - gradually slowing down. Presently we're down to some 1/3 cm a year - so soon we should be comming to a full stop of the tectonic aftermath of the Scandsinavian ice-time.

Simultaniously the last glaciers of the poles seems to disapear, as do the glacier covering Greenland. Thus we may have to adjust once again to a new type of climate, as our ancestors did - wherever they lived - when ice-time occurred and the global climate changed deastically. When they could survive that cataclysm, we should still have a fair chance surviving ours - somehow. Looking into the reality of our Atlantean ancestors - that crossed the oceans 10.000 years ago - we might even learn a thing or two about how to handle climatical or global changes. As long as we still have Scandinavia we don't need the Atlantic Ridge to explain the Atlantean "hartland" and geography.
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Trinity

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   posted 05-15-2006 10:37 PM                       
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Lyonesse, a kingdom that lay between Land's End and St. Michael's Mount in Cornwall, is another realm submerged beneath the waves in the blink of an eye. At certain tides, the muffled chiming of bells can still be heard, while it was reported for centuries that fishermen would sometimes snag roof tiles in their nets.
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Has evidence ever been found that Lyoness ever existed? Far as I know, it is a folk legend based on the real disappearance of ancient Dunwich, which also mentions the muffled chiming of bells.
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Briwnys

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   posted 05-15-2006 11:47 PM                       
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Attempts have been made to place the sinking of Lyonesse somewhere at the end of the first millennium of the current era, but no entries related to the place have been found in any of the records of that period.
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Lyonesse, like many of the other cities mentioned, have never been specifically proved to have existed. The persistance of the legends and some of the evidence, such as sunken forests,recovered artifacts and similarity of the accounts, does indicate there is some validity to these stories.

In September 2003, evidence of two Stone Age settlements was found in the British North Sea, dating back as far as 10,000 years. The cities, located more than 500 meters off the Tyneside coast, were submerged as sea levels rose after the last ice age.

David Miles, chief archaeologist at English Heritage, said, "We know that there is a prehistoric Atlantis beneath the North sea, where an area equal to the size of Britain attached us to the continent. This discovery gives us a stepping stone into this unknown world."

http://s8int.com/water9.html


Briwnys

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To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible

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rockessence

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   posted 05-16-2006 10:29 AM                       
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Briwnys,

This was specifically spoken of in the Oera Linde papers, and is also discussed in Felice Vinci's new book on Homer: The Baltic Origin of Homer's Epic Tales

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000116

"a prehistoric Atlantis beneath the North sea, where an area equal to the size of Britain attached us to the continent"

In the Oera Linde material, (if I recall) it was at that time and island called Aland, and the sinking of it was horribly shocking, as the people there were considered to be at an extremely high spiritual level.

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"Illigitimi non carborundum!"
All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17

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atalante
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   posted 05-18-2006 08:04 AM                       
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The "Graveyard of the Sun" was constructed as a fortified memorial around a meteorite crater at approximately 700 to 400 BC. Previously ca. 5500 BC (=7500 BP) a meteorite had crashed to earth and destroyed Saaremaa, an island off the coast of Estonia. http://www.muinas.ee/ecp/kaali/en/html/facts.html

http://www.saaremaa.ee/eng/tourism/saaremaa/kaali.php

ca 2000 BC, a lake formed in the center of the main Kaali crater. It was regarded as a sacred lake by the local peoples.

The local people preserve a legend that Phaethon (of Greek myths), whom the locals call Fetonte, crashed to earth there.

Here is a link which explains the Graveyard of the Sun, and discusses the possibility that Pytheas visited the crater, ca 350 BC.

quote from:
http://webpages.charter.net/anthropogene/arc_vol2_is11.html

The Germanic tribes mentioned by Pytheas are the Guiones or Gutones, later known as the Goths who would gathered the amber off the shores and the Teutoni.who appeared to be the middlemen in the amber trade.

The tin trade had Ictis, the amber trade had an equally mysterious locale known as Abalus or Basilia - whose exact location is unknown and whose reputation enjoys almost supernatural renown - being the Germanic Avalon. Tacitus in his account of the Germans makes passing reference to the isle, and if one is willing to accept the veracity of the Oera Linda manuscript, the island may have been a center of the old earth mother religion. In regards to Pytheas, best to pass by these speculations...

Regardless, the ocean's work has erased most of Abalus. Pytheas may have mentioned the destruction that occurred along the coastline 20 years (350 BC) or so before his voyage, that isolated the West Frisian islands from the mainland, and let the sea into the fresh water lake now known as the Zuyder Dee. Later would follow the great inundation that would drive the Cimbri and Teutoni towards their fateful encounter with Rome.

Xenophon claimed Abalus was a three days sail from the coastline and of immense size. Today, the island of Heligoland, the best guess, is hardly immense in any way, though "its red cliffs, two hundred feet high create a reassuring and easily recognizable landmark... an ideal off-shore port-of-trade."- Barry Cunliffe

Most curiously, the priests or priestess's of Abalus ceremonially burnt amber. An offering to the gods of the sky? For as the tale went, amber were the tears of the sisters of Fetonte, who wept along the banks of the Eridanus after his fall from heaven.

The Grave of the Sun

"...the Aests showed him the grave of the Sun, or the place where the Sun fell asleep."

Barry Cunliffe in his book The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek makes no claim that Pytheas ventured into the Baltic sea area, J. Oliver Thomson believes he did in order to learn more about amber and that the Massaliot did indeed visit "the whole of the coasts of Europe."

If he did then the above quote would be confirmation that Pytheas had encountered the Aestii, a Fenno-Ugric people inhabiting present day Estonia. And there is only one spot that would match "the place where the Sun fell asleep."

Off the coast of Estonia is the island of Saarema. Here archaeologists have found the remains of towns (the Asva dig), indicating that during the Bronze Age the island was, relatively speaking, densely populated. Whether these people were the Aests, or if the Aests came later in unknown, but whoever they were enough has been found to indicate a thriving culture, dependent on cattle, agriculture and fishing.

The exact date of their demise is unknown, sometime between 800 BC and 400 BC, the people of the island would suffer an apocalyptic fate. Then storytellers would tell how the chariot of Helios Apollo, driven by the hapless Phaethon (Fetonte) would burn the earth. Now scientists know that a 1000 ton iron meteorite struck Saarema, causing a 20 kiloton blast, larger than the nuclear bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.

A layer of glass spherules and meteor fragments have been uncovered. Six kilometers west of the impact site, the telltale sign of iridium (an impact ejecta) was found in the Piila bog and confirmed through the usual methods such as carbon dating. A layer of charcoal indicates that forest fires must have engulfed most of the island in the aftermath of the blast.

The impact crater is easily found. 350 feet across, the shallow lake known as the Kaali Crater marks the site, surrounded by eight smaller craters. This Estonian website has greater detail on the event.

Recovery was slow in the aftermath of Kaali, though people eventually did return - crop cultivation started again after a hundred years.

The lake would become a sacred place - and exploited economically once the fear was gone and it was realized that the meteorite fragments could be smelted into iron. By the time of Pytheas, a log fortress with five towers had been erected at the site, a stone wall built around the crater.

A Flight of Fancy

The Massaliot returned home, and published his account, the book eventually finding a home in the ill-fated Library of Alexandria. There are no details how he fared after his epic voyage or whether he undertook similar expeditions.

Has too much been read into the exploits of Pytheas by later researchers? Probably. There appear to be conflicting quotes about the exact location of the grave of the sun. Was the statement meant to refer to refer to the far reaches of the Atlantic beyond Thule as interpreted by Cunliffe - or did he indeed venture east into the Baltic to Kaali?

We do know that Pytheas did indeed sail beyond the known world of his age. And we do know that Kaali was indeed a catastrophic event, only remembered in myth. Whether they have any connection, is probably imagination, but well worth the try.

endquote

[ 05-18-2006, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: atalante ]
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Desiree

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   posted 05-23-2006 09:36 PM                       
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Here is some info on the satellite discovery of Ubar, said to be called, "the Atlantis of the Sands."


Iram of the Pillars

Iram of the Pillars (إرَم ذات العماد, Iram dhāt al-`imād), also called Ubar or Wabar or the City of a Thousand Pillars, is a lost city apparently on the Arabian Peninsula.

Ubar was mentioned in ancient records and was spoken of in folk tales as a trading center of the Rub al Khali Desert in the southern part of the Arabian peninsula. It is estimated that it lasted from about 3000 B.C to the first century A.D. It became, according to legends, fabulously wealthy from trade of the coastal regions to the population centers of the middle-east and even into Europe. The city became lost to modern history, and was thought to be only a figment of mythical tales.

The Qur'an (e.g., Sura 89) says that Iram was a city built by the tribe of Ad, the great-grandchildren of Noah. It was a rich and decadent city, filled with wicked people who dabbled in the occult. Its king Shaddad defied the warnings of the prophet Hud, and God smote the city, driving it into the sands, never to be seen again, thus becoming a veritable Atlantis of the deserts. The ruins of the city lie buried somewhere in the sands of the Rub' al Khali. Iram (otherwise spelled Irem) became known to Western literature with the translation of The Book of One Thousand and One Nights.

Re-Discovery of Ubar/Iram

Recent discoveries have brought Iram out of the realm of myth into history.

The first came when tablets found in the archives of Ebla were found to mention Iram by name.

A more recent discovery occurred when archaeologists examined photographs taken of the Persian Gulf Coast from the space shuttle Challenger in 1984. These photos revealed some buried cities along the ancient frankincense trade route dating from 2800 BC and 100 BC. One, on the eastern edge of Oman in the Dhofar province, proved to be a city known as Ubar, which is usually identified with Iram.

In the early 1980s a group of researchers became interested in the history of Ubar. They used remote sensing satellite ground penetrating radar data from NASA, and identified old caravan routes and the point where they converged. Excavations uncovered a fortress which protected the caravan routes and the all-important water source, which was a large limestone cavern underneath the fortress. Evidence of wide-spread trade was also found. As the Ubarites consumed the water from underground, the water table would fall, leaving the limestone roof and walls of the cavern dry. Without the bouyant support of the water, the cavern would have been in danger of collapse. It seems to have done so some time between 300-500 AD, destroying the city and covering over the water source. After this collapse, the city perished.

In 1992, the city was believed to have been rediscovered by Nicholas Clapp, an amateur archaeologist, by using the NASA data. Founded in 900 B.C. and located at one of the few watering holes, the ancient city had been an important trading post on the Incense Road, thus linking the frankincense groves of the coastal Omani Mountains to the markets of the rich cities of the north. Over the centuries the city, now called Ubar, had prospered and grown larger, until one day half of the city collapsed into a giant sinkhole and was abandoned to the sands by its citizens.

Ubar was not discovered through the use of NASA data although this did help identify possible sites. the camel trails were already known about, having been discovered by a previous expedition in 1953. The discovery of the ruins of Ubar was made almost by chance when the team [lead by Ranulph Fiennes] decided to investigate ruins at the site of Shis'r fort which had been previously identified as dating from the 16th century. These remains turned out to be what was left of the 'Atlantis of the Sands'[a name given to it by T.E. Lawrence] Ubar (or Irem/Iram).

In reality, Ubar was not the name of the city, but the name of the region. In the 2nd centiry AD Ptolemy made a map which called the area "Iobaritae", i.e. the Ubarites. The Qur'an called them "the people of 'Ad". Later legends referred to the fabulous wealth of the city and used the region name Ubar to designate it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubar 
 
 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 02:21:36 pm by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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Bianca
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« Reply #616 on: December 30, 2007, 02:22:53 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Rate Member   posted 05-24-2006 07:23 AM                       
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Interesting commentary about Ubar. To the aim all are putting the eyes in the correct zone... I add here a very fresh data about the expansion of human population.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic

There already it is the work of investigation of the movements of the different human populations in the time. This solid investigation, from my point of view, closes any possibility of Atlantis in a different place that Israel and the Middle East. It reviews in special markers M 35, 12f2.1 and M 172. These populations moving agree in exact form with my theory.

In agreement with this analysis, there is no place for an Atlantis that from the West, Spain or America, it had invaded to Europe or Egypt.

The inverse one, all the evidences show, that per millenia, the migrations extended from Next East towards all Earth... The specific markers that I indicate to you are those that represent, according to my studies, to the atlantian, that moved exactly as I indicate in my book and the period that I indicate.

Ah¡¡¡ And these are scientific datas, non speculation or beliefs...

 
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« Reply #617 on: December 30, 2007, 02:24:30 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 05-26-2006 01:11 AM                       
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Wrong again, Jaime. I agree with Rockessence that Ubar is fascinating, but at 2800 bc, it's nowhere near the date where Plato sets Atlantis.

As fot the Middle East being the place where civilization began - rubbish. The only reason why so many finds have been made there is because so much excavation has been done there.

There are tons of mounting evidence that the Americas were settled earlier, and these settlers didn't come from Palestine either.


quote:
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In agreement with this analysis, there is no place for an Atlantis that from the West, Spain or America, it had invaded to Europe or Egypt.

The inverse one, all the evidences show, that per millenia, the migrations extended from Next East towards all Earth... The specific markers that I indicate to you are those that represent, according to my studies, to the atlantian, that moved exactly as I indicate in my book and the period that I indicate.

Ah¡¡¡ And these are scientific datas, non speculation or beliefs...
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Here is some scientifc evidence that you apparently either didn't know about or made a decision to igmore else you wouldn't keep repeating that line about the Middle East having the oldest civilizations in them:


quote:
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Coming To America

For decades, scientists thought the New World was populated by migrants from Asia who wandered down the center of the continent about 12,000 years ago. New discoveries are pushing that theory out to sea. Three views on how humans populated the Americas

• COASTAL Recent finds at Daisy Cave, Calif., and Monte Verde, Chile, point to bands of people moving down the Pacific coast of North and South America much earlier, perhaps 30,000 years ago

• OVERLAND Discoveries at Clovis, N.M., led to the theory that a single human culture moved into the Americas down the eastern side of the Rocky Mountains about 12,000 years ago

• ATLANTIC Artifacts found in South Carolina have led some archaeologists to speculate that early migrants might have arrived on the East Coast from Europe, although the evidence remains in dispute Select

archaeological sites*:

• Other artifacts found Ushki Lake RUSSIA 11,000 B.P. • Human remains found On Your Knees Cave ALASKA 9,818 B.P. • Human remains found Kennewick WASH. 9,400 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Daisy Cave CALIF. 10,500 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Cedros Island MEXICO 11,000 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Folsom N.M. 10,490 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Clovis N.M. 11,200 B.P. • Dates in dispute Meadowcroft PA. 14,250 B.P. • Dates in dispute Cactus Hill VA. 15,070 B.P. • Dates in dispute Topper S.C. 15,200 B.P. • Dates in dispute Taima-Taima VENEZUELA 13,000 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Pedra Furada BRAZIL 47,000 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Lapa do Boquete BRAZIL Up to 12,070 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Tibit COLOMBIA 11,740 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Quebrada Jaguay PERU 10,500 B.P.

• Other artifacts found Monte Verde CHILE 12,500 B.P.

• Human remains found Palli Aike CHILE 8,640 B.P. Tools in the search

ARCHAEOLOGY Skeletons like Kennewick Man are rare. More often scientists study and date other indications of human activity -- remains of butchered animals, stone tools, spear points or even bits of burned charcoal. Unfortunately, such artifacts may never be found along coastal migration routes -- they're now under water

GENETICS Scientists use markers in DNA samples from indigenous peoples in North and South America to figure out when populations diverged from each other. DNA comparisons suggest the first Americans may have diverged from groups in the Lake Baikal area of what is now Russia as early as 26,000 years ago

LINGUISTICS By studying native words and grammar, scientists can establish links and infer the amount of time required for different languages to evolve from a common origin. As of 1492, there were an estimated 1,000 languages in the Americas that may have developed from the original migrants

Migration milestones

• 30,000 B.P.* Beginning of last North American ice age. Mitochondrial-DNA studies indicate the earliest possible migration

• 25,000 Approximate opening of Bering land bridge between Asia and North America • 20,000 Earliest migration date, according to Y-chromosome studies • 15,000 Evidence of humans in South America Glacial melting floods Bering land bridge • 10,000 End of last ice age in North America Kennewick Man lives in Pacific Northwest • 5,000 Dawn of Central American cultures such as Olmec and Maya • Present

*Dates are in radiocarbon years "before the present," a scientific standard meaning "before 1950"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

—With reporting by With reporting by Dan Cray/Los Angeles

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1169905,00.html?internalid=AMP

What do all the above dates have in common? They are all well before the oldest civilization (presumably Jericho) was founded in the Middle east. And the funny thng is, this isn't even the most current info. Mainstream science had it all wrong, there were many pre-Clovis cultures in the America. Yet, while they have admitted that, you still seem to be using their old data. So, in summary, you are using some scientific data, you're not using the most relevant ones, and you're also ignoring the findings that don't pertain to your particular theory.

 
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« Reply #618 on: December 30, 2007, 02:30:43 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Desirre:

It is clear again that you have not made the home work. It is not possible to discuss these subjects with persons who still think those that the Sumerian was the first civilization. Today it has been totally demonstrated and it recognized by any investigator moderately formed, for more than 30 years at least, of the existence of civilized cities 4 thousand years before Sumerian civilization.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 The Fertile Crescent was inhabited with several distinct, flourishing cultures between the end of the last ice age (c. 10,000 BC) and the beginning of history. These include the Ubaid culture and the Uruk period. One of the oldest known Neolithic sites in Mesopotamia is Jarmo, settled around 7000 BC and broadly contemporary with Jericho and Çatal Hüyük (Anatolia). It as well as other early Neolithic sites were in north Mesopotamia; later Sumerian settlements in southern Mesopotamia required complicated irrigation methods.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Mesopotamia

As serious as the previous thing in not understanding what is the line of the time and putting everything in a same bag. Also any investigator moderately formed knows that agriculture is the objective base of the civilization. Is a condition Sine qua non. (Sine qua non: "Without which not". It is said of a necessary condition for something. Sometimes the turn is formulated as conditio sine qua non) Also all investigator knows that Jericho and the Natufian is the objective base for it. You not even understand the essential deference between civilization and noncivilization.

You say that these interested in the truth, but the truth is that your commentaries are only pseudoscience and they remember me to Latin investigator on the subject, call Jorge Diaz Sanchez, more known by his nick Georgeos Diaz Montexano, that has specialized in the subject in the last time. The pseudoscience is characterized by the following thing:

1) Construction of irrefutable hypotheses (like its land of Atlantis in the Atlantic, witch as it is not possible to be found, cannot be refuted)

(2) Investigation by exegesis of text (nothing essential, but pure commentaries and irrelevant notes)

(3) Explanation by scenes (you have constructed a general scene on your theory because it says Plato to it, but you do not have specific and concrete data that are true and demonstrable).

(4) Construction of arguments from similarities spurious (you mix pears with grapes, you mix scientific data with mythology or with your own beliefs, etc.)

(5) Belief that the simple quantitative accumulation of evidence compensates the deficiency in quality of the particular evidences. (You have filled these pages with many irrelevant data)

(6) Refusal to put under a fundamental conception and an empirical contrast controlled your beliefs (you refuse to understand that it is science and that it is not it and to accept a scientific methodology to follow)

(7) Deficiency of a mechanism self correction of errors. (You do not accept any scientific solid and verified data, as that there is no an island sunk in the Atlantic or that there was no civilization in America does 11 thousand years)

Also I want that you have left clear as it is my interest to respond your commentaries. I believe that in the free societies everybody have the right to say what we want, including you and I. I respect that idea because it seems to me essential in a free society. Nevertheless, it seems to me essential to distinguish the serious scientific research of pseudoscience.

My objective when responding is to separate the things. To distinguish with clarity that is science and that is ignorance, disinformation and pseudoscience, which damages the work of the investigators who we worried seriously on the subject.

With that, the readers of these pages, formed their own opinion of the subject.

 
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« Reply #619 on: December 30, 2007, 02:32:45 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 05-27-2006 07:40 AM                       
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Desiree:

Pardons you, but it is evident your low level of knowledge in important matters as archaeology, anthropology and sociology. In order to reach the civilization levels that allow to great cities and important international trade, were required thousands of years of stable evolution, or colonization, as its show these cities. These cities in Arabia are parallel in the time to many Egyptian cities and the first city, so far, well known in America, it call Caral. In addition, as it indicate all these genetics data, that you have not to study its of serious form, show the routes crossed by different group human through the Earth and the time, and simultaneously the reached evolutionary levels, data that cannot be ignored. And this study is categorical: all the peoples producing food (civilized) emigrated of the Middle East, for 12 thousand years back, specifically from Jericho and the Natufian culture .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaime,

Pardon me, but apparently you have an even lower level knowledge in important matters as archaeology, anthropology and sociology if you're going to pass Jericho and Natufian culteres off as civilizations anymore than those in South America. Where is their writing, mythology, inventions, and evidence of government? There's a reason why the real experts in the field credit Sumeria with being the first civilization, namely the Sumerians had those things while the Natufians did not. They were a hunter-gatherer culture typical of others in it's time.

In the Middle East, you have evidence that agriculture may have started in the Fertile Crescent in 12,00 b.c But agriculture in itself doesn't make a civilization, nor (once again) does it make your case for Atlantis.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All the data that you indicate of human presence in America or other points, are absolutely irrelevant for the matter that we treated. All of them are still hunters and gatherers, some of very primary levels. These cultures were not civilizations, as it is understood in anthropological terms, with cities and agriculture. It is like comparing pears with grapes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee guess what, Jaime? Maybe you should read Wikipedia's Natufian entry again:



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subsistence

The Natufian people lived by hunting and gathering. The preservation of plant remains is poor because of the soil conditions, but wild cereals, legumes, almonds, acorns and pistachios may have been collected. Animal bones show that gazelle (Gazella gazella and Gazella subgutturosa) were the main prey. Additionally deer, wild cattle and wild boar were hunted in the steppe zone onagers and caprids (Ibex) as well. Water fowl and freshwater fish formed part of the diet in the Jordan-valley. Animal bones from Salibiya I (12,300–10,800 BP) have been interpreted as evidence for communal hunts with nets.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee, looks like the Natufians were hunter-gatherers, too! 

So, what separated them from other cultures of their time? Well, for the most part, very little, except, of course, that you singled them out for a role in your book.

As for the human presence in the Americas being "irrelevant" to the matters we are treating, if that us your actual view towards the development of civilization, you should be embarrassed for even calling yourself a researcher. It seems that, rather than be in an honest pursuit of the truth, you are still simply looking to promote ideas in your book.
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« Reply #620 on: December 30, 2007, 02:34:11 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Rate Member   posted 05-27-2006 11:09 AM                       
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Desirre:

It is clear again that you have not made the home work. It is not possible to discuss these subjects with persons who still think those that the Sumerian was the first civilization. Today it has been totally demonstrated and it recognized by any investigator moderately formed, for more than 30 years at least, of the existence of civilized cities 4 thousand years before Sumerian civilization.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 The Fertile Crescent was inhabited with several distinct, flourishing cultures between the end of the last ice age (c. 10,000 BC) and the beginning of history. These include the Ubaid culture and the Uruk period. One of the oldest known Neolithic sites in Mesopotamia is Jarmo, settled around 7000 BC and broadly contemporary with Jericho and Çatal Hüyük (Anatolia). It as well as other early Neolithic sites were in north Mesopotamia; later Sumerian settlements in southern Mesopotamia required complicated irrigation methods.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Mesopotamia

As serious as the previous thing in not understanding what is the line of the time and putting everything in a same bag. Also any investigator moderately formed knows that agriculture is the objective base of the civilization. Is a condition Sine qua non. (Sine qua non: "Without which not". It is said of a necessary condition for something. Sometimes the turn is formulated as conditio sine qua non) Also all investigator knows that Jericho and the Natufian is the objective base for it. You not even understand the essential deference between civilization and noncivilization.

You say that these interested in the truth, but the truth is that your commentaries are only pseudoscience and they remember me to Latin investigator on the subject, call Jorge Diaz Sanchez, more known by his nick Georgeos Diaz Montexano, that has specialized in the subject in the last time. The pseudoscience is characterized by the following thing:

1) Construction of irrefutable hypotheses (like its land of Atlantis in the Atlantic, witch as it is not possible to be found, cannot be refuted)

(2) Investigation by exegesis of text (nothing essential, but pure commentaries and irrelevant notes)

(3) Explanation by scenes (you have constructed a general scene on your theory because it says Plato to it, but you do not have specific and concrete data that are true and demonstrable).

(4) Construction of arguments from similarities spurious (you mix pears with grapes, you mix scientific data with mythology or with your own beliefs, etc.)

(5) Belief that the simple quantitative accumulation of evidence compensates the deficiency in quality of the particular evidences. (You have filled these pages with many irrelevant data)

(6) Refusal to put under a fundamental conception and an empirical contrast controlled your beliefs (you refuse to understand that it is science and that it is not it and to accept a scientific methodology to follow)

(7) Deficiency of a mechanism self correction of errors. (You do not accept any scientific solid and verified data, as that there is no an island sunk in the Atlantic or that there was no civilization in America does 11 thousand years)

Also I want that you have left clear as it is my interest to respond your commentaries. I believe that in the free societies everybody have the right to say what we want, including you and I. I respect that idea because it seems to me essential in a free society. Nevertheless, it seems to me essential to distinguish the serious scientific research of pseudoscience.

My objective when responding is to separate the things. To distinguish with clarity that is science and that is ignorance, disinformation and pseudoscience, which damages the work of the investigators who we worried seriously on the subject.

With that, the readers of these pages, formed their own opinion of the subject.

--------------------
 
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« Reply #621 on: December 30, 2007, 02:35:13 pm »

sevens

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Hi Jaime

How are you? I was curious, where do you think Atlantis exists?

Just interested on your thoughts on this subject?
regards
sevens 
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« Reply #622 on: December 30, 2007, 02:37:13 pm »

Desiree

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Jaime,

Save the talking down to people aspect of your commentaries for people not as familiar with your crap as I am. In the first place, you are the pseudo-scientist, you've gotten all the information for your so-called theory from the Bible, hardly an accurate historical document, you haven't even read Plato (or at least understood him), you ignore all the evidence that doesn't support your theory and you persist in this ridiculous that the Greeks and Egyptians mistook Israel, an area thar they traded with, visited and warred with, with Atlantis.

Catal Hoyuk and Jericho were both settlements, not civilizations.

A civilization is classified with the following criteria:

What characterizes civilization

An Egyptian farmer using a plow drawn by domesticated animals, two developments in agriculture that started the Neolithic Revolution and led to the first civilizations.Literally, a civilization is a complex society, as distinguished from a simpler society. Everyone lives in a society and a culture, but not everyone lives in a civilization. Historically, civilizations have shared some or all of the following traits (some of these were suggested by V. Gordon Childe):


Intensive agricultural techniques, such as the use of human power, crop rotation, and irrigation. This has enabled farmers to produce a surplus of food that is not necessary for their own subsistence.
A significant portion of the population that does not devote most of its time to producing food. This permits a division of labor. Those who do not occupy their time in producing food may instead focus their efforts in other fields, such as industry, war, science or religion. This is possible because of the food surplus described above.
The gathering of some of these non-food producers into permanent settlements, called cities.
A form of social organization. This can be a chiefdom, in which the chieftain of one noble family or clan rules the people; or a state society, in which the ruling class is supported by a government or bureaucracy. Political power is concentrated in the cities.
The institutionalized control of food by the ruling class, government or bureaucracy.
The establishment of complex, formal social institutions such as organized religion and education, as opposed to the less formal traditions of other societies.
Development of complex forms of economic exchange. This includes the expansion of trade and may lead to the creation of money and markets.
The accumulation of more material possessions than in simpler societies.
Development of new technologies by people who are not busy producing food. In many early civilizations, metallurgy was an important advancement.
Advanced development of the arts, including writing.

So, what you have in those other communities is agriculture, and that's it.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sumer 3500–2334 BCE
The Mesopotamian civilization of Sumer officially began at around 4000-3500 BCE, and ended at 2334 BCE with the rise of Assyria. It was the world's first civilization. The oldest granary yet found dates back to 9500 BCE and is located in the Jordan Valley. The earliest known settlement in Jericho (9th millennium BCE) in modern-day Israel, was a PPNA culture that eventually gave way to more developed settlements later, which included in one early settlement (8th millennium BCE) mud-brick houses surrounded by a stone wall, having a stone tower built into the wall. In this time there is evidence of domesticated emmer wheat, barley and pulses and hunting of wild animals. However, there are no indications of attempts to form communities (early civilizations) with surrounding peoples. Nevertheless, by the 6th millennium BCE we find what appears to be an ancient shrine and cult, which would likely indicate intercommunal religious practices in this era. Findings include a collective burial (with not all the skeletons completely articulated, jaws removed, faces covered with plaster, cowries used for eyes). Other finds from this era include stone and bone tools, clay figurines and shell and malachite beads. Around 1500 to 1200 BCE Jericho and other cities of Canaan had become vassals of the Egyptian empire.

Several miles southwest of Ur, Eridu was the southernmost of a conglomeration of early temple-cities, in Sumer, southern Mesopotamia, with the earliest of these settlements carbon dating to around 5000 BCE. The Sialk ziggurat of Kashan, Iran, also dates to this era. By the 4th millennium BCE, in Nippur we find, in connection with a sort of ziggurat and shrine, a conduit built of bricks, in the form of an arch. Sumerian inscriptions written on clay also appear in Nippur. By 4000 BCE an ancient city of Susa, in Mesopotamia, seems to emerge from earlier villages. Sumerian cuneiform script dates to no later than about 3500 BCE. Sumer, which was Mesopotamia's first civilization in what is now Iraq, is recognized as the world's earliest civilization. Other villages begin to spring up around this time in the Ancient Near East (Middle East) as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilizations

So, in other words, the experts are all in agreement that civilization began with Sumer, so once again you are proving (by being so loose in your own definition of a civilization), you are proving that you are not a scientist.

In other words, wrong again, Jaimie.
 
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« Reply #623 on: December 30, 2007, 02:38:14 pm »

Desiree

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sevens:
Hi Jaime

How are you? I was curious, where do you think Atlantis exists?

Just interested on your thoughts on this subject?
regards
sevens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can find all Jaime's thoughts here, sevens, enjoy:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541;p=1 
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« Reply #624 on: December 30, 2007, 02:39:39 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sevens:
Hi Jaime

How are you? I was curious, where do you think Atlantis exists?

Just interested on your thoughts on this subject?
regards
sevens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are texts on my theory in different languages, without considering what is in this site, that so gentily specified Desiree. Here I put a list...

www.laatlantida.cl

http://milos.conferences.gr/index.php?id=2826

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Location_hypotheses_of_Atlantis

http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Atlantean

http://www.atlantis-schoppe.de/photos.htm

http://www.phistoria.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=13

http://www.culturaclasica.com/nuntii2005/abril/noticias_mundo_clasico.htm

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/

http://www.pressbox.co.uk/detailed/Science/Recientes_descubriendo_arqueol_gico_confirmar_aspectos_de_la_teor_a_de_chileno_60641.html

http://www.pressbox.co.uk/detailed/Science/Atlantis_was_Israel_33814.html

https://www.heliotopos.net/SSLConf/index.php?id=2851

http://www.lun.com/librerias/prt_em.asp?idnoticia=C384658705870023

http://www.radiojai.com.ar/noticiasDetalle.asp?id_Noticia=15931

http://www.terra.cl/ovnis/index.cfm?id_reg=522324&pagina=entrevistas

http://www.celtiberia.net/articulo.asp?id=1440&cadena=atlantida

http://www.faculty.cl/fcv/showthread.php?t=3353

http://www.apovni.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=374

http://www.jewish-forum.de/showtopic.php?threadid=3444

http://www.mail-archive.com/ufoburn@yahoogrupos.com.br/msg03398.html

http://www.pandorasfiles.com/index.htm

http://literatura.co.il/website/index.asp?id=13071

 
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« Reply #625 on: December 30, 2007, 02:40:33 pm »

sevens

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Wow

thats alot of links.

Thanks but you havent answered my simple question.

Doesnt matter, I was just curious.

all the best
sevens 
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« Reply #626 on: December 30, 2007, 02:41:41 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

You are working with old news. That is the old explanation of ´30 years of Childe. That indicates you, which was extract of Wikipedia, no longer is accepted by many investigators of the subject, such Gimbutas, Mellaart, Diamond, and other investigators who do not follow interpretations, but that create them. Before Sumer, India already had civilization... If you understand like civilization the genesis of the State, like many, we are bad.

There were federal civilized societies previous to the centralized State that we know. But in fact, it does not have sense to discuss with you... Only you repeat those that say others and you disqualify quickly what you do not understand.

You still it even maintains the narrow idea that my work is restricted the Bible... uff.

You do not write and not investigate... It pardons, but I have other priorities of use of my time, so I leave this answer up to here.

 
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« Reply #627 on: December 30, 2007, 02:43:04 pm »

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Jaime and Desiree: There is nothing wrong with using the Old Testament of the Bible in doing archeological research. It is an accurate history; but it can be used only up to a point. In many cases it is not precise enough in its discriptions. I do not think that Jaime is relying solely on Biblical references. I neither agree with nor disagree with either Jaime or Desiree. I learned, long ago, that unpopular theories can often come unexpectedly to the forefront. Only time will tell. Continental Drift is a prime example. I can remember members of the scientific community laughing at that one and referring to it as VooDoo science.
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« Reply #628 on: December 30, 2007, 02:44:14 pm »

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Jaime,

I have yet to see a definition of civilization confined to a place that practiced agriculture alone. If you have one by a scholar (with credentials) by all means, show it to all of us. Mellaart and Gimbutas, interesting as their work might be, are hardly mainstream archaeologists. Both believe the ancient world was controlled by goddess worship. That's not a mainstream idea, it's a New Age idea.

And your own words have said that your primary reference was the Bible!

Brig, the Old Testament is not a reliable history in that archaeology has yet to prove that half of the things depicted in there happened at all, and that it villifies people like the Phoenicians (Cannanites), not to mention it is also a mix of metaphor, mythology and parable. I don't think it was even meant to be taken as a literal history. 
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« Reply #629 on: December 30, 2007, 02:44:56 pm »

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"ATLANTIS-INSULAE"on first face reads:"Isles of the"ATLANTIC"( by implication"Ocean".)but on second-reading it says -quite-litterary:"PALACE-HILL-of-the-Kingdom/LAND-of-AD" The first Misquotation sent 55"Oceanographists searching:"{ Atlantis"UNDER the Sea."

Of all the stupidity. . . Okay mjy statement needs Lots of research but I got Alzheimer's disease and "in the Land of the Blind"the One-Eyee... Etc. What a waste of work, I await your comment SINCERELY your, "BlueHue". 
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