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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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« Reply #555 on: December 30, 2007, 08:48:30 am »

docyabut
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Frist of all, it was not Plato`s story, it was Critias`s story. The attack and death on Socrates who denied the greek gods was due in large part to Critias.

The story told to the Egyptains was of the end of a empire, in 600 bc the time it was recorded.Tartesso was the captial and its sank.

Critias took the story that was told to Solon, who was not around, and turn it into a tale to glorify the athen gods in their history. 
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« Reply #556 on: December 30, 2007, 08:49:36 am »

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There nothing in history that would give any evidence of this story except for the fact that in the 6th century BC, Tartessos disappears rather suddenly from history. 
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« Reply #557 on: December 30, 2007, 08:50:59 am »

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600 B.C.

Gaelic Celts, called the Gaels (Gauls), settled in Hibernia (Ierne or Ireland) integrating with the aboriginal peoples. The Anatolia (Greek) religion of 'city state' (Polis) a form of Imperialism appears in Massilia (Marseillies, France) about this time. This religion demanded utmost loyalty to law for social order and political ideals.

Massilia (Marseille France) is established by Anatolia (Greek) and Semitic-Phoenician colonists about this time. The Semitic-Phoenician discouraged the Anatolia (Greek) from settling in southern Spain and in Corsica. In Italy the Latin-Etruscans became hostile confining the Anatolia (Greek) to the south. Egypt reports that Anatolia (Greeks) and Semitic-Hebrews have established colonies in Egypt.

Babylon established a silver standard resulting in usury, mortgages and enslaved debtors. Private business flourished and families like the Egibi made a fortune in real estate, the slave trade and money lending.

The Latin-Etruscan Empire extended from Tuscany to cover most of Italy from the Po Valley in the North to Salerno in the South. Some believed they originated in Turkey as part of the Hittite Empire while others suggest they originated in Italy as a culture.

The Egyptian Pharaoh Necho commissioned Semitic-Phoenician mariners to voyage round Africa. Three years later they returned to report that the continent is surrounded by sea except at the point in Egypt where it joins Asia.

The Egyptians in 600 B.C. recorded the existence of Atlantis. This alleged myth was passed down through Solon to Plato who recorded it in 400 B.C. An epochal flood is believed to have swallowed up Atlantis.


According to Herodotus, King Arganthonios ruled Tartessia for 80 years, from 630 BC to 550 BC. Much of this Tartessian dynasty is told in legends, so no one knows what part is actually historical. He is said by the Greeks to have lived for 120 years while others state that he lived a longer 150 years. His empire consisted of all of Andalucía and extended to the Cabo de la Nao (a cape east of the Costa Blanca, south of the Gulf of Valencia). His empire was what may possibly have attracted Greek colonists to the Spanish coast. One of those colonies was Mainake, present-day Málaga. Though the capital of Tartessia sank in the mouth of the swampy Guadalquivir River (and now is famously thought to have been Atlantis), its sunken ruins show great fortifications and columns. Herodotus records his death after a naval battle won by the Greeks over a united fleet of Carthaginians and Etruscans. After losing over half their fleet, the Greeks stopped challenging military dominance in the area, and Tartessia, without an ally, became exposed to Carthaginian expansion. 
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« Reply #558 on: December 30, 2007, 08:52:07 am »

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550 BC is when Solon returns to Athens. 
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« Reply #559 on: December 30, 2007, 08:53:16 am »

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Herodotus of Halicarnassus (Greek: Ἡρόδοτος, Herodotos) was a historian who lived in the 5th century BC (484 BC-ca. 425 BC). He is known for writing The Histories, a collection of stories on different places and peoples he learned about through his travels.


Herodotus

When the capital fell the city and the empire sank into the Guadalquivir river. Mainake, the Greek colony which protected Tartessia from Carthage, also sank.

The Greeks compared Tartessia to Atlantis and Hesperides and possibly Tartessia was Atlantis. Hearing all these rumours about silver, good life, and luxury, the Greeks named the isolated west Isles of the Blessed, Tartessos.
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« Reply #560 on: December 30, 2007, 08:54:21 am »

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quote:
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Originally posted by Brig:
I still believe that mankinds major civilizations were (11,000 years ago) located on the ocean fronts, near large bodies of water, and in river valleys. Most of the rest of the interiors were locked in a very dry, ice age. A flood, of catasclysmic proportions, whatever its cause, effectively inundated those civilizations and I think they will be found under the ocean at various points of the continental shelves and possibly on now submerged islands.Just as Plato explains, only generally uneducated remnents survived and except for a few names; the old civilizations were forgotten by the vast majority. I just cannot believe that mankind has existed for 200,000 years but only attained high civilization in the past 8000 years. That leaves 192,000 or so years of humans spinning their collective wheels. It does not make sense.
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Exactly, Brig, I've been saying that for a long time now. It ABSOLUTELY makes no sense, and anyone with common sense would realize this. Humans with the same brain cavity size and with the same modern anatomy have been around for 200,000 years and now some suspect 2 million, and just now some 8,000 years we made civilization, give me a break.

 
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« Reply #561 on: December 30, 2007, 08:58:02 am »

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Another fact is no one really knows where Tartesso was in the Guadalquivir river, facing the country Gades in Critias`s time.

Critias.
facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus 
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« Reply #562 on: December 30, 2007, 09:00:10 am »

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quote:
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Originally posted by Brig:
I still believe that mankinds major civilizations were (11,000 years ago) located on the ocean fronts, near large bodies of water, and in river valleys. Most of the rest of the interiors were locked in a very dry, ice age. A flood, of catasclysmic proportions, whatever its cause, effectively inundated those civilizations and I think they will be found under the ocean at various points of the continental shelves and possibly on now submerged islands.Just as Plato explains, only generally uneducated remnents survived and except for a few names; the old civilizations were forgotten by the vast majority. I just cannot believe that mankind has existed for 200,000 years but only attained high civilization in the past 8000 years. That leaves 192,000 or so years of humans spinning their collective wheels. It does not make sense.
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Brig:

You have discovered, with your deductive capacity, which I call the great secret of Atlantis: the exterminations and cultural falls of the human beings throughout 200 thousand years.

I suppose that you know that all the first migratory branches that left Africa for more than 130 thousand years, its were exterminated, although we do not know why. It only does between 70 and 50 thousand years the human beings we could to be based and to survive outside Africa. So that? By the cyclical climatic changes that the precession of the equinoxes generates.

This subject was studied deeply in all the old civilizations. The problem clearly is related in some paragraph of the platonic text (Timaeus 21, 22). That prevented that it happened logic ascending evolution that you indicate. You are looking for something that never existed. For that reason the food production was considered a miracle in the antiquity. And also for that reason he is essential for the future of the humanity deciphering correctly the myth. That so far.

 
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« Reply #563 on: December 30, 2007, 09:02:25 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by docyabut:
Frist of all, it was not Plato`s story, it was Critias`s story. The attack and death on Socrates who denied the greek gods was due in large part to Critias.

The story told to the Egyptains was of the end of a empire, in 600 bc the time it was recorded. Tartesso was the captial and its sank.

Critias took the story that was told to Solon, who was not around, and turn it into a tale to glorify the athen gods in their history.
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Tartessos sank? Surprise... nobody has known, because the investigators say another thing...


quote:
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Lost civilization
In the 6th century BC, Tartessos disappears rather suddenly from history. The Romans called the wide bay the Tartessius Sinus though the city was no more. One theory is that the city had been destroyed by the Carthaginians who wanted to take over the Tartessans trading routes . Another is that it had been refounded, under obscure conditions, as Carpia. When the traveller Pausanias visited Greece in the 2nd century AD (Paus. Desc. 6.XIX.3) he saw two bronze chambers in one of the sanctuaries at Olympia, which the people of Elis claimed was Tartessian bronze:
"They say that Tartessus is a river in the land of the Iberians, running down into the sea by two mouths, and that between these two mouths lies a city of the same name. The river, which is the largest in Iberia, and tidal, those of a later day called Baetis, and there are some who think that Tartessus was the ancient name of Carpia, a city of the Iberians."
The name "Carpia" possibly survives as El Carpio, a site in a bend of the Guadalquivir, but the origin of its name has been associated with its imposing oldest feature, a Moorish tower erected in 1325 by the engineer responsible for the alcázar of Seville.
The site of Tartessos has been lost—buried under the shifting wetlands that have replaced former estuaries behind dunes at the modern single mouth of the Guadalquivir, where the river delta has gradually been blocked off by a huge sandbar that stretches from the mouth of the Rio Tinto, near Palos de la Frontera, to the riverbank opposite Sanlúcar de Barrameda. The area is now protected as the Parque Nacional de Doñana.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos

 
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« Reply #564 on: December 30, 2007, 09:03:29 am »

George Erikson
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Brig wrote:

"I still believe that mankinds major civilizations were (11,000 years ago) located on the ocean fronts, near large bodies of water, and in river valleys. Most of the rest of the interiors were locked in a very dry, ice age. A flood, of catasclysmic proportions, whatever its cause, effectively inundated those civilizations and I think they will be found under the ocean at various points of the continental shelves and possibly on now submerged islands.Just as Plato explains, only generally uneducated remnants survived and except for a few names; the old civilizations were forgotten by the vast majority. I just cannot believe that mankind has existed for 200,000 years but only attained high civilization in the past 8000 years. That leaves 192,000 or so years of humans spinning their collective wheels. It does not make sense"

Well put Brig! Now if we could only get an organized reasearch project underway!

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« Reply #565 on: December 30, 2007, 09:04:43 am »

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Doc: The problem with Tartessos is that it disappeared well into a time of recorded history. A world shattering flood that late in the gasme would have made all the papers....so to speak. Its simply too late in history to be Atlantis. Not only that, but I think its disappearance preceeds Plato. I don't think Plato was foretelling the future. 
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« Reply #566 on: December 30, 2007, 09:07:14 am »

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000958;p=18




docyabut
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brig,
The Egyptians in 600 B.C. recorded the existence of Atlantis. This alleged myth was passed down through Solon to Plato who recorded it in 400 B.C. An epochal flood is believed to have swallowed up Atlantis. 
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« Reply #567 on: December 30, 2007, 12:42:21 pm »

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Brig,

That world shattering flood seems to have affected the Americas far more than the rest of the world... furhter evidence that Atlantis was in (and part of) the Americas:

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Modelling an Abrupt Climate Change
By Allegra LeGrande and Gavin Schmidt — January 2006

An important reason to understand past climate changes is to help improve climate predictions for the future. This can be a difficult task due to the disparities in time scales (millions of years for past climate compared to decades for future climate), difficulties in the interpretation of past climate records, and the often very different focuses of the paleoclimate and modeling communities. Occasionally, though, a particular past period or event presents itself as an almost ideal case study for model-data comparisons.

Figure 1: Circulation patterns in the North Atlantic Ocean. Cold, dense water is shown in blue, flowing south from upper latitudes, while warm, less dense water flows north. Click for large GIF. (Source: Jack Cook for Ocean and Climate Change Institute, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.)

One such case was an abrupt cooling event across the Northern Hemisphere which occurred about 8200 years (8.2 kyr) ago and which is documented by multiple types of paleoclimate records as lasting several decades to a few centuries. Separate geologic lines of evidence document the catastrophic drainage of the prehistoric glacial Lakes Agassiz and Ojibway in Canada into the Hudson Bay at approximately the same time. This fresh water pulse may have been the catalyst for a decrease of meridional overturning circulation (MOC) in the North Atlantic (see Figure 1). (MOC is the flow of dense and bottom water away from high-latitude sources and the compensating return flow of less dense upper-ocean water. It is sometimes called the "conveyor belt".) This decrease may have lead to subsequent cooling around the Northern Hemisphere. However, this idea remains to be tested quantitatively.

Turning to the future, the complex coupled ocean-atmosphere models being analyzed for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) 4th Assessment Report need to be validated against as much data as possible. In particular, modellers need to be able to evaluate their models' ocean responses to climate change (see Figure 2). The spread in model projections for the North Atlantic MOC as a function of increasing greenhouse gases is extremely large, ranging from an almost 50% decrease to a small increase by 2100. In part, this uncertainty stems from modellers tuning for the existence of a stable North Atlantic circulation, but not being able to tune for its sensitivity for lack of appropriate data.

Figure 2: Simulated water-volume transport change of the Atlantic "conveyor belt" in a range of global warming scenarios computed by different climate research centers. Shown is the annual mean relative to the mean of the years 1961 to 1990 (units SV = 106 m3/s). The past forcings are only due to greenhouse gases and aerosols. Click for large GIF or PDF. (Source: Chapter 9 of IPCC report Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis)

Useful model-data comparisons have a number of pre-requisites. Wide-spread and clear data on the event is crucial, but even more important is the existence of a plausible and interesting candidate for the cause of the climate change. Changes in MOC have been deduced for many paleoclimatic periods, but a further set of constraints prevents modellers being able to take full advantage of that data. In short, for fully coupled climate models the initial conditions need to be close to those of the present day, and the duration of the event needs to be short enough to be tractable with current computer resources (i.e., decades to centuries rather than millennia). This mitigates against the use of climate variability such as Dansgaard-Oeschger and Heinrich events during the last glacial period and possibly the Younger Dryas cooling (a good example of an effect with an as-yet-unquantified cause) about 10,000 years ago.

The 8.2 kyr abrupt climate change event would therefore appear to have it all: well-dated and widespread data, a relatively short duration, base climate close to modern (only remnant ice sheets, minor differences in greenhouse gases compared to the pre-industrial, and relatively small insolation differences), a potentially important ocean response, and crucially, a quantifiable hypothesis for a cause — the catastrophic draining of Lakes Agassiz and Ojibway. Our simulations of this event using GISS ModelE therefore take the hypothesized cause and try to reproduce the response. (This model is exactly the same as that used for IPCC simulations of future climate.) The cause is straightforwardly done; we add appropriate volumes of water to the Hudson Bay in very short bursts (six months to a year).

Figure 3: GISS ModelE simulated 8.2 kyr climate response to freshwater forcing in the Hudson Bay (2.5 to 5 Sv years, or 25-50 cm of equivalent sea level). Panels (a) and (b) show the model's simulated changes in surface air temperature and precipitation, respectively. Panels (c) and (d) show changes in the simulated tracers directly compared to oxygen isotopes (or temperature and precipitation proxies) in the paleoclimate record. Click for large GIF or PDF. (Source: NASA GISS)

Judging the response is harder. To have a more consistent match to the data, we used multiple "tracers" in the model (water isotopes, methane, dust, and other aerosols) to "forward model" the same past climate records that we see in past climate proxies such as ice cores, cave records, and ocean and lake sediments. What do we see? It turns out that the amount of water in the lake can cause sufficient changes in the density of the North Atlantic to cause a slowdown in the MOC of between 30 and 60%, large enough to cause significant cooling (up to 2-3°C, or 3.5 to 5.5°F, in areas of the North Atlantic) and shifts in rainfall bands to the south in both the North Atlantic and the tropics.

The climate changes affect the tracers in predictable ways. Water isotopes become more depleted in line with the cooling (as observed), and because of the reduced rainfall in the region, dust and aerosol concentrations increase in Greenland snow (as observed). Methane emissions respond to the drying — reducing wetland extent, and cooling — reducing the basic anaerobic respiration by bacteria (again, as observed). Put together, the match to the observed data is very good over a whole range of proxies with very different biogeochemical behavior.

What does this imply? Given the very different physics of each of the proxies, it seems unlikely that the model would give good results for all of them if its simulated climate response was completely off. Therefore, the results demonstrate that a multi-decadal period of reduced overturning in the ocean is very consistent with the whole pattern of the observed event. By scaling the model's response a little, we estimate that a reduction of about 50% in the MOC is the most consistent with the data.

Thus, we have now been able to test the ocean's response to freshwater forcing. While the 8.2 kyr event is not an analog for what may happen in the future, a slowdown in the MOC is predicted by our model (and others) for a future world, partly as a function of ocean warming and partly as a function of increased freshening from ice melt and increased rainfall. As more models perform these kinds of experiments, it may be possible to narrow the uncertainties in the future projections based on how well they simulate the 8.2 kyr event.

Also See
News Release: Scientists Confirm Historic Massive Flood in Climate Change

References
LeGrande, A.N., G.A. Schmidt, D.T. Shindell, C.V. Field, R.L. Miller, D.M. Koch, G. Faluvegi, and G. Hoffmann 2006. Consistent simulations of multiple proxy responses to an abrupt climate change event. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 103, 837-842, doi:10.1073pnas.0510095103.
Schmidt, G.A., and A.N. LeGrande 2005. The Goldilocks abrupt climate change event. Quaternary Sci. Rev. 24, 1109-1110, doi:10.1016/j.quascirev.2005.01.015.
Contact
Please address all inquiries about this research to Allegra LeGrande.



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Responsible NASA Official: James E. Hansen
Page updated: 2006-02-28

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« Reply #568 on: December 30, 2007, 12:43:39 pm »

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« Reply #569 on: December 30, 2007, 12:44:36 pm »

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Whatever. According to Biblical and other ancient writings the flood was severe enough to wipe out civilization as it stood at that time. Doc you are still forgetting that a cataclysmic flood would be big news in 600BC. Tartessos is simply not early enough to be Atlantis. Many great cities fell to invaders never to rise again. Some also were devestated by disease epidemics or other natural catastrophes. Cities that fell due to epidemics rarely ever continued to exist. The disease was so feared and so unknown (its source) that it became a pariah to people who steered clear of it and it was forgotten over time. Many great cities became abandoned because of superstitions assiociated with what we know today was disease.
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