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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)


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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 9506 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #330 on: December 28, 2007, 03:54:44 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-28-2006 08:55 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:
Desiree

In order to shorten way, also you can look the debate about Peoples of the Sea:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000911;p=6#000222

and maritime aspect of Old Middle East, look this page:

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000552

Respect to:


quote:
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Guess what? You should have looked up "Berber," not "Caspian," these dates fit perfectly into Plato's chronology:

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The correct term is Capsian, (Africa) no Caspian (Asia)… The Capsian was the culture previous to "berber"


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 The Capsian culture (named after the town of Gafsa) was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10000 BC to 6000 BC. It was concentrated mainly in modern Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, with some sites attested in Cyrenaica (Libya)
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First off, I have studied the Sea People in school and they are almost totally irrelevant to this discussion. You place Atlantis at the earlier date which makes them even less relevant.

Second, lots of other places travelled the sea in the Neolithic era! Islands like Australia were settled at that time, too! Even earlier. How do you think they got there? Did they swim? No, they built boats. Of course the boats are probably all rotted away by now.

Third, you're correcting my spelling. Twice now.

Jamie, do you know how many misspellings are in your posts??

I cut you some slack cause I know English is not your first language, but I can be just as rude about it as you are if that's what you want. I was hoping to keep this a civildiscussion.

Fourth, as for "Capsian," you're talking cultures, I'm talking habitation. Point is, the Berbers have been in North Africa for anywhere from 30,000 bc to 22,000 bc, depending on which genetic source you use.


quote:
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Some have regarded this culture's population as simply a continuation of the earlier Mesolithic Ibero-Maurusian culture, which appeared around ~22,000 BC, while others argue for a population change; the former view seems to be supported by dental evidence. [2]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber 
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« Reply #331 on: December 28, 2007, 03:56:25 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-28-2006 09:30 PM                       
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quote:
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Desiree

1. We did not forget it. Simply Plato was mistaken.
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You have no evidence of that, it's only your opinion. Not very scientific.


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2. Yes, Kades Bernea, in the Sinai, close Suez.

3. If you see the map of Piri Reis, who reflects the old coasts, you will see that that zone was under the sea, like many other Mediterranean regions, until does 7 thousand years.
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I've seen the Piri Reis Map, it's so vague and speculative that it doesn't prove anything. Who knows? It might even be a forgery.


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4. Gades was founded when the sea lowered.
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It's it's location, Spain, that was important, which is about as far away from the Middle East as you can get in the Mediterranean.


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5. With respect to Bimini, I looked for other sources again and no indicates what you say. No scientific source endorses that the man did the rocks of Binimi. To the inverse one, it has detailed explanations of many geologists of so that it is not thus. The only ones that they affirm what you say, are the esoteric sources that even describe them as ruins. With respect to the material that you indicate to me, I have not been able it to read because something happens with my code that does not work well. If you me sent it by mail, would be thanked for it.
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Greg Little would be the person to contact, not me, who is actually overseeing the tests. Here is a link to the discussion we were having:
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000643;p=1
Far from far-fetched, you can see that the A.R.E. takes a very scientific approach to everything that it investigates. And it goes to a lot of work, too.


quote:
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6. He is visible that you have not studied the history of the Middle East. The bull plays a roll in all the religions of zone. In the temple of Saba or Sana a bull was discovered, the Babylonians sacrificed bulls, like the Egyptians (Apis). In Crete it is a ritual animal. Between the Jews the rite existed until the destruction of the Second Temple, etc. The promise of loyalty to the Law and God of Moses is identical to the one of Atlantis, etc.
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Who's being ignorant of history?

Bull worship existed all around the Mediterranean, from ancient Morocco to Persia, it proves nothing. The fact that you're trying to single out only the Babylonians for having it and not mentioning other places is disinegnuous.

It is NOT a CLUE.


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7. For the atlantean there is no another God that Poseidon. In anthropology, that is monotheism.
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Read the dialogues again, there is no mention AT ALL of what type of religion the Atlanteans had.

At any rate, Akhenaton was the first the bring monotheism to the Middle East. Again, it is not a clue!


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8. The myth describes an important agricultural work, of 11,500 years ago, when hats was believed does very just a short time that agriculture had begun does only 5 thousand years. That is not one fantasy of Donnelly. That is really the first civilization.
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Plato doesn't call it the first civilization.
Just because some place had farmng doesn't make it Atlantis.


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9. Etc. etc..
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No circular city, no concentric rings, no five mile waterway leading to the central city, no large flat plain, not even close to the Pillars of Hercules, not an island, not larger than Libya and Asia combined, no invasion of the Mediterranean, no orichalcum, no Mt. Atlas!

This theory bears no resemblance at all to anything written by Plato.
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Bianca
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« Reply #332 on: December 28, 2007, 03:57:32 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-28-2006 09:49 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Jaime Manuschevich:
Desiree:

As I said to him, each detail of my theory is endorsed by validated scientific datas. Not to repeat data such, please you read part of debate in

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541;p=1
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Actually, I have read this discussion, twice! Yesterday and today, trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't give the Greeks any credit for knowing their local geography, do you?

Anyway, I disagree with Herr Saltzman that the Natufians weren't an interesting culture, but they don't bear any resemblance to Plato's Atlantis.

I'm not Herr Saltzman's biggest fan, but he seemed to sum up all the majr arguing points against your theory pretty well with this post. He probably would have continued arguing against it if he hadn't been banned:


quote:
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1. You seem to think Israel is an island, when it is not.

2. The Natufians were primitive hunter-gatherers that learned to farm, not an advanced civilization.

3. Atlantis was to the west of Egypt -you think it was to the east.

4. Atlantis invaded W. Libya and Tyrrhenia, you hold that it invaded Nubia and Phoenicia.

5. You hold the Pillars of Herakles were of the Erythraean Sea, when they were in Gibraltar, and previous to that Messina.

6. You choose to omit the fact that there the straits you propose are not Western straits.

7. There is no reason for the Greeks to rotate the seas.

8. Even if the Pillars of Herakles were in the Red Sea, an absurd assumption, then Atlantis would have to be beyond the Pillars, but Israel is actually inside them.

9. It is ridiculous to counter this former argument by saying the Mediterranean was the "real" sea Plato was talking about, because he distinguished the seas of Greece, the Mediterranean, and the sea of the Atlanteans.

10. Never did Israel have any important role in Near Eastern politics. It was a strip of land constnatly fought over by the Hittites and Egyptians and Assyrians. It was a ridiculously weak state. There is no ancient civilization that could harbor Atlantis.

11. Israel is, and always has been, a barren desert. The sparse greenness we see there today was manmade.

12. Elephants do not exist in Israel, nor does a plain of the type Plato is describing, nor is Israel larger, or mightier, than Libya (N. Africa bordering on the Med.) and Asia(Middle East) combined -in fact, Israel was part of ancient Asia.

13. The Natufians were taken out 8200 BCE, and they had no metallurgical skills, no navigation skills, no knowledge of permanent construction, no writing system, no far flung trade routes, and absolutely no sort of civilization whatsoever. They were not the amazing empire Plato describes in his Atlantis story.

14. Seeing as they went out 8200 BCE (probably by a drought our some such), there is no way for them to somehow communicate with a nonexistent Egyptian state and tell their story in such detail, nor is there any way for them to fight with Athens.

15. Not only does your theory lack every basic element of the Atlantis story (the empire, the location, the catastrophe), it has absolutely no circumstantial evidence.

Plato does not say it was the first food producing society.

He does not say it had a monotheistic religion -in fact, he implies it worshipped the Greek gods.

He does not say all other civilizations in the world emanated from there.

He does not give any shape for the island.

You list "bull sacrifice" as among the most relevant clues Plato gives us, but it is not. These are the most "relevant" clues.

While he does say that the center island was an important religious cult, this is not one of the relevant clues.

1. It was an island.
2. It was in front of the Pillars of Herakles.
3. It was a western power that attempted to subdue the E. Mediterranean.
4. It was destroyed by a flood.
5. It had a civilization with writing, engineering, specialization of labor, a hierarchy, an army, a navy, a confederacy of kings, and so on.

Those are the five basic tenets of the Atlantis story, and your theory does not fulfill any.

In addition, I would like an answer to your outrageous lie that Plato says Atlantis was the first food producing society, and the first civilization.
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« Reply #333 on: December 28, 2007, 03:59:07 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree

To make a debate is very complex. I think that you already have in the head that is what had to be the Atlantis, independently of the solid and validated data that appears to you. Everybody we must accept the critic. I do not believe suitable to get angry because your ideas are questioned. Thus it is very difficult to analyze the data and to extract serious and solid conclusions.

I am going to put some examples of because I raise this, not to do of this interminable discussion.

Beyond your contemptuous attitude forehead the subject, the ritual sacrifice of the bull, that you with simplify describe so "bloody sacrifice", in the real anthropology, is essential to understand that culture treats and as they are his heirs, since “ancestor animal” of this culture. Elias Cannetti, Nobel Award, studied in detail the phenomenon of the animal ancestor in all its evolutionary process and its importance for all hunters cultures. And exactly in the region that indicated, they existed the wild Uros, as it also establishes it recognized and authorized J. Hawkes.

Other example:


quote:
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 A maritime culture? We all like to think of Atlantis as that, but again, Plato never says that. He says they had 1200 ships and invaded the Mediterranean from the west.
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You say that debate about maritime culture is not important, but not any civilization of the past have a fleet of that size. The Greeks, that was strong thalasocracy, did not get to have fleets of that category. That amount of ships defines to us that they were a marine civilization. In addition, the stories of Timaeus and Critias indicate to us that they had ports, floodgates, channels and that towards a great commerce by the sea. In conclusion, we must look for a powerful marine civilization.

And within those possibilities, they are "mysterious" Poeples of the Sea, that some investigators were the Atlantes, which is in my opinion a great error, which you share... Then, you want were the sailors of Atlantis? I, in the place that I indicated to him, development my explanations, also based on validated sources... I not still as the subject is your answer...

And with respect to the latest that you have put, extracted of the “Atlantis was Israel” debate, I am not going to repeat the answer that are put in form detailed in that page... Here we are seeing the subject of Atlantic, not my theory... That discussion, if you want, we can do it in Atlantis was Israel...

Respect to:


quote:
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 I've seen the Piri Reis Map, it's so vague and speculative that it doesn't prove anything. Who knows? It might even be a forgery.
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To the inverse one, exactly because it is not it, it is that it disturbs all... Also, like the works of Richard Sullivan and other important anthropologists and scientists, their geodesic analysis made by experts puts their center in the Middle East...

The corrections of spellings I have done them only when they can imply an interpretation error... My objective is not to bother... My English is very limited..

That so far...

--------------------
Jaime Manuschevich
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« Reply #334 on: December 28, 2007, 04:04:54 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree


quote:
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 Bull worship existed all around the Mediterranean, from ancient Morocco to Persia, it proves nothing. The fact that you're trying to single out only the Babylonians for having it and not mentioning other places is disinegnuous.

It is NOT a CLUE.
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For that reason it is exactly a Clue . All the area that you indicates reflects the direct influence of that first civilization... whose geographic center is... Israel...
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« Reply #335 on: December 28, 2007, 04:05:51 pm »








nekozuki

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Actually some kind of bull sacrifice,worship, or ritual is found in every ancient civilization even later Greece and Rome, does that make them Atlantis.......no.

--------------------
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"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita
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« Reply #336 on: December 28, 2007, 04:06:48 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

What do you think about these conclusions of the genetics?

Berber lenguistic

“The Berbers (also called Imazighen, "free men", singular Amazigh) are an ethnic group indigenous to Northwest Africa, speaking the Berber languages of the Afroasiatic family.” (semitic language)

Berber genetic

“The genetically predominant ancestors of the Berbers appear to have come from East Africa, the Middle East, or both - but the details of this remain unclear.” [Kem and Sem]

The origin of Beber population (and Iberia)

The Y chromosome is passed exclusively through the paternal line. According to Bosch et al. 2001, "the historical origins of the NW African Y-chromosome pool may be summarized as follows: 75% NW African Upper Paleolithic (H35, H36, and H38), 13% Neolithic (H58 and H71), 4% historic European gene flow (group IX, H50, H52), and 8% recent sub-Saharan African (H22 and H28)". They identify the "75% NW African Upper Paleolithic" component as "an Upper Paleolithic colonization that probably had its origin in Eastern Africa." The North-west African population's 75% Y chromosome genetic contribution from East Africa contrasted with a 78% contribution to the Iberian population from western Asia,[Israel] (Bosch et al, 2001).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber#Genetic_evidence
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« Reply #337 on: December 28, 2007, 04:07:46 pm »








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Akhenaton was a Sun worshipper. He was, by far, not the first Sun worshipper. However, most other Sun worshippers tended to also worship the Moon and other natural phenomena. Ra was the Sun. The hebrews were the first to worship an invisible God, but that culture also had many influx gods from surrounding cultures. 
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« Reply #338 on: December 28, 2007, 04:08:51 pm »








nekozuki

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   posted 03-29-2006 10:04 PM                       
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Really Jaime? Here's some convinicing genetic research that points to something was in the Atlantic at one time. Haplogroup X is a mysterious DNA group that is found on BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC. It is mostly found among the mtDNA or older skeletons and mummies of certain people living on both sides of the Atlantic. The Iroquois and a few other Native American tribes carry this gene group, along with the Guanches, people living on the west coast of the British Isles and the Basques of Spain. None of this seems to point to Israel.

--------------------
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With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita
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« Reply #339 on: December 28, 2007, 04:10:00 pm »








Desiree

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Brig, Akhenaton did away with the worship of the entire pantheon of Egyptian gods (Osiris, Isis and the like) and made his kingdom worship the Aton, a single god. That's what makes monotheism.


quote:
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Desiree:

What do you think about these conclusions of the genetics?
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I'd say that you should have also printed the bottom of the article which mentions:


quote:
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A genetic study by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004 argues concerning certain exclusively North African haplotypes that "expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring population", and apparently that a specific Northwestern African haplotype, U6, probably originated in the Near East 30,000 years ago but has not been highly preserved and accounts for 6-8% in southern Moroccan Berbers, 18% in Kabyles and 28% in Mozabites. Rando et al. 1998 (as cited by [1]) "detected female-mediated gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa to NW Africa" amounting to as much as 21.5% of the mtDNA sequences in a sample of NW African populations; the amount varied from 82% (Touaregs) to 4% (Rifains). This north-south gradient in the sub-Saharan contribution to the gene pool is supported by Esteban et al.
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The point the article makes is that they aren't certain of the AfroAsiatic connection and that expansion of the lineage in North Africa took place exactly at the same time Plato sets Atlantis.
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« Reply #340 on: December 28, 2007, 04:17:23 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-29-2006 10:11 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
Really Jaime? Here's some convinicing genetic research that points to something was in the Atlantic at one time. Haplogroup X is a mysterious DNA group that is found on BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC. It is mostly found among the mtDNA or older skeletons and mummies of certain people living on both sides of the Atlantic. The Iroquois and a few other Native American tribes carry this gene group, along with the Guanches, people living on the west coast of the British Isles and the Basques of Spain. None of this seems to point to Israel.
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Great point, Neko!
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« Reply #341 on: December 28, 2007, 04:18:35 pm »








nekozuki

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He would have to do some convincing on how that DNA group got all the way across the Atlantic from Israel to East coast America. Why would they go out of their way in such a disaster? My point being Atlantis was in the Atlantic, nuff' said.

[ 03-30-2006, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: nekozuki ]

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« Reply #342 on: December 28, 2007, 04:19:47 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-29-2006 10:17 PM                       
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quote:
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To make a debate is very complex. I think that you already have in the head that is what had to be the Atlantis, independently of the solid and validated data that appears to you. Everybody we must accept the critic. I do not believe suitable to get angry because your ideas are questioned. Thus it is very difficult to analyze the data and to extract serious and solid conclusions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jamie, the only precoceived notions I have about Atlantis is that is was where Plato says it was: someplace in the Atlantic. I'm open to it being an advanced Neolithic culture, Bronze Age culture, even a mystical one like Cayce says, but I have to see some kind of evidence that it resembles Plato in the first place to call anything Atlantis. Sorry, there just isn't any resemblance to it in your work.


quote:
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Beyond your contemptuous attitude forehead the subject, the ritual sacrifice of the bull, that you with simplify describe so "bloody sacrifice", in the real anthropology, is essential to understand that culture treats and as they are his heirs, since "ancestor animal" of this culture. Elias Cannetti, Nobel Award, studied in detail the phenomenon of the animal ancestor in all its evolutionary process and its importance for all hunters cultures. And exactly in the region that indicated, they existed the wild Uros, as it also establishes it recognized and authorized J. Hawkes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is bull worship all over the Mediterranean, you can't just single out one place that has it and say it's Atlantis. It's like those red, white and black rocks that people mention cause Plato brings them up: they're everywhere, just like bull worship is. It is NOT a clue.


quote:
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And within those possibilities, they are "mysterious" Poeples of the Sea, that some investigators were the Atlantes, which is in my opinion a great error, which you share... Then, you want were the sailors of Atlantis? I, in the place that I indicated to him, development my explanations, also based on validated sources... I not still as the subject is your answer...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never said that the Sea People were Atlantis, just that they came along too late for them to have anything to do with your own particular theory. They don't, so why bring them up?


quote:
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And with respect to the latest that you have put, extracted of the "Atlantis was Israel" debate, I am not going to repeat the answer that are put in form detailed in that page... Here we are seeing the subject of Atlantic, not my theory... That discussion, if you want, we can do it in Atlantis was Israel...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You haven't said anything substantial to dispute the idea of Atlantis in the Atlantic other than you think Plato was mistaken, and, of course, offering your opinion that all the theories together and saying that they aren't scientific. Well, that is your opinion and you're entitled to it. But Atlantis in Israel bears no resemblance to anything Plato spoke about.


quote:
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I've seen the Piri Reis Map, it's so vague and speculative that it doesn't prove anything. Who knows? It might even be a forgery.

To the inverse one, exactly because it is not it, it is that it disturbs all... Also, like the works of Richard Sullivan and other important anthropologists and scientists, their geodesic analysis made by experts puts their center in the Middle East...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said earlier, I can't make head or tail out of that map, and I doubt many other people can either. Believe me, I wish it was evidence! Some people say it shows an ice free Antarctica, evidence of a pole shift, but I can't see that in there either.
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« Reply #343 on: December 28, 2007, 04:20:47 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-29-2006 10:21 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
He would have to do some convincing on how that DNA group got all the way across the Atlantic from Israel to East coast America. Why would they go out of their in such a disaster? My point being Atlantis was in the Atlantic, nuff' said.
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Fer sure, Neko! And if you look at the percentages, the DNA conection to the Middle East is pretty weak at best.

I once thought I saw something that DNA evidence links the Berbers, Basques and Guanches altogether, and that they're all unique to each other, but wasn't able to find the link at the moment. 
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« Reply #344 on: December 28, 2007, 04:21:44 pm »








nekozuki

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   posted 03-30-2006 06:16 AM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Desiree:

quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
He would have to do some convincing on how that DNA group got all the way across the Atlantic from Israel to East coast America. Why would they go out of their in such a disaster? My point being Atlantis was in the Atlantic, nuff' said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fer sure, Neko! And if you look at the percentages, the DNA conection to the Middle East is pretty weak at best.

I once thought I saw something that DNA evidence links the Berbers, Basques and Guanches altogether, and that they're all unique to each other, but wasn't able to find the link at the moment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't forget Eastern tribe native americans are part of that DNA group also, that is highly significant. They probably breed with the locals when they came
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