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ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)

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Author Topic: ATLANTIS & the Atlantic Ocean 1 (ORIGINAL)  (Read 8573 times)
Bianca
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« Reply #300 on: December 28, 2007, 02:32:15 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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I do not want to offend nobody, but the last writing rather seems the story of a police novel or science fiction.

I doubt that some military man or member of some intelligence service has some degree of interest by the subject and has some reason to hide an archaeological finding...

I have not dedicated myself to the subject, but until now, the only thing that I know about information reserve is related to sacking or robbery of archaeological pieces...

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree

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We're all entitled to our opinions, Jamie, that's what the whole point of having a forum is all about.
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« Reply #301 on: December 28, 2007, 02:33:58 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desirre:

II think just like you. All we must right to think. Only that I believe that this discussion must be a debate with more foundations, with demonstrable concrete data... That is my humble opinion...

Also I believe that is absurd to think that have not been rest archaeological at bottom of the Atlantic because there is a conspiracy that prevents it. Ballard, a recognized scientist, has been clear in relation to the subject. The recognized submarine explorer, who participated and headed several expeditions to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, was clear in his conclusions: "If the Atlantis were in some place to the west of Gibraltar, more than 20 years of exploration of the depths of the sea it would have revealed some indication of its sudden end (...) the Atlantis, if it existed, it was in another place".

To the inverse one, I believe that there are several investigators who refuse to accept the clear evidences because they already committed themselves with the subject. Also there are adventurers who have transformed it into a business and every certain time they invent evidences that cannot be proven, to maintain dynamic the subject in the press that them aid to have active their business.

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« Reply #302 on: December 28, 2007, 02:35:05 pm »








Desiree

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quote:
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Desirre:

II think just like you. All we must right to think. Only that I believe that this discussion must be a debate with more foundations, with demonstrable concrete data... That is my humble opinion...
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Hi Jamie, first off, I'm actually not out to convince anyone of anything. It seems to me that the evidence itself will be pretty convincing when it's found, no matter what location it's eventually found in, right..?

I define data as evidence, and, of course, we have it in the Atlantic: the Cuban site, Greg Little's work on the Bimini Road and the Andros Platform (both now confirmed to be manmade), and Dr. Maxine Asher's underwater work in the waters off of Cadiz. If you throw in this report (which I think sounds plausible anyway) and the reports of the Russians, who were said to find ruins at the Ampere Seamounts in 1978 and a report by Jeremy Hornick, who also may have found something in the Atlantic in 1973, there's actually a lot of evidence that something else might have existed there once.


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Also I believe that is absurd to think that have not been rest archaeological at bottom of the Atlantic because there is a conspiracy that prevents it. Ballard, a recognized scientist, has been clear in relation to the subject. The recognized submarine explorer, who participated and headed several expeditions to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, was clear in his conclusions: "If the Atlantis were in some place to the west of Gibraltar, more than 20 years of exploration of the depths of the sea it would have revealed some indication of its sudden end (...) the Atlantis, if it existed, it was in another place".
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Whoa! Who said anything about an archaeological conspiracy? I think the story I printed above mentioned submarines in the area of this find. Submarines are all over the Atlantic. Greg Little of the A.R.E Association has encountered them in his dives in Bimini, and the people who found the Cuban site ran into them, too, at the time of their find. That part of the story is very credible. Both the U.S. and Russian navies patrol the Atlantic.

As for Ballard, the Atlantic Ocean is the second largest ocean in the world and I don't think Ballard himself ever looked for Atlantis in it. In fact, no one really has. The Titanic was found in the North Atlantic, not even close to any of the places that Atlantis has been cited to be. It's a huge ocean and it simply isn't true that every part of it (or even I would say half) is known to us.

The geography of the ocean floor has been mapped, but not it's details. To see what is on the ocean floor, you actually have to be there, in a sub or something.


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To the inverse one, I believe that there are several investigators who refuse to accept the clear evidences because they already committed themselves with the subject. Also there are adventurers who have transformed it into a business and every certain time they invent evidences that cannot be proven, to maintain dynamic the subject in the press that them aid to have active their business.
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Not really, Plato is very specific about where Atlantis was! He's the one who puts it in the Atlantic Ocean, beyond the pillars and, even though you probably can't take him literally with every little detail, it makes sense to use him as a guide.

Like I said in another topic, the current issue of Atlantis Rising has all the latest details about Greg Little's findings off of Bimini. The pictures and details supplied are very convincing in that Bimini Road and Andros Platform were manmade and were ancient harbors (they even found 12 Phoenician style stone anchors there). You should check it out.
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« Reply #303 on: December 28, 2007, 02:36:04 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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That somebody finds anchors Phoenician only test that the old Semitics peoples arrived to America. Nothing else. In the personnel I maintain that these old peoples colonized America does about 7 thousand years. Without a doubt which there many more evidences are of and probably its will appear more in the future. Do you know the work of Richard Sullivan about paleo astronomy and religions knowledge? Do you know about the ruins of Caral?

With respect to Bimini, who demonstrated that the rock road is made by him man? All the evidences that I know say the opposite.

Also for me it is clear that the centres civilized of do 7 thousand years and were more in the Middle East and not in other places of the Earth.

With respect the contradictory thing that is to follow affirming that the Atlantis was in the Atlantic Ocean, I transcribe a text of Sarmast that seems very clear to me on him subject.



quote:
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 The records which the Egyptian priests gave to Solon was handed down religiously for nine thousand years (counting from 2,600 B.C.). That's 11,600 years ago.

The people who recorded the intricate details of the island must have been there to see it before it was taken out of view by the flood. That's obvious enough. This means that the original authors were living in prehistoric times by anyone's standard.

What should be kept in mind is that the original account never mentioned an "Atlantic Ocean" or a "Strait of Gibraltar," as you know. So, to say that the Pillars of Hercules and the Sea of Atlas are synonymous with the Strait of Gibraltar and the Atlantic Ocean is an assumption, not fact. These assumptions were made by Solon, Plato and numerous other parties ever since the original records were presented in Egypt, and later translated and heavily interpreted.

In short, to say that the pillar of Hercules is most definitely the Strait of Gibraltar is the same as saying that people living 11,600 years ago in the Near East not only were aware of the Gibraltar Strait but also had a name for it, and used it as a common point of reference! In other words, it would be like saying that prehistoric men knew what existed at the westernmost edge of the European continent, at a time when nothing remotely close to a civilization existed anywhere near the region.

We should bear in mind that the source of the Atlantis legend comes from the eastern Mediterranean, and that even in Solon's day travelling simply from Athens to Egypt was an adventure. We should also remember that if Atlantis was the source of all civilization, then its impact should be witnessed by surrounding lands that have the earliest signs of civilization. That's the Near and Middle East, not western Europe. Culture was imported to Europe in recent times, relatively speaking.

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Look about my theory here:
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001541;p=1

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« Reply #304 on: December 28, 2007, 02:36:59 pm »








Desiree

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Hi Jamie, I've read about Caral, haven't read Richard Sullivan. I think the point you're trying to make it, just because the Americas were colonized earlier than we thuink doesn't mean it has anything to do with Atlantis. Agreed! But just because Jericho and Catak Hoyuk date to about 7,000 bc doesn't mean that civlization started there either. There are even older finds out east, I also read here that they found a city in Morocco that dates to 15,000 bc. The older something is, the longer it will takre to find.


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With respect to Bimini, who demonstrated that the rock road is made by him man? All the evidences that I know say the opposite.
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Click, "home" on the top of this page and read the latest Atlantis PDF, which has all the new evidence that the Bimini Road was manmade. The people who said it wasn't artificial in the first place concealed, and didn't even look at the evidence.


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What should be kept in mind is that the original account never mentioned an "Atlantic Ocean" or a "Strait of Gibraltar," as you know. So, to say that the Pillars of Hercules and the Sea of Atlas are synonymous with the Strait of Gibraltar and the Atlantic Ocean is an assumption, not fact. These assumptions were made by Solon, Plato and numerous other parties ever since the original records were presented in Egypt, and later translated and heavily interpreted
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But Sarmast is forgetting that the Egyptians had a name for the Atlantic Ocean, "the Western Sea," and that most ancient accounts place the Pillars at the Straits of Gibraltar. But the main thing, we have (1) A very clear geographic description of the Mediterranean and it's relation to both the Pillars and Atlantic. (2) Several references to the Atlantic Ocean (3) Also if I remember correctly, a reference to Atlantis being close to Spain (Gades). All that seems to put it to the west. 
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« Reply #305 on: December 28, 2007, 02:38:11 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

There is another very powerful argument to put to the Atlantis in the Eastern Mediterranean and not in the Atlantic Ocean. The same disaster. This one happened so to a distance that it also affected the Greeks. If the Atlantis had been in Atlantic, and the catastrophe had also affected the Greeks, several thousands of kilometres, the disaster had to be of such magnitude that it geologic track would be still visible.

Which it is the "city" in Morocco that is 15 thousand years old? I do not know it. Archaeology indicates that the oldest city is Jericho, with 10000 BP.

Richard Sullivan in his book "The Secret of the Incas", says:


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 “From pyramids staggered of Babylonia to those of Palenque, and from the zodiac of Dendera to the Celestial Llama, tests of the existence not of a weak set of "beliefs" on further on, but a language are ubiquitous and very structured that reflects a penetrating understanding of the celestial mechanics, with the intention of drilling, to investigate, to know the destiny last the man. The best minds and the property of the archaic world were dedicated to this intention.” (Page 131)

"Eilade makes clear that in its opinion, that the" diffusion "of these ideas, was the result of an influence direct culture... Between these influences... we must admit... the Mesopotamics influences... Santillana and Dechend make a similar opinion... of "ancient" a source of Near East clear is from where come the slight knowledge relative to the three dominions, the seven or nine haven, a "pillar of the world", etc... (Page 130)

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These data on sciences astronomical old say to us with absolute clarity when these knowledge were generated and where it happened this. And this high knowledge is only possible in a high civilization that had stability per millennia. And this deep scientific knowledge were acquired and expanded by a civilization very developed in very old times, as it says Plato to us on the myth of the Atlantis.

And excuses me, about the Bimini findings, although Atlantisrising is an entertained magazine, but is not a validated scientific magazine. Thus humbly, I would like that you mentioned another source.
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« Reply #306 on: December 28, 2007, 02:39:02 pm »








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Jamie, at the time of Atlantis, say 11,600 or so years ago, maybe a bit more. It appears rather likely that human progress had reached some form of high; be it bronze age or better. Atlantis wasn't made and distroyed the same year. This progress, obviously existed, more or less, at all points where the marintine civilization of Atlantis touched. At that same time the Greeks were apparently nearly their equals and some sort of civilization must have existed in Egypt. So figuring that Atlantis was the ONLY point of civilization has gotta be a mistake. I'm sure many prehistoric peoples, at lest the educated of them, were well aware of the Pillars of Hercules, by whatever name they went by at the time; and the Atlantic ocean; whatever it may have been called back then. We are fairly certain that Atlantis had another name. Plato said he translated the names into their grecian equalivants. Either we take Plato at face value or we throw up our hands and say it was all fiction.As someone pointed out, Atlantis civilization was obviously over a large segment of the Earth. So Atlantis may be found all over;however the capital city of Atlantis will be in one spot as Plato discribed it. 
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« Reply #307 on: December 28, 2007, 02:40:15 pm »








Desiree

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There is another very powerful argument to put to the Atlantis in the Eastern Mediterranean and not in the Atlantic Ocean. The same disaster. This one happened so to a distance that it also affected the Greeks. If the Atlantis had been in Atlantic, and the catastrophe had also affected the Greeks, several thousands of kilometres, the disaster had to be of such magnitude that it geologic track would be still visible.
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Hi Jamie, the Carolina Bays was the catastrophe that Plato Was talking about, which is dated to almost exactly the same time as Plato sets Atlantis.

But as for the catastrophe destroying both the warriors of the war and Atlantis at the same time, Plato's text actually says:


quote:
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But
afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day
and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth,
and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the
sea.
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At first glance, it looks like Atlantis sunk in the same catastrophe, for all we know it didn't actually sink in the same day, but was more of a gradual sinking, which would make more sense!


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Which it is the "city" in Morocco that is 15 thousand years old? I do not know it. Archaeology indicates that the oldest city is Jericho, with 10000 BP.
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I actually have Jericho at 8,000 bc., but here is the article, originally posted by Atalante:


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Scientists unearth 15,000 year-old city in southern Morocco
Morocco, Local, 8/20/2004]

A team of Moroccan scientists have unearthed, near the southern city of Aousserd, remnants of a city, believed to be 15,000 years old and to belong to an ancient Amazigh civilization.

The ancient city "Arghilas" (cheetah) in Berber language was found by chance by a team of cartographers, reports Morocco's TV channel " 2M."

The region is rich in wall paintings tracing the history of prehistory humans who used to inhabit the Sahara. The team discovered columns that are likely the beams of the city's temple and in the other side of the city a collective necropolis surrounded by habitats.

These ancient buildings were found in a state of advanced decay due to weather erosion and human activities, 2M says.

The site is currently being studied by archeologists and authorities plan to make it available to geology students to gain insight on how ancient humans lived in the Sahara.
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http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/040820/2004082027.html

That could be the first proof that civilization actually started in the west, not the east! It could be that more archaeology has been found out east simply because more has been done.


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And excuses me, about the Bimini findings, although Atlantisrising is an entertained magazine, but is not a validated scientific magazine. Thus humbly, I would like that you mentioned another source.
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So you didn't even read it??
Not to be rude, Jamie, but facts are facts no matter what the source, we're posting at the Atlantis Rising website, and you yourself are investigating what 9/10ths of the scientific community considers the product of allegory. Don't you think you should have more of a open mind about it? 
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« Reply #308 on: December 28, 2007, 02:41:27 pm »








Ulf Richter

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Desiree,

You are certainly right, that more archaeological remnants from early times were found in the Near East because much more excavations were made there. In Morocco, however, nearly nothing was excavatrd up to day, and it seems, that governemental laws are prohibiting further research in the present time. So, we should not be astonished to find unexpected things there, eventually also remnants which we can date into the time, when Morocco was part of the Atlantean federation.

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« Reply #309 on: December 28, 2007, 02:42:24 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Desiree:

I am journalist and I know that the truth of the facts depends of the seriousness of the sources. The journalists know that there is source trustworthy and less trustworthy. And this case, the data are solid when there is certain agreement between the scientists. With respect to the scientists of the past, they lacked the modern technologies of investigation. Today its have appeared new data that its show to us that they were mistaken, and its can be dated all the archaeological discoveries correctly, thus many scientists have taken in serious the subject.

That is part of the problem of the seriousness of the investigation, because it appears many exotic or bizarre data to explain the existence of Atlantis in some Earth point. Examples: Sarmant believe to found cities to 1500 meters under the sea based on a pair of tectonic maps; others, from a natural disaster; or others from a rock that seems a map; others, a Bimini Stone road; others, to the peoples of the sea change their point of origin to them; others, raise that the translations of dates badly are done, or based on a pair of satellite photographies, Atlantis appear in Bolivia, etc. Or worse still, they appear absurd explanations with participation of extraterrestrial beings. Of course, soon the investigation is transformed into a business.

I was based my theory strictly in sources no questioned and I re processed all these validated data. Perhaps some are few knowing, but its are solid.

About the ancient city "Arghilas" (cheetah in Berber language), "It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said. That is to say, the dating is not validated, is a simple supposed, by now...

Jericho: 10,000 Before Present = 8000 Before Christ
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« Reply #310 on: December 28, 2007, 02:43:50 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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Brig:

In general, I agree with you. But it is obvious that the center was in Eastern Mediterranean (Egypt, Greece), where was emerging the civilization. I agree with you also in that naissance and finish of Atlantis it did not happen at same time. According to my conclusions, it was born 11,500 years ago and it finished 7.600 ago. That is to say, its evolution lasted almost 4 thousand years...

What yes it happened at the same time, in the story, was the destruction of the fleet of Atlantis that "attacked" Greece and the end the island Atlantis... Plato never mentioned two catastrophes separately. And so that it affected Greece and Atlantis at the same time and similarly way, its had to be relatively close the one to the other.

With respect to the Pillars of Hercules equal to Gibraltar, I do not believe that necessarily this civilization, that it sailed by the Eastern Mediterranean, the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, India and Sea of Arabia, was right practical to arrive until there. The axis of the emergent civilization was not in that region.

As it’s indicate the studies of Hawkes, the expansion of the peoples agriculturists by the Western Mediterranean happened only from beginning of the V millennium, post catastrophe.
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« Reply #311 on: December 28, 2007, 02:45:21 pm »








Jaime Manuschevich

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I do not have doubts that in all the coasts of the Mediterranean we will find many other rest archaeological. There, more ago than 12,500 years, the tasiense and capsiense culture existed (in Spanish), that extended by all the present coasts, plus the old coast, from Spain to Kenya. I could be seen in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture


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 The Capsian culture (named after the town of Gafsa) was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10000 BC to 6000 BC. It was concentrated mainly in modern Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, with some sites attested in Cyrenaica (Libya). It is traditionally divided into two variants (often contemporaneous): traditional Capsian, characterized by flake and blade tools, and upper Capsian, with a much greater variety of geometric microliths. Bone tools were also used, and shell beads and decorated objects were made. Capsian sites are typically accompanied by shell mounds and dark-colored ash deposits; some involve caves, while others are open-air. They are often near springs or passes.

During this period, the area's climate was open savannah, much like modern East Africa, with Mediterranean forests at higher altitudes. The Capsians' diet included a wide variety of animals - many no longer present in the area - ranging from aurochs and hartebeests to hares and snails; there is little evidence on what plants they ate.

Anatomically, the Capsians (to use a loose expression) were modern Homo sapiens, classed in two "racial" types: Mechta-Afalou and Protomediterranean. Some (eg Ferenbach 1985) have argued that they were immigrants from the east, whereas others (eg Lubell et al. 1984) argue for population continuity based on physical skeletal characteristics.

It was in the early Capsian period that the first domesticated sheep and goats appear in the area.

Nothing is known about Capsian religion, but their burial methods suggest a belief in an afterlife. Decorative art is widely found at their sites, including figurative and abstract rock art, and ocher is found coloring both tools and corpses. Ostrich eggshells were used to make beads and containers; seashells were used for necklaces. The Iberomaurusian practice of evulsion of the central incisors continued sporadically, but became rarer.

The Capsian culture is often identified by historical linguists as having brought the ancestor of the modern Berber languages to North Africa.

The Eburran culture of the 13th-8th millennia BC in Kenya is also termed the "Kenya Capsian", due to similarities in the stone blade shapes; it is unclear whether this culture is to be linked with the North African Capsian culture.


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Other antecedents of region:


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Prehistory of Central North Africa
The cave paintings found at Tassili-n-Ajjer, north of Tamanrasset, Algeria, and at other locations depict vibrant and vivid scenes of everyday life in the central Maghrib between about 8000 B.C. and 4000 B.C. They were executed by a hunting people in the Capsian period of the Neolithic age who lived in a savanna region teeming with giant buffalo, elephant, rhinoceros, and hippopotamus, animals that no longer exist in the now-desert area. The pictures provide the most complete record of a prehistoric African culture.

Earlier inhabitants of the central Maghrib have left behind equally significant remains. Early remnants of hominid occupation in North Africa, for example, were found in Ain el Hanech, near Saïda (ca. 200,000 B.C.). Later, Neandertal tool makers produced hand axes in the Levalloisian and Mousterian styles (ca. 43,000 B.C.) similar to those in the Levant. According to some sources, North Africa was the site of the highest state of development of Middle Paleolithic flake-tool techniques. Tools of this era, starting about 30,000 B.C., are called Aterian (after the site Bir el Ater, south of Annaba) and are marked by a high standard of workmanship, great variety, and specialization.

Neolithic cave paintings found in Tassil-n-Ajjer (Plateau of the Chasms) region of the SaharaThe earliest blade industries in North Africa are called Ibero-Maurusian or Oranian (after a site near Oran). The industry appears to have spread throughout the coastal regions of the Maghrib between 15,000 and 10,000 B.C. Between about 9000 and 5000 B.C., the Capsian culture began influencing the IberoMaurusian, and after about 3000 B.C. the remains of just one human type can be found throughout the region. Neolithic civilization (marked by animal domestication and subsistence agriculture) developed in the Saharan and Mediterranean Maghrib between 6000 and 2000 B.C. This type of economy, so richly depicted in the Tassili-n-Ajjer cave paintings, predominated in the Maghrib until the classical period.

The amalgam of peoples of North Africa coalesced eventually into a distinct native population that came to be called Berbers. Distinguished primarily by cultural and linguistic attributes, the Berbers, overshadowed by larger empires, tended to be overlooked or marginalized in historical accounts. Roman, Greek, Byzantine, and Arab Muslim chroniclers typically depicted the Berbers as "barbaric" enemies, troublesome nomads, or ignorant peasants. They were, however, to play a major role in the area's history.


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But they were a culture of fishermen, hunters and gatharer.

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« Reply #312 on: December 28, 2007, 02:46:24 pm »








nekozuki

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You do realize an advanced civilization in the Mediterranean is not Atlantis. Atlantis appears to be the nickname given to it because it was in the Atlantic Ocean. Which of course the Atlantis story was written down by Plato well after the Atlantic Ocean was named. This right here is more than enough evidence that he is placing it in the Atlantic.

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« Reply #313 on: December 28, 2007, 02:47:31 pm »








Desiree

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quote:
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Originally posted by nekozuki:
You do realize an advanced civilization in the Mediterranean is not Atlantis. Atlantis appears to be the nickname given to it because it was in the Atlantic Ocean. Which of course the Atlantis story was written down by Plato well after the Atlantic Ocean was named. This right here is more than enough evidence that he is placing it in the Atlantic.
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Damn right, Neko! People always seem to forget that little detail each time they try and place Atlantis outside of the Atlantic. Must be awfully inconvenient for them that he was so specific about the location. 
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« Reply #314 on: December 28, 2007, 02:48:31 pm »








Desiree

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   posted 03-27-2006 09:53 PM                       
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ulf Richter:
Desiree,

You are certainly right, that more archaeological remnants from early times were found in the Near East because much more excavations were made there. In Morocco, however, nearly nothing was excavatrd up to day, and it seems, that governemental laws are prohibiting further research in the present time. So, we should not be astonished to find unexpected things there, eventually also remnants which we can date into the time, when Morocco wqas part of the Atlantean federation.
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Fer sure, Ulf! I'll bet that there are a lot of ruins in both Spain & Morocco related to the Atlantean Empire! I think Plato mentions both as a part of it, which makes the idea of Atlantis in the Atlantic Ocean even more logical. If it was in the Mediterranean, why even mention those other places?

"Facing Gades?" I like Israel as much as the next person, but sorry, there's no way in the world it was "facing Gades."
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« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 03:26:55 pm by Bianca2001 » Report Spam   Logged

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