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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7589 times)
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« Reply #540 on: December 30, 2007, 08:24:24 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Rich:
Timaeus actually has 1 reference to the Atlantic. Critias has several.

The Myrina myth points away from the Atlantic.

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Here is the timaeus reference:
"from your legions to be erased out of Atlanticus Sea/Men the war with the all tribes and nations inflicting."

-- an unconventional translation here, that is probably wrong, is replacing the word "sea" with "men". "Mari" is most commonly translated as Sea. And in the context of Atlantic, the meaning seems clear. However, sometimes "mari" is short-hand for "maritus", which means "men". This is the only reference to the Atlantic in Timaeus.

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"May be therefore with our each the credulity you consume to the affirmation of the ancient men, because Terras and of Caelus the son may be Ocean and [Tethys], of these again Saturn and [Rhea] and Phorcus, of Saturn to the leek and Rhea the offsprings Jupiter and Juno and the other which are in the mouth of the men and with the minds and about the brotherhood of which the rumour is celebrated; " -- Plato's Timaeus

Terra + Caelus (Gaea + Uranus)
Oceanus + Tethys
Saturn + Rhea, Phorcus
Jupiter + Hera

Note: Plato says Saturn is the son of Oceanus, and not the son of Uranus. Phorcus is the brother of saturn. This follows the Orphic Genealogy.

Orphic discussion:
http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/titans.html
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For me, the most important point of this debate is to clarify, without prejudices, if the Atlantic sea that describe the text of Plato is the Atlantic Ocean which we know or no. I affirm that it is not it for several reasons that already I have indicated above. One of these reasons is that to the sea that we called Atlantic, formerly, in time of Plato, was called Okeano. To thus they indicate many writings it of the time (Anaximander, Homer, Hesiodo). In the general, all academic the specialists in mythology Greek accept that it is a titan, that is to say, a sea, whitch is the important thing for this debate. Of who was Okeano son, there are several versions. I put two versions different from the subject, classic and a other of the pelagos, (Greek Mythology, F.L. Cardona. Edicomunicaciones, Barcelona, 1996) but without a doubt there are many more.

In addition, if the text is reviewed with another view, we will see that there are several elements that make us put in doubt the classic version. Timaeus. 25, in the last part, is very interesting. (Penguin Classics, London, 1977) “advances from its bases in the Atlantic Ocean to attack the cities of Europe and Asia.” They controlled Libya, the border of Egypt, and Europe to far Tyrrhenia. So far from who? Libya and Egypt are more far if they come from the West... If they come from east, Tyrrhenia is but far... or is another Tyrrhenia..., that is what I think...

 
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« Reply #541 on: December 30, 2007, 08:25:20 am »

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Bull in any speice meams the male, so it depends on what bull the atlantis story was talking about. We are figuring that is what a bull cow which was only in greek myth before Comlumbus brought them over.Plato`s atlantis could never have been in the Americas, it was a bronze age culture with chariots. There were no chariots in the Americas 10,000 years ago. 
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« Reply #542 on: December 30, 2007, 08:26:29 am »

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Des:

Yes, the oldest dates for anything resembling a "city" goes to about 8000 BC. That is one of the major and most effective arguments against Plato's Atlantis being a literal story. (Of course, the fact that Plato went to great lengths to describe the complete destruction of it is ignored in the argument.) In his new book, Andrew Collins details a temple site in Turkey, with an associated community, dated to 8000 BC. His earlier book, "From the Ashes of Angels" details a lot of other sites in Turkey dated to about the same time.

As to others' comments, my intention is not to argue that the Americas was Atlantis. Let me say that again. I'm not saying that the Americas was Atlantis. In 10,000 BC most of North America was still uninhabitable (cold) as was a lot of the north Mediterranean region. What I hoped to do was bring some relevant facts to the irrational argument against the Americas as Atlantis. It's been said by many that there were no elephants, horses, or bulls in the Americas in the time of Plato's Atlantis, and that's not true. They were here in large numbers. They just became extinct around 9000 BC or so, the same basic time as the Carolina Bays Event. Is it coincidence? I don't know. As to chariots in the Americas dated to 10,000 years ago, I'd like to see any chariot from anywhere that is that old. Therein lies the problem. The argument that chariots were in use in the Middle East in 3000 BC is irrelevant. Where are the 10,000 BC chariots from there? Not one that old has ever been found, anywhere. So it is irrelevant that a 10,000-year old chariot has never been found in the Americas. They have never been found anywhere. Does that mean Atlantis existed in more recent times and that Plato's date was wrong? No one knows. It's probably correct to lean on the side of the argument that his date was wrong. But to me that underlies his total credibility. I specialize in criminal psychology, and from that perspective, if he was that wrong about the date, then his entire story has to be suspect. That's my perspective, no one has to accept it.

The essential problem in all of this is people are speculating about the location of a civilization that was far older than any known civilization and was also said to have been destroyed. The circular and irrational reasoning here is that since someone doesn't see the remains of Atlantis in a given place, they argue that it can't have been there.

The so-called "Old-World" appears to have been younger than many cultures in South America. What does it mean? It means we just don't know much that happened in the Old World before 3500 BC and just about nothing at all about the Americas' prehistory. There is a great mystery in this that does not seem to fit accepted beliefs.

There is nothing wrong about speculation as long as it isn't confused with science. And Atlantis is a motherlode of speculation. Based on this, mainstream archaeologist and textbook author Kenneth Feder has asserted "Atlantis never existed." He speaks for most of the mainstream. Nearly all Atlantis speculations are completely irrational, at least as many scientists see it. What exists is a story told 2300 years ago or so, said to have been passed down. The story is twisted to fit where people live, what their favored beliefs happen to be, and where it is convenient to look.

When I realized the futility of Atlantis speculation, I decided that the best approach for me was to go to specific places and conduct research to see what is actually there. In truth, that got me away from speculating and into something far more interesting. With that, I'll say good-hunting to all. 
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« Reply #543 on: December 30, 2007, 08:31:50 am »

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But science isn't the answer to everything, and if a theory doesn't resemble their "belief" then it's illogical. But how much of the ocean has actually been explored? even with sonar.

 
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« Reply #544 on: December 30, 2007, 08:32:49 am »

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Neko, other than very generally with soundings and sonar (which will not pick up ruins), less than 5% of the ocean bottom has been explored. 
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« Reply #545 on: December 30, 2007, 08:33:54 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Greg Little:

Seems to me very reasonable your position and I share it totally. Who we wished to show that Atlantis existed, we must be very rigorous in the matter of the tests. Here there is no space for the speculation or to personal beliefs. Also the methodology to present the data and the conclusions is essential. Of another way, never nothing will be able to be proven or will remove the study from Atlantis of the dark fields of the speculation.

Now, in this analysis of method in which we are, the dates are subjects that merit a deep analysis. Plato never indicated that all the events happened in the 9600 BC. He indicates that there the process began. The scientific researches say that there they beginning the first human settlement with agriculture; that is to say, in that date start the civilization. In this point, therefore, there is coincidence. Also the myth talking of evolution of these cities by many generations, that is to say, is long lapses of time. Archaeology says us the same, because in the 8000 BC already there are many cities, that a civilization in expansion shows, which also indicates the myth. Again there is coincidence.

When the other events happened, the war and the end of Atlantis? Plato do not put a date to him. Plato says to us that there were fleets of boats, horses and cars battle. And there we are in a great problem. We must look for events in the history that show a similar situation to us. An end takes to dates like the 1200 BC and the towns to us of the sea. Oldest according to my registries, they are the indicated one by Hawkes, when it describes to the expansion of towns agriculturists from east to the West, in boats, by all the Mediterranean Sea (circa 5000 BC). Another one, established by Gimbutas, the Kurgans invasions (circa 4000), that came from the Caucasus. I settle down another one, of the Cananites towards the north (circa 3500 BC), that invaded Egypt and Mesopotamia, by the Red Sea. The problem that has these invasions is that no simultaneously has chariots and fleets of boats.

In the personnel, I incline by a combination of the two first possibilities. One has boats and the other, has horses and cars. Also because they are more near the date than I settled down for the end of Atlantis, the 5600.

I incline to also think that it is a generic story of the war between two cultures: Indo-European and Semites. On this subject in special, I believe that still there is much to study.

The problem is that nothing of these facts happens in the proximity which today we know like the Atlantic Ocean, neither we have nor single data that show similar events in that region.

Here the texts of Hawkes.


quote:
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"It seems that the main departure point for the diffusion of the neolithic cultures towards the west throughout the Mediterranean was from Eastern extreme him of the sea... The oldest diffusion (to less of course, than it proves itself that ` was a phase pre potering) is characterized by a type of ceramics with drawings printed before the baking, frequently with the edge of a shell. It is the ceramics of but the old establishment, the one of Mersin, and also apparently of Ram Shamra, [Ugarit], Biblos, and other syrian cities. Towards the west one always is in possession of the oldest agricultural communities, in Crete, Malta, the south of Italy, Sicily, the south of France and the coasts "levantinas" of Spain. Also one is in several small islands... affirms that the same tradition is represented in a series of places throughout the coast of Africa... All these tests indicate, then, towards a propagation of communities farmers by sea... This great diffusion could rather have begun from its Eastern sources before after the beginning of the fourth millenium; one has still not settled down how long demanded that it took the agricultural economy to France and Spain. Perhaps it is a period that exceeds the thousand years." Hawkes, Jacquetta. History of Humanity, Page 293.

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Work of Gimbutas


quote:
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Stages of expansion
Gimbutas' original suggestion identifies four successive stages of the Kurgan culture and three successive "waves" of expansion.

• Kurgan I, Dnieper/Volga region, earlier half of the 4th millennium BC. Apparently evolving from cultures of the Volga basin, subgroups include the Samara and Seroglazovo cultures.

• Kurgan II–III, latter half of the 4th millennium BC. Includes the Sredny Stog culture and the Maykop culture of the northern Caucasus. Stone circles, early two-wheeled chariots, anthropomorphic stone stelae of deities.

• Kurgan IV or Yamna culture, first half of the 3rd millennium BC, encompassing the entire steppe region from the Ural to Romania.

• Wave 1, predating Kurgan I, expansion from the lower Volga to the Dnieper, leading to coexistence of Kurgan I and the Cucuteni culture. Repercussions of the migrations extend as far as the Balkans and along the Danube to the Vinca and Lengyel cultures in Hungary.

• Wave 2, mid 4th millennium BC, originating in the Maykop culture and resulting in advances of "kurganized" hybrid cultures into northern Europe around 3000 BC (Globular Amphora culture, Baden culture, and ultimately Corded Ware culture). In the view of Gimbutas, this would correspond to the first intrusion of Indo-European languages into western and northern Europe.

• Wave 3, 3000–2800 BC, expansion of the Yamna culture beyond the steppes, with the appearance of the characteristic pit graves as far as the areas of modern Romania, Bulgaria and eastern Hungary.

Timeline

• 4500–4000: Early PIE. Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets and Samara cultures, domestication of the horse (Wave 1).

• 4000–3500: The Yamna culture, the prototypical kurgan builders, emerges in the steppe, and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus. Indo-Hittite models postulate the separation of Proto-Anatolian before this time.

• 3500–3000: Middle PIE. The Yamna culture is at its peak, representing the classical reconstructed Proto-Indo-European society, with stone idols, early two-wheeled proto-chariots, predominantly practicing animal husbandry, but also with permanent settlements and hillforts, subsisting on agriculture and fishing, along rivers. Contact of the Yamna culture with late Neolithic Europe cultures results in the "kurganized" Globular Amphora Baden cultures (Wave 2). The Maykop culture shows the earliest evidence of the beginning Bronze Age, and Bronze weapons and artefacts are introduced to Yamna territory. Probable early Satemization.

• 3000–2500: Late PIE. The Yamna culture extends over the entire Pontic steppe (Wave 3). The Corded Ware culture extends from the Rhine to the Volga, corresponding to the latest phase of Indo-European unity, the vast "kurganized" area disintegrating into various independent languages and cultures, still in loose contact enabling the spread of technology and early loans between the groups, except for the Anatolian and Tocharian branches, which are already isolated from these processes. The Centum-Satem break is probably complete, but the phonetic trends of Satemization remain active.

• 2500–2000: The breakup into the proto-languages of the attested dialects is complete. Proto-Greek is spoken in the Balkans, Proto-Indo-Iranian north of the Caspian in the emerging Andronovo culture. The Bronze Age reaches Central Europe with the Beaker culture, likely composed of various Centum dialects. The Tarim mummies possibly correspond to proto-Tocharians.

• 2000–1500: The chariot is invented, leading to the split and rapid spread of Iranian and Indo-Aryan from the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex over much of Central Asia, Northern India, Iran and Eastern Anatolia. Proto-Anatolian is split into Hittite and Luwian. The pre-Proto-Celtic Unetice culture has an active metal industry (Nebra skydisk).

• 1500–1000: The Nordic Bronze Age develops pre-Proto-Germanic, and the (pre)-Proto-Celtic Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures emerge in Central Europe, introducing the Iron Age. Migration of the Proto-Italians into the Italian peninsula (Bagnolo stele). Redaction of the Rigveda and rise of the Vedic civilization in the Punjab. The Mycenaean civilization gives way to the Greek Dark Ages.

• 1000 BC–500 BC: The Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe. Proto Germanic. Homer and the beginning of Classical Antiquity. The Vedic Civilization gives way to the Mahajanapadas. Zoroaster composes the Gathas, rise of the Achaemenid Empire, replacing the Elamites and Babylonia. Armenians succeed the Urartu culture. Separation of Proto-Italic into Osco-Umbrian and Latin-Faliscan. Genesis of the Greek and Old Italic alphabets. A variety of Paleo-Balkan languages are spoken in Southern Europe. The Anatolian languages are extinct.
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more information in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis
 
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« Reply #546 on: December 30, 2007, 08:35:20 am »

Desiree

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quote:
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Now, in this analysis of method in which we are, the dates are subjects that merit a deep analysis. Plato never indicated that all the events happened in the 9600 BC. He indicates that there the process began. The scientific researches say that there they beginning the first human settlement with agriculture; that is to say, in that date start the civilization. In this point, therefore, there is coincidence. Also the myth talking of evolution of these cities by many generations, that is to say, is long lapses of time. Archaeology says us the same, because in the 8000 BC already there are many cities, that a civilization in expansion shows, which also indicates the myth. Again there is coincidence.
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Wrong. Plato is very specific that the war took place then.

From Critias:


quote:
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Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of
years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place
between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt
within them;
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For two sides to participate in a war, both sides would have to evolve armies and civilizations, so that would make your other explanations irrelevant. The Kurgan stuff is far too recent to be involved with Atlantis, at least as far as what Plato has writen.

As far as picking some other culture in history that might match Plato's other descriptions, since you're putting your Atlantis within the Pillars of Hercules, away from the Atlantic Ocean, and disallowing almost all of Plato's geographic descriptions (not to mention picking and choosing wich other details of Plato's to accept and which to ignore), I'd say any of your other suggestions trend towards being a bit spurious. 
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« Reply #547 on: December 30, 2007, 08:37:50 am »

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I'm bringing Greg's earlier info on bulls, horses, elephants the like in the Americas forward cause it seemed to have been missed by some the last time.


quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:

quote:
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Originally posted by Greg Little:
Des:

"Also, all the gripes I've ever heard against Atlantis having any connection in the Americas is that there are no bulls, horses or elephants."

I've heard that, and it is a completely inaccurate and misinformed idea. They probably weren't in the Americas when Plato lived, but in 10,000 BC, horses, bulls, camels, and elephants were in the Americas.

The Americas had over 50 types of horses during the Pleistocene. They are related genetically to "Old World" horses:

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030241

Horse bones were found at the Gault, Texas Clovis site, dated to 9500 BC.

http://www.athenapub.com/10gault.htm

Bulls, or Bovidae, were in the Americas, but they have been assumed to cross from Siberia to the Americas over Beringia but probably quite early. But then they became generally extinct as did the horses and camels present then at th end of the Pleistocene.


http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/P/PE/PECORA.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/stoneage/mega-list.html


Mastodons and mammoths were both elephants. But while many people call Atlantis a "Bull Cult," they do so to support Thera. Plato's account mentioned no Bull Cult. What he did say was that alternatively every 5th and 6th year, a wild bull was caught by the kings and sacrificed. Thus in any given 10 year period, only one (1) bull would be sacrificed. That doesn't sound like a bull cult. But when the ruins at Thera were discovered, the bull paintings on the wall were heralded as a bull cult, as they probably did depict, and then the idea that Plato spoke of a Bull Cult emerged. In general, people who knew nothing whatsoever about the Pleistocene extinction assumed these animals were not in the Americas. They were, and they were at the time Plato cited the destruction of Atlantis.
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« Reply #548 on: December 30, 2007, 08:38:45 am »

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quote:
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Originally posted by Brig:
Neko, other than very generally with soundings and sonar (which will not pick up ruins), less than 5% of the ocean bottom has been explored.
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Which is a very small amount in comparison with the ocean

 
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« Reply #549 on: December 30, 2007, 08:39:46 am »

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Originally posted by Desiree:

quote:
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 For two sides to participate in a war, both sides would have to evolve armies and civilizations, so that would make your other explanations irrelevant. The Kurgan stuff is far too recent to be involved with Atlantis, at least as far as what Plato has writen.
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And do you have some data that it shows to us that it happened in date that you indicate, in some Earth point?

 
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« Reply #550 on: December 30, 2007, 08:41:11 am »

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Originally posted by Desiree:

quote:
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 For two sides to participate in a war, both sides would have to evolve armies and civilizations, so that would make your other explanations irrelevant. The Kurgan stuff is far too recent to be involved with Atlantis, at least as far as what Plato has written.
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And do you have some data that it shows to us that it happened in date that you indicate, in some Earth point?

 
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« Reply #551 on: December 30, 2007, 08:42:30 am »



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I agree, Deriree. If we try to build a case based on loose connections, we are only fooling ourselves.

We may be able to sell some books, though.   
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« Reply #552 on: December 30, 2007, 08:43:29 am »

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quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:
I don't have to. The oldest surviving manuscript of Plato's, Calcidius, confirms all the earlier dates. Until someone comes up with a location that matches his geography, irregardless of the date (sorry, Jamie, your doesn't even come close), the earlier date stands.

I'd be more than happy to buy into an Atlantis that happened either earlier or later than the date Plato gives, by the way, but there has to be something identifiable with the land he is talking about. There just can't be loose connections like you're making and still call it "Atlantis."
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Fantastic... but, from the fantasy and the deficiency of data, nothing is demonstrated. It is like believing in Papa Noλl or the centaurs...

The serious work is to contribute data to demonstrate that it was not a fantasy of Plato... I do not doubts that the text has errors and fissure. I share what said with wisdom and great common sense, Lewis Spence, a great student and deep investigator of the subject: "It is obvious that we were before a great memory of the world, of which the story of Plato is not more than one of broken and distorted fragments".

Sorry to you, but it is necessary to put the story into the real history, remove it from the world of the fantasy and the ridiculous argumentation in which have put it the persons that are incapable to contribute with real data and serious that ratifies this story.

The serious investigators we have the obligation to remove the myth by the hands of those who "believe" in texts platonic, as if it was a piece of a static and infertile religion.

This work is essential for to know and to understand the beginning of the human civilization, still sunk in the ignorance.

 
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« Reply #553 on: December 30, 2007, 08:44:38 am »

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I still believe that mankinds major civilizations were (11,000 years ago) located on the ocean fronts, near large bodies of water, and in river valleys. Most of the rest of the interiors were locked in a very dry, ice age. A flood, of catasclysmic proportions, whatever its cause, effectively inundated those civilizations and I think they will be found under the ocean at various points of the continental shelves and possibly on now submerged islands.Just as Plato explains, only generally uneducated remnents survived and except for a few names; the old civilizations were forgotten by the vast majority. I just cannot believe that mankind has existed for 200,000 years but only attained high civilization in the past 8000 years. That leaves 192,000 or so years of humans spinning their collective wheels. It does not make sense. 
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« Reply #554 on: December 30, 2007, 08:47:22 am »

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quote:
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Fantastic... but, from the fantasy and the deficiency of data, nothing is demonstrated. It is like believing in Papa Noλl or the centaurs...

The serious work is to contribute data to demonstrate that it was not a fantasy of Plato... I do not doubts that the text has errors and fissure. I share what said with wisdom and great common sense, Lewis Spence, a great student and deep investigator of the subject: "It is obvious that we were before a great memory of the world, of which the story of Plato is not more than one of broken and distorted fragments".

Sorry to you, but it is necessary to put the story into the real history, remove it from the world of the fantasy and the ridiculous argumentation in which have put it the persons that are incapable to contribute with real data and serious that ratifies this story.
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But once again you're deceiving yourself into believing you've uncovered something that bears some resemblance to Plato's Atlantis, Jamie. As I, and others have pointed out to you, it does not. Chariots do not make Atlantis. They are a minor detail that, for all we know, Plato could have added simply to enhance the story, likewise, probably triremes. The way you dwell on these minor details and ignore all the major ones really speaks volumes about your methodology. Where is the circular city? Where are the concentric circles of water and land? How about the flat plain? Not to mention you totally ignore Plato's Atlantic ocean setting, the fact that it's an island, the references to the Pillars of Hercules as well as the time period it is set in. You ignore both the Greeks and the Egyptians knowledge of even their own local geography what you don't have an answer for, you simply ignore. You've thrown out so much of Plato's account to make it fit your theory so as to be unrecognizable, it makes me wonder why you even want to link it to Atlantis at all.

But getting back to the idea that most people believe Atlantis to have been in the Atlantic Ocean, in one fashion or other, that's not like belief in Santa Claus. It's simply what the account says. It makes no sense that Plato would set something the Atlantic that was really in the Middle East. What reason would he have to do that? He was certainly familiar with both places. You want to deride people for believing you, Jamie, it simply makes no sense to believe you. And as for no island like Plato describes ever existing in the Atlantic, I don't make any apologies for that. People have been looking for Atlantis for 2400 years. If the answer was so easy to find chances are it would have been found by now.
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