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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7579 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #585 on: December 30, 2007, 01:04:58 pm »

Tom Hebert1
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  posted 05-10-2006 07:29 AM                       
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Let's be honest. The vast majority of individuals think that the notion of Atlantis is one big fantasy.

So, in that sense, we are all in the same boat. 
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« Reply #586 on: December 30, 2007, 01:06:49 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Rate Member   posted 05-10-2006 09:05 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Tom Hebert1:
Let's be honest. The vast majority of individuals think that the notion of Atlantis is one big fantasy. So, in that sense, we are all in the same boat.
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I agree with you who the majority thinks that, but is a great error. Atlantis were a real fact and underneath its history is the beginning of the civilization. Here I am going to very recently add data of a study published on the origin of bull - key animal of the myth - and the Spanish ass, that they indicate when and from where came the colonization from that peninsula by peoples agriculturists and cattle dealers. And it is that place is not the mysterious center of the Atlantic or America.


quote:
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AGRICULTURAL SCIENCES
Prehistoric contacts over the Straits of Gibraltar indicated by genetic analysis of Iberian Bronze Age cattle

Cecilia Anderung , Abigail Bouwman , Per Persson , José Miguel Carretero , Ana Isabel Ortega , Rengert Elburg , Colin Smith, Juan Luis Arsuaga, Hans Ellegren, and Anders Götherström.

Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University, Norbyvägen 18D, SE-752 36 Uppsala, Sweden;
Faculty of Life Sciences, Jackson's Mill, University of Manchester, Manchester M60 1QD, United Kingdom;
Department of Archaeology, Gothenburg University, Box 200, SE-405 30 Gothenburg, Sweden;
Laboratorio de Evolución Humana, Departamento de Ciencias Históricas y Geografía, Universidad de Burgos, Edificio I+D+i, Plaza Misael de Bañuelos s/n, 09001 Burgos, Spain;
I/O-Graph Germany, Buchenstrasse 3, D-01097 Dresden, Germany; ||Museo Nacional de Ciencias Naturales, C/Jose Gutierrez Abascal, 2, 28006 Madrid, Spain;
Centro Universidad Complutense de Madrid-Instituto de Salud Carlos III de Evolución y Comportamiento Humanos, C/Sinesio Delgado, 4, Pabellón 14, 28029 Madrid, Spain.

Contributed by Juan Luis Arsuaga, April 25, 2005

The geographic situation of the Iberian Peninsula makes it a natural link between Europe and North Africa. However, it is a matter of debate to what extent African influences via the Straits Gibraltar have affected Iberia's prehistoric development. Because early African pastoralist communities were dedicated to cattle breeding, a possible means to detect prehistoric African–Iberian contacts might be to analyze the origin of cattle breeds on the Iberian Peninsula. Some contemporary Iberian cattle breeds show a mtDNA haplotype, T1, that is characteristic to African breeds, generally explained as being the result of the Muslim expansion of the 8th century A.D., and of modern imports. To test a possible earlier African influence, we analyzed mtDNA of Bronze Age cattle from the Portalón cave at the Atapuerca site in northern Spain. Although the majority of samples showed the haplotype T3 that dominates among European breeds of today, the T1 haplotype was found in one specimen radiocarbon dated 1800 calibrated years B.C. Accepting T1 as being of African origin, this result indicates prehistoric African–Iberian contacts and lends support to archaeological finds linking early African and Iberian cultures. We also found a wild ox haplotype in the Iberian Bronze Age sample, reflecting local hybridization or backcrossing or that aurochs were hunted by these farming cultures.

ancient DNA | aurochs | Iberian cattle | mithochondrial DNA | Africa

Author contributions: A.G. designed research; C.A., A.B., C.S., and A.G. performed research; J.M.C., A.I.O., R.E., J.L.A., H.E., and A.G. contributed new reagents/analytic tools; C.A., P.P., C.S., J.L.A., H.E., and A.G. analyzed data; and C.A. wrote the paper.
Abbreviation: cal, calibrated years.
Data deposition: The sequences reported in this paper have been deposited in the GenBank database (accession nos. AY847188–AY847219).
To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: anders.gotherstrom@ebc.uu.se .
© 2005 by The National Academy of Sciences of the USA
This article has been cited by other articles in HighWire Press-hosted journals: (Search Google Scholar for Other Citing Articles)

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 La Vanguardia´ publishes that the brave bull "is son of immigration"
09.05.06

Filed in Miscelánea (PD/Agencias).

The brave bull is not in fact of Spanish origin, but that descends from head of cattle that arrived by sea from Africa and which they were crossed animals coming from the bovines east of Europe and wild, according to an international equipment of genetist that has reconstructed the history of the European cattle.

Josep Corbella writes in the Vanguard that the Catalan ass also has an African origin: he descends from asses domesticated in Africa, probably in some place between Somalia and Egypt, according to have demonstrated investigators of the same equipment.

The investigators in the Proceedings magazine, of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, that presented its results yesterday, write: "the domestication of the cattle from the wild uros was an important step in the history of the humanity, that took to deep changes in the diet, the behavior and the socioeconomic structure of many populations".

It was domesticated at least twice

Archaeological studies indicate that the bovines ones were domesticated at least twice, the one in Middle East and other in the valley of the Hindu, and who the domestication began about 11,000 years ago. The little genetic data available until now made think that the present European cattle descend from the head of cattle domesticated in Middle East, that extended by the continent throughout the Neolithic one. But the genetic analysis of five uros that lived between ago 7,000 and 17,000 years, discovered recently in Italy, next to the analysis of more than thousand present head of cattle, demonstrates now that history was not so simple. The first unexpected result of the investigation is that the animals "coming from Middle East crossed themselves native uros", declared yesterday Carles Lalueza, biologist of the Universitat of Barcelona and coauthor of the work.

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« Reply #587 on: December 30, 2007, 01:07:46 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 05-10-2006 11:48 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Tom Hebert1:
Fascinating account! So do you suppose Jules Verne was psychic?
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Hi Tom, actually the Sargasso Sea was known in Verne's time, but the really exciting thing is that it was more than likely known in Plato's time as well! Quoting Andrew Collins:


quote:
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There is, however, overwhelming evidence of the presence among the Olmec peoples of Mexico of at three different racial types, including oriental mongoloids, black Africans and Semitic or eastern Mediterranean individuals. There are found as statues, bas-reliefs and carved ceramic heads. The famous Olmec heads are a prime example of the presence in Mexico of foreign individuals who would appear, from the manner in which they are represented, to have held great status at centres such as La Venta, Tres Zapotes and San Lorenzo. Since no other racial type was depicted in this manner, it seems likely that they were representations of either great leaders or revered ancestors. Since black African skulls have repeatedly been unearthed in Olmec cemeteries, there is every reason to believe that they constitute evidence of transoceanic contact between West Africa and the lands beyond the Gulf of Mexico, and this is aside from the overwhelming evidence of transpacific contact. Moreover, the presence at various sites of reliefs which show individuals with clear Semitic features, complete with long faces, bushy moustaches and pointed beards, seems to suggest contact with Mediterranean seafarers as early as 1200-1000 BC.


So who were these ancient voyagers? All the indications are that they were either Phoenicians using Spanish ports such as Gades or Tartessos or Carthaginians out of the port of Carthage on the Mediterranean coast of North Africa, Mogador on the Atlantic coast of Morocco and Cerne Island, an unidentified Atlantic island off the coast of West Africa. An account of a journey into the Western Ocean by a fifth-century BC Carthaginian sea-captain and general named Himilco recorded by Rufus Festus Avienus in the third-century speaks of his vessel encountering a vast expanse of seaweed, calm seas and mud shoals. Apparently, it could not be crossed in four months. There is every reason to conclude that this is a reference to the Sargasso Sea, the vast expanse of seaweed and calm waters which stretches between the Azores in the east and the Bahamas in the west. Due to the presence of the seaweed, Himilco came to believe that the waters thereabouts were shallow. Other early writers, such as Plato, Aristotle and pseudo-Scylax also allude to this impassable, or shallow, sea of mud, shoals and calm which existed in the Western Ocean. There are also a number of accounts of mythical islands reached either by accident or design by Iberic Phoenician and Carthaginian seafarers. With names such as the Isles of the Blest, the Fortunate Isles, the Elysium Fields and the Purpurariae, they are likely to refer to archipelagos on the eastern Atlantic seaboard including the Canary Isles, the Madeiras and the Azores. However, other classical writers speak of islands with indigenous inhabitants and navigable rivers which are not found in this part of the ocean. These seem to refer to islands much farther away, plausibly among the Greater Antilles.


Moreover, the Roman writer Pliny the Elder tells us that a geographer named Statius Sebosus recorded that it was 40 days' sail between the Gorgades, the ancient name for the Cape Verde islands, and the legendary island group known as the Hesperides which lay in the Western Ocean. Although there are certain linguistic difficulties with respect to what Pliny has to say on this matter, I have found a completely separate source for this same statement. In the knowledge that it took Christopher Columbus 33 days to journey between the Cape Verde Islands and Barbados in the Lesser Antilles on his third voyage to the New World, I propose that Statius Sebosus accurately recorded the journey time to the West Indies as early as 100 BC. If this is correct, it means that transatlantic journeys must have occurred either during or prior to his age. Most probably this knowledge came from Carthaginian sources. However, the discovery of Roman wrecks off the coast of Brazil and Honduras suggest that the Romans also learnt of this lucrative trading market and may well have exploited it for their own purposes and, like the Phoenicians and Carthaginians before them, did so in complete secrecy.


Since there is no **** evidence to show that the Egyptians themselves ever made transatlantic or transpacific journeys, I propose that it was the Phoenicians, and later the Carthaginians, who were trading with Central American cultures. Among the commodities they brought back to the ancient world were tobacco and coca. If the coca did not derive from plant species native to Central America, then it was traded north by one the Peruvian cultures, most probably the Chavín. The Phoenicians, I consider, then traded these substances on to the Egyptians, with whom the Phoenicians had a close connection. I also propose that through the Phoenicians' contact with cultures who used tobacco, they copied the process of smoke inhalation as early as 1200 BC (although not necessarily with tobacco leaves). This is evidenced from the discovery at various sites in northern Syria of pipe bowls that might well have been used for this purpose. The earliest pipe bowl found in the Americas comes from Marajo Island in the mouth of the Rio Amazon and dates to c. 1500 BC.
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http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/conference/qc99/andrewcollins.htm 
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« Reply #588 on: December 30, 2007, 01:08:44 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 05-10-2006 11:54 PM                       
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Sargasso Sea

The sea is an elongated region in the middle of the North Atlantic, and is surrounded by ocean currents. On the west it is bounded by the Gulf Stream; on the north, it is bounded by the North Atlantic Current; on the east, it is bounded by the Canary Current; and on the south, it is bounded by the North Atlantic Equatorial Current. It is, very roughly, 700 statute miles wide and 2,000 statute miles long (1,100 km wide and 3,200 km long). It stretches from roughly 70 degrees west to 40 degrees west, and from 25 degrees north to 35 degrees north. Bermuda is located near the western fringes of the sea.

The Sargasso Sea, which is very salty, is often regarded as being lifeless, though it is home to some seaweed of the genus Sargassum. This seaweed floats en masse on the surface there. The Sargasso Sea also plays a major role in the migration of the European eel; the larvae of the eel hatch there and go to Europe. Later in life, they try to return to the Sargasso to lay eggs there.

Portuguese sailors were among the first to discover this region in the 15th century. Christopher Columbus and his men also noted the Sargasso Sea. They brought reports of the large amount of seaweed on the surface. The Carthaginian admiral Himilco had earlier made similar reports after sailing through the Pillars of Hercules: "Many seaweeds grow in the troughs between the waves, which slow the ship like bushes {...} Here the beasts of the sea move slowly hither and thither, and great monsters swim languidly among the sluggishly creeping ships" (Rufus Festus Avienus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargasso_Sea 
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« Reply #589 on: December 30, 2007, 01:10:05 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 05-11-2006 12:10 AM                       
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This is really cool! Actually Himilco performed his journey through the Sargasso Sea in the sixth century bc. Not only is that yet another proof of ancient sea travel, but it is more proof that the Greeks knew their geography and that the Atlantis account is just what it seems to be.

Here is more about Himilco:


Himilco, Phoenician Voyager to Northewestern Shores of Europe

Himilco:
Carthaginian voyager, the first known sailor from the Mediterranean to reach the northwestern shores of Europe. He wrote a story about his adventures, which is now lost. It is quoted, however, by Roman authors, and we are therefore able to reconstruct his travels.

The name 'Himilco' is Latin; it renders the Phoenician name Chimilkât, which means 'my brother is milkât' - but it is unclear to us what a milkât was.


Pliny on Himilco

The oldest available source on Himilco's voyage is Natural history by the Roman scientist Pliny the Elder (23-79 A.D.). He writes:

When the power of Carthage flourished, Hanno sailed round from Cádiz to the extremity of Arabia, and published a memoir of his voyage of his voyage, as did Himilco when he was dispatched at the same date to explore the outer coasts of Europe. (Pliny the Elder, Natural history 2.169a)

These words make Himilco a contemporary of Hanno; this great discoverer probably lived in the sixth century, because one of the towns he founded Oualiddia is mentioned by a Greek author who lived c.500 B.C. (click here). If Pliny is right, Himilco lived in the sixth century, but it should be stressed that 'when the power of Carthage flourished' is extremely vague and can indicate anything between c.800 and c.250.

However, it seems that Pliny can be relied on when he states that Himilco's aim was 'to explore the outer coasts of Europe'. A later author, the Roman aristocrat Rufus Festus Avienus (c.350 A.D. - almost thousand years after Himilco), quotes Himilco's narrative several times when he describes the Atlantic coast in his poem The sea shore. This corroborates Pliny's words, although it remains possible that Himilco's report included descriptions of other parts of the world as well.

Trade in the sixth century

Himilco was not the first to sail on the northern Atlantic ocean. Avienus reports that the Tartessians -native iron age Andalusians- visited the Oestrumnidan isles to trade with the inhabitants; later, Carthaginian tradesmen traveled along the same route (Sea shore 113-115). Avienus offers several clues to locate the Oestrumnides: they were at two days' sailing distance from Ireland, and they were rich in the mining of tin and lead. A vigorous tribe lives here, proud spirited, energetic and skillful. On all the ridges trade is carried on.This makes it possible to identify the Oestrumnidan isles with Cornwall, the Scilly islands or Brittany. It is difficult to choose between these three possibilities. Cornwall is rich in metal, but cannot be regarded as an archipelago; the Scilly's are a group of islands, but there were no mines. The most likely candidate is Brittany: Avienus states that the region beyond the Oestrumnides is the country of the Celts. In ancient literature, the word 'Celt' is never used to describe the inhabitants of the British isles; on the other hand, the people of modern France are often called Celtic. (That many modern Irishmen, Welshmen and Scots call themselves Celts, has to do with their native languages, which are related to the language spoken by the ancient Gauls.)

Whatever the precise location of the Oestrumnidan isles, it is certain that the native Andalusians (the 'Tartessians') traded with the inhabitants of Brittany, Cornwall, Wales and Ireland. Much of this trade must have been indirect, but it is certain that there was commerce. Archaeologists have discovered that during the second millennium (the 'bronze age'), tin was brought to Andalusia in increasing quantities. Along Europe's Atlantic fringe, there were close cultural contacts and it is probable that Tartessian tradesmen could communicate with people in the far north.

Phoenician interest in the Atlantic tin trade may have started as early as the eleventh century B.C.: according to several Greek, Roman and Jewish authors, modern Cádiz was founded c.1100. Up till now, archaeologists have not been able to verify or refute this ancient tradition. There is more evidence for the period after c.800, when the Phoenicians founded Carthage and several colonies on the Costa del Sol (a.o., Malaga).

Himilco was, therefore, not sailing into foreign waters: he knew what he was looking for (tin and other metals) and knew where to find it. If his expedition took place in the sixth century, it is also possible to understand why he decided to go north. It seems that the Phoenicians and Tartessians had become enemies at the end of the seventh century, and it is certain that the Phoenician world was shocked by he conquest of the mother country (modern Lebanon) in 587 B.C. by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar. Carthage established itself as the new capital of an informal empire of Phoenician colonies. That a Carthaginian admiral explored the territories beyond Cádiz is not surprising.

In the sixth century, we also find Greek sailors in the west; Marseille is their most famous colony. They and the Carthaginians were usually hostile towards each other; the Carthaginians considered Andalusia, Corsica, and Sardinia as their backyard and drowned everybody venturing west of Sicily. When Himilco published his account, he did everything to describe his voyage as one of hardship and trouble: it discouraged the Greeks from going west and had the additional benefit that his own exploits were more impressive.

Avienus on Himilco

Three times Avienus quotes Himilco (Sea shores 114-129, 380-389, 404-415). Although the Roman author claims to have read the Carthaginian account himself (SS 414), this is probably not true.

In the first of the three 'Himilco blocks' in The sea shores, Avienus states that Himilco wrote that it took four months to reach the Oestrumnides (SS 117). Even when we assume that these isles were the Scilly islands, four month is too long. Himilco must have landed at many ports; perhaps he founded colonies - Hanno did the same. (If so, these colonies were not very successful: not trace has been found.)

Avienus goes on to say that the sea route was difficult: on large parts of the route, there was no wind (SS 120). Seaweed made progress difficult (SS 122); this may refer to Cabo de San Vicente in the southwest of modern Portugal, where weeds gather in the summer. Avienus also mentions sand bars (SS 125-6) and sea monsters (SS 128-9).

In SS 380-389, Avienus repeats what he has said: he mentions the Ocean's vastness and the absence of wind. The only new element is fog, which Himilco can have encountered everywhere. The third Himilco block (SS 404-415) is again repetition: shallow waters, weeds, and monsters.

As we have already seen, it is likely that Himilco exaggerated the troubles he encountered, because he wanted to boast of his own exploits and scare off the Greek competitors.

We may speculate that Himilco also visited Helgoland. This was the place where the ancients found amber and it may have been a goal of Himilco's expedition. Avienus does not mention a northern voyage, but this silence does not prove that Himilco did not visit the North sea - Avienus is interested in the Atlantic ocean, not in the neighboring seas. A hypothetical visit of Himilco to Helgoland would help explain why several sixth-century Greek authors start to speculate about a legendary amber river, which they call Eridanus.

Article by Jona Lendering

http://phoenicia.org/himilco.html

You'll notice that this author attributes the seaweed to an area of Portugal, but that is because mainstream science has always been resistan to the idea of trans-Atlantic travel so early. The rest of us who aren't so narrow-minded know better. 
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« Reply #590 on: December 30, 2007, 01:11:04 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 05-11-2006 12:19 AM                       
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Atlantic Islands

For many of the early civilizations, such as the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians, the world revolved around the Mediterranean Ocean, and the Atlantic Ocean was a complete unknown. Many believed that beyond the Straits of Gibraltar was a vast river that circled the earth. The Greek poet Avienus describes a journey by Himilco: "No breeze drives the ship forward, so dead is the sluggish wind of this idle sea. Himilco also adds that there is much seaweed among the waves, and that it often holds ships back like bushes. Nevertheless, he says that the sea has no great depth, and that the surface of the earth is barely covered by a little water. The monsters of the sea move continually hither and thither, and the wild beasts swim among the sluggish and slowly creeping ships."

The Arabs called the Atlantic "The Sea of Gloom" or "The Sea of Darkness." In the 11th century, geographer al-Biruni wrote: "No seafaring is done on this sea, for the air is dark, the water is thick, the navigable channels in confusion, and here there are many ways of losing oneself." Some Arabian geographers represented the Hand of Satan as rising from this sea, which would grab and destroy the mariner's ships.



One of the first recorded journeys was by Pytheas of Massalia, who sailed to England in about 330 B.C. from his Greek colony in what is now Marseilles, France (although he probably traveled over land to the port of Corbilo and sailed from there.) He wrote about his voyage in a book called About the Ocean of which no copies exist, but he is quoted in other works. Pytheas visited Britain where tin was traded, and possibly Ireland, the Hebrides, the Orkneys, and Thule.

Early navigation of the Atlantic was extremely difficult for small sailing ships. The weather can be very rough, and sailors who relied on the sun and the stars to navigate might not be able to get a clear view of the sky for days. Although sailors could generally get their latitude (North/South position measured by the horizontal lines on the map) with reasonable accuracy, it was not until the late 1700's that a clock was designed that was able to measure time accurately enough to calculate longitude (East/West position measured by the vertical lines on the map.) Other factors also made early navigation difficult- a poor understanding of ocean currents, and the Sargasso Sea which is seaweed that can slow down small ships.

Exploration of the Northern Atlantic was even more difficult. Ice and slush could make travel slow and laborious. Pliny refers to this frozen ocean as one day's sail from Thule, sometimes called the Cronian Sea. Many maps of the 1500's referred to the area north of 70 degrees latitude as "Mare Congelatii" (the Frozen Sea.) In addition, compasses became less reliable, as the difference between magnetic north and true north became more distorted. In the story of Saint Brendan's travels, he encounters both a "Coagulated Sea" and a "Crystal Pillar" in the ocean.


http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/Places/atlantic_islands.htm 
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« Reply #591 on: December 30, 2007, 01:13:49 pm »

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   posted 05-11-2006 12:23 AM                       
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Saint Brendan's Island


Saint Brendan was a real person who was born in Ireland around the year 489. He was ordained in 512 and traveled extensively, as far as the Hebrides, Orkneys, and the Faroe Islands. He died in 577, and about 200 years after his death a book titled Navigatio Sancti Brendani Abbatis appeared, describing his travels. This book was widely copied and translated until the 1400's.

In the book, Saint Brendan is told about the "Promised Land of the Saints" by another saint who has been there, Saint Barrind. Saint Brendan and more than a dozen monks set sail to find this island. They travel for 7 years, encountering many things such as a griffin and a devil-whale. Finally they find the island, which is an earthly paradise, but they have to return home. They return with fruit and precious stones from the island. The story of Saint Brendan was much exaggerated to provide allegorical lessons, much in the same way the Physiologus was. Despite this, some of the places that he visited seem to correspond with actual locations.

On maps, Saint Brendan's Island first appeared on the Ebstorf map of 1235, in a location where the Canary Islands are. Other early maps confused the location with the Madeira Islands or the Azores. As this region became explored and mapped, Saint Brendan's Island seemed to move northward, to regions that were not as well known. It appeared on maps up into the early 1800's.

Honorius of Atun called it the Lost Isle in his 1130 book on geography, saying "There is in the Ocean a certain isle agreeable and fertile above all others, unknown to men but discovered by chance and then sought for without anyone being able to find it again and so called the "Lost Isle." It was, so they say, the island whither once upon a time St. Brandan came."


http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/Places/saint_brendan.htm

Exciting stuff! Just which island did Saint Brendan actually discover..? 
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« Reply #592 on: December 30, 2007, 01:15:03 pm »

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People of the Sea
From Mesolithic times, western European peoples were united above all by one thing: access to the sea. Barry Cunliffe explains

In 1934 the trawler Muroto, working out of Cardiff, dredged up a 2nd century AD Roman pot while fishing on the Porcupine Bank 250km west of the west coast of Ireland. What the find means we can only guess. Most likely it was lost overboard from a Roman trading vessel blown widely off course, but the possibility remains that it came from a more adventurous voyage of exploration - a failure perhaps about which history is silent.

More than 600 years earlier, a Carthaginian, Himilco, had sailed out of the Mediterranean deep into the Atlantic. After months at sea he found only sluggish, windless waters and clogging seaweed - he may possibly have reached the Sargasso Sea with its tangle of weed and the Doldrums beyond the Trade Winds - but he returned to tell the tale. Both ships' masters will have shared in common the belief that the Ocean was endless but that if they continued sailing west they might encounter islands famous in mythology but unknown in reality.

Our unnamed Roman captain may also have been aware of the hypothesis, common since the 2nd century BC, that the earth was a sphere and therefore it would, at least in theory, have been possible to reach the eastern shores of Asia by sailing west from Europe. But whatever their cognitive geography, the Ocean was a dangerous place to be avoided if possible - except for the coastal corridor, which allowed rapid and often easy communication around the arc of Ocean-facing Europe.

The importance of the Atlantic seaways to the development of European society has not always been fully appreciated. A hundred years ago when the Oxford geographer HJ Mackinder published Britain and the British Seas he presented the Ocean as a barrier to human communication. Yet ten years later one of the students of the same department, OGS Crawford, argued instead for the importance of the Atlantic seaways in the distribution of Early Bronze Age artefacts in the west of Britain.

Crawford's 1912 paper in Geographical Journal was a beginning to be followed over the next 60 years by a gallery of famous names - HJ Fleure, ET Leeds, Cyril Fox, Gordon Childe, Glyn Daniel and EG Bowen - all writing from different viewpoints but all convinced of the vital role played by the Ocean fringe in cultural transmissions.
Taking to the sea
Bowen's book Britain and the Western Seaways published in 1972 marked the culmination of this movement, but it came at a time when the mild geographical determinism it proclaimed (ie, that people's lifestyles were determined to some extent by where they lived) was deeply unpopular and archaeological minds were pursuing other fancies. Now 30 years on there is a new awareness of the vital importance of the varied resources which coastal communities commanded - and of the mobility offered by the sea.

At what stage people first began to take to the sea is difficult to say. The earliest log boat at present known comes from the Netherlands and dates to around 7000 BC, placing it firmly in the Mesolithic period. But there is some doubt as to whether craft of this kind could make long journeys on the open sea unless, of course, freeboard (the vertical distance between waterline and deck) was increased by attaching planks, and a greater stability introduced with outriggers or some such device.

This said, Grahame Clark put forward a convincing case some years ago arguing that Mesolithic coastal communities regularly made sea journeys in pursuit of shoals of fish like cod and hake. This kind of maritime mobility was after all little different from the terrestrial mobility of hunter-gatherers in following the herds of migrating animals. Both activities required navigational skills and it could well be argued that it was in the Upper Palaeolithic-Mesolithic period that communities learnt to use celestial phenomena to chart their courses and become aware of the different qualities of the prevailing winds, cloud formations and even wind-borne smells, in building up cognitive maps to enable them to travel more safely through their wider worlds. Indeed, it is only by assuming that sea travel created considerable mobility along the Atlantic seaways that the remarkable similarities in Mesolithic culture across this zone can be easily explained.

Our knowledge of the vessels in use in the prehistoric period is still uncomfortably slight. The log boat tradition, once established in the Mesolithic period, continued well into the Middle Ages. By the Iron Age, it had already reached heights of technical sophistication never to be surpassed, as the Hasholme boat of about 300 BC vividly demonstrates. This massive structure, nearly 13m long and 1.4m broad, was fashioned out of a single oak.

By this time, however, a far more complex plank-built tradition was established - and was already ancient. The earliest of these vessels, the justly famous North Ferriby boat, has recently been dated to about 1900 BC (see News). Others, from Caldicot, Dover and Brigg, show that the tradition was widespread in the British Isles at least until 800 BC. A few centuries later Caesar was describing the sturdy ocean-going ships of the Veneti of Armorica, massively constructed with thick nailed planks, high prowed, and square rigged with sails of rawhide to withstand the Atlantic gales. These vessels lie within a long-lived tradition of north-west Atlantic shipbuilding better known from actual Roman examples.

A third tradition of Atlantic shipbuilding involved light-framed vessels covered with hides. The earliest reference to these is in a Roman poem, Ora Maritima, in a section thought to be quoting from a 6th century BC document describing the ocean-going vessels of north-western Iberia. Hide boats carrying tin from Britain to Gaul are mentioned by Pliny (1st century AD), using earlier sources, and in the currachs of western Ireland we see the same tradition still in use even today.

No hide boat has yet been found but the famous gold model from Broighter, Co. Derry, of a square-rigged vessel with provision for seven rowers and a steersman manning a steering oar to the rear quarter, may well represent just such a vessel from the 1st century BC.

Although reliable evidence of the shipping that plied the Atlantic seaways in the prehistoric period is sparse it is quite clear from the few scraps we have, and from the copious archaeological evidence of contact between maritime countries, that the technical skills of the people, both in shipbuilding and navigation, must have been sufficiently advanced, even at a very early date, to allow voyages in the open sea to have been a normal part of life. We have, I believe, a tendency seriously to underestimate the abilities of our distant ancestors.

Spread of ideas
If we accept that networks of maritime communication along the entire Atlantic façade had developed during the Mesolithic period, then it is easier to understand how the cultural traits of agro-pastoralism, which characterized the subsequent Neolithic way of life, quickly spread from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic coast of Portugal and from Continental Europe to the British Isles and Ireland.

It is easier, too, to understand the 'megalithic phenomenon' of the Neolithic which has featured large in archaeological writing over the past century or so. Since Colin Renfrew's devastating critique of the Mediterranean-centred view of 'megalithic origins' in the 1960s, and the publication of an increasing number of reliable radiocarbon dates for megalithic tombs along the Atlantic, the awareness has grown that during the 4th millennium BC there developed a belief system, shared from Portugal to Shetland, that involved the construction of megalithic collective tombs and the use, in ritual contexts, of a highly distinctive art.

There is also clear evidence of a deep understanding of celestial phenomena and the determination, in some areas, to align structures to 'capture' them. The great Neolithic tomb of Maes Howe in Orkney, for example, is so built that the setting midwinter sun shines straight down the passage to light the back wall of the chamber.

No one, nowadays, would wish to conjure up visions of 'megalithic missionaries' driven by religious ardour to spread the word among the benighted communities of the Atlantic littoral. It is, however, clear that the concepts behind the belief system originated somewhere along the Atlantic coast, quite possibly in north-western France, in the 5th millennium, and quickly spread along the existing networks of communication to be adopted into local belief systems all along the Atlantic façade. The passage graves of the Tagus region, Brittany, Ireland and Orkney are local manifestations of a knowledge stream that included beliefs and rituals, technical skills of construction, common 'decorative' motifs, and a shared cosmology.

Exactly how these networks of communication worked it is difficult to say but we may suppose that the coastal communities were bound to neighbouring, or sometimes quite distant, peoples in complex socio-economic systems which involved patterns of travel at prescribed times, the ceremonial exchange of gifts, and other economic exchanges that could reasonably be called trade.

The best known example of this from recent times is the Kula Ring, which bound groups of island peoples in the Pacific in cycles of contact governed by complex rules well-understood by all the participants. Some such system would explain how the Atlantic coastal communities interacted and how information, in its broadest sense, came to be shared over considerable distances.

The high point of the megalithic phenomenon came about 3000 BC. Thereafter new factors began to enter into the equation - the most important being an increased demand for raw materials. In some of these the Atlantic zone was particularly well endowed.

By the end of the 3rd millennium tin, copper and gold were being extracted in considerable quantities and distributed through existing networks as well as along new axes of contact extending deep into mainland Europe along the major river valleys. Other items such as daggers made from honey-coloured 'Grand Pressigny' flint from the Loire valley and amber from the North Sea coast of Jutland were also entering the exchange networks.

By this time new belief systems were spreading throughout much of western and central Europe, most readily recognizable in a characteristic burial rite involving single inhumation usually accompanied by a set of artefacts including a beaker-like pot. The rapid spread of this 'Beaker culture', as it used to be called, is probably best explained simply in terms of a new belief system spreading very quickly along the long-established channels of trade and communication. One of these was, of course, the Atlantic seaways along which the concepts of the 'Beaker package' were widely disseminated and locally interpreted from Portugal to Scotland.

Growth of trade
By the end of the 2nd millennium (ie, in the middle of the Late Bronze Age) trade in bronze, and no doubt a wide range of other commodities less visible in the archaeological record, seems to have intensified with each of the coastal regions feeding its own distinctive produce into the flow. Amid the confusing variety of implements and weapons found in the maritime region, certain items of élite gear stand out as common to most areas. Circular shields, long swords and spears were the normal equipment of the warrior but so too were cauldrons, hooks for clawing the hunks of meat out of the stew, and spits for roasting the joint over the fire. These were items appropriate to the feast which would have formed the focus of gatherings hosted by society's leaders.

What the distribution of artefacts shows is that these same social values were adopted throughout the Atlantic zone. Had a warrior from the Algarve sailed to Aberdeenshire he would have found much in local behaviour and equipment that was very familiar.

Until about 800 BC it is highly probable that the Mediterranean and the Atlantic remained largely separate oceans, though there must have been some shipping movements between them, but after about 800 BC all this changed. The occasion was the establishment of a port-of-trade on the islands of Gadir (Roman Gades, modern Cadiz) by Phoenician traders from the ports of Tyre and Sidon on the coast of what is now Lebanon. The initial impetus for this remarkable commercial adventure was the Assyrian demand for large quantities of silver which the Phoenician middle-men obtained for them from the metal-rich region of south-western Iberia.

Gadir was admirably sited to exploit the trading opportunities of the region and once established the traders could venture further, down the African coast to acquire gold and ivory and along the Atlantic shores of Iberia where copper, gold and tin were to be had. The curious, ornate sailing ships of the Phoenicians were soon to become a familiar sight as they explored the Atlantic coastlines beyond the Pillars of Hercules.

Once the Straits were opened up to Mediterranean shipping Gadir became a focus for more adventurous expeditions. Some time in the 5th century the Carthaginian Himilco sailed into the Atlantic but claims to have found nothing after three months' sailing. Later another Carthaginian, Hanno, pushed south along the African coast possibly as far as Cameroon. Both were courageous voyages, but were only the best published of the many that were surely made.

The end of the 4th century saw another remarkable journey - that of Pytheas of Massalia (now Marseille). He probably travelled overland along the Aude - Carcassonne Gap - Garonne - Gironde route to the Atlantic, and then sailed on local shipping to explore the sources of British tin and Jutish amber. In doing so he seems to have circumnavigated Britain and may even have got to Iceland. Returning safely to Massalia, he wrote a book On the Ocean which became quite widely known in the Mediterranean for its strange tales of the mysterious Ocean peoples.

Increasing knowledge of the Atlantic sea routes in the Hellenistic, and later the Roman, world seems to have had little effect on local shipping other than bringing the coasts of Africa and Iberia firmly into the sphere of Mediterranean influence. The north-west, from Armorica northwards, continued much as before and it was probably along the traditional seaways that items of Late Iron Age 'La Tène' art were introduced to Britain and Ireland, there to be copied by innovative local craftsmen intent on introducing their own interpretations and improvements.

Roman interlude
The Roman conquest of the West - first Iberia and later Gaul and Britain - brought major changes to the social and economic dynamics of the Atlantic zone. Maritime traffic, of course, continued as a number of shipwrecks bear witness: a vessel carrying Italian wine lost off the southern coast of Armorica, one carrying British lead wrecked on Les Septs Iles off Armorica's north coast, and a vessel with blocks of pitch from western France catching fire and sinking in the harbour of St Peter Port, Guernsey.

But now, with a new system of roads in place and an unaccustomed peace imposed over the recently-conquered Provinces, land transport, by road and river, began to play a dominant role. It was only with the end of the Roman interlude in the 5th century AD that the old sea routes began to come into their own again.

The millennium from AD 500-1500 saw the communities of the Atlantic façade re-establish themselves once more as a dominant force in European development. At the beginning the flow of goods was comparatively meagre, but by the end of the Middle Ages the volume and range of goods moved by sea were enormous, including wine, wool, linen, salt fish, dried fruits and pilgrims - the cargoes offered unlimited variety.

It was familiarity with the Ocean and a technical competence to master it, born of many millennia of tradition, that ensured the readiness of the ships' masters of Spain, Portugal, France and Britain and later Holland to face the Ocean as global explorers - and as the instruments of colonization when at last the challenge came.

Barry Cunliffe is Professor of European Archaeology at Oxford University. His books, 'Facing the Ocean' (OUP, £25.00) and 'The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek' (Penguin, £12.99) were both published last year. All images, copyright as credited, are taken from 'Facing the Ocean'

http://www.britarch.ac.uk/BA/ba63/feat2.shtml 
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« Reply #593 on: December 30, 2007, 01:15:50 pm »

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The Pillars of Hercules are often thought of as Gates; one set lies at the mouth of the Mediterranean, while the location of the other set is lost to history. The Gate of Horns is depicted as two simple columns on Mesopotamian cylinder seals; "pillars" and "gates" are therefore about the same. The Muddy Sea mentioned by Aristotle was a shallow, submerged plateau to the southwest of the Pillars of Hercules. The Carthaginian admiral Himilco, sent to explore the area in 509 B.C., reported "Many seaweeds grow in the troughs between the waves, which slow the ship like bushes . . . Here the beasts of the sea move slowly hither and thither, and great monsters swim languidly among the sluggishly creeping ships" [Rufus Festus Avienus, Description of the World]. In other words, this area greatly resembles the Sargasso Sea of Atlantic lore.

http://www.geocities.com/laxaria/gates02.html

Anyway, to sum up, both the Greeks and the Egyptians knew (from the Phoenicians & Himilco) about the Sargasso Sea before the time of Plato. Maybe the Olmecs came from some Phoenician colony on the coast of Africa. This would also mean there is no mistaking Plato's outer continent: it would have to be America! Plato's geography is just like it seems.

I'm going to do some more checking into the Sargasso Sea, it might have some more interesting answers. 
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« Reply #594 on: December 30, 2007, 01:16:53 pm »

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Did Earliest Americans cross the Atlantic?

Archaeologist says Va. bolsters claim on how people got to America

BY A.J. HOSTETLER
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER May 11, 2006


The Smithsonian archaeologist pursuing the contentious claim that ancient Europeans fleeing the Ice Age settled in America says artifacts unearthed in the Chesapeake Bay region support his theory.

Smithsonian Institution curator of archaeology Dennis Stanford argues that about 18,000 years ago, Solutrean hunters from the coasts of France, Spain and Portugal followed seals and other marine mammals for their fur, food and fuel across a partially frozen north Atlantic Ocean to the New World.

"Through such activities they ended up . . . along the exposed continental shelf of North America discovering a new land," he and colleague Bruce Bradley write.

Theory disputed
Numerous scientists vigorously dispute the "Solutrean Solution" theory, saying Stanford lacks physical evidence, even as the notion that Stone Age humans arrived in the Americas in a massive colonizing wave across the Bering Strait is losing traction.

Stanford says his "testable model" rests at least in part on recent findings of early human settlements along the East Coast, including one possibly 17,000 years old along Virginia's Nottoway River called Cactus Hill.

That's long before the once-accepted but now questioned time frame of humanity's arrival in the Americas roughly 11,500 years ago. Those early Americans were a culture of hunters called Clovis, named for the New Mexico town where distinctive thin, sharp stone points were found. How the points were carved or flaked and attached to wooden spears can tell archaeologists about the people who made them.

Link to Europe
In the past two decades, however, scientists have unearthed points and other material they say are older and different at sites in Virginia, the Delmarva peninsula, western Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Florida and South America. Some suggest that means there were humans here before the Clovis culture; Stanford says those humans could represent a link to Europe.

"Pre-Clovis is a fact in North and South America," archaeologist Michael Collins of the University of Texas at Austin said this year at a symposium on the topic.

Collins, Stanford and others discussed alternatives to the theory that the Americas were populated via the Bering land bridge. Some climate records suggest the glaciers that once formed a bridge between Siberia and Alaska began receding more than 13,000 years ago, too early for the Clovis-first theory.

Alternatives put forth in the past few years suggest that instead of trekking across land and ice, humans used boats or perhaps even ice floes to move thousands of miles from one continent to another.

Based on sites along the Pacific coast of the Americas, some archaeologists suggest seafarers from Asia took a Pacific Rim route more than 12,000 years ago to the West Coast and then sailed south, following marine life.

"This whole Clovis and pre-Clovis debate is healthy for archaeology," said Mike Barber, Virginia's new state archaeologist. "Now we have a plethora of competing theories."

He said Stanford's Solutrean theory deserves consideration.

To explain the arrival of humans along the East Coast at the end of the last Ice Age, Stanford in 1999 resurrected the controversial theory that paleo-Europeans may have entered the New World thousands of years before Leif Eriksson or Christopher Columbus.

To Stanford, the Clovis tool technology that creates a leaf-shaped point appears derived from the European Solutrean culture, which featured laurel or willow-shaped spear points developed thousands of years earlier in Spain. He discounts the thick-bodied style of northeast Asian points as the progenitor of Clovis' slender points.

Stanford notes growing evidence that several sites on the East Coast, including the Cactus Hill site, and others in Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Florida pre-date the Clovis time period.

Pre-Clovis culture represents a transition between Solutrean and Clovis cultures, according to Stanford. Not only do the pre-Clovis sites fill the time gap, but they are conveniently located near the Atlantic coast of Europe and North America, he noted.

The Solutrean people lived about 16,000 to 22,000 years ago, during the height of European glaciation. They lived in protected coves in southwestern France and coastal Spain and Portugal that they left in the fall and winter. Stanford says Solutrean cave art in northern Spain appears to depict speared seals, although other scientists disagree.

Stanford believes that Solutrean hunters chased seals and other foods from their European beachside homes to the New World. Millions of seals even now live along the coast of the North Atlantic. The populations of Canadian and European seals meet off the coast of Greenland, he said.

"I wonder if I were sitting on the coast of Spain 19,000 years ago wondering where the next meal would be, [and] the wind blew the ice in and I saw 4 million harp seals, I think I know where the next meal would be," Stanford said.

During that cold period when sea levels were lower, the ice extending south from the Arctic was probably close to the Iberian coast, he said. In warmer times, it retreated north about 500 miles, enticing hunters and their families in the summer to follow the seals and other marine life by boat.

Once on the hunt, the prevailing ocean current would sweep the Solutrean people westward. The distance across this ice bridge would have been about 1,500 miles, much closer than it is today. The trip might have been accomplished in just a few weeks.

"You could actually get a whole bunch of people washing up on the shore of Nova Scotia," Stanford said, noting that boats such as those used by modern Inuits could have made the crossing. "You get three boats like this working along the edge of that ice and they kind of end up going to America and you get a viable population."

From Canada, the Solutrean people may have made their way south to the Hudson Valley region, then to the mid-Atlantic, Stanford said.

"We've started looking on the [Chesapeake] Bay," he said.

Solutrean people probably stayed close to what was then the coastline. "I think that's why we start seeing a lot of this pre-Clovis stuff right about Delaware, Maryland and then down into Virginia, the Carolinas and Florida.

"This is only an hypothesis," Stanford said, adding, "I'm beating the bandwagon and making these comparisons to Spain, which has got people upset."

One of those upset is anthropologist Lawrence G. Straus of the University of New Mexico. A specialist in the Upper Paleolithic era in western Europe, he questions that if the Solutrean people made it to the East Coast, where did they go? He sees no sign that they passed on to pre-Clovis humans their highly artistic culture or their tool-making abilities, and little sign that they passed on their genes.

Straus also disputes Stanford's marine drawings. He says that while Solutrean people ate marine animals such as shellfish and used harpoons, they did not hunt seals in boats.

Instead, Straus says it is more likely that peopling of the Americas began not across the North Atlantic but from the west through Beringia, and that "people faced with roughly similar situations . . . come up with very similar [technological] solutions."

Another of Stanford's most vocal critics is Stuart Fiedel, an archaeologist with the Louis Berger Group in Washington specializing in the pre-history of the eastern United States.

To change his mind, he says, someone would have to find, at a site between New Jersey and the Carolinas, a handful of laurel-leafed points, "nicely dated" to about 19,000 years ago. "I don't think it's going to happen," he said.

Barber, Virginia's state archaeologist, said he, too, has "trouble seeing the transition from Solutrean to pre-Clovis to Clovis, but says it's not impossible to consider.

"We need to follow it with data" he said, closely examining the techniques used to make spear points and by finding interim, transient camps along the coastline. That won't be easy, he noted, since any coastal camps from that time period now are underwater.

Stanford says artifacts unearthed on the Delmarva peninsula and the barrier islands along the Eastern Shore hint at a Solutrean influence that pre-dates Clovis culture. They include fossilized remains of walruses, which may have lured wandering Solutrean hunters to the Chesapeake region when sea levels were 350 feet lower than today.

"The more paleo-Indian points . . . you find, which indirectly suggest that the coastline was the place to be, it sort of fits [Stanford's] model . . . of pre-Clovis folks focused along the coastline and exploiting coastal resources," said archaeologist Darrin Lowery. Lowery's artifacts, cited by Stanford, were found on Maryland's Jefferson Island and Hooper Island as well as at Virginia's Northampton County and Mockhorn Island.

"They look very similar to some of the stuff from Cactus Hill, to some of the stuff that they're finding in Florida. And more importantly they look very similar to some of the stuff found at Solutrean sites," Lowery said.

The archaeologist excavating Virginia's Cactus Hill, Joseph McAvoy, believes most of his colleagues still favor the Siberia-Bering Strait theory for most of North America's native population, although he adds that "it is starting to appear that the oldest identifiable occupation of the New World was in the east."

For McAvoy, the issue isn't east or west.

"Perhaps the better question is, did a technology arrive with just a few people from the east . . . which spread through a light and/or later population primarily arriving from the west," he said.
www.AtlantisInAmerica.com 
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« Reply #595 on: December 30, 2007, 01:18:05 pm »

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Plato said that Atlantis was located beyond the pillars of Herakles, to the north of Gades, the ancient name for Cadiz, on the Iberian Peninsula. Atlantis, he said, had two harvests a year, for a damp wind off the Atlantic brought plenty of rain and the climate was mild, supporting a large population. There were elephants and the people were adept at bull- and horse- breeding. Megalithic structures dominated the landscape, despite a high incident of earthquakes. It sank beneath the sea around 9560 BCE, about the same time as incursions from the North Sea began to invade the low-lying plains from the Rhine Estuary.

Was the Celtic Shelf Atlantis? Woolly Mammoths lived in France and Spain until 4,000 years ago and are depicted in the cave paintings of Cro-Magnon man. Evidence of major paleoseismic events has been discovered from Switzerland to Iberia, beginning with major quakes in 12,610 and 11,960 BCE, the supposed crustal displacement event around 9600 BCE, a major event in 7820 BCE, and the Storegga Slide and tsunami of 7250 BCE. Yet, the broad plains of the land bridge made for ideal living conditions for a great number of people, growing all sorts of plants and trees, protected by the British uplands on the west, the Gallic uplands and the mountains of the Pyrenean Peninsula on the east and the south.

The search for Atlantis is hampered by one indesputable fact. There are no large sunken islands or small continents in the geological history of the oceans' floor, no missing pieces in the jigsaw puzzle of the earth's landmasses that would fit the description of Atlantis. And yet… A landmass roughly corresponding to Plato's description did sink beneath the ocean at exactly the time and in precisely the place where Plato reported.

12,000 years ago, the oceans of the earth were 200 feet lower than they are today. The littoral edges of the continents provided resources that the frozen interiors could not, supporting a population who were already venturing across open water in small vessels and following ancient migration and trading routes across exposed land bridges around the world. From Africa to Asia, from Europe to the Americas, the continental shelves reveal sunken stones, enigmatic monoliths that whisper the names of lost civilizations like Atlantis and Lemuria. And it is only here, on the sunken shores of bygone millennia that such ruins do exist.

The legends of these lost civilizations fit nowhere in the timelines we have painstakingly mapped out; but, unlike the physical geography of the earth, there are gaps in time large enough to fill with whole continents of our past, vistas of advanced societies as broad and as breathtaking as our mind's eye can imagine. The littoral plains of every continent were the birthplace of a global civilization so foreign we cannot comprehend its extent though we are the descendants of its survivors, not only from Atlantis and Lemuria, but from Lochlann, Lyonesse, Hyperborea, Tir-na Nog and every land that now lies beneath the sea.

http://www.geocities.com/blessed_isles/Lochlann/index.html

 
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« Reply #596 on: December 30, 2007, 01:44:25 pm »

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possible that the shelf bulged.

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« Reply #597 on: December 30, 2007, 01:45:26 pm »

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Or that the stuff that overran Atlantis, and made "it sink" was water in solid form - known as "ice".

We have heard similiar confusions arise before - in the story about the guy walking on "water". That is fully possible if you're born and rised north of the Black Sea, - where all lakes freezes during winter-time. Many northern countries used to base major parts of their regional and inter-regional trade on horse-sledges passing over "safe ice" trotting the "highsways" of the flat frozen rivers and lakes. An amazing archeological discovery from Carelia (1982) showed a higly developed ski - for dog-sledges - measured to be 10.200 years old. Thus it is obvious that the idea of transport and traffic was fully developed - already at that time. Several other discoveries doene over the last 20 years have shown that this cultural aspect was fully present by the very first settlers of Northern Europe.

The origin of such a population could possibly have been the area of southern England and Ireland - since this part of Europe seems to have been FREE of ice - countinously - throughout ice-time. While the rest of Northern Europe was depopulated due to enormous ice-cap that covered the northern hemisphere, once. Then - we had the discovery of the so-called Susilola in Finland, a cave where people had lived for more than 6 successive inter-glacials, - which bring us more than 280.000 years back in time. At the SW shores inside the archipelago of Finland and the island called A-land.

Then we may add that at some point even the Susilola was overran - by ICE. And so was the rest of Fenno-Scandia, - as the giantic Scandinavian Glacier broke up,- and started moving from the inner highlands - and down to the ocean. And thus the coastline of Finland was overran, some 10.000 years ago - by frozen water. During this short and peculiar period the entire Fenno-Scandinavian Penninsula, where these ice-agers had existed - became overran by the extensive inland-ice. Except from the island called Gotland - where survuivors from this "proto-arctic" population could have survived. Which seems to correspond with another fact, recently established by prof. Hawks at the Uniceristy of Whyoming, establishing that modern man seems to have populated Europe, first after ice-age - from the north...

This might be a funny or even simplistic view - but today we have both Russian and Norwegian universities providing supportive evidence for a high-arctic culture populating the Baltic and the Barent Area already 40.000 years ago - with successively spreading as the Eurasian ice-sheet melted. Until the entire Scandinavian Glacier started moving, - some 10.-12.000 years ago.

Finally we have this Scandinavian myths, that all tell of this events - in a chronoligical order that we today may prove true or false, due to the last 150 years of scientific archaeology, - recntly backed by modern chemistry and physics. The Norse and the Fenno-Ugrian myths are based on two entirely different languages and cultural sets of expressions. But they both reflect on a common origin for "all people", before one small group from the original populus became seperated, eventually becomming the origin for "all northern people" - because they were the only ones that have survived ice-time, in the north of Europe.

The Finnish Bock-Saga goes even one step further, explaining "Alt-land-is" (All-land-ice) to be the full name of the "time-period" where the "Aser" got isolated, trapped inside a large pocket in the ice-cap - created from an incomming Gulf-stream, that obstructed the cold of the ice to cover the coastlines of Sweden and southern Finland. Thus they lived in isolation - inside the Baltic Ocean - during ALL of ice-time - before they came out of this existential test of endurance, at the end of ice-time.

Thus the Bocksaga explains how this seafaring population could go south, west and east - as the great glaciers were gone and the climate allowed for long-distance travels - along the Eurasian rivers and coastlines. Present evidence from North America seems to state that this early modern humans of the arctic area, reached the eastern part of todays USA - already 10.-11.000 years ago. Today the geneticians says that the Obijiwa and Alonquian indians have clear genetic markers from contact with western Europe, "more than 10.000 years ago".

The old capitol of these northernes - built BEFORE ice-age - were said to be "extremly beutiful". It could have existed as such - during the entire ice-age, - before the cataclysmic end of ice-time appeared, as the coastline of southern Scandinvia and Finland was overrun by massive amounts of frozen water.

Which today are known as one main reason to an incredible rise of the level of the worlds oceans - by 120-160 metres. And still the very old land of the Fenno-Scandinavian Shield rose again, twice the rise of the ocean-level. Thus the survivors on Gotland could one day return back - to the Finnish archipelago - and rebuild their old capitol, from where they could populate all of Northern Asia, while their off-springs from Gotland became the Scandinavians and the North Europeans. The Bock-saga further explains how envoys from the original family-line continued to call themselves "Aser", while their immediate offsprings to the east is called "Vaner", while the western offsprings became the kinglines of the "Goths", the "Danes" and the "Swedes" - who spread to populate all of northern Europe.

Meanwhile the Aser-family themselves sent envoys to the royal houses of all the tropical civilisations that had co-existed - during ice-time. We may still understand the difference between different etnic groups of the planet as each continent/sub-continet seem to have developed both genetical and liguistic characteristics due to a very long time of effective isolation. 10.000 years ago they ALL start to change - as we may see it in South America as in Africa or Asia. Megalitic structures, signs, numbers and other universal symbols starts to occur all around the globe, as do cultivation, agriculture, travel and trade. Simultaniously - around the globe...

Moreover - they left similar stories behind them - in Mexico as in Sri Lanka. Since we start to get a better grip of the genuine legends of indigenous populations - we start to see incredible paralellities of culture spreading in simultanious ways already 8.500 years ago. According to most myths the consept of this "higher culture" - also called "civilisation" - came with some specific "bringers of knowledge". And btw. - evrywhere they seem to be appearing in ships -"across the ocean..." 
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Bianca
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« Reply #598 on: December 30, 2007, 01:46:30 pm »

Helios

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   posted 05-13-2006 04:51 PM                       
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Mid-Atlantic Ridge/Azores

During the last ice age, the sea levels could have been much lower, up to 500 feet less, and a large section of the Atlantic is in fact less than 500 feet deep.

 
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« Reply #599 on: December 30, 2007, 01:47:35 pm »

Helios

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   posted 05-13-2006 04:58 PM                       
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Storegga Slide

The three Storegga Slides count among the largest recorded landslides in history. They occurred under water on the edge of Norway's continental shelf (Storegga is Norwegian for "the Great Edge") in the Norwegian Sea, 100 km north west of the Møre coast, where an area the size of Iceland slid, causing a megatsunami in the North Atlantic Ocean. The latest incident occurred around 6100 BC. In Scotland, traces of this tsunami have been recorded.

As part of the activities to prepare the Ormen Lange natural gas field, the incident has been thoroughly investigated. One conclusion is that the slide was caused by material built up during the previous ice age, and that a reoccurrence would only be possible after a new ice age. This conclusion is supported by numerous exhaustive published scientific studies.

Facts and arguments supporting such conclusion were made public in 2004. Earlier it was concluded that the development of the Ormen Lange gas field would not significantly increase the risk of triggering a new slide. A new slide, potentially larger than Denmark in area, and 400 m to 800 m high, would trigger mega tsunamis that would be devastating for the coast areas around the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea.


Possible mechanism

Earthquakes, together with gas like methane released from the decomposition of gas hydrates, are considered to be the likely triggering mechanisms for the slides.

[ 05-13-2006, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Helios ]

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"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together..."
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