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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7574 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #390 on: December 29, 2007, 08:04:11 am »






nekozuki

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   posted 04-05-2006 07:13 PM                       
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Sorry Jaime but after all of your observations I still don't see how Plato could be referring to Israel when he was talking about an island that sank in the Atlantic.

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« Reply #391 on: December 29, 2007, 08:05:19 am »






Tom Hebert1
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  posted 04-05-2006 07:31 PM                       
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I agree, Neko. Desiree has given excellent arguments why Plato's Atlantis can be nowhere except in the Atlantic. 
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« Reply #392 on: December 29, 2007, 08:06:27 am »








nekozuki

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   posted 04-05-2006 07:40 PM                       
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Sometimes I hate repeating myself but here it goes again and this pretty is convincing itself.


Atlantis was more than likely not it's name. The Atlantic Ocean was named even before Plato's time as maps of that era suggest. Plato was obviously giving hints to an island in the Atlantic, hence the name Atlantis. Some people try to say he is referring to the Atlas mountains, wasn't the Atlantic Ocean named after Atlas also therefore it goes either way. But as Boreasi has been pointing out time and time again, Plato was clearly describing the Atlantic Ocean, and with satellite photos this is more than enough proof.
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« Reply #393 on: December 29, 2007, 08:08:01 am »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Rate Member   posted 04-05-2006 08:18 PM                       
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Nekosuki:

If you wish to discuss about the possibility that the writings of Plato talk about Israel, we can do it in http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541;p=2

There it will be the answer to the question of Nekosuki.

Here we are analyzing if it were or not in the Atlantic...


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I agree, Neko. Desiree has given excellent arguments why Plato's Atlantis can be nowhere except in the Atlantic.
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And to my opinion, Desiree has not confirmed anything here. There are not bulls, there is not island, there are not channels, there are not constructions, there are not boats, there is not mud, etc...

All to indicate until now by Desiree is hypothetical constructions, on non proven facts, of pronouncement questioned by sciences, etc. In particular, nothing of anything...


quote:
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 Atlantis was more than likely not it's name. The Atlantic Ocean was named even before Plato's time as maps of that era suggest. Plato was obviously giving hints to an island in the Atlantic, hence the name Atlantis. Some people try to say he is referring to the Atlas mountains, wasn't the Atlantic Ocean named after Atlas also therefore it goes either way. But as Boreasi has been pointing out time and time again, Plato was clearly describing the Atlantic Ocean, and with satellite photos this is more than enough proof.
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Nekosuki.

There is no a only test that demonstrates that that sea was known with the name of Atlantic before Herodotus... that lived after Solon and before Plato. Its previous name for the Greeks was Okeano, by the name of one of Titans, that today we know talks about seas.

Either there is no some type of satellites photo that proves nothing of anything...
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« Reply #394 on: December 29, 2007, 08:09:46 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-06-2006 12:18 AM                       
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quote:
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In your explanation about the theory of Atlantic, you practically change everything, without contributes a single validated test, support in many speculations and loose data processings.
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You're not hanging that stuff on me, I haven't changed anything. Plato says Atlantic Ocean, I say Atlantic Ocean, you're the one trying to say it was in the Red Sea, with apparently the only proof of that being geological data that no one has seen and your own opinion that Plato was mistaken.

Your work is not science, you try and say it is, but there is no science or even data to support your work.


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In addition, you change several data of the myth, reinterpreted to your way with an enormous freedom, to fit them to the theory in that you believe:
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Misinterpreted??
Plato says "Atlantic Ocean," "Pillars of Hercules," and that Atlantis was an "island."
You're the one wanting to put it within the Pillars of Hercules, making it a peninsula, not only that, a region that the Greeks already knew well.

You allow yourself so much latitude to interepret the facts you might as well be talking about a different place.



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You changes seaweed by mud.
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I haven't done that, historically they've done that, I mentioned Columbus, it's also in Andrew Collins' book, "Gateway to Atlantis."

Funny thing, you want to argue about seaweed vs. mud and neither is in your theory.


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You change to no navigable seas by navigable seas.
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That's wrong, too, if the Atlantic was so navigable, why wasn't America discorered earlier?


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You put bulls where its does not have: the centre of the Atlantic Ocean.
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I never said that, I said bull worship of one type or another was all around the Mediterranean, and it was, too.


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You despise paragraphs of the text without basing them, since according to you the bulls are not a key, contravening the opinion of many specialists.
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I don't get what you're trying to say here, so I will let it pass.


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You speak of islands that do not exist and not existed, as if its were real.
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Which islands was I referring to, the only ones I can remember are Spartel, Cuba and the Azores, which all still exist.


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You assign to Egyptian a level of knowledge that worldwide geography that never they had, without contributes to no test.
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You don't think they knew of the Red Sea when it was right next to them?

And the Egptian pharoahs sent the Phoencians to sail around the Atlantic even before Solon was said to first hear of the tale so of course they knew of it. They even had a name for it,"the Western Ocean."


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You rejects conclusions of validated scientists, - Ballard or Sullivan as example- and accepts as valid findings refuted by science.
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Neither of which has ever been on an expedition to look for Atlantis, written a report on it or even commented in detail about anything concerning it, so of course people have no business looking for them.


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You confuses tsunamis and earthquakes with geological collapse.
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Read the report again, it says earthquakes.
Funny thing, once again, the region you're looking at has neither.


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You do not raise of critical way the obvious differences in the literal sense of a text and another one: "afterwards sunk by an earthquake" versus "the island of Atlantis in like to manner disappeared in the depths of the sea"; ambiguity versus certainty.
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I hate to bring this up, but it's only ambiguous if you have a bad grasp of English, Jamie, you are the only one to ever bring this up.


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All this methodology is very far from a scientific discussion of the problem, transformed the debate into a problem of "I believe versus you believe".
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I've backed up everything I've said here with research, in fact, I wouldn't even be saying any of it without the research. The truth is, you haven't even read most of it. You make that clear by referring to twenty year old claims by Shinn after I've pointed you to new ones. 
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« Reply #395 on: December 29, 2007, 08:11:26 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-06-2006 12:25 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Tom Hebert1:
I agree, Neko. Desiree has given excellent arguments why Plato's Atlantis can be nowhere except in the Atlantic.
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Thanks, Tom, in my opinion, Jamie refuses to see any of it simply because he feels the need to protect

his own theory. But a true scientist isn't out to protect his pet theory, he's out for the truth. 
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« Reply #396 on: December 29, 2007, 08:12:39 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-06-2006 12:40 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Sometimes I hate repeating myself but here it goes again and this pretty is convincing itself.


Atlantis was more than likely not it's name. The Atlantic Ocean was named even before Plato's time as maps of that era suggest. Plato was obviously giving hints to an island in the Atlantic, hence the name Atlantis. Some people try to say he is referring to the Atlas mountains, wasn't the Atlantic Ocean named after Atlas also therefore it goes either way. But as Boreasi has been pointing out time and time again, Plato was clearly describing the Atlantic Ocean, and with satellite photos this is more than enough proof.
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Hi Neko! I just dug this up at an Atlantis site, it suggests an Atlantic Ocean reference that was possibly wayyyy earlier than Herodotus, from Manetho's Kings list. He wrote one hundred years after Herodotus, but was drawing on the same Egyptian mythology that gave them their gods:


quote:
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THE LAND OF THE WEST

Secondly, I noticed that Manetho says that the Egyptian god-kings (which I believe to be identical with the ten kings who ruled Atlantis) reigned in a foreign land. The Egyptian hieroglyph set which is commonly translated "foreign land" is extremely interesting.


Set: can mean foreign land, mountainous
land, or the underworld (Inscription
of Anebni, 18th Dynasty)


Amentet: can mean either West, or
Land of the West (Funeral Stele of
Panehesi, 19th Dynasty)


Now the "Land of the West" would be a natural Egyptian name for Atlantis. The Atlantic Ocean was referred to as the "Western Ocean". Did Manetho translate "foreign land" from this glyph? If so, we probably have ourselves a reference to Atlantis in the writings of Manetho. There were no mountains in western Egypt, yet this glyph represented a mountainous land to the west of Egypt.


That the glyph set also represented the "underworld," also fits, since this is the land where the sun shines after it has set (no pun intended) on the land of Egypt. It was believed in popular Egyptian mythology that the sun passed through the underworld on its way back to rise once more in the east.


We therefore have a glyph representing a western, mountainous land, a land where the sun went after it had set on Egypt, and whose earliest rulers were probably called "Auliteans" or "Aleteans". To top it off the reign of these kings ended circa. 9850 B.C. A lot of coincidences.


The famed zodiac in the temple of Hathor at Denderah begins with the constellation Leo (mean date, 9825 B.C.) registering the beginning of a new cycle. Could this signify a time of renewal of the earth: a beginning of a new cycle after a tremendous geological cataclysm accompanying the fall of the Atlantean empire and the end of the "reign of the gods"?
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http://www.atlantisquest.com/Hiero.html

Sure sounds like the Egyptians knew where the Atlantic was to me, a long time earlier than some people give them credit for.
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« Reply #397 on: December 29, 2007, 08:14:00 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-06-2006 12:55 AM                       
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And to my opinion, Desiree has not confirmed anything here. There are not bulls, there is not island, there are not channels, there are not constructions, there are not boats, there is not mud, etc...

All to indicate until now by Desiree is hypothetical constructions, on non proven facts, of pronouncement questioned by sciences, etc. In particular, nothing of anything...
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Actually, Greg Little (through satellite photo) has found a site near Cuba that fits almost all the descriptions of Plato - circular city, canals, flat plain, mountains, etc. The culture he decribes was an ancient sea-faring culture that most likely built both the sites at both Bimini and Andros. Greg has done a lot of field work into Atlantis in the Caribbean and, if you've been reading any of my conversations with him here, you'd know that his method is both sound and scientific. If you have any specific questions about his method, I'm sure he'd be good enough to answer them for you.



quote:
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Nekosuki.

There is no a only test that demonstrates that that sea was known with the name of Atlantic before Herodotus... that lived after Solon and before Plato. Its previous name for the Greeks was Okeano, by the name of one of Titans, that today we know talks about seas.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Egyptians did not have the same name for it in their records as the Greeks, if you read my previous post. 
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« Reply #398 on: December 29, 2007, 08:15:12 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-06-2006 01:29 AM                       
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Jamie, both these voyages date hundreds of years before Herodotus, and even before Solon, for that matter. Proof that the Egyptians knew their geography much better than you give them credit for:


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The Phoenicians
Little is known of the origins of this group of traders, though their roots are in the eastern Mediterranean.


Driven by the desire to acquire new and more cost-effective sources of raw materials and to sell their products to markets other than in their homeland, the Phoenicians covered enormous distances. They were among the first to trace routes to the western Mediterranean and beyond the Pillars of Hercules (the Straits of Gibraltar) toward the Atlantic coasts of Africa and Europe.

At the end of the seventh century B.C., the Egyptian Pharaoh Necho II, who reigned c. 615-595 B.C.commissioned Phoenician sailors to sail around the continent of Africa. Accordingly, he commissioned a number of ships manned by Phoenicians for the task. These sailed down the Red Sea and down the east coast of Africa. Every year they settled for a while on the coast, cleared a strip of land, planted a crop and, when they had harvested it, continued on their journey. In the third year they sailed through the Pillars of Hercules and back to Egypt again. They reported that as they sailed around Africa they had the sun on their right.

This statement, which those early voyagers of the 7th century B.C. could not have made up, indicates that the Phoenician sailors did indeed circumnavigate the continent of Africa, well before any European.

Archaeologists have discovered that the Phoenicians used coastal and deep-water routes for both trade and voyages of discovery. Coastal sailors only sailed during the day, from one village to another, always keeping land in sight. Deep-water sailors took routes farther away from the coastline but still kept sight of land.
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http://www.encyclopedia.mu/History/Phoenicians.htm


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Hanno's 'Periplus'
The Voyage of Hanno, King of the Carthaginians, to the Libyan regions of the earth, beyond the Pillars of Heracles... These are the opening words of the Periplus of Hanno, a Greek translation of a Punic inscription on a bronze plaque that Hanno dedicated in theTemple of Chronos (Baal Hammon) at Carthage.1 In this document the shophet Hanno relates how, in the first half of the sixth century BC, he conducted an expedition that brought new colonists to four Carthaginian settlements established where the chain of the Atlas reaches the Atlantic and then, having founded a new colony at the Tropic, proceeded from there to explore the coast of Africa as far as the Equator.

The eighteen lines of Hanno's artless account of his journey along the west coast of Africa are a unique document. It is the only known first-hand report on these regions before those of the Portuguese, which were written two thousand years later. It is the longest known text by a Phoenician author. Besides, Hanno has a fascinating story to tell: He then describes his various stops along the way and his interaction with the natives. stories of men that can run faster than horses, we visit a mysterious island, have to fight hostile natives, encountered crocodiles and water horses (hippopotami), survive an erupting volcano and encounter gorillas. They then Probably, Hanno made his voyage on the outer sea in the first half of the sixth century BC.
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http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/hanno-voyage.htm


Point is, the Egyptian Pharaoh Necho II, who reigned c. 615-595 B.C (dying twenty-five years before Solon was said to even have heard the story) had the Phoenicians sail around Africa, both through the Red Sea, around Africa, and back through the Pillars of Hercules again. Meaning, since the Atlantis story originated with the Egyptians and they had a good grasp of their geography, they would have not have been mistaken. Sorry, but that looks to me like a major blow towards your theory, and once again, pretty much vindication for the idea that the Egyptians knew their oceans. 
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« Reply #399 on: December 29, 2007, 08:16:23 am »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Rate Member   posted 04-06-2006 07:19 AM                       
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quote:
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Actually, Greg Little (through satellite photo) has found a site near Cuba that fits almost all the descriptions of Plato - circular city, canals, flat plain, mountains, etc. The culture he decribes was an ancient sea-faring culture that most likely built both the sites at both Bimini and Andros. Greg has done a lot of field work into Atlantis in the Caribbean and, if you've been reading any of my conversations with him here, you'd know that his method is both sound and scientific. If you have any specific questions about his method, I'm sure he'd be good enough to answer them for you.
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So that not this in the world-wide press so gigantic finding? Nothing of that is validated by some type of organization or cientifica community...

I want to be clear. I do not say the Egyptians did not know of the Pillars of Hercules. Perhaps they knew, but not of the Atlantic and much less of America, as you indicate.

The Phoenicians, Carthaginians and Cananites in general, they until death condemned to whom gave the secrets of his commercial routes... Was ultraclassified information. The Romans could not never obtain this data, although they looked for them...

If today we know of the trips of the Carthaginians or Phoenicians, are by the result of a great archaeological work...

In the document of Hanno it does not appear by any part the Atlantic word...
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« Reply #400 on: December 29, 2007, 08:19:01 am »



Jaime Manuschevich

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I have not said that Desiree "despises" my theory, obvious does not worry to me. The disquieting thing is that it subvalues scientific information of first level.

 
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« Reply #401 on: December 29, 2007, 08:20:06 am »

Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree

You have said that:


quote:
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The Egyptians did not have the same name for it in their records as the Greeks, if you read my previous post.
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That is exactly the problem: We do not know if Greek and the Egyptians spoke of the same place . For me it is clear that while we at heart do not find an island of 300 by 600 kilometers sunk of the Atlantic, Plato was mistaken when established the position of the Island in that Ocean. And that is what there is to assume.

 
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« Reply #402 on: December 29, 2007, 08:21:07 am »

Brig

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Now we all know what is meant by "debate".   
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Posts: 9899 | From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA | Registered: Apr 2002  |
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« Reply #403 on: December 29, 2007, 08:22:23 am »

Huggy

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  posted 04-06-2006 06:54 PM                       
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Keftiu?

 
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« Reply #404 on: December 29, 2007, 08:24:15 am »








nekozuki

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   posted 04-06-2006 10:21 PM                       
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Jaime I still don't see how you're coming to the conclusion that Atlantis is in Israel. Don't you think this would clearly be written in the Old Testament?

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