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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7826 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #495 on: December 30, 2007, 07:15:09 am »

nekozuki

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No, Jaime. Plato is clearly talking about describing the Atlantic Ocean when he talks about the location of Atlantis. Everyone sees it but you.

[ 04-17-2006, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: nekozuki ]

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« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 07:28:57 am by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #496 on: December 30, 2007, 07:17:56 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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 Originally posted by George Erikson:

Brig, Speaking of bad translations...

Please read Plato's Timaeus and Critias translated by Sir Desmond Lee (Penguin Classics, 1965). The following passage is on pp 37-38 of the 1977 pbk edition.

"Among all the wonderful achievements recorded here of your city, one great act of courage is outstanding. Our records tell how your city checked a great power which arrogantly advanced from its base in the Atlantic Ocean to attack the cities of Europe and Asia. For in those days the Atlantic was navigable. There was an island opposite the strait which you call (so you say) the Pillars of Heracles, an island larger than Libya and Asia combined; from it travellers could in those days reach the other islands, and from them the whole opposite continent which surrounds what can truly be called the ocean. For the sea within the strait we are talking about is like a lake with a narrow entrance; the outer ocean is the real ocean and the land which entirely surrounds it is properly termed continent. On this island of Atlantis had arisen a powerful and remarkable dynasty of kings, who ruled the whole island and many other islands as well and parts of the continent. And, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."
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The Egyptians speak about a sea small, almost like a great lake, with one narrow entrance and non navigable. In addition, it is a sea smaller than another neighboring sea, which if the true ocean can be called. The Egyptians use the word sea (pielago), the not ocean (okeano). The Atlantic Ocean does not have any of these characteristics: it is enormous, it is navigable, it does not have no narrow entrance, not this mud plenty. If the myth speaks of the Atlantic Ocean, Which is that other greater sea still? Nobody rationally can accept that it is the same sea, because apparently has the same name.


quote:
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 Plato had to be talking about the Americas. Outside the straits of Gibraltar (Pillars of Heracles) it is the opposite continent lying directly across the Atlantic Ocean. It is as large as Libya and Asia (Greek def.) combined. Parts of it were thought to be an impassable sea, Sargasso Sea). It was large enough to sustain a great power and ten kingdoms. 9,000 years before Plato larger areas of the Americas (Florida, the Yucatan, Caribbean Islands, Cuban land bridge, Bimini, the Bahamas, etc.) were inundated by great floods that came from the sudden release of great lakes at the end of the last Ice Age.
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The myths speak about mud, not seaweed, and these it do not so abundant for to block more than a small zone of that enormous sea.

In addition, in the region it indicates by George is not nothing indicates to us that there were bulls, elephants, cultivated fields, channels, great cities or indications that were a great center civilized something more ago there than 10 thousand years...

Reason why I have investigated, without a doubt the atlantean arrived at some moment at America. All the work of old navigators in America of George, I consider solid and very serious. I concluded just like he and Ivar Zapp. Study in special the drawings of Nazca, that are a map of the world with all the navigable routes known then, establishing all the civilized set up does one 6 to 7 thousand years. This map combines constellations with types of specific animals of each region, which are symbols unmistakable. But its colonization began after the disaster, is to say about 7 thousand years ago, not before.


quote:
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Sightlines from groups of spheres point directly toward Easter Island, Stonehenge, and Giza Like Polynesian sightings stones found in the Gilbert Islands at Arorae, the spheres indicate sailing routes, this time at the crossroads of worldwide navigational routes (at the middle of the Americas). Among items found in Costa Rica that repeatedly stress the navigational function of the spheres are Atlantean figures holding shallow concave bowls ( to determine zenith stars), repeated depictions of the Atlantean (Sailor's) Cross, and Stone Lapidas, found only in Costa Rica, so thinly carved that they mimic precisely the guara boards used in raft navigation by Peruvians at the time Europeans first encountered the "New World."
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These places are stamped or marked in the American routes because they are the facilities to follow the precession of the equinoxes there, key to guide by it stars. The map of Piri Reis puts the center geodesic in Gize, not elsewhere.


quote:
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 Why take Plato's word for it? As the founder of the Academy in Athens he was known as a man of truth. When he presented an allegory or story he identified it as such. He repeatedly said, "Atlantis was fact, not fiction," and that the story was strange but true." He presented his revered ancestor, Solon, and his respected teacher, Socrates, to tell the story. Plato would never have sullied these two great men a story he made up.
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I share it totally. But, my conclusion is that Plato confused a geographic places with others places one, by its great similarity. The Greeks of their time knew the Mediterranean and something of the Atlantic.

In any case, these data are very interesting. Later I will make a pair more of commentaries. Now I must sleep and tomorrow, I must work... Thus it is the life.
 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 07:30:13 am by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #497 on: December 30, 2007, 07:31:10 am »

nekozuki

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But the Sargasso Sea does need some investigating when it comes to Atlantis, wouldn't you think?

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With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita
 
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« Reply #498 on: December 30, 2007, 07:32:02 am »

Desiree

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quote:
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The Egyptians speak about a sea small, almost like a great lake, with one narrow entrance and non navigable. In addition, it is a sea smaller than another neighboring sea, which if the true ocean can be called. The Egyptians use the word sea (pielago), the not ocean (okeano). The Atlantic Ocean does not have any of these characteristics: it is enormous, it is navigable, it does not have no narrow entrance, not this mud plenty. If the myth speaks of the Atlantic Ocean, Which is that other greater sea still? Nobody rationally can accept that it is the same sea, because apparently has the same name.
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The narrow entrance would be the entrance to Gibraltar. Man, it's so obvious to everyone but you. The lesser sea is the Mediterranean, the greater sea is the Atlantic. I think you're the only one I've seen question this. "Noody can rationally accept this?" Come on, Jamie, how many people have you ever met that haven't?


quote:
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The myths speak about mud, not seaweed, and these it do not so abundant for to block more than a small zone of that enormous sea.
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Did the Greeks even have a name for seeweed? Look it up. I'm betting they didn't. 
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« Reply #499 on: December 30, 2007, 07:33:17 am »

Desiree

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quote:
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Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:
Dear Brig, the one of Mu continent is clearly an invention without some base of reality. Nobody with some scientific pretension can use it like argument. George, simply shining your commentaries...
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I think George's comments were meant to say that Atlantis wasn't a big continent in the Atlantic, not that it wasn't in the Atlantic at all. His own theory (with Ivar Zapp) places Atlantis in the Americas. 
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« Reply #500 on: December 30, 2007, 07:34:11 am »

Desiree

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   posted 04-18-2006 12:53 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
No, Jaime. Plato is clearly talking about describing the Atlantic Ocean when he talks about the location of Atlantis. Everyone sees it but you.
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Damn right, Neko!
 
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« Reply #501 on: December 30, 2007, 07:35:08 am »

Desiree

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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
But the Sargasso Sea does need some investigating when it comes to Atlantis, wouldn't you think?
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I find the Sargasso Sea really interesting, Neko! I'm going to look into it later on when I have more time.
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docyabut
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I`d have to agree with Jamie, the Egyptians never travel to the atlantic ocean, they got the story from someone else, most likey the phoenicans that the king of Sais sent around Africa.

Plato said atlantis was not the real name and in refering to bodies of water.

Some scholars believe that Oceanus originally represented all bodies of salt water, including the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, the two largest bodies known to the ancient Greeks. However, as geography became more accurate, Oceanus came to represent the stranger, more unknown waters of the Atlantic Ocean (also called the "Ocean Sea"), while Poseidon ruled over the Mediterranean.

Posedian ruled atlantis, if atlantis was in the ocean surely the story would say Oceanus ruled over atlantis, not poseidon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus 
 
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« Reply #502 on: December 30, 2007, 07:36:34 am »

Desiree

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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
But the Sargasso Sea does need some investigating when it comes to Atlantis, wouldn't you think?
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I find the Sargasso Sea really interesting, Neko! I'm going to look into it later on when I have more time. 
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« Reply #503 on: December 30, 2007, 07:37:21 am »

docyabut
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I`d have to agree with Jamie, the Egyptians never travel to the atlantic ocean, they got the story from someone else, most likey the phoenicans that the king of Sais sent around Africa.

Plato said atlantis was not the real name and in refering to bodies of water.

Some scholars believe that Oceanus originally represented all bodies of salt water, including the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean, the two largest bodies known to the ancient Greeks. However, as geography became more accurate, Oceanus came to represent the stranger, more unknown waters of the Atlantic Ocean (also called the "Ocean Sea"), while Poseidon ruled over the Mediterranean.

Posedian ruled atlantis, if atlantis was in the ocean surely the story would say Oceanus ruled over atlantis, not poseidon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanus 
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« Reply #504 on: December 30, 2007, 07:38:07 am »

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Did the Greeks even have a name for seeweed? Look it up. I'm betting they didn't.

The egyptian did the sea of reeds:)( weeds)so surly they would have said reeds not mud. 
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« Reply #505 on: December 30, 2007, 07:38:58 am »

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Reed (plant), a plant with a tall strong hollow stem that grows in large groups in shallow water or on marshy ground.
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« Reply #506 on: December 30, 2007, 07:39:47 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:
The narrow entrance would be the entrance to Gibraltar. Man, it's so obvious to everyone but you. The lesser sea is the Mediterranean, the greater sea is the Atlantic. I think you're the only one I've seen question this. "Noody can rationally accept this?" Come on, Jamie, how many people have you ever met that haven't?
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quote:
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Did the Greeks even have a name for seeweed? Look it up. I'm betting they didn't.
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Yes, Gibraltar is a narrow entrance to space, to 80 kilometers of height. This idea is as absurd as to say that the Greeks, a marine people, did not have a word for seeweed and they confused it with mud. And sure, the Mediterranean Sea is like a great lake.

Please, present intelligent and documented arguments.

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« Reply #507 on: December 30, 2007, 07:40:48 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Whatever it has studied Greek mythology, it knows that the Greeks denominated titans to the seas and titanides to the great lakes, that were children of Gea (the Earth) and Uranus (the Sky). The seas were the Ocean, Ceo, Cryo, Hyperion, and Chronos. Titanides was Temis, Rhea, Tetis, Tea, Mnemosine and Febe. These seas and lakes were specific places, and according to the map of Anaximando, the titan Ocean is the sea that surrounded all well-known Earth. That is to say, the present Atlantic was part of Okeano. This also gives a perception us of the world known by them. Homero also considered that the Ocean was the sea that surrounded the world.

Also the version of the pelasgos, old inhabitants of Greece exists, previous to Indo-European, that they present a creative goddess, the Eurinome, seemed to Yavhe, that it separated the Earth of the Sky. After the creation, she created 7 planetary powers, (like the seven days of the week of the Hebrew version) represented by seven (again the 7) even ones of a titan and one titanide: Tia and Hyperion for the Sun; Febe and Atlantes for the Moon; Dionne and Cryo for Mars; Metis and Geo for Mercury; Temis and Euromidontes for Jupiter; Tetis and the Ocean for Venus; Rea and Cronos for Saturn. All them were the guardians of the time.

Now, in real terms, and like all mythology in general, these stories you tell several things us. First, the process of compression of the man the universe that surrounds to us. Second, the process of organization of the time through the knowledge of the movements of the sky and the stars and planets: Third, the disorder of climatic phenomena (giant, Cyclopes, the hecatonquiros) There emphasize it battles of Zeus against titans (seas); giant (volcanoes) and Typhoon (great storms), among others. In fourth place, the process of expansion of the civilization. (Uranus and soon Prometheus)

This is narrow for the Greeks of Plato`s time: At the time of Leónidas I (480 BC) the passage of Thermopilae (Θερμοπύλαι Termophilai) was a close way (probably of about 13 meters wide) under the cliff. At the modern time the deposits of the Esperqueo river have extended it until a width to about 1.5 kilometres. Not 10 times this measurement (today), like is the Straits of Gibraltar, that has 14 kilometres in its narrower part.

[ 04-19-2006, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Jaime Manuschevich ]

 
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« Reply #508 on: December 30, 2007, 07:42:48 am »

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Whatever caused the submergence of Atlantis, whether it was somewhere off the coasts of America, the mid-Atlantic or just before (Spartel or the like) the Pillars of Hercules; was definitely a major calamity. Such distruction could have caused the ocean in the vicinity of the Straits to swell with mud and be no longer safe for shipping for a period of time. The waters before the Pillars are, relatively speaking rather shallow. If the Greeks couldn't get through the Straits of Gibraltor they would naturally assume the ocean no longer navigable. 
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« Reply #509 on: December 30, 2007, 07:43:50 am »

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Isn't there evidence of an asteroid crater off of the Carolinas?

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