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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7576 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #525 on: December 30, 2007, 08:00:00 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-20-2006 09:20 PM                       
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That is your problem. Based on which I have read about which you have written here, I concluded that you do not know what is scientific methodology and specifically, which are technical methodologies and of investigation in social sciences, specifically history. I do not know if you know to distinguish between a data authorized by an investigation made by a specialist, a hypothesis of a specialist, that sometimes it is valid, but is necessary to prove, and the simple opinion of a non specialistic person, (“lego” in Spanish). I ignore in which category are you. I either if you distinguishes between knowing and believing. For that reason, I conclude that you do not understand what I have been indicating. These are its not simple opinions formulated at random. Are conclusions based on collected data of investigations and work made by scientists and specialists. They are not my "simple and personal opinion". It is a conclusion sanctioned by investigations. And, I mention each specialist in my conclusions.
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You’re talking down to me only proves that you don’t even know what you’re talking about in the first place, Jamie, and therefore have to resort to a cheap tactic that you believe gives you some kind of an edge. It doesn’t. And if you think it does, ask yourself this, how many converts do you think you’ve made here? More to the point, has anyone you’ve known with any knowledge on Atlantis even supported your theory, at least in part? I doubt it.

But getting to the specifics you cited once again, in the first place, you haven’t quoted any experts here. You quoted Robert Sarmast earlier, another Atlantis investigator (spelling his name wrong incidentally), who also happens to be a follower of the Urantia Book, hardly a scientific document. The other person you quoted was Robert Ballard who, even though he searched the Atlantic to find the Titanic, never took part in an expedition to find Atlantis. He was offering his personal opinion, not his scientific opinion. But the point is, as I mentioned earlier, you aren’t offering any science here, the source for your entire theory happens to be the Bible, hardly a credible historic document. Your references to Ballard and the Black Sea flood only prove my earlier point, that you’ve put together this theory simply based on your faith, nothing more. Fine if you want to take the Bible literally, most would say it is not a historical document, though.

As for not understanding what a specialist does, hardly. But the point is moot because you have never cited any specialists, nor have you ever produced any scientific evidence either, simply alluded to it. You did the same thing in your debate with Herr Saltzman before he was banned, suggesting you had evidence but never producing it. Jamie, who do you think you’re fooling..?


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In order to help you, I go to explains you with an example. You say that the Greeks considered that Gibraltar is narrow. On which data are you based to say such thing? There is some Greek document that specifically talks about the point? It exist some compared data? Or it is the conclusion made by some specialist endorsed by an investigation? Or simply, it is your idea?
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Wow, gee , Jamie, I guess in attempting to refute me, you’re also refuting all the numerous Atlantis investigators that have traditionally put Atlantis, past Gibraltar, in the Atlantic Ocean. Did I come up with this idea? No, it has only been common thought for the last twenty-four hundred years. Lost to you also isn’t just the fact that the Straits match the geographic description, but that all the ancient sources locate the Pillars of Hercules at the Straits of Gibraltar. You want to argue who is speculating here? Check the ancient sources, it is sheer hack work on your part to ignore this.



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The same it happens with mud and seaweed. That is not the opinion or conclusion of a specialist. A specialist never would say something thus without having, at least, some concrete data.
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A specialist (which you’re not) would use common sense, and realize that Aristotle and others also mention the mud, outside of Gibraltar, and that there is probably no Greek word for seaweed.


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 Also you criticize to me because I criticize the other theories.
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No, I criticize you because you don’t have a sound theory, not to mention no evidence.


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What a pity that you bother, but to demonstrate that a hypothesis is correct, this must be put under the critic. From my point of view, all hypothesis of Atlantis must pass three basic tests : Data collection and use of sources : All the data must be sufficiently scientific support. Concordance , is to say that it agrees with the indicated thing in the myth: island, that this one is greater than Libya and Asia, bulls, civilization marine, monotheism (you like or not),
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Plato does NOT mention monotheism, the fact that you believe they had it is, guess what? SPECULATION! Just like you accuse me of doing. Plus, you’re not even talking about an island, let alone one greater than Libya and Asia combined.


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date, agriculture, invasion to Egypt, that exists mud, that are a sea that are not navigable, that a port exists, great population, channels, Straits, that exist a small sea and one greater, a temple, mining, etc. I established ninety (90) data that must be verified. No serious investigator can that way walk saying that he discovered the Atlantis because he found something that could be a piece of the puzzle, without a work of investigation solidly endorsed.
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Jamie, where are any of Plato’s elements in your story? You mention Israel had agriculture, guess what? Every other part of your theory is speculation, supported only by phantom evidence that apparently only you’ve seen.


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Presentation of the conclusions : the investigation must be presented of a way so that it fulfills the minimum requirements of a work of scientific research. It must exist a publication of this work, or an article a scientific magazine or a book. The theory of Spain, Ireland, America, Crete, even Bolivia and perhaps others, has data that to analyze and are presented as it corresponds, thus have a value in itself. Nevertheless, they fail in the second test, the concordance. I must say that the theory of the Atlantic not even surpasses the first test of validity of the theory, because not even there are data that to analyze, single speculations.
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Guess what Jamie? Get your map out cause, last I’ve seen, the Americas, Spain, Ireland, even Morrocco all border the Atlantic and are all candidates for Atlantis, to which I would also add the Azores, Cuba, Bahamas,/Bimini region and the Canary Islands. Now you can sit there and go down the list of what you believe all their various flaws to be, but guess what they all have over your theory? They’re in the Atlantic, no one has to pretend that the Greeks and Egyptians were entirely ignorant of their local geography in order to accept it.


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Uff… To confuse language with writing seems to me terrible..
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I misspoke, how cordial of you to bring it up. Guess I’ll have to start making a list of all your various misspellings, improper word usages, and poor English after all.

 
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Bianca
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« Reply #526 on: December 30, 2007, 08:00:59 am »

nekozuki

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   posted 04-20-2006 09:27 PM                       
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Plato describes the Atlantic...accurately....nuff'said.

 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:02:33 am by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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Bianca
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« Reply #527 on: December 30, 2007, 08:03:32 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-20-2006 09:30 PM                       
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Unless you have a personal interest in making it someplace else!
 
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« Reply #528 on: December 30, 2007, 08:04:25 am »

nekozuki

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   posted 04-20-2006 09:33 PM                       
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Which most people who just absolutely believe today's science has found everything including everything in the Atlantic Ocean will do, try to place it somewhere else other than the Atlantic.

 
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« Reply #529 on: December 30, 2007, 08:05:46 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-20-2006 09:46 PM                       
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I could understand that, if they combed every inch of the ocean floor.They haven't! Jamie keeps quoting Ballard, but he found the Titanic in the North Atlantic, far from any spot thought to be Atlantis.

Did you see that movie Titanic? 
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« Reply #530 on: December 30, 2007, 08:06:35 am »

nekozuki

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   posted 04-20-2006 09:48 PM                       
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Yeah, and I thought it was crap lol.

 
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« Reply #531 on: December 30, 2007, 08:07:22 am »

Desiree

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Well, I suppose you either love it or hate it! I like things about the past so I liked it.

But this really isn't about the movie!

I saw a really interesting special this week about the Titanic, concentrating on the iceberg that struck it, not the ship!
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Bianca
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« Reply #532 on: December 30, 2007, 08:08:17 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-20-2006 10:06 PM                       
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1912 was an unusually cold year. An iceberg broke off from the Greenland ice cap. It floated down into the North Atlantic. While the Titanic was on it's maiden voyage, so was the iceberg! In the dark, the Titanic couldn't see where it was going. When the guys on the mast finally spotted it, it was too late to turn. They actually shouldn't have turned, it would have been better to hit it straight on. It would have been a big jolt, but the ship would have held. The iceberg not only hit the top part, it hit underneath, too, which was the killer.

Ths ship burst open, within a couple of hours it sunk. 1500 people died in the cold waters of the North Atlantic, frozen to death.

The really odd, creepy thing? The documentary actually had the only known picture of the iceberg in it. It was like this big white mountain in the middle of the ocean in this grainy black and white photo. Really cool special, the whole thing followed the iceberg's journey, not the Titanic's.

Later, as it went further south, it naturally melted in the warmer waters.
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« Reply #533 on: December 30, 2007, 08:09:16 am »

Rich

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   posted 04-21-2006 07:40 AM                       
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Timaeus actually has 1 reference to the Atlantic. Critias has several.

The Myrina myth points away from the Atlantic.

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Here is the timaeus reference:
"from your legions to be erased out of Atlanticus Sea/Men the war with the all tribes and nations inflicting."

-- an unconventional translation here, that is probably wrong, is replacing the word "sea" with "men". "Mari" is most commonly translated as Sea. And in the context of Atlantic, the meaning seems clear. However, sometimes "mari" is short-hand for "maritus", which means "men". This is the only reference to the Atlantic in Timaeus.

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"May be therefore with our each the credulity you consume to the affirmation of the ancient men, because Terras and of Caelus the son may be Ocean and [Tethys], of these again Saturn and [Rhea] and Phorcus, of Saturn to the leek and Rhea the offsprings Jupiter and Juno and the other which are in the mouth of the men and with the minds and about the brotherhood of which the rumour is celebrated; " -- Plato's Timaeus

Terra + Caelus (Gaea + Uranus)
Oceanus + Tethys
Saturn + Rhea, Phorcus
Jupiter + Hera

Note: Plato says Saturn is the son of Oceanus, and not the son of Uranus. Phorcus is the brother of saturn. This follows the Orphic Genealogy.

Orphic discussion:
http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/titans.html

 
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« Reply #534 on: December 30, 2007, 08:17:02 am »




Greg Little
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   posted 04-21-2006 10:03 AM                       
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Jaime:

You wrote: "In addition, in the region it indicates by George [Central America] is not nothing indicates to us that there were bulls, elephants, cultivated fields, channels, great cities or indications that were a great center civilized something more ago there than 10 thousand years... "




Fact: Bulls, elephants, and horses were plentiful in the Americas until the "extinction event" happened

circa 9000 BC. This is common knowledge outlined in countless high school textbooks.




As to a 10,000-year old great civilization of fields, channels, and great cities in the Americas, where is such evidence in the Mediterranean? I'm not aware of any 10,000-year old cities that have been uncovered in the Middle-East or anywhere else. If such exists, I'd like to know about it. I know that a site in Turkey, one in Malta, and several off India date to about 8000-years ago, but where in the Mediterranean or Middle-East are the 10,000-year old cities?

Thanks. 
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« Reply #535 on: December 30, 2007, 08:18:11 am »

nekozuki

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Exactly, it has to match up to anywhere around Plato's date. And Jaime every ancient culture had something to do with bulls, does that make them Atlantis? No. And yes, there were bulls, elephants, and horses in the americas before the Ice Age completely disappeared, in other words a mass extinction, was it all caused by the Ice Age going away, obviously not because there is still those kind of animals around today so what happened so near the Atlantic for that to happen? Who knows, but it might point to the Carolina Bays incident.
 
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« Reply #536 on: December 30, 2007, 08:19:28 am »

Brig

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Some artist in ancient south America knew what elephants looked like; whether he carried that knowlege here from the old world or whether he saw them on this continent for himself.The carvings are preColumbus and they are real.
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« Reply #537 on: December 30, 2007, 08:20:25 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

I insist, we see the theory of the Atlantic here. And this theory lacks an appropriate research methodology and lacks tests that can be analyzed.

Here we are not seeing me theory. If you he wants to discuss mine, you are the commentaries in Atlantis was Israel...

It is not possible makes a debate whichever I ask an absolutely specific thing to you and you respond generalities, emphasizing what you believe. What is that of common sense? Still I do not know which establishes scientific tests in an investigation on the basis of the common sense... That ratifies to me once again that you do not know what that is a methodology of scientific research...
 
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« Reply #538 on: December 30, 2007, 08:21:15 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-21-2006 06:10 PM                       
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Jamie,

You're not in any position to lecture me or anyone else on the methodology of scientific research. Not only do you throw out almost all of Plato's account in a shallow attempt to make your theory work, your main source happens to be the Bible, which is not a scientific document. Ask anyone.

Not only do you ignore most of Plato's account, you also ignore evidence when I post it here, too. I posted references to the Phoenician account of sailing around Africa three times now (proof that your whole theory of mistaken geography is wrong) and each time you've ignored it. Greg also references the bulls, elephants and horses were in the Americas earlier:


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Fact: Bulls, elephants, and horses were plentiful in the Americas until the "extinction event" happened circa 9000 BC. This is common knowledge outlined in countless high school textbooks.
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I actually posted his evidence for this on this very thread one page ago, not only did you ignore that, I see you ignored his own post on the matter as well.

Plato does not mention monotheism, nor does he mention Atlantis originating agriculture, or even half the things you attribute to it. All the historical sources agree that Atlantis was in the Atlantic, as for archaeological evidence of Atlantis being in the Atlantic, why not ask Greg? He's actually been diving there and is in a better position to know. A real scientist would be open to new evidence, not remain close-minded against it. 
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« Reply #539 on: December 30, 2007, 08:23:06 am »

Desiree

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Originally posted by Greg Little:
Jaime:

You wrote: "In addition, in the region it indicates by George [Central America] is not nothing indicates to us that there were bulls, elephants, cultivated fields, channels, great cities or indications that were a great center civilized something more ago there than 10 thousand years... "



Fact: Bulls, elephants, and horses were plentiful in the Americas until the "extinction event" happened

circa 9000 BC. This is common knowledge outlined in countless high school textbooks.



As to a 10,000-year old great civilization of fields, channels, and great cities in the Americas, where is such evidence in the Mediterranean? I'm not aware of any 10,000-year old cities that have been uncovered in the Middle-East or anywhere else. If such exists, I'd like to know about it. I know that a site in Turkey, one in Malta, and several off India date to about 8000-years ago, but where in the Mediterranean or Middle-East are the 10,000-year old cities?

Thanks.
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Hi Greg, that is a problem!

Catal Hoyuk and Jerico date to about 8,000 bc, and from what I hear, Crete, another spot people like to place Atlantis in, wasn't even occupied until 6,000 bc. Like a lot places, they are too recent to have anything to do with a literal interpretation of Plato's Atlantis. 
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