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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 7573 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #375 on: December 29, 2007, 07:31:41 am »








docyabut
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For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island."


Tartessos' disappearance from history as well, as the region was flooded between 800 and 500 BC, precisely when Tartessos ceased being mentioned in historical texts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos 
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Bianca
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« Reply #376 on: December 29, 2007, 07:43:49 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-03-2006 11:13 PM                       
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Legends the Phoenecians used to say about the Atlantic Ocean to curtail competition for trade there, it's in all the ancient histories that refer to the Atlantic.

That are legends, its are not solid and concrete geologic data.
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It's also in all the Greek myths, too: the Atlantic was considered a dangerous place to sail.
What role has the Red Sea ever played in any Greek myths? Answer: none. You're going to say that it's because they didn't know about it, but that's wrong. It's right in their backyard.

The Greeks had contacts with the Egyptians and Phoenicians who were each located by it. They also warred with Persia and traded with India. Fine if you want to guess about it, but history would suggest otherwise.


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The Sargasso Sea is not mud and by both points it is possible to be sailed. The myth is specific. It is not possible to be sailed in this sea.
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The seaweed rising up from the Sargasso Sea has historically made sailing through it difficult. You should investigate these things before offering an opinion on them.


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Its length is of 14.4 km in its narrower part, between End of Oliveros (Spain) and End Cires (Morocco), and the depth in the middle of the Straits is of 1.4 km. 14.4 kilometers are not indeed narrow for ships that they did not have more than 10 meters wide. There is no port in his interior and the myth says nowhere that to the other side there was a great sea.
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Really?
You must have missed this part:


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and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
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Seems pretty obvious to most people he's describing Gibraltar.
Also, Atlantis was supposed to be outside the Pillars of Hercules, locating the straits at the Red Sea would mean you're locating Atlantis inside the pillars, which is where Israel is. Again, it doesn't match Plato at all.


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Here one talks about to two different seas, a small and disappear, where it was the port after a narrow entrance, and another great and existing one, that surrounded to another territory that was so great that it could be called continent.
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Yep, the Mediterranean is the smaller sea while the Atlantic is the greater one, just like Plato is talking about. It fits if you look at it like that, it doesn't fit at all if you look at it the way you're doing.


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for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
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Again, Plato is very specific in that the local sea, the Med, is the smaller one, while the larger one, the Atlantic, outside the Pillars.

By any stretch of the imagination, the Red Sea is not larger than the Med.
Nor did he mistake the Pillars of Hercules for anything else, it's an EXACT description.


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Without a doubt, but in the Atlantic there is no a sunk island. The last one sank 5 million ago years. Although nowhere it says that that was the island that sank...
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You're kidding, right? Jamie, Spartel alone disproves that statement. It's not my idea of Atlantis, but it's a small island sunk, right in the Atlantic. And guess what? It was only 11,000 years ago, not 5 million. You were at the Milos Conference, weren't you?

Of course, Plato says that Atlantis sunk:
But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

Couldn't be much clearer than that.

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If the opposed continent is Africa, by the text it says that... "truly called a boundless continent". Nobody would doubt it that it is it. And, why it does not say it specifically?

If it is America... The Egyptians of the time of their size knew..?

(1) The Egyptians do not commit themselves with the name that the Greeks give him.
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First off, the Egyptians wouldn't have known of America, but most likely, they got their knowledge from the Phoenicians, who, most likely, came to the new world. And, at first glance, the Americas are one long boundless continent, stretching north and south up the globe.

You're also forgetting that Israel was in Egypt's own backyard and that there was no way either Egypt of Greece could have confused a land they both traded with as some unknown island in the Atlantic.
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Bianca
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« Reply #377 on: December 29, 2007, 07:45:46 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-03-2006 11:19 PM                       
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About the Saragasso Sea:

Sargasso Sea

The sea is an elongated region in the middle of the North Atlantic, and is surrounded by ocean currents. On the west it is bounded by the Gulf Stream; on the north, it is bounded by the North Atlantic Current; on the east, it is bounded by the Canary Current; and on the south, it is bounded by the North Atlantic Equatorial Current. It is, very roughly, 700 statute miles wide and 2,000 statute miles long (1,100 km wide and 3,200 km long). It stretches from roughly 70 degrees west to 40 degrees west, and from 25 degrees north to 35 degrees north. Bermuda is located near the western fringes of the sea.

The Sargasso Sea, which is very salty, is often regarded as being lifeless, though it is home to some seaweed of the genus Sargassum. This seaweed floats en masse on the surface there. The Sargasso Sea also plays a major role in the migration of the European eel; the larvae of the eel hatch there and go to Europe. Later in life, they try to return to the Sargasso to lay eggs there.

Portuguese sailors were among the first to discover this region in the 15th century. Christopher Columbus and his men also noted the Sargasso Sea. They brought reports of the large amount of seaweed on the surface. The Carthaginian admiral Himilco had earlier made similar reports after sailing through the Pillars of Hercules: "Many seaweeds grow in the troughs between the waves, which slow the ship like bushes {...} Here the beasts of the sea move slowly hither and thither, and great monsters swim languidly among the sluggishly creeping ships" (Rufus Festus Avienus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargasso_sea

This was the mud Plato spoke about. The Red Sea doesn't have any such feature. 
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« Reply #378 on: December 29, 2007, 07:47:54 am »

docyabut
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There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription.


If it was 10,000 year ago in Americas, they would have fought the deer or the American elk for there were no cows in Americas before Comlumbus brought them over.For some reason I can`t see them fighting them barehanded:)

http://www.nps.gov/wica/Elk.htm 
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« Reply #379 on: December 29, 2007, 07:49:11 am »








docyabut
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also the bufflo.

http://www.nps.gov/wica/Bison.htm 
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Bianca
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« Reply #380 on: December 29, 2007, 07:50:26 am »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Ufff... that great amount of supposed and speculations... If, if, if...


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Also, Atlantis was supposed to be outside the Pillars of Hercules, locating the straits at the Red Sea would mean you're locating Atlantis inside the pillars, which is where Israel is. Again, it doesn't match Plato at all.
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The subject we can analyze it in http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=


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The seaweed rising up from the Sargasso Sea has historically made sailing through it difficult. You should investigate these things before offering an opinion on them.
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The seaweed is not just like the mud... if as much the Greek knew of this sea, why they did not say it...?


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Yep, the Mediterranean is the smaller sea while the Atlantic is the greater one, just like Plato is talking about. It fits if you look at it like that, it doesn't fit at all if you look at it the way you're doing.
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The Mediterranean and the Atlantic continue being there, they have not disappeared and both seas continue being navigable...


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You're kidding, right? Jamie, Spartel alone disproves that statement. It's not my idea of Atlantis, but it's a small island sunk, right in the Atlantic. And guess what? It was only 11,000 years ago, not 5 million. .
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Spartel did not sink.... underwent a tsunami, that is not same... The data only say to us, that its altered the levels of sea... Not even we know if before also it were under the sea...


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 “But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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This only says it in the Timaues, in Critia says...


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“and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.”
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Here the storyteller omits what it sank...

docyabut

If somebody found archaeological rest where there are buffalos, the American theory could be maintained... but since it does not have...
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« Reply #381 on: December 29, 2007, 07:51:22 am »




Boreasi

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   posted 04-04-2006 01:20 PM                       
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Desiree,
quote;

"Wow, the founders of the original Native American populations were from Atlantis!!  "

TX! 
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« Reply #382 on: December 29, 2007, 07:52:28 am »




Jaime Manuschevich

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This was the mud Plato spoke about. The Red Sea doesn't have any such feature.
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But its small neighboring sea fulfills this requirement, the Dead Sea, that stopped being in addition navigable...


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You're also forgetting that Israel was in Egypt's own backyard and that there was no way either Egypt of Greece could have confused a land they both traded with as some unknown island in the Atlantic.
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Interesting paragraph...

My conclusion is that Egyptians told Solon was that. And Solon, with the typical Indo-European arrogance, that has not changed much, did not understand it. He thought that the Egyptians had to be mistaken and constructed his own fantasy, transferring the island to still mysterious Atlantic sea.... We do not forget that the platonic text says us that the Egyptians considered Greek ignorant children.

[ 04-04-2006, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Jaime Manuschevich ]
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« Reply #383 on: December 29, 2007, 07:54:48 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-05-2006 02:12 AM                       
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The seaweed is not just like the mud... if as much the Greek knew of this sea, why they did not say it...?
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How would they know if it was mud or seeweed, do you expect them to have diving gear? Very few people could even swim back then, deepsea diving wasn't even something they were capable of.


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The Mediterranean and the Atlantic continue being there, they have not disappeared and both seas continue being navigable...
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No one ever implied that they did. If the Atlantic Ocean was always considered naviagble, then there would be more evidence of contacts between the old and new worlds. It can be sailed, it just can't be sailed easily.


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Spartel did not sink.... underwent a tsunami, that is not same... The data only say to us, that its altered the levels of sea... Not even we know if before also it were under the sea...
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Oh, really..?

The hypothesis oput forward by Jacques Collina-Girard:


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Spartel Bank as Atlantis hypothesis
The following abstract is by French geologist Jacques Collina-Girard. Collina-Girard may not have been the originator of this hypothesis; see below.

At the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, when the sea level was at -135 m, the Gibraltar Strait was narrower and longer than presently. It opened on a half-enclosed sea (70km x 20 km), between the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean. The largest Island (10-12 km) and its archipelago faced the Strait in this protected marine area, preceding the real Atlantic Ocean. According to the post glacial sea level rise (120 m from the late glacial maximum at 19 000 B.P° The paleogeography changed at around 9400 years BC (11400 B.P.), due to the accelerated sea level rise known everywhere in this precise period (4m/century during Meltwater Pulse 1A) drowning the top of the main island (presently located at -56 m). The hypothesis of the contribution of main tsunamis (Collina-Girard, 2003) similar to those historically attested (Lisbon earthquake) was recently argumented by geological observations from spanish oceanographer (Holocene turbidites cited by Gütsher, 2005). In this very seismic area they could haved transformed the rapid eustatic sea level rise in a main catastrophe drowning the Cape Spartel archipelago around 9400 years BC in very similar conditions and at the same period to those described and indicated by Plato in Timaeus . This geological history or a real geological Atlantis outside of Pillar of Herakles, curiously evokes the Egyptian tradition, starting point of the history of Atlantis in the text of Plato (400 years BC), “ Timaeus ” : an island and its archipelago drowned around 9000 years before Plato, immediately off the "Pillars of Herakles". Therefore, the hypothesis is that the Plato myth of “ Atlantis ” is built on a local prehistoric tradition of flooding transmitted during 5000 years to the first Egyptian scribes around 3000-4000 BC. Ethnographical examples, observations of long time conservatism in Prehistory and testimonies of the first classical texts prove that verbal traditions could record catastrophical events over a long period. The discrepancy between the size of the island and the degree of civilisation could be interpreted in the point of view of the philosopher, illustrating his own principles, just like a novelist writes his fiction from a core of real events. Obviously, there is a geographical and chronological correlation between the history of the real geological 'Atlantis" of the Gibraltar Strait and the mythical story of Plato's Atlantis. Accepting the scientific value of this relationship is certainly a speculative attitude … but the coincidence seems too close to be immediately rejected. (Abstract J.Collina-Girard)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartel


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“But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.
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This only says it in the Timaues, in Critia says...


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“and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.”
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Both say that the Atlantic Island sunk, but even if they didn't, it would be unscientific to ignore one passage but cite the other. Both should be taken into account, not explained away. How else can the truth be known?
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« Reply #384 on: December 29, 2007, 07:56:02 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-05-2006 02:15 AM                       
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Originally posted by Boreasi:
Desiree,
quote;

"Wow, the founders of the original Native American populations were from Atlantis!!  "

TX!
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You're welcome! 
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« Reply #385 on: December 29, 2007, 07:57:06 am »








Desiree

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   posted 04-05-2006 02:20 AM                       
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Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:

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This was the mud Plato spoke about. The Red Sea doesn't have any such feature.
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But its small neighboring sea fulfills this requirement, the Dead Sea, that stopped being in addition navigable...


quote:
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You're also forgetting that Israel was in Egypt's own backyard and that there was no way either Egypt of Greece could have confused a land they both traded with as some unknown island in the Atlantic.
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Interesting paragraph...

My conclusion is that Egyptians told Solon was that. And Solon, with the typical Indo-European arrogance, that has not changed much, did not understand it. He thought that the Egyptians had to be mistaken and constructed his own fantasy, transferring the island to still mysterious Atlantic sea.... We do not forget that the platonic text says us that the Egyptians considered Greek ignorant children.
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Jamie, you can't go to a different sea to explain the mud, that is really reaching.

As for the second answer, that is pure supposition. Egypt and Greece both traded with that area, they knew it well. That is another big hole in your theory. 
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« Reply #386 on: December 29, 2007, 07:58:46 am »








Greg Little
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“In the Bahamas, pilots and divers wondered for years about the so-called "Atlantis Road” a long row of seemingly connected stone blocks in about 15 feet of water. Gene Shinn of the St. Petersburg office of the U.S. Geological Survey became fascinated by the story and investigated in 1978. His conclusion: The blocks are natural, caused by a combination of sea level rise and erosion."

This is partly true, but Shinn was funded by author Peter Thomkins. He did work at the US Geological Survey, he held a bachelor's degree in biology. His published findings, in the obscure magazine "Sea Frontiers" alleged that he did 17 cores on stones there. His published results showed that only 4 cores or less "dipped toward deep water," actually showing that the blocks had been moved and replaced.

In his 2004 Skeptical Inquirer article, Shinn basically fabricated new results alleging that all 17 cores "dipped toward deep water." There are so many other gross errors in that article it's shocking that even an ultra skeptical cult would publish them. In his correspondence with me Shinn said he was "imprecise" but "lack of peer review" was to blame for the factual errors, mistakes, and gross inaccuracies.

Greg Little 
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« Reply #387 on: December 29, 2007, 08:00:04 am »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

I have already said that if you want to discuss the validity of my theory, you do it in the other page.

In your explanation about the theory of Atlantic, you practically change everything, without contributes a single validated test, support in many speculations and loose data processings.

In addition, you change several data of the myth, reinterpreted to your way with an enormous freedom, to fit them to the theory in that you believe:

You changes seaweed by mud.

You change to no navigable seas by navigable seas.

You put bulls where its does not have: the centre of the Atlantic Ocean.

You despise paragraphs of the text without basing them, since according to you the bulls are not a key, contravening the opinion of many specialists.

You speak of islands that do not exist and not existed, as if its were real.

You assign to Egyptian a level of knowledge that worldwide geography that never they had, without contributes to no test.

You rejects conclusions of validated scientists, - Ballard or Sullivan as example- and accepts as valid findings refuted by science.

You confuses tsunamis and earthquakes with geological collapse.

You do not raise of critical way the obvious differences in the literal sense of a text and another one: "afterwards sunk by an earthquake" versus "the island of Atlantis in like to manner disappeared in the depths of the sea"; ambiguity versus certainty.

All this methodology is very far from a scientific discussion of the problem, transformed the debate into a problem of "I believe versus you believe".

Thus it is not easy to discover the truth of the facts...
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« Reply #388 on: December 29, 2007, 08:01:50 am »

Brig

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Jaime: Just a word concerning translation. Please do not use the word "despise", it carries too strong a meaning in its english form. Disagrees with, or dislikes, are better. We had a very bad time with a lady from Spain who used "Despised" far too frequently when less disagreeable phrases would have been more acceptable. Some are still sensitised by the improper use of this word. No way does Desiree "despise" your theory though she may disagree with it or misintreprets what you mean. This is just a correction in translation and is not meant as an insult. 
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« Reply #389 on: December 29, 2007, 08:02:58 am »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Brig:

In Spanish, to despise is not to appreciate something in its right value. It is to subvalue. It is not an insult... it is to scorn (desdeñar, in Spanish). It is to leave a side, to hard or strong way... And according to the English dictionary, in that language it is equal. Perhaps the most popular use gives to the verb another meaning him that I do not know... If somebody considers an insult, only is a linguistic bad understanding.
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