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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7574 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #480 on: December 29, 2007, 12:41:20 pm »






nekozuki

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I've really gotta know, since the Guanches talk about their home sinking into the sea what does this

have to do with Israel. The Canary Islands are very far off from Israel.

 
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« Reply #481 on: December 29, 2007, 12:42:42 pm »

Desiree

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Fer sure, Neko! The Guanches, Basques, and Berbers all have the same legend, of coming from a sunken homeland to the west and they all came to the shores of the Atlantic.

Lots of people claim the Olmecs came from west Africa, the Mande Tribe. Mainstream scientists all say that there is no genetic evidence to support this, but I haven't been able to find any real genetic report to find out just where the Olmecs came from.

Here's about the Mande:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mand%C3%A9

Here's a genetic report that seems to support the African origin, but these things get out of date pretty quickly so I won't swear by it!

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:RI6f6d3q7yoJ:www.geocities.com/olmec982000/afmaya2.pdf+olmec,+genetic+evidence,+origins&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=13

Here's one about the journey of man, too long to print:

http://utopia.utexas.edu/articles/alcalde/wells.html?sec=science&sub=biology 
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« Reply #482 on: December 29, 2007, 12:44:22 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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but I doubt very much it was Palestine.
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At what moment I said Palestine? Always I took about Israel or Canaan... that is the cause of the aversion to my theory?

It is not possible to cover the sun with a finger. Already there are several investigators who say the same: Egypt, Nubian, the coast of the Red Sea, Mesopotamia... the Middle East... That is the cradle of the civilization and navigation and not a nonexistent island in the middle of Atlantic Ocean... And the Bible is half history and half moral lessons, as Atlantis, and other thousands and thousands of books… Do you has reading to Flavio Josefo, or also he is a propagandist one?

 
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« Reply #483 on: December 29, 2007, 12:45:35 pm »

nekozuki

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Don't forget that some Native American tribes talk about their home that sunk in the Sunrise Sea (the Atlantic Ocean) This story is only found among the Mid-west and Eastern tribes. Not too mention the Haplogroup X DNA that is found only on both sides of the Atlantic, and the first traces of it where in 20,000 BC.

 
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« Reply #484 on: December 29, 2007, 12:47:14 pm »

rajesh

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The Basque question with reference to Atlantis may very typical. They both may be related with common ancient Dragon Gods:

http://www.geocities.com/rkmishra403/RAMishra_7.html?1144536591310

http://www.geocities.com/rkmishra403/RAMishra_index.html

 
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« Reply #485 on: December 29, 2007, 12:48:44 pm »

Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Don't forget that some Native American tribes talk about their home that sunk in the Sunrise Sea (the Atlantic Ocean) This story is only found among the Mid-west and Eastern tribes. Not too mention the Haplogroup X DNA that is found only on both sides of the Atlantic, and the first traces of it where in 20,000 BC.
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The sun sunset always for the east from any Earth point. It indicates only one direction, and that direction is the correct one: the east. It does not indicate that they came form an island in middle of Atlantic. I suppose that you know that Mu is only an invention of badly translator a Mayan text ...

In relation to the presence of Haplogroup X DNA to both sides of the Atlantic, the hunters of great prey, I do not deny that they had passed groups of occasional way from Europe to America. But they were not sailors mainly, were hunters. They represent in America the second cultural horizon previous for the presence and later colonization of Semitic peoples.

As far as the stories of guanches, the sunk Earth myths are repeated in many Earth places, by where of first civilization extended it, that includes from India to America... The Island Canary is in the way, thus does not have anything of special that also has conserved the story there. In the Bible, the Popul Vu and Manú Myth, is called the deluge…


quote:
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 1) An indirect evidence of Olmec and Mayan relatedness is suggested, further supporting the notion that Olmecs may have been the precursors of Mayans; 2) Language and genetics do not completely correlate in microenvironmental studies; and 3) Peopling of the Americas was probably more complex than postulated by Greenberg and others (three peopling waves).
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Many hypothetical words in this study ("indirect evidence" or "may have been" or "was probably more complex"). I will wait that the studies are finished before speculating... The study already is In two or three years, we will know far better as the world filled and as point of origin and arrival of the migrations were them. I read in the publication of March of National Geographic an article on the subject, with a preadvance of this great genetic map. There was nothing contradicted what I indicate. To the inverse one, there were several points that ratify it what I am indicating with my theory. You can read the magazine...

As far as mandingas o mandle between Olmecs, so that no?. For that way passed the Atlantean... Surprise… in the same region of western Africa (Mali. Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Ghana, Niger, Nigeria, Togo) is spoken until today the Hausa language, that is a Afro-Asiatic or Semitic language. (page 270-271 of my book) Also there is evidence of iron smelting (1000 BC).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_language
 
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« Reply #486 on: December 29, 2007, 12:49:55 pm »

nekozuki

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That's kind of a weak argument Jaime. You in no way whatsoever disproved that the fact that Haplogroup X is found in only both sides of the Atlantic is at least some evidence that there was an island of great importance in the Atlantic. The "X" indicates of unknown origin. I don't see Israel carrying this DNA group and even if it did, it would be labeled other than "X" since the origin would be known.

 
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« Reply #487 on: December 29, 2007, 12:52:33 pm »

Desiree

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   posted 04-16-2006 12:28 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:

quote:
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but I doubt very much it was Palestine.
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At what moment I said Palestine? Always I took about Israel or Canaan... that is the cause of the aversion to my theory?

It is not possible to cover the sun with a finger. Already there are several investigators who say the same: Egypt, Nubian, the coast of the Red Sea, Mesopotamia... the Middle East... That is the cradle of the civilization and navigation and not a nonexistent island in the middle of Atlantic Ocean... And the Bible is half history and half moral lessons, as Atlantis, and other thousands and thousands of books… Do you has reading to Flavio Josefo, or also he is a propagandist one?
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Wow, so, because I don't swallow any part of your theory you accuse me of anti-semitism? Very

scientific, Jamie. Yep, you're going to make a lot of converts with that attitude. 
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« Reply #488 on: December 29, 2007, 12:54:15 pm »

Desiree

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In relation to the presence of Haplogroup X DNA to both sides of the Atlantic, the hunters of great prey, I do not deny that they had passed groups of occasional way from Europe to America. But they were not sailors mainly, were hunters. They represent in America the second cultural horizon previous for the presence and later colonization of Semitic peoples.
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Wrong, that's just conjecture, that's not what the scientific literature says.


quote:
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As far as the stories of guanches, the sunk Earth myths are repeated in many Earth places, by where of first civilization extended it, that includes from India to America... The Island Canary is in the way, thus does not have anything of special that also has conserved the story there. In the Bible, the Popul Vu and Manú Myth, is called the deluge…
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Like heck, the story came from the Guanches, and even though they were all wiped out, a pretty good picture was derived of their myths and organization before they were wiped out. Their DNA is similar to the Berbers and Basques and all three have the story of coming from a sunken homeland in the Atlantic.

Of course, you ignore the Guanches story, though, just like you ignore the Berbers, Bazques, Cuba, Cay Sal, Bimini, Andros, reports of ruins in the Azores & the Ampere Seamounts, Pharoah Necho II, the voyage around Africa, Haplogroup X DNA, and, of course, Plato's dialogues, all of which paint a pretty clear picture that Atlantis was in the Atlantic, apparently because it's all incovenient to your theory.

Jamie, why not just come right out and say you want to study ancient civilizations in the Bible? Cause that's the only thing it looks like to me.



quote:
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As far as mandingas o mandle between Olmecs, so that no?. For that way passed the Atlantean... Surprise… in the same region of western Africa (Mali. Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Ghana, Niger, Nigeria, Togo) is spoken until today the Huasa language, that is a Afro-Asiatic or Semitic language. (page 270-271 of my book) Also there is evidence of iron smelting (1000 BC
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If you read the article I linked to, you could see that there's actually no genetic evidence linking the Mande with the Olmecs. But even if there were, it doesn't rule out a connection to an Atlantic based Atlantis. It would stand to reason that all the people on the coast of either continent would have the same DNA as the people in the middle, which is the point that Neko has been trying to make to you. 
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« Reply #489 on: December 29, 2007, 12:55:28 pm »

Desiree

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Originally posted by nekozuki:
That's kind of a weak argument Jaime. You in no way whatsoever disproved that the fact that Haplogroup X is found in only both sides of the Atlantic is at least some evidence that there was an island of great importance in the Atlantic. The "X" indicates of unknown origin. I don't see Israel carrying this DNA group and even if it did, it would be labeled other than "X" since the origin would be known.
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Good point, Neko, the 'x' would mean it's of unknown origin.



I can imagine what Jamie will say in response, so I'll put it out there for him: the Israel DNA was in there eventually but it got watered down after all the years of wandering from the Middle East. We all know that all the people in the world just had to be born in the Middle East!
 
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« Reply #490 on: December 29, 2007, 12:56:35 pm »

nekozuki

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Archaeologists are actually about to label the Indus River valley civilization older than Mesopotamia which gives more credit to the Manu flood story. The spiritual countries were the ones that survived the flood, the ones that were corrupted didn't. That's what happened to Atlantis, they got too big for their britches.

 
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« Reply #491 on: December 29, 2007, 12:59:09 pm »

Carolyn Silver

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Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.
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« Reply #492 on: December 30, 2007, 07:11:59 am »

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Maybe I missed something, I haven't been on this thread for a while, but Jamie stated that Mu was a badly translated Mayan manuscript.......uh Jamie, it was James Churchward that badly mistranslated an ancient India indian transcript.He not only poorly translated it, but managed to lose the original and misplace the exact temple he found it in and lost the temple priest who was supposedly the one who helped him translate it. Now with those facts if you or anyone else puts much credence in his story of lost Mu.....well thats your business and I'm sure you still put your lost teeth under a pillow for the Tooth Fairy.   
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« Reply #493 on: December 30, 2007, 07:13:10 am »

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Brig, Speaking of bad translations...

Please read Plato's Timaeus and Critias translated by Sir Desmond Lee (Penguin Classics, 1965). The following passage is on pp 37-38 of the 1977 pbk edition.

"Among all the wonderful achievements recorded here of your city, one great act of courage is outstanding. Our records tell how your city checked a great power which arrogantly advanced from its base in the Atlantic Ocean to attack the cities of Europe and Asia. For in those days the Atlantic was navigable. There was an island opposite the strait which you call (so you say) the Pillars of Heracles, an island larger than Libya and Asia combined; from it travellers could in those days reach the other islands, and from them the whole opposite continent which surrounds what can truly be called the ocean. For the sea within the strait we are talking about is like a lake with a narrow entrance; the outer ocean is the real ocean and and the land which entirely surrounds it is properly termed continent. On this island of Atlantis had arisen a powerful and remarkable dynasty of kings, who ruled the whole island and many other islands as well and parts of the continent. And, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."

Plato had to be talking about the Americas. Outside the straits of Gibraltar (Pillars of Heracles) it is the opposite continent lying directly across the Atlantic Ocean. It is as large as Libya and Asia (Greek def.) combined. Parts of it were thought to be an impassable sea, Sargasso Sea). It was large enough to sustain a great power and ten kingdoms. 9,000 years before Plato larger areas of the Americas (Florida, the Yucatan, Caribbean Islands, Cuban land bridge, Bimini, the Bahamas, etc.) were inundated by great floods that came from the sudden release of great lakes at the end of the last Ice Age.

Why take Plato's word for it? As the founder of the Academy in Athens he was known as a man of truth. When he presented an allegory or story he identified it as such. He repeatedly said, "Atlantis was fact, not fiction," and that the story was strange but true." He presented his revered ancestor, Solon, and his respected teacher, Socrates, to tell the story. Plato would never have sullied these two great men a story he made up.

Why take Desmond's Lee's translation? In his popular 19th century rendering Ignatius Donnelly said Atlantis was a land that stood "in front of" the Pillars of Heracles, not a "continent opposite" to the strait. If you take Donnelly's key translation Atlantis would have to be in the eastern Atlantic near Iberia. Lee was knighted for his work in translating Greek. Donnelly was a business man and Atlantoligist, not a Greek scholar. He did mange to mislead many people, however. There is no geological evidence of an island-continent ever existing in the Atlantic. The few small islands that have been submerged could not have supported Atlantis.


What about Thera? To qoute Allison:
"-Way too small (hardly an island-continent, not big enough to sustain 10 separate kingdoms)
-Inside the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar), not outside them.
-The city buildings don't look a bit like Plato's.
-Red, black and white rocks are found almost everywhere there are volcanoes.
-time period, 1400 bc. is 8000 years after the date that Plato gives.
-Santorini (or even Crete) were not military powers.
-Santorini (or even Crete) didn't control Spain, Morocco or any of the areas that Plato spoke of, it's influence was in the western Mediterranean.
-The disaster that destroyed Santorini did not destroy Cretan culture, it actually went on 200 years after it happened.
-Why call someplace Atlantis if it wasn't in the Atlantic Ocean?"


What about southeast Asia? It does not border the Atlantic. If sea people from SE Asia advanced on the Mediterranean they would come from the Indian Ocean, not the Atlantic.

I think people must seriously consider Plato's words, and understand how Donnelly misinterpreted them and mislead a great many people.


George Erikson
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« Reply #494 on: December 30, 2007, 07:14:08 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Dear Brig, the one of Mu continent is clearly an invention without some base of reality. Nobody with some scientific pretension can use it like argument. George, simply shining your commentaries...

 
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